2022-23 NBA Game Thread

benhogan

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I remember reading that his wife wanted to live in Brentwood full time and that was a big factor.
one more reason to play in another city? just kidding

the weather here is off the charts, 72 & sunny on XMas day. plus LA anonymity for celebs is a factor for these families

One really bad GMing Summer (driven by Bron/Klutch IMO) spoiled it.

I wouldn't be shocked if Bron traded himself out of LA next season to a contender (return to the LAND?). His ultimate aim is to eventually get that Las Vegas franchise with FSG.
 

PedroKsBambino

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His desire for Bronny to play for an elite HS program, and be close to him, is a big factor for him I'd imagine....that doesn't require LA but it's on the short list of options, and combines with all the other benefits I'd imagine.

I personally beleive his recent extension is primarily about Bronnie.
 

benhogan

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Hard to believe a team with Alex Rodriguez in an executive role would make a bad decision, isn't it?

The one thing I would say not so much in TWolves defense as part of their thinking is that as a cold-weather, small-market team with no history (e.g. about the worst combo in the league) they need to take shots when they can. So, while they took the WRONG shot in a likely-ruinous way I do think trying to take advantage of a KAT/Edwards starting core while they could is defenseableconceptually. How they did it...total mess. As Zach Lowe has noted, they'd hvae been much better off trading a smaller package for Dejounte Murray. If they did that, perhaps they look for a defensive-oriented 4 (or just play the one they traded to get Gobert) and have a far more sensible rotation.

I don't know what path they have at this point---KAT for Trae Young has been rumored, and I doubt Hawks do it. Even so, does that even work, really? It's a better fit than KAT-Gobert but there's little evidence Trae is going to be part of a real winning team, and you worry about him getting along wtih Gobert (and how ANT will feel about never getting the ball). You can't really get better trading ANT. And you can't get enough for Gobert to justify it, I don't think. I guess you just play it out at least this year and hope?
Cold, small-market, Lilly white with recent race issues makes it a really rough NBA spot. They had all that Play-In Magic from last season and punted those vibes away. There are better NBA cities and it wouldn't shock me if moving them is part of ARod/Lore's strategy

https://www.axios.com/2022/08/25/city-of-the-future-neom-telosa-lore-mbs

I suspect Minnesota will play it out since the returns would make their GM look like a buffoon. Maybe they point to Boston's double BIG 2nd half last season as a road map???

I'm not sure we have seen a trade get so universally panned from DAY 1 and go sour so quickly. It's quite remarkable in this day and age.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It will be interesting to see if the Vegas franchise forces LeBron to retire a year or two sooner than he normally would (he easily has another 4-5 years if he chooses to play and his health allows). At this point we’d have to assume he’s going to play somewhere with Bronnie for at least one year and the NBA media deals are set to expire following the ‘24-‘25 season. I wonder how expansion will play into them and how soon.
 

lovegtm

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Hard to believe a team with Alex Rodriguez in an executive role would make a bad decision, isn't it?

The one thing I would say not so much in TWolves defense as part of their thinking is that as a cold-weather, small-market team with no history (e.g. about the worst combo in the league) they need to take shots when they can. So, while they took the WRONG shot in a likely-ruinous way I do think trying to take advantage of a KAT/Edwards starting core while they could is defenseableconceptually. How they did it...total mess. As Zach Lowe has noted, they'd hvae been much better off trading a smaller package for Dejounte Murray. If they did that, perhaps they look for a defensive-oriented 4 (or just play the one they traded to get Gobert) and have a far more sensible rotation.

I don't know what path they have at this point---KAT for Trae Young has been rumored, and I doubt Hawks do it. Even so, does that even work, really? It's a better fit than KAT-Gobert but there's little evidence Trae is going to be part of a real winning team, and you worry about him getting along wtih Gobert (and how ANT will feel about never getting the ball). You can't really get better trading ANT. And you can't get enough for Gobert to justify it, I don't think. I guess you just play it out at least this year and hope?
I totally agree that taking a shot and dealing picks to do so is the way to go for such a franchise.

The problem is that that should make you more inclined to do smaller deals, for 1-2 1sts, or a 1st + a swap, since you have real talent under contract and need to complement it.

Boston has done a great job of this, spending one mid-1st and two low 1sts to get Horford, White, and Brogdon, while also making those picks be in consecutive years so as not to trigger Stepien.

Minny paid a high 1st for Russell. That pick alone is probably worth more than the 3 Boston sent out for Horford/White/Brogdon, while getting a player who is worse (imo) than any of them. Then they paid the 4 1sts for Gobert, one of which already looks like it could be a lottery pick in the Wembanyana year.

