30 for 30
- Thread starter CJM
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Apologies for the Christmas Eve necro bump, but Comcast subscribers with access to On Demand might like to know that 30 for 30 is available now free of charge. I just watched Four Days in October with my dad. I don't have cable, so the only other documentary I have seen is the excellent bio on Marcus Dupree (which I caught On Demand over Thanksgiving). I look forward to catching up on Without Bias, June 17th 1994, and the rest of the series throughout the week.
Happy holidays, SoSH.
Happy holidays, SoSH.
Yup. I just watched the Four Days one as well. Now onto the June 17 1994 one. After this, probably going into Dupree or another I haven't seen yet.
Sounds like Chris Herren is getting his own 30 for 30, at least I think.
http://www.projo.com/news/bobkerr/kerr_column_20_02-20-11_47MJEJS_v21.193fdaa.html
Fall River Dreams is one of my favorite books ever.
Hock also did the 30 for 30 "The Best That Never Was" about Marcus Dupree.
Bumping this thread for the Fab Five. It's an interesting topic, but there is some bad advance reviews. Chris Webber refused to participate and it mostly ignores all the NCAA violations. It did, however, start with pictures of the removed banners rolled up in storage at a U of M basement.
Jimmy King just called christian Laettner a bitch. This might be my favorite of the EPSN films already...
I know , this in perfect time for a potential Duke/Michigan tourney match up
Laettner made those five bitches his bitches.
What a dynasty the Fab Five were--none in a row. I wonder how many teams managed to win that many championships?
When is the 30 for 30 on Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley or the the 91 Duke team?
I'd rather have a championship than a 30 for 30.
That being said, I'd rather have Chris Webber's 250 mil than either.
That being said, I'd rather have Chris Webber's 250 mil than either.
Jalen Rose was the primary producer on this.
It's amazing how much colllege hoops has changed (part of the relevence of this doc). No way Hill and Laettner are still around college for their junior and senior years. Hurley would have been (amazing anyone drafted him). Howard and Webber would ahve been gone after one year, as well
It's amazing how much colllege hoops has changed (part of the relevence of this doc). No way Hill and Laettner are still around college for their junior and senior years. Hurley would have been (amazing anyone drafted him). Howard and Webber would ahve been gone after one year, as well
Chris Webber, Howard, Jalen Rose 430 million career earnings - Hurley, Hill, Laettner 208 million. That being said looking back I have no problem with Michigans Fab Five going to 2 Final Fours and one of the most recognizable college instead of being some NCAA champion no one remembers. Not that a championship wouldnt have been great, but what I think the point of the documentary is, sometimes the jounrney getting there can be more meaningful than the actual destination. This was the bball I grew up following and they were a blast to be a fan of.
Bobby Hurley had a car accident which killed pro career before it really got started, similar to Jay Williams' motorcycle accident. Not a lot of good luck following Duke guards born and raised in New Jersey.
uh, thanks. I know the story. Hurley would not ahve been able to play in the NBA as more than a backup. Too small and couldn't shoot it well enough. great college player
Duke hasn't really sent any guards of note to the NBA, right? Maybe Irving this eyar will be the first
Duke hasn't really sent any guards of note to the NBA, right? Maybe Irving this eyar will be the first
JJ Redick has had an okay career thus far after it looked like he would be out of the league in his first 2 years.
True on Redick, but for better or worse, thus far the Duke guard from the Coach K era who has had the best career in the NBA was Johnny Dawkins, and he was a good not great NBA player.
Don't think anyone ever called the Fab Five a "dynasty," and their relevance to the history of college bball and reason for being the subject of this doc wasn't dependent on them winning championships. Or at the very least, winning those two title games.
Its really too bad C Webb refused to take part in this and still refuses to tell what actually happened between him and Martin and him calling the TO.
I thought it was pretty fair overall. Wish Webber participated, but they did an excellent job.
I thought that was well done, particularly liked the interviews with each of the players. They each came off as pretty decent human beings. Weber being interviewed would have totally screwed that vibe.
If Weber had been interviewed, all you would have got on the timeout was that he didn't know they were down to zero and that someone on the bench was calling for the TO. They guys on the court, absent him, seemed to know and were pretty clear about it. If you look close Weber actually starts to signal for a TO once he got the rebound before he traveled, so he was confused the whole time.
And cut out the Duke whining, they clearly gave Duke props for being the better team that season. Want to see an example of freshman folding, look up Hurley's stats in the NCAA tourney when they got stomped by the Runnin Rebels. I'd like to see the therapy bill on the kid for the summer following that tournament.
If Weber had been interviewed, all you would have got on the timeout was that he didn't know they were down to zero and that someone on the bench was calling for the TO. They guys on the court, absent him, seemed to know and were pretty clear about it. If you look close Weber actually starts to signal for a TO once he got the rebound before he traveled, so he was confused the whole time.
