2025 Patriots RB Discussion

Deathofthebambino

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It's so hard to look at FA possibilities and the draft completely separately from each other, which seems to be happening with these threads.

Quinn Ewers just declared for the draft, and while I'm not a huge fan, I suspect he'll be shooting up draft boards quickly (most pundits have him as the #4 or #5 QB in his class). People forget he was the #1 QB coming out of high school in a class with Caleb, Maye, McCarthy, etc. and he's got a lot of tape in a lot of big games.

Putting that aside, the questions about the draft vs. free agency seem to be based on which position to attack and where.

It seems to me that there are significantly better OL on the free agent market than in the draft, and WR is a crap shoot on both ends. If It were me, I'd load up the trucks in free agency for offensive linemen, and use the draft to go after skill position players and edge rushers. I'm still not sold on Tee Higgins as a #1. I think he's as good as it gets as a #2, but I don't see him as the guy that bends defenses opening things up for the other receivers, the way Chase does for him, Jefferson does for Addison, Brown does for Smith, etc. But he's going to get massive, massive money (assuming Cincy doesn't hang onto him) as a FA. If you do go get HIggins and you fill the offensive line with free agents, then what?

I'm shocked that folks aren't noting that maybe, just maybe, the return of the running backs is coming sooner than later. Three of the remaining teams, Houston, Philly and Baltimore, all of whom had pretty good offenses went out and got Mixon, Barkley and Henry last offseason. Green Bay went and got Jacobs. Minnesota went and got Aaron Jones. Detroit is rolling with Gibbs who they drafted at #12 overall after signing Montgomery to a 3 year deal. Neither Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson, who will finish 1/2 in the MVP finished in the top 10 in pass attempts this season.

Which brings me to my binky, Ashton Jeanty, who may be one of my favorite college players to ever watch. He's got so much Barry Sanders in him, but he adds receiving and blocking to the mix too. He'll come out of the combine with probably a 40 time in the 4.4-4.5 range, which will put some teams off (he's been clocked at 21.7mph in game, which works out to around a 4.4), and if there is a way to trade down from #4 and pick him up and a receiver early in the 2nd, I'm seriously, seriously considering it. I love this kid.
 

dynomite

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It's so hard to look at FA possibilities and the draft completely separately from each other, which seems to be happening with these threads.

Quinn Ewers just declared for the draft, and while I'm not a huge fan, I suspect he'll be shooting up draft boards quickly (most pundits have him as the #4 or #5 QB in his class). People forget he was the #1 QB coming out of high school in a class with Caleb, Maye, McCarthy, etc. and he's got a lot of tape in a lot of big games.

Putting that aside, the questions about the draft vs. free agency seem to be based on which position to attack and where.
I think this is a good post, I think the challenge is just as you mention is that this is sort of a chicken & egg problem: you can't figure out free agency until you decide what to do in the draft, but it's hard to know how to approach the draft until you see how free agency shakes out.

Many on here doubt that Higgins, Godwin, or Stanley make it to FA. If they don't, all of a sudden this FA class looks a lot different at those positions.

And re RBs, this probably merits its own thread.

I do think it's fair to note, and something Belichick discussed many times in press conferences: if teams are going to play 5 DBs in their base defenses to counter modern passing attacks, mobile QBs and talented RBs are going to have a field day. A challenge there is that Saquon and Derrick Henry are sort of unicorns -- they're among the most talented RBs I've ever seen in the league -- but also both struggled on teams with bad QB and O-Line play, whereas both turned in All Pro level performances when paired with good coaches, good QBs, and good O-Lines. You could say the same about McCaffrey in SF last year.

Obviously I'm not against getting someone like that. If Jeanty is that guy and the Pats grab him, well, they need upper level talent everywhere outside of the QB room. But I will say the Bills (with Cook), the Chiefs (with Pacheco), and the Chargers (Dobbins) have all been successful finding RB talent outside of the best free agents/top of the draft.
 

Cellar-Door

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Jeanty to me is an awful pick for the Patriots....
Yes RBs are making a bit of a comeback, but it's in a very specific situation..... teams with good O-lines. Saquon on the Giants... no real impact, same for Henry when the Titans O-line people thought was washed. A great RB with a really good line is awesome... any of like 40 RBs with a really good line... really really good.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I think this is a good post, I think the challenge is just as you mention is that this is sort of a chicken & egg problem: you can't figure out free agency until you decide what to do in the draft, but it's hard to know how to approach the draft until you see how free agency shakes out.

