2024 WNBA Playoffs

reggiecleveland

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Totally agree...I think the rookies had something like 2 weeks from college ball to the W. It sounded like Clark was fine not being selected for the Olympics...I would imagine she needed some time off!

And towards the end of the game, they were discussing Clark's off-season plans...she's not expected to play in Europe (or elsewhere), nor is she lined up for the Unrivaled 3x3...sounds like she's going to probably take a break. Though someone like her, I'd imagine she'll be working on conditioning, etc...she doesn't seem like someone who's going to truly "take time off"...

I'm curious why the Rookie of the Year wasn't presented to her yet...will they do that at one of the other stages of the finals? I know the Commissioner presented A'ja with the MVP at their first game. I'm guessing because the Fever weren't in their home court, that's why they didn't do it at Mohegan. But, they should do something special....
Interesting points.
I hope that now that the WNBA has successfully taken on the NFL with Sunday games they may consider a change to a more conventional hoops season. IMHO opinion before the CC effect they were the most successful summer league in the world. It has worked out with college players going right from the hype of March madness to the W, but it would be fantastic to start later and finish up in the winter, with a slight overlap.
 

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Interesting points.
I hope that now that the WNBA has successfully taken on the NFL with Sunday games they may consider a change to a more conventional hoops season. IMHO opinion before the CC effect they were the most successful summer league in the world. It has worked out with college players going right from the hype of March madness to the W, but it would be fantastic to start later and finish up in the winter, with a slight overlap.
Whatever they do I’d like the W to lengthen the season, even if the number of games doesn’t go up that much- I presume they will add 4-6 games due to the new teams, but they should decompress anyway. They make these players play too much with not enough time for rest.
 

InstaFace

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Whatever they do I’d like the W to lengthen the season, even if the number of games doesn’t go up that much- I presume they will add 4-6 games due to the new teams, but they should decompress anyway. They make these players play too much with not enough time for rest.
There's a very under-studied and poorly-understood aspect of women's sports that desperately needs some research, which is "why do elite female pro athletes get injured at a much higher clip than men's athletes?". And I'm not sure it is just a matter of adding a bit more rest: There is an absolute epidemic of ACL injuries among elite women's soccer players (and at all levels too, including youth), one that's been very evident for years, despite them playing many fewer annual matches / minutes than elite men's players.

Generally speaking, women's bodies are "designed better" than men's bodies. Female is the default sex in nature - only by getting bathed in testosterone in utero does a body turn into something else - so genetically, they've ended up more optimized. Women sweat more efficiently than men (can outrun men in ultramarathons, for example), get many kinds of cancer less often, and seem particularly better-protected against common neurological issues (massive gender gap in autism rates, ADHD rates, schizophrenia, all favoring women). The list goes on. Sure, their muscle density and VO2Max is lower than men's - that's the whole point of the testosterone, after all - but that should just make a difference in how hard / strong they can play (when compared to men), not in propensity for injury. There's no reason they should be more fragile in a sporting environment, indeed the opposite.

The most plausible direction for study that I've seen so far is that training habits (strength training, stretches, routines before/after a practice) have been developed over the decades, really over a century, all geared towards men's sports and what works for men's bodies, as a matter of trial-and-error. And now that women's pro sports are more than a blip on the radar (financially and culturally), the training habits they've inherited are simply transferred over to their sport, by default - that's all we got! and that's all that the professionals available for hire know! - rather than being carefully designed and tested for what's optimal for the bodies of elite female athletes.

Michele Kang, the owner of the Washington Spirit and a major entrepreneur in women's soccer, has established a collective among her owned clubs (And some others that are participating in the NWSL and around the world), basically in order to study this and devote money and researchers' time to experimentation and publishing the conclusions, because she thinks it's a major blind spot that we have. I certainly wouldn't doubt her on that point. But it's a field full of unknowns, for basketball every bit as much as for soccer and track and other sports. And a bit more rest doesn't seem to explain the difference, or meaningfully lower the risk.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Interesting points.
I hope that now that the WNBA has successfully taken on the NFL with Sunday games they may consider a change to a more conventional hoops season. IMHO opinion before the CC effect they were the most successful summer league in the world. It has worked out with college players going right from the hype of March madness to the W, but it would be fantastic to start later and finish up in the winter, with a slight overlap.
Are we looking at the same numbers? Game 2 nearly doubled the viewership of the Game 1 that went up against the NFL while not capturing a new audience. Small sample and all but I messaged 8-9 people in my Discord if they watched Game 1 as a survey and not a single person did…..they either forgot it was on while getting caught up in the NFL at 3pm or didn’t even know it was on. Some of them are probably reading this right now and can confirm.

