2022 Hall of Fame Class

Petagine in a Bottle

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Interesting class- there’s more than a dozen players here who wouldn’t be out of place in the HOF, but steroid issues surround most of them. I have no clue how the voters will handle this one; I could see a case being made or Rolen as a clean candidate, or I could see him getting little to no support.

Bonds, Clemens, Ortiz, Manny, A-Rod should be no brainers. Schilling would be a yes from me, although I feel less strongly about that than I used to. Rolen feels like a yes. Kent, Sheffield, Jones could be argued fairly convincingly. I’d say no on Wagner, Pettitte, Helton, Teixiera, and Sosa but there are sadly worse guys in the Hall.
 

Max Power

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There's zero chance either A-Rod or Manny are getting voted in this year. They were both actually suspended for steroid use. Papi may have been in the surveillance results, but he played concurrently with those two and he was never suspended. That's a big difference that the voters aren't going to overlook.
 

Kliq

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There's zero chance either A-Rod or Manny are getting voted in this year. They were both actually suspended for steroid use. Papi may have been in the surveillance results, but he played concurrently with those two and he was never suspended. That's a big difference that the voters aren't going to overlook.
I'd like to think this is the case. I think it means something when someone was tested for what, 15 years(?), and never failed a drug test. Obviously people can beat the system, but guys like A-Rod and Manny eventually got caught. Papi never did, and the connection between him and PEDs is marginal at best anyway. We really don't have any more solid reasoning to suspect his performance as being assisted as we do with any great player who is putting up numbers today.
 

trekfan55

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I'd like to think this is the case. I think it means something when someone was tested for what, 15 years(?), and never failed a drug test. Obviously people can beat the system, but guys like A-Rod and Manny eventually got caught. Papi never did, and the connection between him and PEDs is marginal at best anyway. We really don't have any more solid reasoning to suspect his performance as being assisted as we do with any great player who is putting up numbers today.
Someone will always nring up his supposed "failed test" when we have no idea what he tested positive for, the tests were done with absolute anonimty and with probably not the most stringest safeguards implmented later on, and they were done for reference. Yet here we are. Hopefully the voters understand that he got tested A LOT and did not fail once.

Bonds, Arod, and Manny should be in the Hall. Schilling is more borderline and his political views may (they shouldn't) keep him out.

I also hope Rolen gets in.
 

Yo La Tengo

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I'm assuming SOSH has at some point dissected the PED claims against Ortiz? I'd love to see it. Looking at the Manfred statements, the mishandling of the MLB and government PED list, the lack of any known failed tests, and Ortiz's minor league and early MLB numbers, it seems Ortiz's story holds up.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Regarding the failed drug tests- hardly any of these guys actually tested positive for roids when testing was Implemented by the league, right? With Manny and A-Rod as the exceptions? Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc. were never accused or suspended by MLB for using. Ortiz will be an interesting case as the accusations against him seem less credible and he’s actually well liked.
 

Ford Frick's Asterisk

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Regarding the failed drug tests- hardly any of these guys actually tested positive for roids when testing was Implemented by the league, right? With Manny and A-Rod as the exceptions? Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc. were never accused or suspended by MLB for using. Ortiz will be an interesting case as the accusations against him seem less credible and he’s actually well liked.
I'm not really sure what you're asking for in the bolded, and I don't really want to rehash old steroid/hgh stories all that much, but…

There was no testing, never mind penalties, during McGwire's career. He retired in 2001, two years before testing and three before there were any penalties enforced. However, he openly used androstenedione, which has been banned since testing was implemented. Bonds and Clemens both played during the testing era and never failed a test, but both have been accused in court and legal documents. Clemens' own trainer testified the pitcher was using human growth hormone, but Clemen's wife fell on the syringe for him. Bonds was was involved with Balco and using the clear and cream (along with Sheffield) beyond any reasonable doubt. Since they were both in the twilight of their careers before testing started, it would be safe to assume both A-Rod and Manny also passed more drug tests in their careers than Bonds and Clemens.