Many on here doubt that Higgins, Godwin, or Stanley make it to FA. If they don't, all of a sudden this FA class looks a lot different at those positions.

And re RBs, this probably merits its own thread.

I do think it's fair to note, and something Belichick discussed many times in press conferences: if teams are going to play 5 DBs in their base defenses to counter modern passing attacks, mobile QBs and talented RBs are going to have a field day. A challenge there is that Saquon and Derrick Henry are sort of unicorns -- they're among the most talented RBs I've ever seen in the league -- but also both struggled on teams with bad QB and O-Line play, whereas both turned in All Pro level performances when paired with good coaches, good QBs, and good O-Lines. You could say the same about McCaffrey in SF last year.

Obviously I'm not against getting someone like that. If Jeanty is that guy and the Pats grab him, well, they need upper level talent everywhere outside of the QB room. But I will say the Bills (with Cook), the Chiefs (with Pacheco), and the Chargers (Dobbins) have all been successful finding RB talent outside of the best free agents/top of the draft.
I'm not sure I agree that those guys have really struggled with bad OL, QB play in so much as when you're on a bad team, you don't run as much because you're playing from behind.

In the last 6 seasons, Henry has averaged per game the following rushing yards per game numbers, 102.7ypg, 126.7ypg, 117.1ypg, 96.1ypg, 68.6ypg and 113ypg this season. Those first three seasons were with mostly Ryan Tannehill playing QB, and last season, TEN sucked so much he had the least amount of rushing attempts in his career, outside of the first 3, before he was the full time starter (but he still averaged 4.2ypc).

Saquon's entire body of work comes down to injured or not injured, not who was around him. Arguably, his best season until this one was his rookie season on a 5-11 team with Eli Manning playing his final season in the league. The following season with a rookie Daniel Jones, he went for 1,000 yards rushing (4.6ypc), another 438 yards receiving, and only played 13 games due to injuries. Then he battled injuries for 2 years, then he went for 1,312 yards (another 300+ receiving) again with Daniel Jones, then he battled injuries last year, then he went to Philly and went crazy this year.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with McCaffrey, he had 1,300 yards rushing and 1,000 yards receiving in 2019 for a 5-11 Panthers team that had Kyle Allen leading the charge. Then he played a total of 10 games over the next 2 seasons due to injury before being moved midseason to SF. At the time of the trade, he was still averaging 111 yards from scrimmage for Carolina.

I do agree that these guys are unicorns. I think Jeanty could potentially be as good, if not better than some of them. I think he's one of the few backs in recent memory that I would even consider taking in the first round. Dobbins wasn't drafted by SD (Baltimore drafted him in the 2nd and gave up on him for Henry), Pacheco was hurt most of this season and KC was undefeated during most of it and Cook (who I love) is getting the benefit of a great QB and offensive scheme. Dude only got 12.9 carries per game this year.

Jeanty makes no sense if you can't fill out the offensive line, so that has to come first (and my hope is in FA), and if you can get Higgins or someone else via free agency opening the door for another position in the draft, I'm just saying Jeanty is a guy I wouldn't overlook. You put him the backfield, and Higgins out there, it's Jeanty that teams have to focus on giving Higgins the 1on1's he can win, and all of the other pieces begin to get easier to fill in.

I guess what I'm noticing is that when teams have to stack 8 in a box to stop the run, it's opening up everything for the receivers, the same way a true #1 opens up the field for the other receivers. If you aren't happy with the options out there at WR, a unicorn RB can offer a lot of the same benefits. Watching teams try to defend Derrick Henry is literally resulting in Lamar Jackson playing with his food, no matter who is out there catching balls from him.
 
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dynomite

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I'm not sure I agree that those guys have really struggled with bad OL, QB play in so much as when you're on a bad team, you don't run as much because you're playing from behind.

I do agree that these guys are unicorns. ...

Jeanty makes no sense if you can't fill out the offensive line, so that has to come first (and my hope is in FA), and if you can get Higgins or someone else via free agency opening the door for another position in the draft, I'm just saying Jeanty is a guy I wouldn't overlook. ...
I definitely agree with your overall conclusions. What I meant by McCaffrey/Saquon/Henry "struggling" was mostly just that the Panthers/Giants/Titans weren't all that successful despite having them many seasons. In other words, even having a unicorn RB isn't enough unless to win consistently unless you surround them with talent, as you're saying.
 

NickEsasky

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I mean he put up numbers against Mountain West and zombie Pac-12 opponents (Minus Oregon which had the 40th-ranked defense in rush yards per game and 60th in average yards per carry) but averaged 3.5 YPC against Penn State. I am not sure he played enough high level competition to draft him so early.
 

