2025 PGA Tour

cshea

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Starts tonight in Kapalua. Early big story is Scheffler sliced his hand open during Christmas and had surgery. Supposedly out 3-4 weeks.

Schedule:

Jan 5 - The Sentry
Jan 12 - Sony Open
Jan 19 - Amex
Jan 25 - Farmers Insurance Open
Feb 2 - AT&T Pebble Beach Pro Am
Feb 9 - Waste Managment Phoenix Open
Feb 16 - Genesis Invitational
Feb 23 - Mexico Open
Mar 2 - Cognizant Classic
Mar 9 - Arnold Palmer invitational
Mar 9 - Puerto Rico Open
Mar 16 - The Players Championship
Mar 23 - Valspar Championship
Mar 30 - Texas Children's Houston Open
April 6 - Valero Texas Open
April 13 - Masters
April 20 - RBC Heritage

April 20 - Corales Puntacana Championship
April 27 - Zurich Classic of New Orleans
May 4 - CJ Cup Byron Nelson
May 11- Truist Championship
May 11 - Myrtle Beach Classic
May 18 - PGA Championship
May 25 - Charles Schwab Challenge
Jun 1 - Memorial Tournament
Jun 8 - RBC Canadian Open
Jun 15 - US Open
Jun 22 - Travelers Championship

Jun 29 - Rocket Mortgage Classic
Jul 6 - John Deere Classic
Jul 13 - Genesis Scottish Open
Jul 20 - Open Championship
Jul 20 - Barracuda Championship
Jul 27- 3M Open
Aug 3 - FedEx St Jude Championship
Aug 10 - BMW Championship
Aug 24 - Tour Championship
 
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voidfunkt

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They really need an early season event that matters. I like watching the WM for the insanity but it's March before any tournaments of substance show up.
 

cshea

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Don't know how much it matters but January weekends are dominated by the NFL. The only signature event is the Pebble pro-am which is the week between the conference championship games and the Super Bowl. The ratings aren't good anyway but putting a signature event where the sponsor has ponied up big bucks up against NFL playoff games I'd imagine doesn't return much on the sponsor's investment.
 

joe dokes

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Given the time difference, there's always a window, even with the NFL on, to catch some of it. And who doesn't want to watch a little Hawaii on TV when home in NE in January?
A no-cut signature event is interesting. Is expanding the tournament beyond last year's winners a new thing?
 

cshea

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This is the 2nd year of the expanded field, they updated it when they changed to the signature event model. It is all winners plus the top 50 on the FedEx Cup points list from the prior year. Essentially everybody who qualified for the 2nd playoff event.

Kapalua is a great watch for golf fans. It's prime time on the East, it's a fun course to watch the pros play in a beautiful setting. But it'll get destroyed by the NFL on Saturday and Sunday even with the time difference.
 

wonderland

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That’s why I don’t understand why they don’t finish on Monday. A lot of guys skip the next tourney and the ones that play, it’s not that far away. Seems like a missed chance.
 

cshea

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I don't have an Athletic subscription so I'm not sure if there are additional details in the article, but they are reporting that the Tour is looking to change the format for the Tour Championship to a "bracket style" event as early as this season.

View: https://twitter.com/GabbyHerzig/status/1875240483527749742


I've always thought they should use the staggered start, play stroke play for 36 holes, then the top 4 advance to match play for the $. Preferrably under the lights in prime time.
 

jercra

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I don't have an Athletic subscription so I'm not sure if there are additional details in the article, but they are reporting that the Tour is looking to change the format for the Tour Championship to a "bracket style" event as early as this season.

View: https://twitter.com/GabbyHerzig/status/1875240483527749742


I've always thought they should use the staggered start, play stroke play for 36 holes, then the top 4 advance to match play for the $. Preferrably under the lights in prime time.
The match/showdown show how much playing under the lights sucks. Moving to the West Coast is a possible option, but there are also lots of reasons not to move from East Lake. The logistics are very difficult, and lining up the money to pay for the event outside of ATL is very not easy. The event also gives loads of money to that area.

Straight up match play isn't going to happen. There's never enough action in match play when there aren't a bunch of matches going on and they rarely go 18 holes. That makes it a really tough sell for both the networks and onsite hospitality. Imagine paying a lot of money for corporate hospitality on the 18th hole only to have the match end on 16. That would not be well received.
 

LogansDad

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The match/showdown show how much playing under the lights sucks. Moving to the West Coast is a possible option, but there are also lots of reasons not to move from East Lake. The logistics are very difficult, and lining up the money to pay for the event outside of ATL is very not easy. The event also gives loads of money to that area.