And cut out the Duke whining, they clearly gave Duke props for being the better team that season. Want to see an example of freshman folding, look up Hurley's stats in the NCAA tourney when they got stomped by the Runnin Rebels. I'd like to see the therapy bill on the kid for the summer following that tournament.
Webber was the only one of the five who was guilty of NCAA violations. Louis Bullock, Robert Traylor and Maurice Taylor came a few years later.
UNLV made Hurley shit his pants. Literally. The shots of him running back and forth from the bathroom should have made it into "One Shining Moment" that year but sadly, they missed the cut.
Webber was an odd kid. I remember interviewing him after a state tournament game his senior year. He was kind of beyond his years, above all the attention. I don't think he enjoyed the journey the way his teammates did. He was friends with some of the Detroit kids from the AAU games (which were big here), but he went to an elite private school that for whatever reason decided it wanted a state championship basketball team year after year. He was smart, probably felt a lot of resentment coming from a relatively poor family and being surrounded by a lot of wealth.
I wish the documentary had focused a little more on the Watson/Martin arrangement.
Rose was a good kid, too. I first saw him play as a high school sophomore. Just a freakish talent on a freakishly talented team. I didn't talk to him, Watson wasn't keen on having his players interviewed. Easily (and I mean easily) the best pure shooter I've ever seen at that level. Perry Watson was the coach at Southwestern, and he had a factory there. The community was very much invested in that team, and when they found a kid they thought could play at the 6th or 7th grade level, they'd find him an "uncle" in the Southwestern district. Sometimes the family would move. It was considered an honor to be tapped by Watson. He's just one of those guys who can communicate with anyone. I think he genuinely cared about his players, genuinely wanted to be an ambassador for Detroit and give these kids a future. Southwestern had ten times the talent of any school it played for a few years there, but they didn't play a street game. If someone didn't run the play right, Watson had plenty of guys who would. They would play 12-13 kids in all but the biggest games.
(side note: DCDS and Southwestern were both state champions in 1991 - they played in different levels, Southwestern being a very large school and DCDS being in the second-largest category - Southwestern won the Class A state title Rose's junior and senior years - before that they were runners-up seven times in eight years).
I believe most of what they said about Martin's involvement. But there was a disconnect between the amount of money some of those players allegedly took and the "maybe a couple of thousand" comment. I don't know that the truth has ever been established. I believe that Martin and Watson made sure that every kid who worked hard and stuck with the program could eat and had shoes and clothing. We're talking about a relatively clean-cut group of black kids from one of the toughest places in the country. I don't know where the trash-talking Rose came from - I don't think Watson would have allowed that (and yes, he did move on to be an assistant at Michigan after his best class graduated, people said that was the price for delivering Rose, but I kind of doubt that, I think Watson was just done at the high school level and wanted to try and make a college career).
The racist shit early in the documentary was upsetting. I loved the Fab Five. The baggy shorts and the image wasn't contrived. The game was changing with them. I think they were just following Michael Jordan very closely, who had been in the league a few years by then.
My friends from Michigan never made idiotic comments like that. My dad certainly didn't, and we went to games from the time I was very little. It was absolutely remarkable the way they came along. They were starting four of the five for most of that season, and mostly it was just shock that the kids were so much better than the juniors and seniors. Michael Talley was the Michigan Mr. Basketball two years earlier. He was a big deal on that team. I hope the racism was overstated for the sake of the story. The Bill Walton clip was hilarious.
Don't mean to write a novel here. I enjoyed the look back. I wish we could put the banners back, but I don't think the documentary was completely honest about the money.
I wish the documentary had focused a little more on the Watson/Martin arrangement.
Rose was a good kid, too. I first saw him play as a high school sophomore. Just a freakish talent on a freakishly talented team. I didn't talk to him, Watson wasn't keen on having his players interviewed. Easily (and I mean easily) the best pure shooter I've ever seen at that level. Perry Watson was the coach at Southwestern, and he had a factory there. The community was very much invested in that team, and when they found a kid they thought could play at the 6th or 7th grade level, they'd find him an "uncle" in the Southwestern district. Sometimes the family would move. It was considered an honor to be tapped by Watson. He's just one of those guys who can communicate with anyone. I think he genuinely cared about his players, genuinely wanted to be an ambassador for Detroit and give these kids a future. Southwestern had ten times the talent of any school it played for a few years there, but they didn't play a street game. If someone didn't run the play right, Watson had plenty of guys who would. They would play 12-13 kids in all but the biggest games.
(side note: DCDS and Southwestern were both state champions in 1991 - they played in different levels, Southwestern being a very large school and DCDS being in the second-largest category - Southwestern won the Class A state title Rose's junior and senior years - before that they were runners-up seven times in eight years).
