2022 Hall of Fame Class

edoug

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Jul 15, 2005
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Buck O'Neil not being elected during his lifetime was a tremendously foolish thing.
He was marvelous in Ken Burns' "Baseball"
Yeah, not the first, or last, foolish thing
So everyone with actual knowledge of what happened "went out of their way to exonerate Ortiz" but Verducci still needs to think "really... hard" about whether this constitutes proof?

Hope this guy isn't on my jury when I'm tried for something!
I got your back. Whatever you did. You didn't do.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
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Apr 12, 2001
24,549
Aside from Schilling, that's pretty much the ballot that I'd submit. And I like the way that Bradford did it. Very cool.

BTW, aside from Rolen and Bonds, I believe the other eight players had played on the Yankees or the Sox at one time.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Oct 31, 2013
72,568
I'm anti-Sheffield in several ways, but that was a classic imitation! I am disappointed though that he had Clemens going in as a Yankee.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
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Jul 20, 2005
7,880
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Gar Ryness has a unique skill that he's managed to use to its fullest. He's the best physical comedian working today, which means he's better than Carrot Top, who's the only other one.

He tells a great story about performing for some retired players and having a woman come up to him after the show asking him to do Willie Stargell again. It was his widow who said she felt like she was seeing him one more time.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
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Jul 14, 2005
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Vote tracker:

2022 BBHOF Tracker.xlsm - Microsoft Excel Online (live.com)

Very early, but it has Bonds and Clemens at 79.2% and Ortiz at 75%. Schilling at 66.7%.
Total ballots are 401. Election threshold is 301. Right now the tracker has 25 ballots, or 6.4% of the vote.

FWIW, the prior years show a public ballot count of the low 200s, prior to the announcement. Bonds, Clemens, and Shilling seem to show a significant drop among the votes revealed after the announcement. It may not be predictive, but it's there.
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
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Dec 7, 2008
11,308
He picked 3 of the top 5 non PED guys in voting from last year, it isn't nearly as bad as some other ballots we've already seen submitted. If he added Rolen it would be a pretty legitimate "no ped guys" ballot if you consider Ortiz to be in with the PED guys, which unfortunately a lot of writers seem to do.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
24,393
Gar Ryness has a unique skill that he's managed to use to its fullest. He's the best physical comedian working today, which means he's better than Carrot Top, who's the only other one.

He tells a great story about performing for some retired players and having a woman come up to him after the show asking him to do Willie Stargell again. It was his widow who said she felt like she was seeing him one more time.
I’ve known Gar since he was a student in college. He’s a great guy along with having a very cool talent.
 

Daniel_Son

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May 25, 2021
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Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but there's been some press lately on Ortiz v. Sosa with regards to PEDs. Both were named in the same 2003 NYT report. Are postseason accomplishments really worth that much more to the voters? I love Ortiz as much as the next SoSHer, but does Sosa's lack of support in comparison to Big Papi really seem fair?
 

snowmanny

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Dec 8, 2005
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Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but there's been some press lately on Ortiz v. Sosa with regards to PEDs. Both were named in the same 2003 NYT report. Are postseason accomplishments really worth that much more to the voters? I love Ortiz as much as the next SoSHer, but does Sosa's lack of support in comparison to Big Papi really seem fair?
Sammy Sosa had a great five or six year run - six years in a row with an OPS+ over 130, which were his only six. Ortiz had 12 such seasons over a 14 year period. When he retired he was the best hitter of baseballs in the league (though his ability to run was reduced). He also was a key member of three championship teams and produced some of the most iconic moments of his era, and was pretty much universally hailed as a leader and a great ambassador of the game. Whatever his WAR was, his impact on the games and the championship runs and the Sox lineup was pretty visible for all to see over a very long time. To me Ortiz is pretty much a slam dunk and while I get the loose similarity to Sosa, there is a lot more to Papi's career than there is to Sammy's.
And I think Sosa's accomplishments - specifically the 292 home runs in five years - are so freakish that rightly or wrongly there are indeed assumptions placed on him.