Straight up match play isn't going to happen. There's never enough action in match play when there aren't a bunch of matches going on and they rarely go 18 holes. That makes it a really tough sell for both the networks and onsite hospitality. Imagine paying a lot of money for corporate hospitality on the 18th hole only to have the match end on 16. That would not be well received.
I wonder if something like a modified Skins format for the final 18 or 36 holes would be more entertaing?
 

cshea

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The match/showdown show how much playing under the lights sucks. Moving to the West Coast is a possible option, but there are also lots of reasons not to move from East Lake. The logistics are very difficult, and lining up the money to pay for the event outside of ATL is very not easy. The event also gives loads of money to that area.

Straight up match play isn't going to happen. There's never enough action in match play when there aren't a bunch of matches going on and they rarely go 18 holes. That makes it a really tough sell for both the networks and onsite hospitality. Imagine paying a lot of money for corporate hospitality on the 18th hole only to have the match end on 16. That would not be well received.
If there is one thing the Tour is great it, it's telling fans whil all new ideas can't work instead of actually trying to improve their product.
 

deadbeef

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Moving to the West Coast is a possible option, but there are also lots of reasons not to move from East Lake. The logistics are very difficult, and lining up the money to pay for the event outside of ATL is very not easy. The event also gives loads of money to that area.
Why are the logistics difficult and what is the lack of money on the west coast?
 

jercra

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Why are the logistics difficult and what is the lack of money on the west coast?
There are literally dozens of full semi trucks worth of equipment between the broadcast and Shotlink that need to be moved, unloaded, and set up across many acres of land. That takes a horde of people and a lot of time and planning. There are also over 1000 volunteers at each event that need to be found, outfitted, trained and managed. Doing this at first time courses or outside the normal scheduling window of a tour event is a difficult process.

On the money side, the title sponsor, most of the major sponsors, and most of the high-end hospitality are local to the event. First time locations would require finding replacements for all of those and that's challenging.

None of this is to say it can't be done. The BMW moves around. It's just very challenging and having back-to-back events that move around makes it even more challenging.
 

jercra

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If there is one thing the Tour is great it, it's telling fans whil all new ideas can't work instead of actually trying to improve their product.
Well, that's not what I was trying to do at all. I was just trying to provide information on why this particular idea is challenging. I would love for many things to change in many aspects of life, but they aren't all practical.

To add, one idea the fans put out is to have a 36 hole match on Sunday for the finals. Doing that in August at East Lake is just a bad idea because it's very hot and humid on a very hilly course where thunderstorms are almost guaranteed to interrupt the event. That means moving to a different venue. See my other post about why that's challenging.
 

cshea

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Yeah, sorry. I'm just feeling frustrated and falling more and more adrift from the Tour. I'd clasify myself as a diehard and so fasr through 3 tournaments on the year I've watched maybe 15 total minuites. Not because I've been busy but because I haven't been interested, and that makes me sad to some degree. It also makes me wonder how other fans, especially causual ones have felt.
 

jercra

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I hear you. Changes are coming, and some will likely be dramatic. Some will be good, some will not.

Match play is awesome when there are lots of matches being played that have meaning beyond money and FedEx Cup points, or when in team events where people care about the teams (Ryder Cup, Presidents Cup, NCAA Championships, etc.). When it's 1 vs 2 with a bunch of consolation matches on the course you end up with less golf on TV which means it will feel like more ads and more commentators yapping away, because no one cares about 7 vs 8. This is true not just of golf. Does anyone watch consolation games in any sport without some human drama aspect?
 

cshea

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I hear you. Changes are coming, and some will likely be dramatic. Some will be good, some will not.

Match play is awesome when there are lots of matches being played that have meaning beyond money and FedEx Cup points, or when in team events where people care about the teams (Ryder Cup, Presidents Cup, NCAA Championships, etc.). When it's 1 vs 2 with a bunch of consolation matches on the course you end up with less golf on TV which means it will feel like more ads and more commentators yapping away, because no one cares about 7 vs 8. This is true not just of golf. Does anyone watch consolation games in any sport without some human drama aspect?
Yeah, I get the product suffers late in match play events because of all the downtime. I do think they can make the consolation matches interesting though. In the specific case of the Tour Championship, they are distributing all the bonus money. While there is a Championship match for 1st and 2nd, make 3 vs. 4, 5 vs. 6 (or however matches they deem necessary to fill air time around the Championship) play for those money slots. Gives the players a reason to play and actually compete unlike the consolation in the defunct match okay tournament. Maybe nobody will care but having a match for $500,000 or something as the consolation seems workable.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Yeah, sorry. I'm just feeling frustrated and falling more and more adrift from the Tour. I'd clasify myself as a diehard and so fasr through 3 tournaments on the year I've watched maybe 15 total minuites. Not because I've been busy but because I haven't been interested, and that makes me sad to some degree. It also makes me wonder how other fans, especially causual ones have felt.
I was a diehard fan for a long time and haven't watched even 15m in the past 2-3 seasons combined. If I reflect on why, I think it's because most of the players are so vanilla these days and boring af to watch. I don't even know that it's the tours fault to some degree.
 