DJnVa

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For those not familiar with my boy (I know there's a lot of folks that don't watch college football much), just watch this kid. He's Barry, with power, same low center of gravity, same insane balance, but a better receiver:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sEGHGgawpg
Completely meaningless info--Jeanty attended the middle school my sister teaches at and my dad was a security officer at. The story goes that 7-8 years ago, there was word that there was some stud MS football player roaming the halls and my dad used to trash talk him that he could beat him in a 100m dash.

Any who, that stud player's dad was in military and got transferred so Jeanty ended up moving. His MS coaches were scared he'd fall through the cracks of recruiting and were going to reach out to Va Tech about him but Jeanty ended up contacting them when he got his first college offer (Dartmouth) to thank them for coaching him. Seems like a good kid.
 

ManicCompression

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Even though he's been a good pro and had a great year this year, I would say that Saquon has not justified being the second overall pick. So if that's the case, I can't imagine Ashton Jeanty could eclipse his impact.

You list a lot of teams that went out and got RBs, but I feel like it's important to point out that a bunch of those RBs (David Montgomery, Derrick Henry, Aaron Jones, Mixon) were all drafted in the second round or later, as were Kyren Williams, Breece Hall, Jonathan Taylor, and many other really good RBs. The talent gap between rounds at that position is just not that great in comparison to other positions, so IMO they should focus elsewhere.
 

RIrooter09

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I wouldn’t want the Pats taking Jeanty at 4. Trade back a little bit and it becomes more palatable.
 

Ale Xander

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I’d much rather draft my binkie Omarion Hampton with a 3rd round pick than Jeanty at 4 overall.
 

dynomite

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Even though he's been a good pro and had a great year this year, I would say that Saquon has not justified being the second overall pick. So if that's the case, I can't imagine Ashton Jeanty could eclipse his impact.

You list a lot of teams that went out and got RBs, but I feel like it's important to point out that a bunch of those RBs (David Montgomery, Derrick Henry, Aaron Jones, Mixon) were all drafted in the second round or later, as were Kyren Williams, Breece Hall, Jonathan Taylor, and many other really good RBs. The talent gap between rounds at that position is just not that great in comparison to other positions, so IMO they should focus elsewhere.
I'm interested to hear others weigh in once they've studied the RB prospects, but my understanding is RB is one of the few deep positions in this year's draft. Omarion Hampton and Kaleb Johnson are beasts at ~6'0", 220, while Dylan Sampson went nuts for Tennessee this season, and Henderson on OSU is supposed to be a great prospect as well.
 

Auger34

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I'm interested to hear others weigh in once they've studied the RB prospects, but my understanding is RB is one of the few deep positions in this year's draft. Omarion Hampton and Kaleb Johnson are beasts at ~6'0", 220, while Dylan Sampson went nuts for Tennessee this season, and Henderson on OSU is supposed to be a great prospect as well.
I know that Kiper has RJ Harvey (UCF RB) after Jeanty, Johnson, Hampton
 

Cellar-Door

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I think you can justify a RB anywhere from the 3rd through UDFA, (I'd prefer 4th or later), but not top 2 rounds. Even the best only return enough value if you have a really good O-line.

Henderson, Sampson, Judkins, Neal, etc. etc.
 

DourDoerr

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Those are impressive Jeanty highlights - really love the straight arm in one of those where he completely buries a guy into the turf. I still say it would be a mistake to go hard on a RB instead of a OL at this point.

First (and the following assumes an above average OL compared with an above average RB), an OL typically lasts longer and that’s important given the long road ahead for this team. So an investment on an OL is a short and long term investment. Also, an OL will help protect the QB on every pass play while also helping an RB during running plays. An RB can obviously help a QB too, but not to the degree that an OL can play after play. Then there are 3-4 positions to fill on the Pats O-line - it’s a lot of draft/FA/trade capital to invest. Accumulating the best talent will take time and you need to start immediately given the stakes with a young QB. Finally, the poor state of the O-line right now will suppress RB production. Jeanty may be exceptional, but he’ll still be undermined by this O Line.
 

BaseballJones

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I see mock drafts (plus using the PFN mock draft simulator) such that the Pats could get T Henderson from Ohio State in the third round. Maybe that's too high to draft him, but interestingly enough, he went in the 3rd round in PFN's mock draft.