I’m assuming this was a network slot thing that they already had in place pre-Caitlin (deserved) hype and not the WNBA but that was not good for the sports exposure for a wider audience.
 

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Are we looking at the same numbers? Game 2 nearly doubled the viewership of the Game 1 that went up against the NFL while not capturing a new audience. Small sample and all but I messaged 8-9 people in my Discord if they watched Game 1 as a survey and not a single person did…..they either forgot it was on while getting caught up in the NFL at 3pm or didn’t even know it was on. Some of them are probably reading this right now and can confirm.

I’m assuming this was a network slot thing that they already had in place pre-Caitlin (deserved) hype and not the WNBA but that was not good for the sports exposure for a wider audience.
Yeah, I would much prefer the W go up against football than go up against the NBA. There are plenty of basketball fans who are looking for a game to watch through the summer. This is there audience. I'm not sure there's a lot of crossover fans between hardcore NFL dudes and WNBA fans.
 

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Yeah, I would much prefer the W go up against football than go up against the NBA. There are plenty of basketball fans who are looking for a game to watch through the summer. This is there audience. I'm not sure there's a lot of crossover fans between hardcore NFL dudes and WNBA fans.
See that’s the thing….the people watching NFL Sunday out of religion/habit are spread over much larger groups than simply hardcore NFL dudes. My wife was another who loves watching Kaitlin and WNBA was the last thing on her mind with 3 football games on the screen. Yet, we were watching WNBA on Tues/Wed….the numbers indicate that many others were in this same boat.

Again, I think this is a network scheduling thing rather than a WNBA thing made before they knew what they had. 3pm on a Sunday is the absolutely worst time to start a game to go up against the NFL with everyone digging into the 2H of all the 1pm games. Honestly, 3pm could be the worst time for this reason. You have to capture the viewer before they are settled in….maybe a noon start to keep attract viewers prior to NFL and to retain for the 2H before their football Sunday kicks into gear, I dunno.
 

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There's definitely room for a 7pm slot on Sundays, given how much shorter basketball games are. Start it with very little pregame at 7, and by the time the pregame for the SNF game kicks off at 8:30, you're well into the second half, probably in the 4Q by the time they kick off. You can squeeze a featured game in there, I think. Just not a quadruple-header. Maybe they'll do that in later rounds with only one game a night to show.
 

riboflav

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Been saying it for years. Noon (an hour before the 1pm NFL games) and 7:30 (just after the late games have wrapped) are the way to go. 3pm is the NFL witching hour and 8:30 is 15 minutes after SNF kicks off. It's ratings suicide. Hopefully, the W understands this and now has some leverage to get the Dis network to adapt. I get that noon is tough bc ESPN doesn't want to adjust their pregame show but can the W not go on ABC at that hour? The 3pm game this Sunday is on ABC.
 

riboflav

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Witherspoon out as coach of the Sky after one season is something. Apparently, no one told their stars this was coming as Reese had quite the understandable reaction. And, I thought Miller being fired two seasons into a complete rebuild was weird.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Been saying it for years. Noon (an hour before the 1pm NFL games) and 7:30 (just after the late games have wrapped) are the way to go. 3pm is the NFL witching hour and 8:30 is 15 minutes after SNF kicks off. It's ratings suicide. Hopefully, the W understands this and now has some leverage to get the Dis network to adapt. I get that noon is tough bc ESPN doesn't want to adjust their pregame show but can the W not go on ABC at that hour? The 3pm game this Sunday is on ABC.
Why do they even have to have multiple slots on a Sunday? 7pm Sunday, 7pm Monday when all eyes will be on the latter? There is no reason to compete w NFL and I believe Saturday is contractually filled w CFL. What is wrong w crushing viewership on weeknights?
 