But wait, there's more! Because they sent all those picks out, they have Stepien issues, and can't deal remaining picks until draft day the next few years, making it even harder to get complementary help, Boston style. And they compounded things by sending Utah useful role players.

Tldr; the Celtics' strategy (1sts for complementary players under contract) was very available to the Wolves, and the Celtics' current team was built basically without free agency. The Wolves aren't victims because they're in Minnesota; they're a poorly-run franchise with a horrible front office that is squandering elite drafted talent and copious draft capital.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I totally agree that taking a shot and dealing picks to do so is the way to go for such a franchise.

The problem is that that should make you more inclined to do smaller deals, for 1-2 1sts, or a 1st + a swap, since you have real talent under contract and need to complement it.

Boston has done a great job of this, spending one mid-1st and two low 1sts to get Horford, White, and Brogdon, while also making those picks be in consecutive years so as not to trigger Stepien.

Minny paid a high 1st for Russell. That pick alone is probably worth more than the 3 Boston sent out for Horford/White/Brogdon, while getting a player who is worse (imo) than any of them. Then they paid the 4 1sts for Gobert, one of which already looks like it could be a lottery pick in the Wembanyana year.

But wait, there's more! Because they sent all those picks out, they have Stepien issues, and can't deal remaining picks until draft day the next few years, making it even harder to get complementary help, Boston style. And they compounded things by sending Utah useful role players.

Tldr; the Celtics' strategy (1sts for complementary players under contract) was very available to the Wolves, and the Celtics' current team was built basically without free agency. The Wolves aren't victims because they're in Minnesota; they're a poorly-run franchise with a horrible front office that is squandering elite drafted talent and copious draft capital.
I agree with almost all of that (and don't think at all inconsistent with my post). As you note, what they did well was hit on a couple high draft picks---and they've blown the enormous benefit of doing so by doing pretty much everything else wrong.

I do think there's a pretty good case for "going for it" on a big trade if you can get to be a contender through that trade, rather than building more gradually with smaller deals IF you have no chance of keeping/attracting talent. This is where Minny and Boston differ. So taking a shot was defensible---the shot they took, and many moves around it (as you note) were not

As an aside, the Russell deal was a different front office and ownership group than the Gobert trade...though both were bad.
 
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Kliq

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I don't know if Bronny James is really an NBA player. Him coming in as a raw prospect and soaking up minutes playing with LeBron would be really bizarre.

His younger son, Bryce, may have more NBA potential despite not being allegedly as interested in basketball as Bronny. He has as physical profile closer to LeBron (6'6" at 15, wide shoulders) but is supposedly very raw. Windhorst was on a podcast earlier this year and said that Bronny possesses LeBron's drive and love for basketball, but Bryce has the physical talent.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Grant has been told to clear out his desk, with Watanabe moving into the Corner Office at 70%!

TJ Warren is back to being a bucket. The Nets look beastly on offense

I'm hacking Claxton/Simmons whenever they hit the floor. They've only taken 2 FTs tonight, come on JB.
Nets have been 16-3 since November 17 with (according to this article) the best offensive rating in the league, the ninth-best defensive rating in the league, and the second-best net rating. Maybe a team can obviate having two non-scorers on the floor at the same time if they have KD and KI and then TJ Warren. Also, from what I am reading (did not see the game), Simmons' defense on Giannis and Mitchell was pretty key in getting BRK their last two victories.

Speaking of Simmons, some writer did an in-depth look at Simmons here - https://sircharlesincharge.com/2022/12/27/brooklyn-nets-best-team-dangerous/ - and compared his numbers to his last PHI season. Interesting chart copied below.

Not convinced any of this will work in the playoffs when teams have a chance to game plan but as for now, seems like BRK has a road to success.

59419
 

Kliq

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The Nets have played really well for the past month or so. All they need to do is to keep it up for the next six months, without any injuries, suspensions or weird team chemistry issues getting in the way.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Hard to believe a team with Alex Rodriguez in an executive role would make a bad decision, isn't it?

The one thing I would say not so much in TWolves defense as part of their thinking is that as a cold-weather, small-market team with no history (e.g. about the worst combo in the league) they need to take shots when they can. So, while they took the WRONG shot in a likely-ruinous way I do think trying to take advantage of a KAT/Edwards starting core while they could is defenseableconceptually. How they did it...total mess. As Zach Lowe has noted, they'd hvae been much better off trading a smaller package for Dejounte Murray. If they did that, perhaps they look for a defensive-oriented 4 (or just play the one they traded to get Gobert) and have a far more sensible rotation.