"In the latest mock draft from Pro Football Network NFL Draft Analyst Ian Cummings, Henderson went in the third round to the New England Patriots. There were two RBs that went in the first round of this mock, with another four in the second. Here is what Cummings had to say about Henderson and his potential fit with New England.

“If Rhamondre Stevenson doesn’t rebound, TreVeyon Henderson can be New England’s next dynamic three-down presence in the backfield.”"


He's truly explosive, and would give them a home run threat at RB that they presently lack.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Jeanty to me is an awful pick for the Patriots....
Yes RBs are making a bit of a comeback, but it's in a very specific situation..... teams with good O-lines. Saquon on the Giants... no real impact, same for Henry when the Titans O-line people thought was washed. A great RB with a really good line is awesome... any of like 40 RBs with a really good line... really really good.
Yeah, the RB is coming back if you have an elite back and good+ OL

Investing in an elite back and elite OL seems like a no brainer if they’re out there (which they aren’t)

I don’t think the NFL is moving towards RB’s being more valuable again outside of the 5% of them which are especially talented.

Look at the RB on the Super Bowl winning teams the last 10 years. Guys who were pedestrian (or completely interchangeable) at best for the most part

Henry/Baltimore is a unique situation and Barkley was the 2nd overall pick for a reason.

Take a couple late round fliers or UDFA on some guys and hope one can pan out. Can’t be worse than the Hasty/Jennings of the world. Stevenson shouldn’t have been paid but he and Gibson are fine for 2025.

In specific situations, drafting a RB early makes sense - if they’re the final piece of the puzzle and can (or project to) be a big passing game weapon a la Gibbs. Otherwise, hard pass on a top 150 pick on a RB.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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I'm interested to hear others weigh in once they've studied the RB prospects, but my understanding is RB is one of the few deep positions in this year's draft. Omarion Hampton and Kaleb Johnson are beasts at ~6'0", 220, while Dylan Sampson went nuts for Tennessee this season, and Henderson on OSU is supposed to be a great prospect as well.
It’s a great draft for RB. Doesn’t really help the Pats since they’re in rebuild mode and just extended Stevenson. But if they wanted to waste a pick on a RB, there’s going to be tons of options.

They have two average RB already on the roster and myriad holes to fill. Other than a 6th round flier (where you might still find a useful one dimensional player like a Damien Martinez or Kalel Mullins or an intriguing long shot like Yarns or Tuten), they should avoid the position until they’re closer to a competitive window or Stevenson is off the books.
 

8slim

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I think you can justify a RB anywhere from the 3rd through UDFA, (I'd prefer 4th or later), but not top 2 rounds. Even the best only return enough value if you have a really good O-line.

Henderson, Sampson, Judkins, Neal, etc. etc.
This is where I'm at. It's just not critical to have an "elite" RB and a team should never go chasing one in the 1st or 2nd round. I'm not even sure about the 3rd round, honestly.
 

dynomite

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This is where I'm at. It's just not critical to have an "elite" RB and a team should never go chasing one in the 1st or 2nd round. I'm not even sure about the 3rd round, honestly.
I'm fine with 3rd round. Even 2nd if one of these guys is the best available.

In '22 there were 3 RBs taken in the 2nd round: Breece, KWIII, and James Cook. The 3rd wasn't a 100% hit rate, but Rachaad White and Brian Robinson Jr. were both taken.

Last there the 2nd/3rd round RBs didn't show much: Brooks (who never had a chance with the injuries), Corum, Marshawn Lloyd (who I loved out of USC).

Again, I don't watch much college ball, so I have no idea whether these guys merit the pick and who else will be available, but if this is more akin to 2022 and these guys are "best players available," I would have no problem getting another backfield weapon to help out Maye and the offense.
 

Cellar-Door

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So for some recent examples of later round RBs providing value...
Tyrone Tracy Jr- 5th
Chase Brown, 5th rounder,
Jaleel McLaughlin. UDFA
Jaylen Warren UDFA
Isaiah Pacheco 7th
Kyren Williams 5th
Chuba Hubbard 4th
Rico Dowdle UDFA
James Robinson UDFA
 

sezwho

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This is where I'm at. It's just not critical to have an "elite" RB and a team should never go chasing one in the 1st or 2nd round. I'm not even sure about the 3rd round, honestly.
Yeah, maybe third round for some teams but not this one.

Agree RB maybe undervalued, and the Patriots could use an upgrade, but I’ll give Highsmith another mid round draft and/or FA cycle before using a premium pick when the only thing we have in excess is need.
 