Personally, I'd give them all a vote (except Sheffield, @#% that @$#%'er who also admitted to dogging his way out of Milwaukee, was an all-time bad fielder, and an all-star level piece of shit)… but placing those guys in different categories is kind of pointless. There's no reasonable argument any of them didn't use PED's. Not to mention, if Bonds and Clemens were playing under the same circumstances A-Rod later was, they could/would have been suspended even without a failed test. And while I'd still give Manny my vote, I also have no sympathy for the way he turned his career into a joke.
 

Ale Xander

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I'm not really sure what you're asking for in the bolded, and I don't really want to rehash old steroid/hgh stories all that much, but…

There was no testing, never mind penalties, during McGwire's career. He retired in 2001, two years before testing and three before there were any penalties enforced. However, he openly used androstenedione, which has been banned since testing was implemented. Bonds and Clemens both played during the testing era and never failed a test, but both have been accused in court and legal documents. Clemens' own trainer testified the pitcher was using human growth hormone, but Clemen's wife fell on the syringe for him. Bonds was was involved with Balco and using the clear and cream (along with Sheffield) beyond any reasonable doubt. Since they were both in the twilight of their careers before testing started, it would be safe to assume both A-Rod and Manny also passed more drug tests in their careers than Bonds and Clemens.

Personally, I'd give them all a vote (except Sheffield, @#% that @$#%'er who also admitted to dogging his way out of Milwaukee, was an all-time bad fielder, and an all-star level piece of shit)… but placing those guys in different categories is kind of pointless. There's no reasonable argument any of them didn't use PED's. Not to mention, if Bonds and Clemens were playing under the same circumstances A-Rod later was, they could/would have been suspended even without a failed test. And while I'd still give Manny my vote, I also have no sympathy for the way he turned his career into a joke.
You had me until the last dozen words. Manny retired as arguably the best right-handed hitter of his generation. And as you very well know, as a young player, he was part of one of the greatest lineups of the last 2 generations. It pained me to read those dozen words.

See below.
 

Ed Hillel

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I'm assuming SOSH has at some point dissected the PED claims against Ortiz? I'd love to see it. Looking at the Manfred statements, the mishandling of the MLB and government PED list, the lack of any known failed tests, and Ortiz's minor league and early MLB numbers, it seems Ortiz's story holds up.
The massive problem with that list is that it tested substances that the MLB never actually banned. Part of the reason they created it, I would assume, was to see which substances were prevalent and to weigh whether to ban. Anyone holding anything against anyone on that list is bullshit.

But life is full of bullshit and some definitely will.
Fielder might be one and done too.... no longevity
Same with Lincecum.
 
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djbayko

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I'm assuming SOSH has at some point dissected the PED claims against Ortiz? I'd love to see it. Looking at the Manfred statements, the mishandling of the MLB and government PED list, the lack of any known failed tests, and Ortiz's minor league and early MLB numbers, it seems Ortiz's story holds up.
I think most of SoSH like to give Ortiz the benefit of doubt. But we are Red Sox fans and have a lot of reason to look at the specifics of his case. Ortiz has to hope that enough voters like him enough as a person and his career to also look at the specifics of his case. I guarantee that for a lot of people, he's lumped into the same bucket with a lot of the other PED players. Maybe not Clemens/Bonds/A-Rod level, but next tier down in terms of doubt.
 

lexrageorge

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After the Harold Baines fiasco, Ortiz being denied entry into the Hall would be one of the largest voting travesties in the history of the BBWA.

I do agree that some of the "old time" voters in the BBWA will indeed lump him in with the "cheaters" simply because of the list fiasco. And there is still probably an idiotic anti-DH bias among some voters, but I believe that is fading faster and than the anti-PED bias. Helping his cause greatly will be the fact that this is the final year that Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling will be swallowing up a lot of votes, and at least having the first 2 off the ballot will allow some voters to reassess how they view the candidates from the PEDs era. And there will be a relative dearth of new candidates for a couple of years: Beltran, Beltre, Utley, and Ichiro are the tops among hitters coming on the board over the next 3 years, and I don't believe there are a lot of notable pitchers aside from CC Sabathia becoming eligible. Another reason to root for getting Rollins and Andruw Jones getting in this year.