I don't know what path they have at this point---KAT for Trae Young has been rumored, and I doubt Hawks do it. Even so, does that even work, really? It's a better fit than KAT-Gobert but there's little evidence Trae is going to be part of a real winning team, and you worry about him getting along wtih Gobert (and how ANT will feel about never getting the ball). You can't really get better trading ANT. And you can't get enough for Gobert to justify it, I don't think. I guess you just play it out at least this year and hope?
It would be a classic sell-low situation for MIN to trade Gobert after not even one season but who knows? The sane thing is to realize that MIN has been hit with a lot of injuries (Gobert and KAT have only played like 16 games together) and Edwards is still trying to figure out how to play with bigs. This article - https://dunkingwithwolves.com/2022/12/23/are-the-minnesota-timberwolves-actually-better-without-rudy-gobert/ - notes that Edwards plays best on offense with one big, and that big is Naz Reid, which obviously opens up the floor for him (although according to this article, MIN has rebounding issues that are exacerbated when Reid is on the floor).

I'll also note that for all of the grief Mitchell got for not passing Gobert the ball, Edwards (as of mid-November) only passed the ball to Edwards four times out of 125 PnRs.

It will be interesting to see if these are growing pains or structural issues. I know Danny is hoping for the latter. :cool:
 

PedroKsBambino

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Also, pretty much none of Minny's guys have much of a rep as teammates or team players, right? Gobert probably has the worst rep as a teammate of any top-25ish guy. KAT seems amiable, but rumor of selfishness and number-chasing have been there. ANT is a new product, but no one is going to confuse his orientation with Marcus Smart, or least has to date. Russell has some fans (like KAT) but is a mixed bag on the court and in terms of winning play. It's just a messy mix of guys. Lot of pressure on Chris Finch to make all those pieces fit...
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't know if Bronny James is really an NBA player. Him coming in as a raw prospect and soaking up minutes playing with LeBron would be really bizarre.

His younger son, Bryce, may have more NBA potential despite not being allegedly as interested in basketball as Bronny. He has as physical profile closer to LeBron (6'6" at 15, wide shoulders) but is supposedly very raw. Windhorst was on a podcast earlier this year and said that Bronny possesses LeBron's drive and love for basketball, but Bryce has the physical talent.
No 17-year old is an NBA player but he certainly has the athleticism to develop into one. Bronny could be hindered by his lack of height which I’d say right now limits his ceiling. He’s probably in that group of 20-25 in his class who could go either way and most will ultimately fail to make it. He does have the advantage in that unlike some he will undoubtedly have every opportunity to develop.
 

Kliq

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No 17-year old is an NBA player but he certainly has the athleticism to develop into one. Bronny could be hindered by his lack of height which I’d say right now limits his ceiling. He’s probably in that group of 20-25 in his class who could go either way and most will ultimately fail to make it. He does have the advantage in that unlike some he will undoubtedly have every opportunity to develop.
I did some number crunching last year and looked at prospects ranked in the 40s/50s of each draft class and tried to see how many went on to relevant NBA careers, there are only like 1-2 per year basically. It's unclear how honest Bronny's ranking is, of course he is the most famous high school player in the country with a ton of attention on him. It's very unlikely that if he is ever an NBA player, he will be in only one-or-two years, which seems like the most likely way he will ever play with LeBron, unless LeBron plays until he is 45.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I did some number crunching last year and looked at prospects ranked in the 40s/50s of each draft class and tried to see how many went on to relevant NBA careers, there are only like 1-2 per year basically. It's unclear how honest Bronny's ranking is, of course he is the most famous high school player in the country with a ton of attention on him. It's very unlikely that if he is ever an NBA player, he will be in only one-or-two years, which seems like the most likely way he will ever play with LeBron, unless LeBron plays until he is 45.
Yes people don’t realize how low the pct of players actually make it in the NBA. Look at how few end up being #1 picks…..then look at how few outside of top half of the lottery even make it. The odds are stacked against Bronny but as I said above, it comes down to opportunity and number of opportunities sometimes. He’s going to get them. If Austin Rivers was the son of a steel worker in Pittsburgh he never gets a second NBA contract. If Bronny can show that he can physically, and mentally, compete at this level he’ll have these same opportunities as Austin did in playing for his Dad which resurrected his career.
 