8slim

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I'm fine with 3rd round. Even 2nd if one of these guys is the best available.

In '22 there were 3 RBs taken in the 2nd round: Breece, KWIII, and James Cook. The 3rd wasn't a 100% hit rate, but Rachaad White and Brian Robinson Jr. were both taken.

Last there the 2nd/3rd round RBs didn't show much: Brooks (who never had a chance with the injuries), Corum, Marshawn Lloyd (who I loved out of USC).

Again, I don't watch much college ball, so I have no idea whether these guys merit the pick and who else will be available, but if this is more akin to 2022 and these guys are "best players available," I would have no problem getting another backfield weapon to help out Maye and the offense.
In all honesty, I'd lose my shit if this team takes a RB in the 2nd round. Like full blown fit.
 

Cellar-Door

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Rham is gonna be here next year, contract basically guarantees it.

It think the ideal plan is probably to add a passing down vet in FA, then in the draft grab one late rounds if you see one, then add an UDFA, best 2 of those 3 make the roster.
 

Dogman

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In all honesty, I'd lose my shit if this team takes a RB in the 2nd round. Like full blown fit.
Even if in FA the team signs 2 top WR, 2 top OL, a LB, a DL, an Edge, and a CB?

Then drafts an Carter or Graham in the 1st?

Mind you, I'm not pushing for this no matter how DYNAMIC that RB may be. It's not a good use of resources in the 2nd. However, I can see more of a tandem at RB outside of Gibson. But throwing a fit?
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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The one thing I'd add to the mix here is that RB is one of the positions where the right talent translates pretty quickly from the college game to the pros.

Guys need somewhere between a half season to a season to get use to the size/speed of the pro game. And you have to be smart enough to master a pro offense. But that's about it.

Which is a way toward saying that for the hopefully-competing-for-a-championship team that we want to grow into in 3-4 years, there's not a ton of value to drafting a RB this year vs. next year vs. the year afterward. If a RB is one of the last pieces you add, instead of one of the first, there's no real downside there.
 

8slim

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Even if in FA the team signs 2 top WR, 2 top OL, a LB, a DL, an Edge, and a CB?

Then drafts an Carter or Graham in the 1st?

Mind you, I'm not pushing for this no matter how DYNAMIC that RB may be. It's not a good use of resources in the 2nd. However, I can see more of a tandem at RB outside of Gibson. But throwing a fit?
Yeah that’s fair. If we literally address all of our other needs in free agency then I guess a second round RB is OK. Aside from that happening, I’ll be pissed. Very pissed.

I just philosophically don’t think a team needs to take a RB before round 3.
 

j44thor

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I do hope they take an RB on day 3 because the day 3 RBs this year would have been day 2 RBs this past year. This is a really deep RB group so you will be getting quality RBs in round 4/5 at a much higher rate than last year. The RB/WR classes of 24/25 are almost exact opposites. The top RB in 24 Brooks probably isn't a top 6 RB this year and the top WR in 25 Tet/Hunter is probably outside the top 4-5 WR in 24.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah that’s fair. If we literally address all of our other needs in free agency then I guess a second round RB is OK. Aside from that happening, I’ll be pissed. Very pissed.

I just philosophically don’t think a team needs to take a RB before round 3.
I actually would still think it was bad, because FA are gonna be old. This team needs young talent badly. Passing up a potential 5-9 years of impact player at a more important position for a RB is still terrible value to me.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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Yeah, I mean-- if the OTs in this draft are 3-4 years from being close to their professional peak, then signing someone like Ronnie Stanley is not a reason to pass on drafting an OT in the first two rounds.

Edit: meaning: Stanley is going to be out of the league by the time an OT we draft this year is all the way down the learning curve, if not before
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Even if in FA the team signs 2 top WR, 2 top OL, a LB, a DL, an Edge, and a CB?

Then drafts an Carter or Graham in the 1st?

Mind you, I'm not pushing for this no matter how DYNAMIC that RB may be. It's not a good use of resources in the 2nd. However, I can see more of a tandem at RB outside of Gibson. But throwing a fit?
Sure in a fantasy world where they literally sign 5 impact starters in FA and actually are able to open a competitive window, perhaps a dynamic RB in round 2 would merely be bad instead of abhorrent.