riboflav

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Why do they even have to have multiple slots on a Sunday? 7pm Sunday, 7pm Monday when all eyes will be on the latter? There is no reason to compete w NFL and I believe Saturday is contractually filled w CFL. What is wrong w crushing viewership on weeknights?
They don't. I'd avoid Sundays but they seem insistent. I mean I get that Sundays are a big tv-watching day in America but still.
 

reggiecleveland

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Are we looking at the same numbers? Game 2 nearly doubled the viewership of the Game 1 that went up against the NFL while not capturing a new audience. Small sample and all but I messaged 8-9 people in my Discord if they watched Game 1 as a survey and not a single person did…..they either forgot it was on while getting caught up in the NFL at 3pm or didn’t even know it was on. Some of them are probably reading this right now and can confirm.

I’m assuming this was a network slot thing that they already had in place pre-Caitlin (deserved) hype and not the WNBA but that was not good for the sports exposure for a wider audience.
Def wishful thinking on my part.
 

scottyno

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Why do they even have to have multiple slots on a Sunday? 7pm Sunday, 7pm Monday when all eyes will be on the latter? There is no reason to compete w NFL and I believe Saturday is contractually filled w CFL. What is wrong w crushing viewership on weeknights?
7pm Monday is competing with the NFL
 

HomeRunBaker

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7pm Monday is competing with the NFL
Not really. MNF begins at 8:20pm. You’d have the sports world to yourself for the entire first half and start of the 3Q. If the game is intriguing a certain pct will finish watching the game they are already engaged in. It sure beats Sun at 3pm when people already watching NFL are not leaving it just when everything is heating up.
 

scottyno

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Not really. MNF begins at 8:20pm. You’d have the sports world to yourself for the entire first half and start of the 3Q. If the game is intriguing a certain pct will finish watching the game they are already engaged in. It sure beats Sun at 3pm when people already watching NFL are not leaving it just when everything is heating up.
You still wouldn't because you're up against baseball, and monday night coutndown which by itself will outdraw almost any wnba game. There's no time when they can have the sports world the themselves, something else will always be bigger.
 

riboflav

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You still wouldn't because you're up against baseball, and monday night coutndown which by itself will outdraw almost any wnba game. There's no time when they can have the sports world the themselves, something else will always be bigger.
Are MLB regular season games bigger? I imagine next year playoffs on a Tuesday night, Clark and even teams like the Liberty and Aces, would easily outdraw an MLB game. I thought I heard on the radio that Tuesday Night Baseball this season was drawing 365k viewers. EDIT - Indeed, Sun/Fever did almost 3 million the other night.
 

riboflav

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Liberty handled Vegas pretty easily this afternoon. Lead was as much as 18 early in the third and although the Aces did get as close as 6 (?) New York were never really in danger. Stewart- Ionescu-Jones is such a good core. They are a pleasure to watch.
 

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Liberty handled Vegas pretty easily this afternoon. Lead was as much as 18 early in the third and although the Aces did get as close as 6 (?) New York were never really in danger. Stewart- Ionescu-Jones is such a good core. They are a pleasure to watch.
For sure…Stewart hit 34 pts…amazing!

The Sun emerged the winner in this evening’s game. They did it in part by keeping Collier to under 20 points. Fun games!
 

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AT was great at the end. Doing AT stuff. But man if the Sun pull off the upset, they’re probably getting destroyed in the Final in terms of games like 3-0 or 3-1. Their defense and tenacity will allow them to be competitive in those games.
 

riboflav

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Also kudos to local hero Burton for playing down the stretch and having the key assist to AT. And Dallas let her go and Mabrey too. Lol. The Wings are a dumpster fire.
 

BaseballJones

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AT was great at the end. Doing AT stuff. But man if the Sun pull off the upset, they’re probably getting destroyed in the Final in terms of games like 3-0 or 3-1. Their defense and tenacity will allow them to be competitive in those games.
The Sun statistically are one of the best defensive teams in the WNBA, but man at times their defense looks godawful. And they take some dum dum shots. But Mabrey is exactly what they needed and AT is a beast. But they really need Jones to step up - she's been absolutely awful in the playoffs. Even going back to their last regular season game (which was kind of like a playoff game as it had huge seeding implications), here's her last four games:

4 points, 0-2 fg, 2 rebounds
4 points, 2-7 fg, 5 rebounds
8 points, 3-8 fg, 1 rebound
6 points, 3-7 fg, 2 rebounds

So in her last four games, she's averaged 5.5 points, 2.5 rebounds, and is shooting 33.3% from the floor. That is from their WNBA all-star forward/center. They will absolutely need her to play much, much better if they want to have any chance of winning it all (narrator: it won't matter...they can't beat NY anyway).