Kliq

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Yes people don’t realize how low the pct of players actually make it in the NBA. Look at how few end up being #1 picks…..then look at how few outside of top half of the lottery even make it. The odds are stacked against Bronny but as I said above, it comes down to opportunity and number of opportunities sometimes. He’s going to get them. If Austin Rivers was the son of a steel worker in Pittsburgh he never gets a second NBA contract. If Bronny can show that he can physically, and mentally, compete at this level he’ll have these same opportunities as Austin did in playing for his Dad which resurrected his career.
Rivers was the top recruit in his class though. Being Doc's son certainly got eyeballs on him at first, but he was widely regarded as top NBA prospect and they don't just do that because you have a famous father. I'd say having that pedigree as a prep player gave teams more confidence that he could eventually turn into an NBA player than just being Doc's son did.
 

Euclis20

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The Nets have played really well for the past month or so. All they need to do is to keep it up for the next six months, without any injuries, suspensions or weird team chemistry issues getting in the way.
That should be enough to get them to a top 4 seed, but they've got two sub 50% FT shooters in their starting lineup. How on earth does that hold up in the playoffs? Simmons and Claxton will have to be pulled in every 4th quarter, they'll basically need Kyrie/Durant to score 30+ each game.
 

benhogan

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That should be enough to get them to a top 4 seed, but they've got two sub 50% FT shooters in their starting lineup. How on earth does that hold up in the playoffs? Simmons and Claxton will have to be pulled in every 4th quarter, they'll basically need Kyrie/Durant to score 30+ each game.
Yea, not fouling Ben/Clax is coaching malpractice when the other scoring options are a hot Kyrie/KD.

You put those two bricklayers on the FT line every trip down from the tip and make KD/Kyrie potted plants on offense

It's been over a month since Ben Simmons has sunk a FT, not sure what these HCs are doing while the Nets offense has been en Fuego in December. Maybe Jacque Vaughan doesn't play those two when they get into the penalty? I don't watch them enough to know
 
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The Raptors' struggles continue. Toronto, at home, down big to the Clippers.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Morant sitting at 32 entering the fourth after going for a career high 22 points in a quarter in the third. Suns are up 97-80 so Ja should get a lot more shots up.

Edit: The Grizzlies proceed to allow a depleted Suns rotation to outhustle them and blow the game wide open. Too late for Ja to do it all himself - he had no support tonight. They may not be ok in the West.
 
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Just a bit outside

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Dallas going to overtime with the Knicks after a crazy comeback concluding with Luka missing a free throw on purpose and then getting a putback 10 footer with 1 second left.
 

Kliq

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Big night for the MVP candidates across the league. Doncic putting up a crazy stat line. Embiid with 48 points, Tatum with 39, and the Nuggets without Jokic look awful.
 

Euclis20

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Big night for the MVP candidates across the league. Doncic putting up a crazy stat line. Embiid with 48 points, Tatum with 39, and the Nuggets without Jokic look awful.
Luka finished with 61/20/10, a line that only he (and maybe Jokic) could dream of. Hard to give Embiid too much credit tonight, despite his crazy numbers (and positive +/-) the sixers lost to the thoroughly mediocre wizards, snapping a nice 8 game winning streak for philly.
 

Euclis20

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He dragged the entire Mavs roster back to a win. That was a statement-type performance for MVP voters, right?
I think if Luka gets the Mavs to a top 4 finish in the west, he's the favorite.

If the Mavs get him an all-star caliber running mate who fits (i.e. is a plus defensively and doesn't dominate the ball), they'll be a legit title contender.
 

Marciano490

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I miss watching the World Cup and being able to smell the cigs and beer through the tv with some guys. Glad Luka brings that vibe to a big 4 sport.
 

jon abbey

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He dragged the entire Mavs roster back to a win. That was a statement-type performance for MVP voters, right?
I mean, no Brunson or Barrett for NY, and the two NY guards had career highs in points (Grimes-33) and assists (Quickley-15), before collapsing because Thibs played his top 3 guards 51, 48 and 46 minutes while playing Rose just 12 minutes and Reddish 0 again.

So, very impressive game but a lot of context needed IMO.
 

Cellar-Door

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I mean, no Brunson or Barrett for NY, and the two NY guards had career highs in points (Grimes-33) and assists (Quickley-15), before collapsing because Thibs played his top 3 guards 51, 48 and 46 minutes while playing Rose just 12 minutes and Reddish 0 again.