I think if they were drafting bottom of the 2nd instead of top 40 it would maybe be slightly more palatable

In the real world, where their off-season haul is likely to be a bunch of 1 year retreads and some other teams backups hoped to be starters and maybe a semi washed veteran WR like Brandin Cooks, I don’t see how a RB makes sense

I don’t think there’s any semi-realistic off-season scenario where this team goes into draft day with a playoff contending type roster though so it’s kind of a moot point. Absent a pure special teams guy or a QB, I can’t think of a worse use of a top 40 draft pick for this team than a RB
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Or if they trade down twice and end up with 3 second rounders between 37 and 47 or whatever?
If you’re passing up a Carter or Graham (or Hunter/Johnson/McMillan whomever), taking a bunch of bites of the proverbial apple makes sense if you’re hitting critically important positions. Not wasting those picks on RB.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I mean he put up numbers against Mountain West and zombie Pac-12 opponents (Minus Oregon which had the 40th-ranked defense in rush yards per game and 60th in average yards per carry) but averaged 3.5 YPC against Penn State. I am not sure he played enough high level competition to draft him so early.
Talk to me about Marshall Faulk in the WAC or the Big 12s version of defense when Tomlinson was at TCU. Where did Josh Allen come from?

Some dudes just have it. I think Jeanty is one of them, but it's an opinion.

And guys, I've never said take him at #4, and all of my posts started by saying I'd get Higgins and shore up the line in FA first. But if you can do that, trade down some spots and grab him, I'd consider it. A better offensive line, a receiver like Higgins and a back like Jeanty instantly makes this offense dangerous if Maye keeps developing the way he has .

I like the idea far more than using the #4 on another warm weather receiver from Arizona who can't get separation, but ymmv.

Rhamondre is a JAG. He'll get what's there, but will almost never get you more than that.
 

BigSoxFan

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Jeanty is a tremendous talent and I absolutely despise Stevenson at this point. Feels like a Dallas Cowboys move. Dowdle did fine this year but a talented RB would make that offense much better.

My questions with Jeanty are about pass catching and workload. His passing game usage was minimal this year - possibly because they were busy running him into the ground, which is my other concern. He’s coming off a season with almost 400 touches in 14 games. That’s a ton.
 

Dogman

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Sure in a fantasy world where they literally sign 5 impact starters in FA and actually are able to open a competitive window, perhaps a dynamic RB in round 2 would merely be bad instead of abhorrent.

I think if they were drafting bottom of the 2nd instead of top 40 it would maybe be slightly more palatable

In the real world, where their off-season haul is likely to be a bunch of 1 year retreads and some other teams backups hoped to be starters and maybe a semi washed veteran WR like Brandin Cooks, I don’t see how a RB makes sense

I don’t think there’s any semi-realistic off-season scenario where this team goes into draft day with a playoff contending type roster though so it’s kind of a moot point. Absent a pure special teams guy or a QB, I can’t think of a worse use of a top 40 draft pick for this team than a RB
I'm not saying that will happen, but it's not out of the realm of possibility given the amount of money they must spend. It's very unlikely, but the team could end up overpaying for a few top tier players on the OL and WR and then fill in some of the other holes.

I also did say using a 2nd on a RB is not the best use of resources, but, As T4W mentioned, if there are trade backs that land an extra 2nd or 3rd, a RB is not out of the question there and would not be a waste of that slot on a RB.

I seriously doubt given the money the team must spend that all signings are 1 year retreads and backups. That will not meet the 4 year revolving threshold of cap spend. I get that you feel like that is what the team did this past year, but I disagree that the team will do similar things this year. One year's FA and draft does not mean the team will do the same thing in year 2 of a rebuild. I know you hate Kraft and are dissatisfied with what you feel is his doing, but that's simply not reality.

I get that your fantasy land is operating on the debit side of the ledger, but for the rest of us, not one person is talking about being a playoff type roster on draft day. Let's see what happens.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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And guys, I've never said take him at #4, and all of my posts started by saying I'd get Higgins and shore up the line in FA first. But if you can do that, trade down some spots and grab him, I'd consider it. A better offensive line, a receiver like Higgins and a back like Jeanty instantly makes this offense dangerous if Maye keeps developing the way he has .
Jeanty is so much fun to watch. My heart would love to have him on the Pats the same way it would love to have Tyler Warren on the Pats. Both would make our offense more dynamic and exciting and unpredictable, which is all for the good

My head says that he's probably not the best value for a high draft pick, for all the boring reasons that my head comes up with these things. And my head may be right.

But the heart wants what the heart wants.

Not going to criticize you for dreaming the dream.
 

Jungleland

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Jeanty would have been a fun thought experiment in the version where they had first pick and theoretically were looking at a haul to drop to 10 or so. Obv at 4 without as much to gain from a trade back it should be a non starter barring maybe a straight flush in FA.

