2022-2023 General Celtics thread

Euclis20

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Also in the "stuff Kerr believes" bucket: I'm pretty confident that the Warriors decided internally that the grindset required to hit 73-9 hurt them against the Thunder and Cavs, and never tried to do that again, even when the team upgraded to Durant.
Agreed, which makes it all the more remarkable what they did in 2017. 67 wins, 1st in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating, 3rd best net rating (+11.6) of all time, only behind the 96 and 97 Bulls. Amazing that they weren't even going 100% in the regular season (and it paid off when they went 16-1 in the playoffs).
 

benhogan

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I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Or, more likely, I'm a bad writer. Brogdon is a far better player and more deserving of Sixth Man of the Year. His stats prove it out. And even simpler, ask a Laker fan, coach, or executive if they'd prefer Brogdon on their team instead of Russ.

But there seems to be a Russ redemption narrative because he didn't complain about taking the bench roll and he's improved slightly from the beginning of the year.

Man, I want nothing to do with Russ! I was a Brogdon fan when he was with the Pacers and was psyched when the C's signed him.
Oh yea. I knew where you stood...I just find it hilarious that RWB is a slight favorite over MB to win 6th Man of the Year
 

HomeRunBaker

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Tatum and Stevens could be making excuses but they are both quoted talking about Tatum and/or the team being fatigued in the finals.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/celtics-jayson-tatum-says-fatigue-in-2022-nba-finals-inspired-him-to-change-his-diet-cut-out-fried-food/

This is from Stevens.

https://theathletic.com/3376949/2022/06/22/celtics-nba-finals-brad-stevens/

“When you start off 18-21, you’ve gotta fight, scratch and claw to get into the playoffs, get into the seeds, get home court … you’ve gotta do all that stuff, and there’s no margin for error,” said Stevens. “And as a result, you play a lot of minutes on the way. We’ve gotta start better next year. So, adding people that add to our group is, again, the major focus, however we do that.”
Of course….EVERYONE is fatigued in The Finals and playing more minutes against higher intensity defense. I get that. My point is that this wasn’t some team limping to the finish line or beat up in the prior two series…..if they were they wouldn’t have won 2 of the first 3 games of The Finals by double digits!

Did the Warriors not make adjustments after being down 2-1 that we didn’t counter and simply beat our asses? Why does it have to be something else like fatigue which the timeline doesn’t support?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Oh yea. I knew where you stood...I just find it hilarious that RWB is a slight favorite over MB to win 6th Man of the Year
I’m not the biggest Russ fan and certainly wouldn’t want him on this team with our personnel but he’s been pretty freakin good in his role on that team which needs exactly what he’s been giving coming off the bench.
 

benhogan

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I’m not the biggest Russ fan and certainly wouldn’t want him on this team with our personnel but he’s been pretty freakin good in his role on that team which needs exactly what he’s been giving coming off the bench.
We're talking about the 24-28 Lakers, right?

Get to .500 and maybe we can discuss their net negative bench being exactly what they need

This Award has been around for ~40yrs and I'd venture to guess that an under .500 team has never produced one
 

HomeRunBaker

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We're talking about the 24-28 Lakers, right?

Get to .500 and maybe we can discuss their net negative bench being exactly what they need

This Award has been around for ~40yrs and I'd venture to guess that an under .500 team has never produced one
Win/Loss isn’t really relevant with LeBron and Davis missing so many games. They are a middle of the pack playoff team, like a 5-6 seed with the three of them and Russ playing as he has in this role.
 

jmcc5400

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Win/Loss isn’t really relevant with LeBron and Davis missing so many games. They are a middle of the pack playoff team, like a 5-6 seed with the three of them and Russ playing as he has in this role.
I agree with this. I love to laugh at the Lakers as much as anyone, but I actually think it's not a team I'd love to face in the first round if healthy. Hopefully nagging injuries and the refs stealing games from them will keep them on the outside looking in.
 

benhogan

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Win/Loss isn’t really relevant with LeBron and Davis missing so many games. They are a middle of the pack playoff team, like a 5-6 seed with the three of them and Russ playing as he has in this role.
I know Vegas has him as the odds-on favorite but there are a dozen bench players across the NBA I'd rather have on my team than RWB (and so would the Lakers)
 

Fishy1

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Win/Loss isn’t really relevant with LeBron and Davis missing so many games. They are a middle of the pack playoff team, like a 5-6 seed with the three of them and Russ playing as he has in this role.
Davis has missed a lot of time, but Lebron has only missed ten games. That's not a small chunk of change, it's true, but he hasn't missed that many games.