It also helps that Ortiz has a lot of friends in baseball and in the press, and in a close call election that will matter. I predict he will get in on his 2nd or 3rd ballot.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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After the Harold Baines fiasco, Ortiz being denied entry into the Hall would be one of the largest voting travesties in the history of the BBWA.
While I agree that Baines getting in was a joke, it's apples and oranges to apply that to Ortiz's case at this point. Baines was selected by the Veterans Committee, not the BBWAA. He only lasted five (out of a possible 15) years on the BBWAA ballot and barely made the cut to advance in those first four years (he peaked at 6.1% of the ballots). If Ortiz fails to reach the 5% minimum to remain on the ballot, then maybe we can start invoking the Baines travesty. Extremely doubtful that happens.
 

lexrageorge

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Desert of Maine and The Mystery Spot have to be up there
The faux-outrage machine is definitely lining up against Ortiz. And weren't those "Mongo" stories found to be exaggerated if not debunked outright?
 

axx

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If you’re going to uphold the character clause and not vote for PED guys real or imagined, and (rightfully IMO) not vote for Schilling, voting for Omar Vizquel undercuts the legitimacy of your statement.
In his defense, Schilling asked to be taken off the ballot and was denied. That would be something to watch to see how many do end up voting for him.
 

Ed Hillel

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scottyno

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I take back everything bad I said about Ryan Howard, Mr idiot phillies fan thinks he was an easy yes vote for the hall of fame because he hit bombs and he ran to first with an injury once
 

Steve Dillard

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I could see the case for Rolen. No matter how broken his swing got, his fielding was such that he would make the right play twice a day.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Yup. I have no beef with Ryan Howard, he had a nice career, but it’s ludicrous to vote him in but not David Ortiz. And that’s just one ridiculous example. Seeing ballots like this make it clear how foolish the Hall of Fame is at this point.
Jeff freaking Kent over Bonds? Understand its about the 'roids... But come on.
 

Max Power

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Yup. I have no beef with Ryan Howard, he had a nice career, but it’s ludicrous to vote him in but not David Ortiz. And that’s just one ridiculous example. Seeing ballots like this make it clear how foolish the Hall of Fame is at this point.
It just shows the need for a large voting pool. That's one of 500 ballots and the voters have done a good job overall, even with really dumb ones like that. It's the special committees that have made the most nonsense picks, and since their voting pool is 12 or 16 people, it makes sense that it happens more often there.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Yup. I have no beef with Ryan Howard, he had a nice career, but it’s ludicrous to vote him in but not David Ortiz. And that’s just one ridiculous example. Seeing ballots like this make it clear how foolish the Hall of Fame is at this point.
A single ballot like this is really only an indictment of the whole process if we get caught up in vote percentages. One guy or even ten guys out of ~400 putting in a biased and nonsensical ballot isn't a big deal unless we're concerned with a guy getting 90% vs 85% vs 75.1% of the votes.

Don't get me wrong, I think the jackasses like this guy who throw votes to guys destined to drop off the ballot after one year and failing to vote for no-doubters should have their voting privileges revoked. I'm not on board saying it makes the whole thing a sham though.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Jimmy Rollins but not Rolen? It’s just stupid. I won’t read his explanation, it’s not worth the click.
Haven't read the article either, but my guess is Rolen rejected the Phillies resulting in his trade to the Cardinals (where he won a ring) while Rollins and Howard won rings in Philadelphia. Homer vote all the way down the line.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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This isn't a real ballot. I mean, technically it is, but there's no thought in it. The only constants is that he voted for guys who weren't touched by PED allegations and former Phillies who didn't shoot themselves out of town.

He didn't put any real thought into this. Cripes, he's the first one done.
 

donutogre

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It just shows the need for a large voting pool. That's one of 500 ballots and the voters have done a good job overall, even with really dumb ones like that. It's the special committees that have made the most nonsense picks, and since their voting pool is 12 or 16 people, it makes sense that it happens more often there.
A few people made this point, so I will walk back my righteous outrage a bit :) The fact that there are so many ballots truly does make a big difference, and make it easier to overlook foolishness like this ballot.
 

axx

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Howard deserves to be in the Bad Contract Hall of Fame. And it was only 5 years!
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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That first guys ballot is proof positive that HOF voting needs to be changed. What an awful ballot.

Bonds/Clemens/Arod/Manny/Schilling/Ortiz all should be in. This nonsense of keeping Bonds (or Clemens) out while putting guys like Baines in, is ridiculous and makes the HOF a complete joke.