But if you pull out the PEDs, sure if Kiner is in the HOF then Sosa should be as well. If Oliva is in the HOF then obviously Ortiz should be too. But in my mind Ortiz >>> Sosa as an overall contributor to baseball.
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
22,673
Buck O'Neil not being elected during his lifetime was a tremendously foolish thing.
He was marvelous in Ken Burns' "Baseball"
The thing with Buck O'Neil was that he felt like he wasn't worthy of the HoF and there were tons of less-famous Negro League players he thought should get in ahead of him. He was also on the VC with the special designation of being the guy with the most sway when it comes to electing Negro League players, he wasn't going to advocate for himself when he felt like there were many better options that needed his support. So I think there is a good reason why he wasn't elected in his lifetime.
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
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Dec 7, 2008
11,308
Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but there's been some press lately on Ortiz v. Sosa with regards to PEDs. Both were named in the same 2003 NYT report. Are postseason accomplishments really worth that much more to the voters? I love Ortiz as much as the next SoSHer, but does Sosa's lack of support in comparison to Big Papi really seem fair?
Sosa was also proven to have cheated at least once. So if you're making determination based on "we know for sure they cheated" vs "maybe they did something but who knows" then Sosa goes in the first group.
 

Van Everyman

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Apr 30, 2009
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Sosa's career was also in the eye of the PED storm (and is strongly associated with McGwire), whereas Ortiz retired a decade later by which time there had been much more of a testing regimen in place. Put another way, and fairly or not, I don't think players who played the last 15 years are a strongly associated with the PED era as the players from the previous decade. Ortiz is a little unique in that he overlaps with both, but also succeeded wildly in the latter.

And yes, he's a much more important figure in baseball that Sosa was.
 

axx

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Jul 16, 2005
8,126
re: Rolen, if you like arbitrary stats, BBRef has him 10th in the JAWS list for third basemen.

Beltre is 4th. The other 8 guys are all in the Hall.
Edgar is 11th (lol) - course Edgar is only on the list because they don't have one for DH.

The list falls off at that point. There are a few old timey guys in the Hall down the list.

12th is Greg Nettles, which interestingly enough at a quick glance, his stats are rather comparable to Rolen. He even had 2 years of Top 5 WAR to Rolen's 1. Bit before my time but he only managed to stay on the ballot for 4 years.
 

Daniel_Son

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May 25, 2021
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Sammy Sosa had a great five or six year run - six years in a row with an OPS+ over 130, which were his only six. Ortiz had 12 such seasons over a 14 year period. When he retired he was the best hitter of baseballs in the league (though his ability to run was reduced). He also was a key member of three championship teams and produced some of the most iconic moments of his era, and was pretty much universally hailed as a leader and a great ambassador of the game. Whatever his WAR was, his impact on the games and the championship runs and the Sox lineup was pretty visible for all to see over a very long time. To me Ortiz is pretty much a slam dunk and while I get the loose similarity to Sosa, there is a lot more to Papi's career than there is to Sammy's.
And I think Sosa's accomplishments - specifically the 292 home runs in five years - are so freakish that rightly or wrongly there are indeed assumptions placed on him.

But if you pull out the PEDs, sure if Kiner is in the HOF then Sosa should be as well. If Oliva is in the HOF then obviously Ortiz should be too. But in my mind Ortiz >>> Sosa as an overall contributor to baseball.
Sosa's role in the '98 home run chase was incredibly important - a moment which, I might add, Bud Selig, MLB, and the sportswriters were more than happy to cash in on at the time. I don't know how that doesn't qualify as "iconic" or "being an ambassador of the game."

And sure, we can make assumptions about Sosa's accomplishments, but the fact remains that the "proof" for Sosa is the exact same "proof" for Ortiz, and I think it's incredibly unfair that Ortiz gets a pardon from Commissioner himself and Sosa is left to hang in the wind.
 