That said, would not be bothered if they used a second on an rb if the board shook out in such a way where that was clear BPA. This team needs talent, great RBs elevate their offenses, and I suspect that best RB available at that spot or even trading back a little is going to be among the safest picks on the board.
 
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I'm not saying that will happen, but it's not out of the realm of possibility given the amount of money they must spend. It's very unlikely, but the team could end up overpaying for a few top tier players on the OL and WR and then fill in some of the other holes.

I also did say using a 2nd on a RB is not the best use of resources, but, As T4W mentioned, if there are trade backs that land an extra 2nd or 3rd, a RB is not out of the question there and would not be a waste of that slot on a RB.

I seriously doubt given the money the team must spend that all signings are 1 year retreads and backups. That will not meet the 4 year revolving threshold of cap spend. I get that you feel like that is what the team did this past year, but I disagree that the team will do similar things this year. One year's FA and draft does not mean the team will do the same thing in year 2 of a rebuild. I know you hate Kraft and are dissatisfied with what you feel is his doing, but that's simply not reality.
I’ve already made it clear and stated explicitly I don’t hate Kraft

As for their off-season approach, it would be quite easy to spend a lot of money on short term and low end fixes.

For example, I would consider Robert Woods, Mike Williams or DeAndre Hopkins to be short term. I would consider the Nick Westbrook-Ikhine’s of the world to be backups. There’s really only two needle mover WR (Higgins and Godwin) and I doubt either hits unrestricted free agency. Same at OT. It will be easy to spend 60-70M total on a bunch of mediocrities and bandaids.

I get that your fantasy land is operating on the debit side of the ledger, but for the rest of us, not one person is talking about being a playoff type roster on draft day. Let's see what happens.
Not sure why you feel necessary to make this personal. My point was quite clear, a running back is a total waste of a draft pick unless it’s the final piece for a team in a playoff contending window

Running back is such a devalued position, it doesn’t matter how good that prospect is as BPA, it’s better to try to replace the Demontray Jacobs, Pharms, Ekuale types of the world with actual NFL rosterable talent instead of finding a marginal upgrade from Gibson/Stevenson to someone else.

The roster is bad with holes everywhere. I don’t think that’s a fantasy land conclusion. One spot where they actually have mediocre talents is RB. Also one of those guys was just extended.

They should be throwing as many darts at the OL, front 7, WR and secondary as possible because actual holes exist there.

Lastly, RB’s are almost never worth a 2nd contract. The Pats need to hope for at least one or two draft picks who can actually get second contracts to build some sort of sort of nucleus.

A late round pick? Sure. Anything before the 5th round? It will be frustrating to say the least.
 

DourDoerr

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Running back is such a devalued position, it doesn’t matter how good that prospect is as BPA, it’s better to try to replace the Demontray Jacobs, Pharms, Ekuale types of the world with actual NFL rosterable talent instead of finding a marginal upgrade from Gibson/Stevenson to someone else.

The roster is bad with holes everywhere. I don’t think that’s a fantasy land conclusion. One spot where they actually have mediocre talents is RB. Also one of those guys was just extended.

They should be throwing as many darts at the OL, front 7, WR and secondary as possible because actual holes exist there.
+1. The argument (if I’ve read it correctly) to use hypothetical extra early rd picks on a RB makes little sense to me. Given the low talent level this team rolls out a multiple critical positions, possessing any extra 2nd rd (or 3rd or 4th) pick and not addressing those needs seems like a dubious strategy to me. The RB room is one of the few position groups that's in decent shape right now. Priority should be given to stabilizing other position groups.
 

Dogman

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I’ve already made it clear and stated explicitly I don’t hate Kraft

As for their off-season approach, it would be quite easy to spend a lot of money on short term and low end fixes.

For example, I would consider Robert Woods, Mike Williams or DeAndre Hopkins to be short term. I would consider the Nick Westbrook-Ikhine’s of the world to be backups. There’s really only two needle mover WR (Higgins and Godwin) and I doubt either hits unrestricted free agency. Same at OT. It will be easy to spend 60-70M total on a bunch of mediocrities and bandaids.



Not sure why you feel necessary to make this personal. My point was quite clear, a running back is a total waste of a draft pick unless it’s the final piece for a team in a playoff contending window

Running back is such a devalued position, it doesn’t matter how good that prospect is as BPA, it’s better to try to replace the Demontray Jacobs, Pharms, Ekuale types of the world with actual NFL rosterable talent instead of finding a marginal upgrade from Gibson/Stevenson to someone else.