I mean, if we're just talking about the award, fine, I guess I get what you're saying. And I wouldn't want to face them as an eight seed either.

But Win/Loss will certainly be relevant to them and to the award if neither of them can stay on the floor enough for the Lakers to make the playoffs. Their NetRTG is 24th in the league. Westrook was supposed to be a floor raiser -- was supposed to keep them afloat when Davis inevitably missed time -- but he hasn't really been that guy for them.

I think I'm trying to say is that he's no longer the guy he was four years ago in OKC, the guy who can drag a team to wins by sheer force of will. That's the guy they need. That guy isn't coming back.
 

Euclis20

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Win/Loss isn’t really relevant with LeBron and Davis missing so many games. They are a middle of the pack playoff team, like a 5-6 seed with the three of them and Russ playing as he has in this role.
They are 10-12 when both AD and Lebron play together this year (net rating of -0.4)), after going 11-11 when both guys were healthy last season (net rating of -1.1). I didn't bother seeing how many of those games were with Russ, as the one real positive thing you can say about him is that he's been healthy (just 7 games missed since the start of last season). The hilarious truth about the Lakers since the start of last year is that even when their big 2 (and Westbrook) play, they've been shockingly average. Maybe that's enough to get a 5-6 seed in the west given that they're just 3 games back, but let's not act like this team when healthy is even a lock to make the play in games.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Davis has missed a lot of time, but Lebron has only missed ten games. That's not a small chunk of change, it's true, but he hasn't missed that many games.

I mean, if we're just talking about the award, fine, I guess I get what you're saying. And I wouldn't want to face them as an eight seed either.

But Win/Loss will certainly be relevant to them and to the award if neither of them can stay on the floor enough for the Lakers to make the playoffs. Their NetRTG is 24th in the league. Westrook was supposed to be a floor raiser -- was supposed to keep them afloat when Davis inevitably missed time -- but he hasn't really been that guy for them.

I think I'm trying to say is that he's no longer the guy he was four years ago in OKC, the guy who can drag a team to wins by sheer force of will. That's the guy they need. That guy isn't coming back.
Yes, the discussion was about the Award. I don’t think anyone, including the Lakers, were expecting MVP Russ of OKC. If the Lakers, let’s just say LeBron and AD, remaining relatively healthy the rest of the way, make the playoffs which they surely will under those conditions, and Russ keeps putting up numbers never seen by a 6th man (yes I’m aware of the flaws), I’d fully expect the voters to check off his box. That’s all I’m saying in response to @benhogan finding it hilarious that he’s favored to win the award.

Maybe that's enough to get a 5-6 seed in the west given that they're just 3 games back, but let's not act like this team when healthy is even a lock to make the play in games.
If the 3 of them remain healthy they are pretty much a lock to make the playoffs without much trouble when you consider they have already been through both long EC trips and have a favorable schedule without all of those condensed games and travel.
 
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Van Everyman

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benhogan

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If the 3 of them remain healthy they are pretty much a lock to make the playoffs without much trouble when you consider they have already been through both long EC trips and have a favorable schedule without all of those condensed games and travel.
The Western Conf will be a nightly knife fight. Not many tankers to fatten up on.

Once the Warriors start caring, Kawhi/Paul start playing regularly, Booker is back, Zion & Ingram are healthy, KAT gets healthy & Dallas finds another star to pair with Luka.

That's 4-9 ahead of the Fakers. They are going to need more than perfect health (unless we count play-in games as the playoffs)
 

chilidawg

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Once the Warriors start caring, Kawhi/Paul start playing regularly, Booker is back, Zion & Ingram are healthy, KAT gets healthy & Dallas finds another star to pair with Luka.
What are the odds that even half those things happen? GS's problems may be deeper than caring. Zion healthy seems a dream. Where's Dallas going to find a star? And Minny is actually better without KAT.
 

benhogan

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What are the odds that even half those things happen? GS's problems may be deeper than caring. Zion healthy seems a dream. Where's Dallas going to find a star? And Minny is actually better without KAT.
each of those teams has similar excuses as the Lakers...

the chances of AD, Bron, and Russ being totally healthy for the next 30 games are pretty low
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The funny thing is, they had a ton of these blowouts down the stretch last year, and he still wore down in the playoffs.
Well, clearly, then, the best strategy for getting Tatum appropriate rest is to blow the shit out of everyone in the playoffs.