jercra

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I was a diehard fan for a long time and haven't watched even 15m in the past 2-3 seasons combined. If I reflect on why, I think it's because most of the players are so vanilla these days and boring af to watch. I don't even know that it's the tours fault to some degree.
None of this is meant to be an excuse, but it's always important to remember that the TOUR is not like other leagues. In this case, the players are also the owners, and they are all, to some degree, basically equal in the weight of their opinions. The top 20 players have very different motivations than the bottom 25 players. A guy who just got his card at 38 just wants to make the most he can in the couple of years he has it. He doesn't care about the TOUR 10 years from now, or his legacy. There are plenty of guys who know they are not likely to be playing in the big money events. There are many who know they aren't playing in the opposite events. Getting them to all agree on something, especially big things, is really hard and leads to lots of compromises that don't make sense as a consumer of the product or when thinking about making structural changes for the future. If you think of things like changing the format of the Tour Championship, there may be guys who were previous winners who think making big changes devalues their previous win, or guys who won a lot finishing in the top 10 who feel like something like match play would make that much less likely. The players also very much are, for the most part, very good at golf but not very good at business/media. LIV basically is what it is because guys like Phil don't understand how media rights work. Again, it's not meant as an excuse, just info to explain some of the complexity.
 

jercra

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Eagle3

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JT and Billy Horschel did their best to make last night's TGL broadcast entertaining, but Patrick Cantlay and Cam Young were so vanilla and boring they sucked the life out of the whole match. Obviously a completely different atmosphere than a regular Tour event, but it was a perfect example of how much personality can make a difference.
 

cshea

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Not a great field but final round at Torrey is underway. Wind is blowing, if carnage is your thing. Only 3 players under par on the day.
 

mauf

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I hear you. Changes are coming, and some will likely be dramatic. Some will be good, some will not.

Match play is awesome when there are lots of matches being played that have meaning beyond money and FedEx Cup points, or when in team events where people care about the teams (Ryder Cup, Presidents Cup, NCAA Championships, etc.). When it's 1 vs 2 with a bunch of consolation matches on the course you end up with less golf on TV which means it will feel like more ads and more commentators yapping away, because no one cares about 7 vs 8. This is true not just of golf. Does anyone watch consolation games in any sport without some human drama aspect?
Isn’t this true for every tournament though? By the back nine on Sunday, there are seldom more than 3 or 4 players with a realistic chance to win the tournament. The coverage focuses on those players, but they fill time with coverage of other guys playing out the string for prize money and FedEx points. I don’t see how match play would be different — except for the risk that the final match is a rout and gets closed out after 12 or 13 holes, which is a real concern, but probably shouldn’t be enough by itself not to try new ideas at a time when the Tour’s popularity is waning.
 

TFP

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Yeah, sorry. I'm just feeling frustrated and falling more and more adrift from the Tour. I'd classify myself as a diehard and so far through 3 tournaments on the year I've watched maybe 15 total minutes. Not because I've been busy but because I haven't been interested, and that makes me sad to some degree. It also makes me wonder how other fans, especially casual ones have felt.
Ding ding ding. I was about as hardcore a fan of the Tour as you could get, and I really couldn't be bothered anymore. I flipped on the Farmer's this weekend, tried to watch like 10 minutes of coverage and it was just as boring and lifeless and commercial-ridden as usual and I gave up pretty quickly. I'm obsessed with golf and watched a ton of TV this entire weekend and it couldn't remotely capture my attention. The blatant middle finger from the Tour and its broadcast networks (mostly NBC and Golf Channel) over the last 3 years has made me realize that I have way more entertaining things to watch and it is silly to spend my time on this, as I really don't enjoy the product whatsoever.
 

