2022 Hall of Fame Class

E5 Yaz

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COOPERSTOWN, N.Y. -- Gil Hodges, Roger Maris and Minnie Miñoso are among 10 men on the ballot of the Golden Days Era committee for baseball's Hall of Fame.
Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Jim Kaat, Tony Oliva, Billy Pierce and Maury Wills also are on the ballot along with former Pittsburgh manager Danny Murtaugh, the Hall said Friday.
The vote by the 16-person committee, whose members will be announced later, is scheduled for Dec. 5 at the winter meetings in Orlando, Florida.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32560648/gil-hodges-roger-maris-minnie-minoso-10-hall-fame-committee-ballot
 

grimshaw

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Dick Allen belongs in the Hall IMO. He had too short a career for eye popping cumulative stats, but he slashed .292/.378/.534 with a wRC+ 155 which is 12th all time right in between Mel Ott and Willie Mays. Highest slugging and wOBA ever for a 3b, though he only played 4 1/2 seasons there.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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Still convinced it's going to be nobody. Need to see how well A-Rod and Ortiz do in the first ballot to gauge their chances of getting in eventually.
It's kind of a bummer that we're not going to see an uncomplicated, uncontroversial first-ballot induction until Adrian Beltre in 2024 (and then Ichiro the following year). I don’t think any of the small committee candidates make it, either, until Fred McGriff, whatever year that is.

EDIT: Buck O’Neil has a shot, didn’t realize he was on there.
 
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gryoung

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Dick Allen belongs in the Hall IMO. He had too short a career for eye popping cumulative stats, but he slashed .292/.378/.534 with a wRC+ 155 which is 12th all time right in between Mel Ott and Willie Mays. Highest slugging and wOBA ever for a 3b, though he only played 4 1/2 seasons there.
Dick “don’t call me Richie” Allen hit the hardest home run I ever saw at Fenway. As observed from the bleachers, the ball went from bat into the left field netting in about a second and was still rising when it hit.
 

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Here's the entire list of candidates announced on the Baseball Hall of Fame page.

The 10 candidates for Early Baseball Era consideration for the Class of 2022:

• Bill Dahlen spent 21 seasons in the majors from 1891-1911, playing almost 90 percent of his games at shortstop, compiling a .272 batting average with 84 home runs and 1,234 RBI. He scored 100 or more runs in each of his first six seasons and recorded 120-or-more hits 15 times. He retired in 1911 as the active home run leader with 84 and as the all-time leader in games played (2,444).

• John Donaldson pitched in the Negro Leagues and pre-Negro Leagues for more than 30 years, earning a reputation as one of the best pitchers in the game. Also playing the outfield and managing, Donaldson helped establish the barnstorming business model that was profitable for Black teams for decades.

• Bud Fowler is often acknowledged as the first Black professional baseball player, having pitched and played second base for teams in more than a dozen leagues throughout his career. After spending part of his youth in Cooperstown, Fowler grew up to excel on the diamond and later helped form the successful Page Fence Giants barnstorming team.

• Vic Harris played 18 seasons in the Negro Leagues, primarily as a left fielder for the legendary Homestead Grays. He compiled a .305 career batting average and was known as one of the most aggressive base runners in the Negro National League. Harris also managed the Grays for 11 seasons, winning seven Negro National League pennants and the 1948 World Series.

• Grant “Home Run” Johnson was a shortstop and second baseman in the pre-Negro Leagues era who helped form the Page Fence Giants barnstorming team. A powerful hitter and occasional pitcher, Johnson played for early powerhouse teams like the Brooklyn Royal Giants and New York Lincoln Giants.

• Lefty O’Doul played for 11 seasons with the Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, Phillies and Dodgers, winning two National League batting titles. He compiled a .349 career batting average, fourth-best in AL/NL history. After his playing days, O’Doul managed in the Pacific Coast League and was credited with more than 2,000 victories. In 1932, O’Doul and other players traveled to Japan, where they instructed college students on the intricacies of the game. He returned to Japan several more times throughout the decade and then multiple times after World War II, becoming a beloved figure in the history of Japanese baseball.