JoePoulson

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Sosa's role in the '98 home run chase was incredibly important - a moment which, I might add, Bud Selig, MLB, and the sportswriters were more than happy to cash in on at the time. I don't know how that doesn't qualify as "iconic" or "being an ambassador of the game."

And sure, we can make assumptions about Sosa's accomplishments, but the fact remains that the "proof" for Sosa is the exact same "proof" for Ortiz, and I think it's incredibly unfair that Ortiz gets a pardon from Commissioner himself and Sosa is left to hang in the wind.
Except for that whole corked bat incident.
 

rockchalkredsox

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Oct 31, 2013
28
And sure, we can make assumptions about Sosa's accomplishments, but the fact remains that the "proof" for Sosa is the exact same "proof" for Ortiz, and I think it's incredibly unfair that Ortiz gets a pardon from Commissioner himself and Sosa is left to hang in the wind.
Sosa also admitted to using a corked bat in 2003 (I assume this is scottyno's claim to proven cheat). I think this allows a lot of writers to confirm their continued suspicions related to Sosa's PED use.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Jan 23, 2009
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Sosa's role in the '98 home run chase was incredibly important - a moment which, I might add, Bud Selig, MLB, and the sportswriters were more than happy to cash in on at the time. I don't know how that doesn't qualify as "iconic" or "being an ambassador of the game."

And sure, we can make assumptions about Sosa's accomplishments, but the fact remains that the "proof" for Sosa is the exact same "proof" for Ortiz, and I think it's incredibly unfair that Ortiz gets a pardon from Commissioner himself and Sosa is left to hang in the wind.
Let's not overlook that the bulk of Ortiz's career was played in a tested era and he never popped a positive. That might play into why Papi gets more of a pass for the 2003 thing than others. Granted, Sosa played his last few years being tested as well, but his production by then had fallen off considerably from his peak.
 

coremiller

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Jul 14, 2005
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It's far from dispositive of anything of course, but Sosa was a skinny guy earlier in his career that got suddenly got huge and muscle-bound in his 30s. Ortiz was always a big dude, and never had the typical roid physique. That may influence voters' perceptions.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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The thing with Buck O'Neil was that he felt like he wasn't worthy of the HoF and there were tons of less-famous Negro League players he thought should get in ahead of him. He was also on the VC with the special designation of being the guy with the most sway when it comes to electing Negro League players, he wasn't going to advocate for himself when he felt like there were many better options that needed his support. So I think there is a good reason why he wasn't elected in his lifetime.
Not sure “wasn’t worthy” was his feelings, been a long time since I heard about a conversation held with him about this, but more “I am going to do whatever I can to get as many others in, and if I slide in with them, fine, but I will not advocate for myself”. He also didn’t feel worthy of being the face of the NLBM or of the Ken Burns piece, just that those were some things he thought needed to be done and there wasn’t anyone else stepping up.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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The thing with Buck O'Neil was that he felt like he wasn't worthy of the HoF and there were tons of less-famous Negro League players he thought should get in ahead of him. He was also on the VC with the special designation of being the guy with the most sway when it comes to electing Negro League players, he wasn't going to advocate for himself when he felt like there were many better options that needed his support. So I think there is a good reason why he wasn't elected in his lifetime.
The reason is the voting committee wanted as many guys in as could be. Everyone assumed Buck was a shoo-in so they voted for other people. Many were genuinely shocked when he didn't get it.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Jan 23, 2009
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It's far from dispositive of anything of course, but Sosa was a skinny guy earlier in his career that got suddenly got huge and muscle-bound in his 30s. Ortiz was always a big dude, and never had the typical roid physique. That may influence voters' perceptions.
Sosa's B-R page still lists him at 6' 0" and 165 pounds. Talk about laughable.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Oct 23, 2001
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Sosa's role in the '98 home run chase was incredibly important - a moment which, I might add, Bud Selig, MLB, and the sportswriters were more than happy to cash in on at the time. I don't know how that doesn't qualify as "iconic" or "being an ambassador of the game."
I would equate this to Roger Maris breaking Ruth's record. Sure, it was iconic and important, but it did not get Maris into the Hall.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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May 5, 2017
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It was also iconic in the way that making a mockery of the previous home run records while McGwire had Andro sitting in his open locker and Sosa joked about Flintstone vitamins really kick-started the campaign that something finally needed to be done about PEDs in the game. Sosa's 5-year peak fell right in line with what will always been seen as the most rampant period of steroid use in the sport and that's always going to be attached to him. I remember plenty of talk about his physical talents early in his career, but he never seemed to have the level of hitting skill Ortiz did. Obviously, we can't input steroid users' stats into a calculator and come up with a non-steroid equivalent, but it's hard for me to imagine Sosa as anything more than George Foster with some extra steals if he'd come along 20 years earlier. Their career arcs are pretty similar and their rate stats are basically the same except for Sosa's 50 extra points of slugging. Foster never received 7% of the HoF vote and dropped off the ballot after four years.
 