jercra

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Isn’t this true for every tournament though? By the back nine on Sunday, there are seldom more than 3 or 4 players with a realistic chance to win the tournament. The coverage focuses on those players, but they fill time with coverage of other guys playing out the string for prize money and FedEx points. I don’t see how match play would be different — except for the risk that the final match is a rout and gets closed out after 12 or 13 holes, which is a real concern, but probably shouldn’t be enough by itself not to try new ideas at a time when the Tour’s popularity is waning.
If there weren't many years of the Dell Match Play to refute the idea, I might tend to agree. But there are. No one cares about consolation matches. They care even less than other possible feel good stories of guys like Joel Dahmen getting a top 10 at Farmers, even though he had no chance of winning. There's also continuity of watching someone's full 72 holes that has some attraction over one partial round with little to no meaning.

As to how big of a deal it is for a final match to go only 12 holes, it could not be bigger. Just selling the onsite hospitality to the major sponsors becomes impossible. Who's going to pay millions to sit on 16-18 green and see, well, nothing? And for TV, if the tour adapts something like no commercials for the last 60 minutes and there is no last 60 minutes, that's going to be very hard to sell. Imagine if baseball had a 10 run rule but only during the World Series. It would never fly.

Now, there are solutions. There are other forms of match play that mean all 18 holes get played and ways to make loser brackets that aren't head to head. If those options are available, it will be close to best of both worlds. Time will tell.
 

jercra

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Ding ding ding. I was about as hardcore a fan of the Tour as you could get, and I really couldn't be bothered anymore. I flipped on the Farmer's this weekend, tried to watch like 10 minutes of coverage and it was just as boring and lifeless and commercial-ridden as usual and I gave up pretty quickly. I'm obsessed with golf and watched a ton of TV this entire weekend and it couldn't remotely capture my attention. The blatant middle finger from the Tour and its broadcast networks (mostly NBC and Golf Channel) over the last 3 years has made me realize that I have way more entertaining things to watch and it is silly to spend my time on this, as I really don't enjoy the product whatsoever.
Can I ask.what would have made it exciting or engaging for you, other than the obvious "fewer ads"?
 

cshea

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Back to back weeks there's been shitty fields and final round pace of play approaching 6 hours. Yes it was windy and tough but can't have that.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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I don't really know what people expect the Tour to do to make things more interesting. It's just reverted to what the game is without Tiger Woods carrying it.

Kind of related: is the field really "shitty" when the talent level is so bunched together? A bunch of the big names from the previous decade are kind of washed / declining anyway.
 

kenneycb

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There were 2 players (Sungjae & Keegan) in the top 40 of OWGR in the Top 31. 4 (Pendrith & Detry) in the top 60 of OWGR if you expand it out. 10 of the top 12 were 100+ in OWGR.

That wasn't talent bunched together - it was a shit leaderboard.
 

TFP

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Can I ask.what would have made it exciting or engaging for you, other than the obvious "fewer ads"?
This tournament on this course with this field? Absolutely nothing. I turned on the TV and the leaderboard was Harris English and 4 guys I didn't know and the broadcast was on playing through. I might have audibly laughed and said "what the fuck?" out loud.

The question to the Tour should be why should I care or watch this tournament? What about any of this week's product is engaging or interesting or worthy of my time as a golf fan after enduring the last 3+ years of professional golf?
 

cshea

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Speaking of slow play, apparently the Tour is looking to test out allowing players to use range finders.

View: https://twitter.com/Daniel_Rapaport/status/1884667018743603496


I personally don't think it'll speed play up at all. The problem isn't the time it takes to get a yardage it's the time it takes the players/caddies to talk it through, make a decision and pull the trigger. Getting a yardage is only a time issue if the player is way off line and somewhere they haven't marked up in their book and have to walk it off.

The PGA Championship already allows them so they should have some data on it.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Range finders won't change anything. Pros don't care about distance to pin, they care about distance to cover hazards and back of green. Also wind plays a huge factor in club selection. If the tour could find a way to give them this information quickly, then there would be less caddy/player interaction.
 

cshea

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I saw one sugestion around that if they allow range finders they should ban yardage books. Thought that was interesting though I haven't completely through through all the implications of that.
 

jercra

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Range finders won't change anything. Pros don't care about distance to pin, they care about distance to cover hazards and back of green. Also wind plays a huge factor in club selection. If the tour could find a way to give them this information quickly, then there would be less caddy/player interaction.
They all get very detailed course books with all of that information in it. Their caddies also mark those books up with even more info. They all know it and probably have a pretty good idea of what they're going to do before they get to the ball. The problem is, as with all golf, it only takes a couple of slow players or a few weird/bad situations (like the 13 on PGA West) to bog down the whole course. Slow play is a tough problem, throughout golf, not just on tour, but it's especially bad during tournament play. I've very rarely played in a tournament where the groups move at the same pace as in non-tournament play. Guys just grind and think "take your time". And they aren't playing for their livelihoods.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
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I saw one sugestion around that if they allow range finders they should ban yardage books. Thought that was interesting though I haven't completely through through all the implications of that.
...why do this?