So, very impressive game but a lot of context needed IMO.
Literally nobody has ever done it, NOBODY, not even Wilt who was 7'2" playing against 5'8" asthmatic gym teachers. going for 60/20/10 against an NBA opponent is insanity.
 

luckiestman

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I miss watching the World Cup and being able to smell the cigs and beer through the tv with some guys. Glad Luka brings that vibe to a big 4 sport.
2 of the 3 best guys in the Association look like their best sport should be pinball
 

Euclis20

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I didn't catch the Lakers/Magic game, but thought the contrast in height was fascinating. The average of the Lakers 5 was 6'5, vs an average of 6'9 for the Magic, yet the Lakers were +9 in rebounding.
 

terrynever

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Finished catching up on last nights action. So much to digest in those final 44 seconds. It wasn’t only Doncic making plays but Wood and Dinwiddie with deep wing 3’s while the former contested position against Randle on the intentional FT miss to begin the ping pong ball action. NBA teams were 0-13,884 in the last 20 seasons when trailing by at least nine with 35 or fewer seconds remaining…….we don’t need any additional context to downplay what the Mavs accomplished. Historic.

I had been “hyping” up the Wiz in the gambling thread since the return of Beal to the lineup and they got a big win last night…..but at a cost. Beal quietly exited the game after a foul late as the game was being secured. If you look closely at the replay he grabs his hammy and upon exit throws his mouthpiece/gum in frustration as he headed back to the locker room. The Wiz had pulled to within 3.5 games of the division lead but if they lose Beal for any length of time they are done.
 

Euclis20

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I mean, no Brunson or Barrett for NY, and the two NY guards had career highs in points (Grimes-33) and assists (Quickley-15), before collapsing because Thibs played his top 3 guards 51, 48 and 46 minutes while playing Rose just 12 minutes and Reddish 0 again.

So, very impressive game but a lot of context needed IMO.
These are good reasons why the Mavs shouldn't feel great about the game, but none of this diminishes Luka's unbelievable numbers.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Finished catching up on last nights action. So much to digest in those final 44 seconds. It wasn’t only Doncic making plays but Wood and Dinwiddie with deep wing 3’s while the former contested position against Randle on the intentional FT miss to begin the ping pong ball action. NBA teams were 0-13,884 in the last 20 seasons when trailing by at least nine with 35 or fewer seconds remaining…….we don’t need any additional context to downplay what the Mavs accomplished. Historic.

I had been “hyping” up the Wiz in the gambling thread since the return of Beal to the lineup and they got a big win last night…..but at a cost. Beal quietly exited the game after a foul late as the game was being secured. If you look closely at the replay he grabs his hammy and upon exit throws his mouthpiece/gum in frustration as he headed back to the locker room. The Wiz had pulled to within 3.5 games of the division lead but if they lose Beal for any length of time they are done.
No Ewing Effect upcoming? Getting more looks for Morris and Kispert, and more minutes to a guy like Goodwin (who I think can be a player, but I guess we'll find out) might be interesting. I know Beal has been shooting better than he has in a while, but he's still pretty bad on defense.
 

HomeRunBaker

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No Ewing Effect upcoming? Getting more looks for Morris and Kispert, and more minutes to a guy like Goodwin (who I think can be a player, but I guess we'll find out) might be interesting. I know Beal has been shooting better than he has in a while, but he's still pretty bad on defense.
It could be if teams relax. We’ve seen two stretches without Beal and this team competes nearly every night. Their problem is that he’s one of their few shot creators and a real good one at that. Once he went down a 4:00 to go the Wiz really struggled getting good looks down the stretch. As an aside, Gafford really did a great job on Embiid and is quickly figuring out this league and how to consistently give effort. He’s going to be one of those “surprise” contracts that leave every saying “WTF” but he’s a keeper.
 

benhogan

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No Ewing Effect upcoming? Getting more looks for Morris and Kispert, and more minutes to a guy like Goodwin (who I think can be a player, but I guess we'll find out) might be interesting. I know Beal has been shooting better than he has in a while, but he's still pretty bad on defense.
Delon Wright could help with that Ewing Effect. He brings some perimeter D that Brad doesn't offer
 

luckiestman

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That’s an all time cheap shot. Can’t tell if Wagner goes out. I thought he did at first but reverse angle shows someone wrapping him and that guy could have pulled him down. So, I think it was a ko but I’m not sure.

Edit: watching again at 2:29 I think he is out for the count from the overhead angle
 

Mooch

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Honestly, that’s got to be a multiple game suspension for Hayes. Wagner’s play was certainly dirty but that shot to the back of the head was pure assault.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Hayes is likely to sit for a while - multiple games of course - and its probably a hefty fine too.

It looks like Wagner threw a shoulder but in the current NBA, collisions like that happen fairly often. Maybe its wrong but Hayes probably isn't helping his career prospects, especially since he has yet to do much in the league. Besides sucker punch Moe Wagner.