Bri is an absolutely delightful person and an incredibly hard worker and a great story, and normally she's solid as a rock for them, but she's been very bad lately and it's a huge problem. She is dealing with a shoulder injury that isn't talked about much, so I wonder how much that's impacting her. And she is also coming off a terrible Achilles tear from last year and I wonder if she's getting worn down.
 

amh03

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Jones' last good game was mid-September against the Mercury...I think she's playing hurt right now...
 

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LV-NY basically trading the lead for most of the first half - Ionescu just hit a 3 to put Libs up by 6.

Stewart has been forcing it imo- tossed up some awkward shots in the paint.

Going deeper into the bench- Thornton Burke VdSloot all getting meaningful minutes, Jones sitting for a long stretch
 

epraz

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I was there, my first WNBA game. Electric atmosphere.

They also showed Melo, Lisa Weatherspoon, Alicia Keys on the big screen.
 

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The Liberty are playing very well. They seem to have a size advantage over other teams, and Ionescu has an ability to just dial it up when she needs to.
 

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I was there, my first WNBA game. Electric atmosphere.
Right?

Ofc it helps that the on-court product is so good, and that this is the year that the W is taking off- but the organization does a great job with managing the game experience (A/V, Ellie, etc) and the fan base is as vocal and dedicated as any I’ve seen in a lifetime of following sports.

it really is spine tingling at big moments.
 

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The Liberty are playing very well. They seem to have a size advantage over other teams, and Ionescu has an ability to just dial it up when she needs to.
Stewart and Jones handle, pass, and move like guards, in very big bodies. They can also hit the 3 well enough to give defenders problems.

It really is a pleasure to watch the execution of their offense. At their best they remind me of peak 80s Celtics teams.
 

BaseballJones

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Jones' last good game was mid-September against the Mercury...I think she's playing hurt right now...
That’s got to be it, because she put up another horrific performance last night. 14 minutes, 2 points, 2 rebounds, 1-3 from the floor.

She’s an all-star. She’s playing like a total benchwarmer. I have to believe she’s playing hurt. No other real explanation.

I do know she’s dealing with a shoulder issue. I just didn’t think it was as bad as it apparently is.

The Sun have no shot if this is all she can give them.
 

amh03

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Had plans last night so just finished watching the Sun/Lynx game…Jones had a much better game, but Collier is just outstanding! Game 4 is a must win for the Sun to keep their season going…not sure whether they’ll be able to pull it off.

Starting the Liberty/Aces game now…must win for Aces…
 

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The Liberty have not had their asses kicked like that in a long time. Very interested to see how they respond.
 

amh03

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Quite a game for the Liberty…they earned it!!
 

amh03

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Wow…what a great game for the Sun!! They took over in that 2nd half - both on defense & offense!!

Harris…damn! Sure needed her tonight!!
 

BaseballJones

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Mohegan was rocking tonight. Great environment. Good win by the Sun...excellent second half. I don't see AT hitting those same shots in game 5 that she did tonight, however. Hopefully they don't need her to.
 

amh03

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Bummed about the Sun but the Lynx earned the trip to the finals. Honestly, the way the Sun have played since the Olympic break, I was surprised we got to a Game 5. They willed themselves to that with the win on Sunday. It was just a combination of missed opportunities and great play by Collier and the team which solidified what I’d expected to be the outcome.

Now, onto Liberty/Lynx…should be a really good series. Don’t the Lynx have the edge for the season? I feel as if the Liberty are just so focused, though…
 

BaseballJones

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Last night was about Courtney Williams and Marina Mabrey, I thought.

Williams, because she went OFF for Minnesota, especially in the first half (6-6), and Mabrey, because she got injured and only played 14 minutes. The Sun desperately missed her shooting and scoring ability. And she was heading towards a huge game (3-5, 2-4 from three, 8 points) before getting hurt. And Veronica Burton is a nice role player and defender but can’t even come close to what Mabrey brings to the table. Burton went 1-7 from the floor in extended minutes.