I should be a coach.
 

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Yes, the discussion was about the Award. I don’t think anyone, including the Lakers, were expecting MVP Russ of OKC. If the Lakers, let’s just say LeBron and AD, remaining relatively healthy the rest of the way, make the playoffs which they surely will under those conditions, and Russ keeps putting up numbers never seen by a 6th man (yes I’m aware of the flaws), I’d fully expect the voters to check off his box. That’s all I’m saying in response to @benhogan finding it hilarious that he’s favored to win the award.
I don’t disagree with any of this, but wouldn’t giving him the award because he took a reduced role after declining so much from his peak over Brogdon who took a reduced role not out of decline but to win be sorta like when incredibly beautiful actors and actresses get Oscar nomination nods just because they put on weight for a role?
 

nighthob

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The funny thing is, they had a ton of these blowouts down the stretch last year, and he still wore down in the playoffs.
The big change for Boston last year was that they went to a playoff rotation half way through the season. After four and a half months of playoff basketball they just wore out. Aside from Marcus no one's wired that way. I don't see it as a problem this year because the 9-11 spots are better this year and they added another effective player at the top of the rotation. If they can bring in someone like Barton or Richardson on the buyout market to take Hauser's minutes I think they roll.
 

DeadlySplitter

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The C's were down 1 entering the 4th quarter tonight, edging on coming all the way back from a 20 point 2nd-quarter deficit. Played a pretty damn good 3rd quarter overall. They gave Tatum 4 minutes off to start the quarter, pretty standard rest for your best player in that spot. Phoenix immediately went on like a 15-3 run with Jaylen "running" a backup unit and that was the game.

I know they're missing Smart but I feel like they should be doing better. After blasting these Suns to go to 21-5, they are a mortal 16-11 since.
 

Bunt4aTriple

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Was at the game tonight. After I think an 11-0 run early in the third, they had so many opportunities to take the lead or tie. Phoenix was sputtering. So frustrating.

From the cheap seats it looked like the suns (mostly cp3) were flopping a ton and getting the calls and the moving screen fouls weren't called as tightly for Phoenix. One in particular, Ayton looked like he needed a top hat and cane for all the tap dancing he was doing.
 

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“We just didn’t have the enthusiasm tonight,” forward Jaylen Brown said. “Just kind of going through the motions as a unit.”
 

Eddie Jurak

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Did the Warriors not make adjustments after being down 2-1 that we didn’t counter and simply beat our asses? Why does it have to be something else like fatigue which the timeline doesn’t support?
I would argue that these (fatigue and failure to counter adjustments) are not mutually exclusive.
 

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The C's were down 1 entering the 4th quarter tonight, edging on coming all the way back from a 20 point 2nd-quarter deficit. Played a pretty damn good 3rd quarter overall. They gave Tatum 4 minutes off to start the quarter, pretty standard rest for your best player in that spot. Phoenix immediately went on like a 15-3 run with Jaylen "running" a backup unit and that was the game.

I know they're missing Smart but I feel like they should be doing better. After blasting these Suns to go to 21-5, they are a mortal 16-11 since.
Mortal? Sure. But it’s worth noting that that .593 win% would still be good for the 4th seed in the East and the 3rd in the West.
 

bankshot1

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Even without Smart (who they miss in a big fucking way) there is no good reason they have lost so many games to teams with far lesser talent. While the D has gotten better with TL's return, and I hope that trnd continues, the offense sputters too often and ball movement ceases and we get Tatum or Brown playing 1 on 5 too often, court IQ has dropped, and the team looks directionless in too many games.

They are simply too talented to play under expectations for as long as they have.

I almost never point fingers at rookies,, they're supposed to make mistakes and piss on the carpet,
but at some point they learn to piss on the neighbor's lawn (and not in your house and Gaaaahden-sorry had to).

The (I) in CJM has been silent but may get more pronounced if the only trick he learns is to roll over and play dead.

Anyone see Interim?

Where did he go?
 

HomeRunBaker

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I would argue that these (fatigue and failure to counter adjustments) are not mutually exclusive.
So fatigue began to hit EXACTLY after a couple double digit wins and two days off between games? Hmmmm….sorry can’t buy that one.
 