• Buck O’Neil played 10 seasons with the Memphis Red Sox and Kansas City Monarchs of the Negro American League and was named to three All-Star Games. Following his playing career, O’Neil became a scout for the Chicago Cubs and later became the first Black coach in AL or NL history with Chicago. Scouting for teams for much of the rest of his career, O’Neil became a beloved ambassador for the game who helped found the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City.

• Dick “Cannonball” Redding was regarded as perhaps the fastest pitcher in Negro Leagues history, hurling for teams such as the Lincoln Giants, Chicago American Giants and the Brooklyn Royal Giants. Credited with multiple no-hitters, Redding was also a successful manager with the Royal Giants.

• Allie Reynolds was 182-107 over 13 years with the Indians and Yankees, with six All-Star team selections. He led his teams to six World Series titles, going 7-2 with a 2.79 ERA. He twice finished in the Top 3 of the American League’s Most Valuable Player Award voting.

• George “Tubby” Scales played 20 seasons in the Negro Leagues as an infielder, compiling a .319 batting average and .421 on-base percentage. He also managed for six seasons in the Negro Leagues and 12 seasons in the Puerto Rican Winter League, leading the Santurce Cangrejeros to the Caribbean World Series title in 1951.

The 10 candidates for Golden Days Era consideration for the Class of 2022:

• Dick Allen played 15 seasons from 1963-77 for five teams, spending nine seasons with the Phillies, compiling 351 home runs, 1,119 RBI and a .292 career average. He was named the 1972 AL Most Valuable Player and the 1964 NL Rookie of the Year, with seven career All-Star selections.

• Ken Boyer played 15 seasons as a third baseman with the Cardinals, Mets, White Sox and Dodgers, earning 11 All-Star Game selections and winning the 1964 National League Most Valuable Player Award en route to leading the Cardinals to a World Series championship.

• Gil Hodges was named to eight All-Star Games in an 18-year big league career as a first baseman with the Dodgers and Mets, winning three Gold Glove Awards and leading the Dodgers to seven National League pennants and two World Series titles. As a manager, Hodges led the 1969 Miracle Mets to the World Series title.

• Jim Kaat pitched 25 seasons with the Senators, Twins, White Sox, Phillies, Yankees and Cardinals, winning 283 games over the course of four different decades. Kaat was named to three All-Star Games and helped the Cardinals win the 1982 World Series.

• Roger Maris won back-to-back American League Most Valuable Player Awards in 1960 and 1961, setting a new single-season home run record in the latter season with 61. In 12 big league seasons with the Indians, Athletics, Yankees and Cardinals, Maris earned seven All-Star Game selections and was a part of three World Series title teams.

• Minnie Miñoso played 17 seasons with the Indians, White Sox, Cardinals and Senators, earning nine AL/NL All-Star Game selections and three Gold Glove Awards as an outfielder. A native of Cuba, he blazed a trail for Latin American players in the big leagues starting in the 1950s.

• Danny Murtaugh managed Pittsburgh to four National League East titles, two NL pennants and World Series wins in 1960 and 1971 over 15 seasons. He fielded the first all-Black/Hispanic lineup in big league history on Sept. 1, 1971. Murtaugh compiled a 1,115-950 record with five first-place finishes.

• Tony Oliva played 15 seasons for the Twins, winning three batting titles and leading the American League in hits five times. He was named to eight All-Star Games and won the 1964 AL Rookie of the Year Award.

• Billy Pierce complied a 211-169 record with a 3.27 ERA in 18 seasons, 13 with the Chicago White Sox. A seven-time All-Star, he led the league in complete games three straight seasons, totaling 193 overall. He posted the lowest ERA in the AL in 1955 (1.97).

• Maury Wills played 14 seasons from 1959-72, 12 with the Los Angeles Dodgers, with a .281 lifetime average and 586 career stolen bases. The 1962 NL MVP was a seven-time All-Star and two-time Gold Glove Award winner at shortstop.

For purely on field contributions, Dick Allen should be a shoe in. Minnie Minoso, John Donaldson, and Cannonball Redding deserve strong consideration as well.