Edit: also, after almost no thought, that feels like the most 2025 solution ever. Instead of the info you want on a piece of paper how about a chunk of technology that costs several hundred dollars to give you different information. I'm sure the range finder industry would love it though. $$$

Double edit: I'm remembering now there are some people who are cranky about yardage books and anything more than visually judging distances. They might be OK with a bush at 150 yards or something. Those people should be shepherded off to retirement homes.
 
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cshea

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It's admittedly something I didn't think through entirely. The thought was that allowing range finders wouldn't speed up play because everyone will use the laser and yardage books and it'll slow things down even more. Take away the yardage book and it's less data for them to process. Of course it probably also leads to worse golf being played and more strokes means more time.

There was some interesting slow play talk on the NLU show this week with a couple of the Tour officials. The Tour does use Shotlink to time players. They share the data with the players every week. Apparently if a player gets 10 time infractions, they get a significant fine ($50,000 according to TC), but they don't make those fines (or any discipline) public. They also view this season as a bit of a bridge year in that some of the changes with fewer tour cards and reduced fields across the board will improve pace of play. There are obviously slow players but a big issue is that there's so many players on the course at any given time. Thursday/Friday they go off in threesomes in 11 minute intervals. All it takes is 1 ruling or 1 bad hole for a guy (the 13 at Amex) to slow everyone else down. When they have smaller fields in twosomes, the guys fly. The rulings are unavoidable but perhaps there's a way to streamline or have the players take more ownership in routine drops instead of just calling over an official. That would probably involve updating the rule book which is a larger undertaking.
 

jercra

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The reduced field sizes next year will help some, but it will still be threesomes and 2 tee starts at 11 minutes. The smaller field sizes are much less about speeding up play than they are about finishing rounds in one day and not needing lots of restarts. While slow play doesn't hurt the TV product much, it's pretty bad for the in-person experience and rough on the players themselves. However, if you give them choice between having fewer opportunities to play (even smaller fields), or keeping the current pace, I know what they'll choose. A shot clock solves nothing and is virtually impossible to implement practically. As @cshea mentioned, it's not really slow players that are the problem. It's that any disruption to pace impacts the entire course. You can't force the players to take a ruling without a rules official and possibly be DQed. You can't have a triple max score or something silly like that. It really is just a complicated problem.

Taking away the yardage book will do nothing good for pace. The caddies would just have to pace everything off instead of having it at their fingertips. The range finders help in only a very few specific situations, like if you're WAY off the intended line and don't have anything in your yardage book.
 

joe dokes

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Anecdotally, it seems that out of the 150 or so players that regularly play tour events (not all every week, of course) there's no more than 20 true "slow" players (maybe fewer), as opposed to just "golf things" that slow things down. They absolutely should be called out publicly when fined. The tour already says, if you can't walk the course, you can't play; if you show up late, you can't play; if you are unable to putt without anchoring the putter to your chest, you can't play. Well, if you can't play without needing a new battery for the sundial, you can't play. Give a guy a month off to work on his pace of play.
 

Average Reds

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Anecdotally, it seems that out of the 150 or so players that regularly play tour events (not all every week, of course) there's no more than 20 true "slow" players (maybe fewer), as opposed to just "golf things" that slow things down. They absolutely should be called out publicly when fined. The tour already says, if you can't walk the course, you can't play; if you show up late, you can't play; if you are unable to putt without anchoring the putter to your chest, you can't play. Well, if you can't play without needing a new battery for the sundial, you can't play. Give a guy a month off to work on his pace of play.
Agree with the bolded.

Patrick Cantlay has been a prime offender in recent years. If the announcers this week at Pebble Beach are correct, he has taken great pains to speed his game up in response to the criticism.

Naming and shaming works.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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The Tour seems to have finally realized that most people who watch this tournament don't want to watch hours of the amateurs playing. Saturday used to be a shitload of amateur coverage, but now the pro-am ends Friday.
Look at you actually being able to watch this! The PGA Tour currently has its product hidden behind a Golf Channel pay wall.