So the Lynx getting a stellar performance from a player who runs hot and cold (Williams) and the Sun getting little from the player they needed to have a big game (Mabrey, due to injury), was the difference, IMO.

Collier was going to get hers. She’s one of the five best players in the world.

I don’t think, for the record, that you’ll see Williams do anything like this against the Liberty. She may have a couple of 14 point games but she won’t go bonkers like this in the finals.
 

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Bummed about the Sun but the Lynx earned the trip to the finals. Honestly, the way the Sun have played since the Olympic break, I was surprised we got to a Game 5. They willed themselves to that with the win on Sunday. It was just a combination of missed opportunities and great play by Collier and the team which solidified what I’d expected to be the outcome.

Now, onto Liberty/Lynx…should be a really good series. Don’t the Lynx have the edge for the season? I feel as if the Liberty are just so focused, though…
Yup, good effort by the Sun considering the rough patches of the 2nd half of the season.

My wife is convinced this team will look VERY different next year, as running back this core has seemed to hit a ceiling (besides the Mabrey addition which was a shot in the arm). AT, Bonner and Jones are all UFAs. Bonner is going to turn 38 y.o. next season, she's been durable as hell but her outsized role at that age is going to get rough in the relatively near future. Then you have to wonder with Bonner in the league only so much longer, are she and her recently-engaged partner AT a package deal now and want to sign with the same team? Their only players currently under contract for 2025 are Mabrey, Harris and Nelson-Ododa. On top of that, "we" always brace ourselves for the larger market/city having the edge for FAs over the outpost of Uncasville if the money is similar. See Tina Charles, Jonquel Jones, etc.

Based on their relative lack of FA wins, the Sun's strategy has been to trade draft capital for veteran players. I'm curious if they'll go that direction again this offseason, or they'll identify Mabrey and Carrington as the main cogs going forward and draft frontcourt bodies hoping that one of them emerges. Carrington is an absolute defensive stopper and her counting stats have progressed big time, but the offensive efficiency still isn't great. I'm also curious how her distributor/assist abilities could develop in an offense not dominated by AT handling the ball. I want the franchise to do everything possible to keep Alyssa Thomas, but definitely have concerns noted above.
 

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Last night was about Courtney Williams and Marina Mabrey, I thought.

Williams, because she went OFF for Minnesota, especially in the first half (6-6), and Mabrey, because she got injured and only played 14 minutes. The Sun desperately missed her shooting and scoring ability. And she was heading towards a huge game (3-5, 2-4 from three, 8 points) before getting hurt. And Veronica Burton is a nice role player and defender but can’t even come close to what Mabrey brings to the table. Burton went 1-7 from the floor in extended minutes.

So the Lynx getting a stellar performance from a player who runs hot and cold (Williams) and the Sun getting little from the player they needed to have a big game (Mabrey, due to injury), was the difference, IMO.

Collier was going to get hers. She’s one of the five best players in the world.

I don’t think, for the record, that you’ll see Williams do anything like this against the Liberty. She may have a couple of 14 point games but she won’t go bonkers like this in the finals.
That's funny, as I thought Natisha Hiedeman was the replacement for most of Courtney Williams' production on the Sun when Williams left after 2019, but that never came to pass. And they are both on the Lynx now, with Hiedeman dropping further on the depth chart as time goes on.
 

BaseballJones

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Yup, good effort by the Sun considering the rough patches of the 2nd half of the season.

My wife is convinced this team will look VERY different next year, as running back this core has seemed to hit a ceiling (besides the Mabrey addition which was a shot in the arm). AT, Bonner and Jones are all UFAs. Bonner is going to turn 38 y.o. next season, she's been durable as hell but her outsized role at that age is going to get rough in the relatively near future. Then you have to wonder with Bonner in the league only so much longer, are she and her recently-engaged partner AT a package deal now and want to sign with the same team? Their only players currently under contract for 2025 are Mabrey, Harris and Nelson-Ododa. On top of that, "we" always brace ourselves for the larger market/city having the edge for FAs over the outpost of Uncasville if the money is similar. See Tina Charles, Jonquel Jones, etc.