If they want to consider a lifetime contribution to the game, both Buck O'Neil and Lefty O'Doul should go in. Buck for his decent playing, coaching career, and decades of sharing the history of black baseball, and Lefty for bringing baseball to Japan.
 

E5 Yaz

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The thread title really buries the lede in that the article is about the nostalgia class.
Each year we put all of them in one thread. Little need to change the title 2-3 times during the process.The "nostalgia" class is part of the class.

Sorry for your pedantic butthurt
 

Archer1979

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Here's the entire list of candidates announced on the Baseball Hall of Fame page.

• Buck O’Neil played 10 seasons with the Memphis Red Sox and Kansas City Monarchs of the Negro American League and was named to three All-Star Games. Following his playing career, O’Neil became a scout for the Chicago Cubs and later became the first Black coach in AL or NL history with Chicago. Scouting for teams for much of the rest of his career, O’Neil became a beloved ambassador for the game who helped found the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City.

For purely on field contributions, Dick Allen should be a shoe in. Minnie Minoso, John Donaldson, and Cannonball Redding deserve strong consideration as well.

If they want to consider a lifetime contribution to the game, both Buck O'Neil and Lefty O'Doul should go in. Buck for his decent playing, coaching career, and decades of sharing the history of black baseball, and Lefty for bringing baseball to Japan.
Thanks for the full list. There's some names on there that I thought were already in.

One that I knew wasn't already in the HOF was Buck O'Neil. I would LOVE to see Buck go in. It would have to take, as you suggest, giving his post-playing career accomplishments a tremendous amount of weight. It's somewhat the same type of deal in getting the Sox to retire Pesky's number. I hope that someone advocates for him and gets a push going because the man certainly deserves it.
 

Ale Xander

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Does anyone under 70 years old care that much about the Veteran’s Committee (oooooh Golden Era nice name for an era where the players were grossly underpaid) candidates, other than Buck?
 

Archer1979

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Does anyone under 70 years old care that much about the Veteran’s Committee (oooooh Golden Era nice name for an era where the players were grossly underpaid) candidates, other than Buck?
Man alive. Making me feel old (and I'm still in my fifties).

I see it as a last chance to get the guys in that you were hoping would have on the writer's ballot. Obviously, the stats aren't going to get better, but I'm thinking that we all have favorites that might have a shot, especially when you start comparing them to others that recently made the Hall despite less than Hall-worthy numbers (cough Kirby Puckett cough).

My personal binkies are Dwight Evans and Luis Tiant but I'm not holding out much hope for either at this stage.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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The HOF always seems to give extra credit to players whose careers were cut short or had post season success, Puckett had both but I don’t really see him as a questionable HOF. 2300 hits, .318 career average, 124 ops+.
 

grimshaw

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Dick “don’t call me Richie” Allen hit the hardest home run I ever saw at Fenway. As observed from the bleachers, the ball went from bat into the left field netting in about a second and was still rising when it hit.
That's funny. My father and I were at a fantasy camp and Dick was there and we got to chat with him quite a bit. My dad mentioned a homerun to him that you are describing. Wonder if it was the same one. I know he had a prickly reputation, but he was really nice to me and the other kids so I'm biased in wanting him in.
 

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Dick Allen belongs in the Hall IMO. He had too short a career for eye popping cumulative stats, but he slashed .292/.378/.534 with a wRC+ 155 which is 12th all time right in between Mel Ott and Willie Mays. Highest slugging and wOBA ever for a 3b, though he only played 4 1/2 seasons there.
In Bill James' The Politics of Glory (1994) he writes "Fifteen years ago, when I wrote in an article that Dick Allen would probably be in the Hall of Fame eventually, a number of readers wrote to me to tell me how stupid I was. Now he's a popular Hall of Fame candidate. As time passes, the evaluation of a player comes to rest more and more on his statistics...(E)verything else tends to be forgotten. His statistics remain exactly the same, and eventually the statistics become the central part of the player's image."

James then goes on for a couple of pages recounting stories from Allen's career and then winds up the piece with "Did he help his team win? He did more to keep his teams from winning than anybody else who ever played major league baseball. And if that's a Hall of Fame, I'm a lug nut."