snowmanny

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Dec 8, 2005
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Sosa's role in the '98 home run chase was incredibly important - a moment which, I might add, Bud Selig, MLB, and the sportswriters were more than happy to cash in on at the time. I don't know how that doesn't qualify as "iconic" or "being an ambassador of the game."

And sure, we can make assumptions about Sosa's accomplishments, but the fact remains that the "proof" for Sosa is the exact same "proof" for Ortiz, and I think it's incredibly unfair that Ortiz gets a pardon from Commissioner himself and Sosa is left to hang in the wind.
Yeah, that was a big moment at the time, one nobody remembers fondly no

The notion that Sosa was an admired figure to the degree and duration that Ortiz was is laughable. And, again, Ortiz had a far longer stretch of greatness.

Ortiz performed at a higher level than Sosa during the testing period, of course.

I doubt the Commisioner’s pardon has much to do with the vote differential.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
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Jul 20, 2005
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Sosa's role in the '98 home run chase was incredibly important - a moment which, I might add, Bud Selig, MLB, and the sportswriters were more than happy to cash in on at the time. I don't know how that doesn't qualify as "iconic" or "being an ambassador of the game."

And sure, we can make assumptions about Sosa's accomplishments, but the fact remains that the "proof" for Sosa is the exact same "proof" for Ortiz, and I think it's incredibly unfair that Ortiz gets a pardon from Commissioner himself and Sosa is left to hang in the wind.
We also have proof David Ortiz was a significantly better baseball player than Sammy Sosa. Over nearly identical number of plate appearances, Papi had a 141 OPS+ to Sosa's 128. Sosa was a better baserunner and defender (maybe) early in his career, but by the time he was a good hitter, he was terrible on the bases and in the field. He went from a 30/30 guy in 1995 to 64/0 guy in 2001. Papi was also statistically twice as clutch, with 50 WPA in his career to Sosa's 25. That's all not even mentioning the postseason or consistency. I don't see how the two are comparable.
 

Bosoxian

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Aug 17, 2021
158
And sure, we can make assumptions about Sosa's accomplishments, but the fact remains that the "proof" for Sosa is the exact same "proof" for Ortiz, and I think it's incredibly unfair that Ortiz gets a pardon from Commissioner himself and Sosa is left to hang in the wind.
Are you forgetting the corked bat incident with Sosa?
 

MuzzyField

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Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but there's been some press lately on Ortiz v. Sosa with regards to PEDs. Both were named in the same 2003 NYT report. Are postseason accomplishments really worth that much more to the voters? I love Ortiz as much as the next SoSHer, but does Sosa's lack of support in comparison to Big Papi really seem fair?
Yes.
 

Hoya81

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Feb 3, 2010
8,458
Literally the post immediately after that:



And then the post immediately after that:



Literally.
It feels to me that prior to the PED era, things like corked bats and doctoring the ball were always seen as misdemeanors compared to something more serious like gambling on/throwing a game. They’re still not even sure a corked bat provides any real advantage.