Based on their relative lack of FA wins, the Sun's strategy has been to trade draft capital for veteran players. I'm curious if they'll go that direction again this offseason, or they'll identify Mabrey and Carrington as the main cogs going forward and draft frontcourt bodies hoping that one of them emerges. Carrington is an absolute defensive stopper and her counting stats have progressed big time, but the offensive efficiency still isn't great. I'm also curious how her distributor/assist abilities could develop in an offense not dominated by AT handling the ball. I want the franchise to do everything possible to keep Alyssa Thomas, but definitely have concerns noted above.
My thoughts on the Sun overall....

Mabrey is perfect for this team. Having a whole season of her will help a lot. Carrington is vastly improved and can do it all, but she still thinks she's an Alpha scorer, like she did when she was at Baylor, and needs to be a more willing passer. But she's become a cornerstone piece for sure. She would also be incredible trade bait if they wanted to start over and add high first round draft picks.

Nelson-Ododa improved from last year but she'll never be more than a backup in the WNBA. She can be a solid backup but a backup nonetheless. Still, will be nice to have her around next year. Harris improved a lot from last year too and she'll continue to grow as a player.

I really don't want them to blow it up, but I think it may be time to. I think the core with a healthy Mabrey could have made it to the finals but they weren't beating NY, so they'll have to really think this over. I would not ever want to let AT go, and I don't know that AT would prefer to go somewhere else, but yeah, she and Bonner may be a package deal. But in the WNBA, numerous players are married to each other and the players go on different teams, so it wouldn't be crazy for Bonner to be one place and AT another. All depends on what they want. They likely can pick their destination, depending on a given team's cap space. Since they're free agents, the Sun can't really add anything if they simply choose to sign elsewhere. It's not like they can trade them and get something good in return. All they get in return is cap space, so then it's a matter of looking at the FA list.

Unfortunately, it's not a list that gives me hope, for various reasons. I'd love for them to bring Jones back (because I really love her as a person and player...I'm a huge fan) and that might happen...who knows. Probably more likely that they re-sign AT and Bonner and let Jones go. But some players I'd love to see on CT next year (Stewie obviously but she's not leaving NY so no need to list her):

- Kelsey Plum (love her game but I think she stays with Vegas)
- Gabby Williams (obvious UConn connections and she's a "do it all" player)
- Satou Sabally (she'd be a great fit here and is just 26 years old)

So I think the Sun are in trouble long-term, unless they re-sign their core. But if they re-sign their core, while they'll be a very good team, they still won't have enough to get over the hump and win a title, IMO. So they're in a tough spot.
 

amh03

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Great assessment, @BaseballJones...thank you! I always learn from your contributions here!!

This being my first year watching as closely as I have, I'm hoping that they resign AT & Bonner...I like Jones too! I really love watching Carrington play and Mabrey was a super addition!

How is the addition of the new expansion team going to alter what existing teams can/will want to do? Does each team have to offer up someone or do they have to "protect" players from being pulled? This might be something for an off-season thread (can we support more WBNA-related threads, lol?)....

Anyway...looking forward to Thursday!!
 

BaseballJones

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Great assessment, @BaseballJones...thank you! I always learn from your contributions here!!

This being my first year watching as closely as I have, I'm hoping that they resign AT & Bonner...I like Jones too! I really love watching Carrington play and Mabrey was a super addition!

How is the addition of the new expansion team going to alter what existing teams can/will want to do? Does each team have to offer up someone or do they have to "protect" players from being pulled? This might be something for an off-season thread (can we support more WBNA-related threads, lol?)....

Anyway...looking forward to Thursday!!
Thanks! My understanding of the expansion rule is that each team can protect six players, and the rest are up for grabs. But obviously you can't protect your free agents. So the Sun will protect Carrington, Mabrey, Olivia, and Harris, but I don't know who else.
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
11,650
Thanks! My understanding of the expansion rule is that each team can protect six players, and the rest are up for grabs. But obviously you can't protect your free agents. So the Sun will protect Carrington, Mabrey, Olivia, and Harris, but I don't know who else.
You can protect free agents because Golden State is allowed to draft them any 1 free agent currently tied to a team and gain whatever rights they have (including the ability to core status them)