James may be a lug nut. When I was a kid, Allen was one of my favorite players and I loved it when he came to bat in my Strat-O-Matic or APBA games, but I lived in Needham, not Philadelphia, St. Louis, LA, or Chicago and had no idea whatsoever of his non-batting effect on his teams. Even today, do we have an idea of how much of that non-statistics haze is true?
 

Yelling At Clouds

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Man alive. Making me feel old (and I'm still in my fifties).
I think he just means this year’s group?

The committees are tough to pin down. Since they changed the system in 2016, they’ve inducted two guys who baseball knowers felt were unfairly denied by the writers - Alan Trammell and Ted Simmons. They inducted one guy who was a lightning rod for controversy while on the ballot, Jack Morris. And then Harold Baines, who nobody other than the people on the committee thought was Hall-worthy. (Also Lee Smith, who seems to inspire no strong feelings either way).While doing this, they continue to snub candidates of all stripes who are arguably just as deserving based on the standards that they themselves have established. So who knows what they’re ever going to do. It makes the conversations about whether or not a guy will get in kind of weird, though.
 

jose melendez

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Looking at how Manny and Papi have the two highest OPS+ on that list other than Bonds--a list that includes A-Rod-- really makes you realize that we kinda really did have Ruth and Gehrig in the middle of the lineup for 5+ years.

Edit: Except for the part where Ruth had a career OPS+ of 206 and Gehrig 179. Good grief.
 

terrynever

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In Bill James' The Politics of Glory (1994) he writes "Fifteen years ago, when I wrote in an article that Dick Allen would probably be in the Hall of Fame eventually, a number of readers wrote to me to tell me how stupid I was. Now he's a popular Hall of Fame candidate. As time passes, the evaluation of a player comes to rest more and more on his statistics...(E)verything else tends to be forgotten. His statistics remain exactly the same, and eventually the statistics become the central part of the player's image."

James then goes on for a couple of pages recounting stories from Allen's career and then winds up the piece with "Did he help his team win? He did more to keep his teams from winning than anybody else who ever played major league baseball. And if that's a Hall of Fame, I'm a lug nut."

James may be a lug nut. When I was a kid, Allen was one of my favorite players and I loved it when he came to bat in my Strat-O-Matic or APBA games, but I lived in Needham, not Philadelphia, St. Louis, LA, or Chicago and had no idea whatsoever of his non-batting effect on his teams. Even today, do we have an idea of how much of that non-statistics haze is true?
I grew up 20 miles north of Philly and followed the Phillies closely during the 1960s. In terms of James saying Allen “did more to keep his teams from winning than anybody else who ever played Major League Baseball,“ that’s just ludicrous. The main thing that hurt those good Phillies teams of the mid-1960s was the early demise of Johnny Callison at age 27. Callison was a high-strung lefty hitter who was as good as Clemente in RF. He burned out early due to stress. His story was too complicated and personal to write in a daily newspaper. Racism is always in season. The negative publicity about the Phillies falling out of contention went on Dick Allen’s shoulders, even as he continued to put up impressive stats at the plate. Phils finally switched him to left field in 1968 because they felt he made too many errors at third base. Scapegoat.

I suspect Bill James and his Midwestern values were put off by Allen’s attitude when he got traded to Bill’s beloved Cardinals. James can say stats live forever but we forget the times and political atmosphere. Allen got traded for Curt Flood, another angry Black athlete whose attitudes were based on the racism of the times. He should be in the Hall, too, for impacting the game in a most positive way — by helping to get rid of the reserve clause.

Allen had 34 homers and 101 RBI in his one St. Louis season, with an OPS of .934 but Cards only won 76 games. They immediately traded Dick to LA and the Cards rebounded to win 92 games, which is how James judges Dick Allen. St. Louis went from 86 to 76 to 92 wins from 1969-71. So to people like Bill James, who was just a fan in 1970, that one bad season was Dick Allen’s fault.

Black athletes of Dick Allen’s era either toed the line or were victims of discrimination campaigns that began in front offices and among media types of that era. Even Roberto Clemente received skeptical press coverage in Pittsburgh.
 