The roster is bad with holes everywhere. I don’t think that’s a fantasy land conclusion. One spot where they actually have mediocre talents is RB. Also one of those guys was just extended.

They should be throwing as many darts at the OL, front 7, WR and secondary as possible because actual holes exist there.

Lastly, RB’s are almost never worth a 2nd contract. The Pats need to hope for at least one or two draft picks who can actually get second contracts to build some sort of sort of nucleus.

A late round pick? Sure. Anything before the 5th round? It will be frustrating to say the least.
I haven't made it personal. I responded in kind.

Moreover, we agree and disagree on things. What you think will happen in FA and the draft in 2025 is based on what happened in 2024. I don't think 1 year is indicative of how they will operate moving forward.

I've suggested throwing as many darts at the board as possible in FA and the draft. There are a number of potential FA that could end up on this team by overpaying. The team has the money so it is not impossible to envision some top tier FA landing here. You disagree. No problem.

I am not advocating that spending a second or third on a RB is the way forward. However, once day 2 of the draft is here, this roster will look different than it does today and the team may feel it is worth the pick in that spot given the number of hole that are potentially filled.

Again, let's see what happens.
 

dynomite

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I actually would still think it was bad, because FA are gonna be old. This team needs young talent badly. Passing up a potential 5-9 years of impact player at a more important position for a RB is still terrible value to me.
They should be throwing as many darts at the OL, front 7, WR and secondary as possible because actual holes exist there.
This is an interesting discussion to follow from afar, glad it's split out into a new thread.

Ultimately though I think many of you have made the point persuasively elsewhere that the team can't force it in the draft.

Just because the Patriots need OL, it's risky to draft for need and pick an OL if there's no quality OL prospect at their draft spot.

Perhaps like @Dogman, my feeling is a) the Patriots need to rebuild the entire roster, and b) they are desperately short on top-end talent.

If there's an impact RB available in the 3rd round I'm fine grabbing him and benefitting from explosive talent at that position for the next 5ish years instead of grabbing a backup Guard who'll be cut in two years.

Take the 2022 draft. The Patriots took Tyquan Thornton at 51st overall. Picked in that range at various positions (and of course, we have no idea where they were ranked on the Pats board) were:

WR: George Pickens, Alec Pierce and Skyy Moore.

OL: Cam Jurgens, Luke Goedeke, Ed Ingram, Luke Fortner

TE: Trey McBride, Jelani Woods

RB: James Cook

DE: Sam Williams, Drake Jackson

LB: Troy Andersen, Nik Bonitto

I picked that as an illustration because so many of those other picks turned into extremely valuable players (ugh). So I'm interested to know who, with the benefit of hindsight, folks would take. Jurgens, a Pro Bowl Center? McBride, a Pro Bowl TE? Cook, a Pro Bowl RB? Bonitto, a Pro Bowl LB? Pickens, a talented but headcase WR?

It's almost a rhetorical question, of course, because it depends on who else is available on the existing roster and in free agency, where the biggest weaknesses are on your team, etc.
 

Cellar-Door

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This is an interesting discussion to follow from afar, glad it's split out into a new thread.

Ultimately though I think many of you have made the point persuasively elsewhere that the team can't force it in the draft.

Just because the Patriots need OL, it's risky to draft for need and pick an OL if there's no quality OL prospect at their draft spot.

I picked that as an illustration because so many of those other picks turned into extremely valuable players (ugh). So I'm interested to know who, with the benefit of hindsight, folks would take. Jurgens, a Pro Bowl Center? McBride, a Pro Bowl TE? Cook, a Pro Bowl RB? Bonitto, a Pro Bowl LB? Pickens, a talented but headcase WR?

It's almost a rhetorical question, of course, because it depends on who else is available on the existing roster and in free agency, where the biggest weaknesses are on your team, etc.
See I think that is a great example... there is no way you pick Cook out of that group to me. I think you probably take Goedke (a good starting OT), but there is a good case for McBride or Pickens.
Even in that draft for example, a better RB got taken in the 5th, and a bunch of pretty good or better RBs went 3rd-5th.
 

bakahump

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Personally I think Jeanty is amazing and can see why @Deathofthebambino is enamored. However, I think, ironically enough, Deaths first few posts of justification are reasons why Jeanty is too risky.

"Saqoun was awesome then hurt then hurt then awesome". "MCcaffrey was awesome, got hurt, was awesome then got hurt then was awesome again"

Just too much risk in the RBs