Eddie Jurak

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So fatigue began to hit EXACTLY after a couple double digit wins and two days off between games? Hmmmm….sorry can’t buy that one.
I was say that fatigue left them more vulnerable to and less able to react to the effective adjustments made by Golden State.
 

radsoxfan

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Team is +9.5 with Tatum on, -3.7 pts/100 off. Huge difference. Keith is right, they need to figure out how to play without Tatum. Maybe more starters when he's off?
Certainly can understand Joe’s desire to have him out there 40+ per night.

They need to figure something out for sure, unfortunately Jaylen is just so much worse as a lead guy than when Tatum is solo without Jaylen.
 

Fishy1

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Certainly can understand Joe’s desire to have him out there 40+ per night.

They need to figure something out for sure, unfortunately Jaylen is just so much worse as a lead guy than when Tatum is solo without Jaylen.
Agreed . The team let's Jaylen lead the offense when he's out there without Tatum, and I get why, because they want him to get better at it, but he's miserable at it. He turns the ball over, tries to drive through obvious double-teams, and when he does make the right pass, it's often a second too late, which is an eternity in basketball. And then suddenly whatever lead they had is evaporated. Obviously sometimes he's great and gets three buckets in a row, but the man is afflicted with scoring tunnel-vision.

It seems miles better when Brogdon or White handle the ball next to Jaylen, fwiw, but even when they're both out there he leads the charge a lot of the time.
 

BaseballJones

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Agreed, which makes it all the more remarkable what they did in 2017. 67 wins, 1st in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating, 3rd best net rating (+11.6) of all time, only behind the 96 and 97 Bulls. Amazing that they weren't even going 100% in the regular season (and it paid off when they went 16-1 in the playoffs).
The three years the Dubs had from 14/15 through 16/17 was absolutely insane.

67-15, won NBA finals
73-9, lost NBA finals in 7 games after Draymond got tossed
67-15, won NBA finals

Of course they followed that up with two more NBA championship finals appearances, winning one of them. Five straight years they went to the Finals. But those three years: 207-39 (.841). Astounding.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Certainly can understand Joe’s desire to have him out there 40+ per night.

They need to figure something out for sure, unfortunately Jaylen is just so much worse as a lead guy than when Tatum is solo without Jaylen.
There's enough talent on this team that they ought to be able to figure it out.
 

HomeRunBaker

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My interpretation:

Jaylen, Luke and Rob will “probably” not be traded…..but we can’t yet be sure. :)
 

InstaFace

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If TimeLord gets traded, I will pull a Lebron in my living room. I will question why god has forsaken me.
And I would go outside to see whether the Sun is likely to still rise in the East, because I basically can't see that happening under almost any circumstances. On his current contract, TimeLord has major positive asset value, he's only being paid what he is because of the injury risk sustained in his rookie contract. $12M AAV is almost absurd value. You would need, like, Paolo Banchero on his rookie deal to get that kind of value in return.

I wouldn't sweat it.
 

Euclis20

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And I would go outside to see whether the Sun is likely to still rise in the East, because I basically can't see that happening under almost any circumstances. On his current contract, TimeLord has major positive asset value, he's only being paid what he is because of the injury risk sustained in his rookie contract. $12M AAV is almost absurd value. You would need, like, Paolo Banchero on his rookie deal to get that kind of value in return.

I wouldn't sweat it.
This is baffling to me given that TL has already missed 34 games this year, after missing 7 games in the the Celtics' playoff run last year (and being nowhere near 100% in the games that he did play), all after signing his extension. His contract is reasonable given his extremely high risk of injury, but it's just not a major positive asset given how much time he misses. Bill Simmons, noted hater of Celtics, didn't include him in his top 70 trade value a few days ago (though he was one of 13 in his "toughest omissions" list), while Banchero and his rookie deal were 15th out of 70.

You're right that it's unlikely he gets moved, because his variance makes it nearly impossible to get equivalent value (unless the trade involves a similar high risk/reward type of player). There's no way he's moves as part of a Durant deal, unless [impossibly] he's the centerpiece and not Jaylen.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If TimeLord gets traded, I will pull a Lebron in my living room. I will question why god has forsaken me.
I’d say it’s very unlikely as I’d guess he’d have trouble passing the acquiring teams physical. Tricky situation if Brad knows he’s damaged goods moving forward we can’t really move him.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I’d say it’s very unlikely as I’d guess he’d have trouble passing the acquiring teams physical. Tricky situation if Brad knows he’s damaged goods moving forward we can’t really move him.
Not that tricky, given his low salary for the on court value he brings. He doesn't need to be in full health to provide a positive return on that.