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snowmanny

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Still convinced it's going to be nobody. Need to see how well A-Rod and Ortiz do in the first ballot to gauge their chances of getting in eventually.
I will be pretty shocked if Ortiz is not in on the first ballot. The ARod/Clemens/Bonds group will be close but I'm leaning no. Schilling will probably drop.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I’m really skeptical that Ortiz makes it in. Are we thinking voters are going to dismiss the steroid allegations against him when they haven’t done so against others from that era?
 

axx

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I will be pretty shocked if Ortiz is not in on the first ballot. The ARod/Clemens/Bonds group will be close but I'm leaning no. Schilling will probably drop.
There's a lot of Anti-DH bias plus the steroids. If they won't elect Bonds or Clemens they aren't electing A-Rod in, at least on the first one either.
 

lexrageorge

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I’m really skeptical that Ortiz makes it in. Are we thinking voters are going to dismiss the steroid allegations against him when they haven’t done so against others from that era?
Papi’s media relations and post season accomplishments will eventually bring him over the top. Especially as the anti-DH zealots die off.
 

snowmanny

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I’m really skeptical that Ortiz makes it in. Are we thinking voters are going to dismiss the steroid allegations against him when they haven’t done so against others from that era?
The steroid stuff with Bonds, Clemens, Manny and ARod was way more specific. Ortiz tested positive for something on a very wide screening test, and even Manfred said that it wasn’t clear that everyone with a positive test had used a banned substance. And as far as I know that was the only actual evidence of him using, jerks like Felger notwithstanding.
 

lexrageorge

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The steroid stuff with Bonds, Clemens, Manny and ARod was way more specific. Ortiz tested positive for something on a very wide screening test, and even Manfred said that it wasn’t clear that everyone with a positive test had used a banned substance. And as far as I know that was the only actual evidence of him using, jerks like Felger notwithstanding.
It also matters that the results of the screening test were never intended to be verified at the individual level, and that the list never should have been made public in the first place.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I mean, I guess, but I’m really skeptical that the majority of sportswriters are taking that nuanced a look at the individual cases of players who were accused of using PED’s. hopefully true, though, I think this has gone on long enough and they need to start electing the greatest players from this generation regardless.
 
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Rovin Romine

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The steroid stuff with Bonds, Clemens, Manny and ARod was way more specific. Ortiz tested positive for something on a very wide screening test, and even Manfred said that it wasn’t clear that everyone with a positive test had used a banned substance. And as far as I know that was the only actual evidence of him using, jerks like Felger notwithstanding.
Bonds and Clemens had two huge investigations to deal with - they were acquitted of criminal charges, but it's pretty obvious that they used.

Arod confessed on national TV, said he'd never do it again, and then tested positive.

Manny had two positive tests.

Ortiz is probably more in the Bagwell camp. Bagwell admitted he took a specific steroid before it was banned, but rumors followed him. Ortiz had some kind of positive test of some sort, and rumors.
 

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Posnanski has me convinced on Minoso: https://theathletic.com/2344240/2021/01/26/hall-of-fame-outsiders-minnie-minoso/

He is, in my mind, the biggest void in the Baseball Hall of Fame. It is, quite frankly, shocking and appalling that he was not elected while he was alive. And while you can make powerful arguments why Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens or Pete Rose or Shoeless Joe Jackson do not have a place in the Hall of Fame, no such arguments exist for Miñoso. He was a great player, a pioneer and a powerful force for good within the game.
Every day that he is not in the Hall is a day that the Hall of Fame itself is diminished.
Edit: he has O'Neil second and Dick Allen 7th on that list
 

j-man

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a-rod should never be in other than his 1996 season at best 96-2000 he was a user otitz shouild be in if anything for his postseasons
 

opes

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I would love to see Maris in, just for all the shit he took and his ridiculous 1961 season. But i just cant justify the rest of his years. He averaged a war of about 4 throughout his career, but if Baines can be one I don't see why Maris couldn't be.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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If you use Harold Baines as the standard, the HOF is going to get a lot larger! Baseball-reference.com has him at 571th in career WAR. It really is astonishing how he made it in.
 
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PC Drunken Friar

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Thanks for the full list. There's some names on there that I thought were already in.

One that I knew wasn't already in the HOF was Buck O'Neil. I would LOVE to see Buck go in. It would have to take, as you suggest, giving his post-playing career accomplishments a tremendous amount of weight. It's somewhat the same type of deal in getting the Sox to retire Pesky's number. I hope that someone advocates for him and gets a push going because the man certainly deserves it.
When the Veteran's Committee was voting on the big class of Negro League players, Everyone assumed he would get in, so no one voted for him.
 

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Far more controversial players on the list now than in the past. Whether alleged steroid use, personality or political POV.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Far more controversial players on the list now than in the past. Whether alleged steroid use, personality or political POV.
Are they more "controversial" or do we just know more about now than we did before? Would Curt Schilling's crazy political views have gotten any airtime in the 1950s or the 1970s? Plenty of players used illegal stimulants for years and some may have used steroids before they became well known (Olympic athletes were clearly using them in the 1980s). And there have always been jerks - its just a lot easier for their obnoxiousness to make itself known and the media is much more willing to report on it.

So I guess they are more controversial in that we know about their flaws in ways in which we did not previously, but they're still basically the same people as those that sailed into the Hall before.
 

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There's a lot of Anti-DH bias plus the steroids. If they won't elect Bonds or Clemens they aren't electing A-Rod in, at least on the first one either.
Edgar Martinez' election seemed like maybe a thawing of this bias? Like we had better get this guy in because the pressure to put Ortiz in (with inferior stats) will be too great. I know that's a bit conspiratorial for the actions of a group of sportswriters, but in general I don't think any anti-DH thing will stop Papi. The positive test could force him to wait a year. That I could see.
 

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Also Carl Crawford... WTF?! What's the threshold for being on the ballot, a certain number of all star appearances? Because absolutely nothing else about Crawford suggests he will get into the hall of fame. Steals? His two year peak that got him paid?
3. Eligible Candidates -- Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning fifteen (15) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.

B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3(A).

C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.

D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.

E. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.
It's basically ten years of Major League service.
 

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Also Carl Crawford... WTF?! What's the threshold for being on the ballot, a certain number of all star appearances? Because absolutely nothing else about Crawford suggests he will get into the hall of fame. Steals? His two year peak that got him paid?
I think it's entirely dependent on who else is eligible in a given year. Of the newly eligible players this year, Crawford is 6th in bWAR. ARod, Ortiz, Teixiera, Rollins, and Peavy are only ones ahead of him. FWIW, some of the players newly eligible but not on the ballot include former Sox luminaries such as Marlon Byrd, Matt Thornton, Coco Crisp, and Javier Lopez (the pitcher).
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Also Carl Crawford... WTF?! What's the threshold for being on the ballot, a certain number of all star appearances? Because absolutely nothing else about Crawford suggests he will get into the hall of fame. Steals? His two year peak that got him paid?
And this is different than Jake Peavy or Justin Morneau? A.J. Pierzynski? There's guy like this every year who are one and done.
 

TheGazelle

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Also Carl Crawford... WTF?! What's the threshold for being on the ballot, a certain number of all star appearances? Because absolutely nothing else about Crawford suggests he will get into the hall of fame. Steals? His two year peak that got him paid?
There's a six-person screening committee that identifies who gets on the ballot from the pool of "eligible" players (i.e. players who played in 10 seasons and retired 5+ years ago). If two people from that committee determine someone should be on the ballot, then they are there, and typically one-and-done.
 

mauidano

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I vote David Ortiz and then it's tough after that.

The usual suspects arguments pro and con will be debated ad nauseam for the rest of the returnees. No one else of the new guys overwhelms me.
 

lexrageorge

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My definite votes, if I had a vote:

Clemens
Bonds
A-Rod
Papi

Players I would consider voting for, and would not be outraged if they eventually got in:

Manny
Jimmy Rollins
Andruw Jones
Scott Rolen

My fun votes, as in "thanks for the memories":

Papelbon
Torii Hunter (for falling into the bullpen)
 

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Bonds
Clemens
Jones
Kent
Ortiz
Manny
Rolen
Schilling
Sheffield
Wagner

Slappy belongs as well but he can wait a year. Helton is borderline IMO.