I believe most of what they said about Martin's involvement. But there was a disconnect between the amount of money some of those players allegedly took and the "maybe a couple of thousand" comment. I don't know that the truth has ever been established. I believe that Martin and Watson made sure that every kid who worked hard and stuck with the program could eat and had shoes and clothing. We're talking about a relatively clean-cut group of black kids from one of the toughest places in the country. I don't know where the trash-talking Rose came from - I don't think Watson would have allowed that (and yes, he did move on to be an assistant at Michigan after his best class graduated, people said that was the price for delivering Rose, but I kind of doubt that, I think Watson was just done at the high school level and wanted to try and make a college career).
The racist shit early in the documentary was upsetting. I loved the Fab Five. The baggy shorts and the image wasn't contrived. The game was changing with them. I think they were just following Michael Jordan very closely, who had been in the league a few years by then.
My friends from Michigan never made idiotic comments like that. My dad certainly didn't, and we went to games from the time I was very little. It was absolutely remarkable the way they came along. They were starting four of the five for most of that season, and mostly it was just shock that the kids were so much better than the juniors and seniors. Michael Talley was the Michigan Mr. Basketball two years earlier. He was a big deal on that team. I hope the racism was overstated for the sake of the story. The Bill Walton clip was hilarious.
Don't mean to write a novel here. I enjoyed the look back. I wish we could put the banners back, but I don't think the documentary was completely honest about the money.
I only saw the 2nd hour -- I need to go back and watch the whole thing. I was a student at UM at the time (probably the luckiest student on campus -- I was a freshman for the '89 championship, they made the tournament my sophomore year, I was away for a year when they didn't make the tournament, and then when I came back, it was the Fab Five's freshman season). So it was a great trip down memory lane -- reliving a particular time and place.
I definitely sympathize with the players given the level of exploitation of the NCAA. I can see how they'd resent the school, the shoe company and the NCAA making millions upon millions off of them without them getting a cent. In fact, I could see it at the time. And I could also understand the social alienation that they must have felt -- UM is by and large and affluent student body. And while they got their asses kissed a lot, people also treated them kind of like animals in a zoo or something (and most didn't realize that Rose, Webber and Howard were actually enrolled in the College of Literacy, Science and Arts and doing pretty well, as opposed to kinesiology, where most of the jocks are steered). Yet, there's no way they didn't know that's what big-time college sports is all about either, and I'm unsympathetic to Webber's surprise about it (at least as relayed by Albom). And while what I saw did make them look much more sympathetic than maybe they were. I was a little disgusted to see the 4 who participated listed as producers. Kind of takes away from the credibility of the whole thing. Also the whole "in memory" dedication to Ed Martin at the end kind of left me cold.
Also -- Michigan hoops was dirty as far back as the '80s. A member of the '89 team once told me that a lot of the guys on that team scalped their Final Four comp tickets for huge bucks. And that at least half the team was getting paid by boosters, including him. Oddly, he said Glen Rice was one of the few that wasn't -- "you don't ask, you don't get," was his explanation. So when the Fab Five scandal broke after Mo Taylor's SUV flipped over with high-school phenom Mateen Cleaves inside, I was about as shocked as I would have been to hear the sky is blue. Anyone who didn't notice any of this wasn't paying attention.
I definitely sympathize with the players given the level of exploitation of the NCAA. I can see how they'd resent the school, the shoe company and the NCAA making millions upon millions off of them without them getting a cent. In fact, I could see it at the time. And I could also understand the social alienation that they must have felt -- UM is by and large and affluent student body. And while they got their asses kissed a lot, people also treated them kind of like animals in a zoo or something (and most didn't realize that Rose, Webber and Howard were actually enrolled in the College of Literacy, Science and Arts and doing pretty well, as opposed to kinesiology, where most of the jocks are steered). Yet, there's no way they didn't know that's what big-time college sports is all about either, and I'm unsympathetic to Webber's surprise about it (at least as relayed by Albom). And while what I saw did make them look much more sympathetic than maybe they were. I was a little disgusted to see the 4 who participated listed as producers. Kind of takes away from the credibility of the whole thing. Also the whole "in memory" dedication to Ed Martin at the end kind of left me cold.
Also -- Michigan hoops was dirty as far back as the '80s. A member of the '89 team once told me that a lot of the guys on that team scalped their Final Four comp tickets for huge bucks. And that at least half the team was getting paid by boosters, including him. Oddly, he said Glen Rice was one of the few that wasn't -- "you don't ask, you don't get," was his explanation. So when the Fab Five scandal broke after Mo Taylor's SUV flipped over with high-school phenom Mateen Cleaves inside, I was about as shocked as I would have been to hear the sky is blue. Anyone who didn't notice any of this wasn't paying attention.
You forgot the part where Laettner and Thomas Hill regularly engaged in homosexual intercourse with each other.
That's not even talking shit, that's just the truth.
Maybe I'm just being dense, but what exactly are you saying here? That it's better to have never won a title than it is to be a two-time NCAA champion and be gay? Where does sexual orientation enter the equation?
Every time they talked about how "America was afraid of young black men who didn't care what people thought" I kept thinking, no, not really. Wasn't that Georgetown? Most people I knew pulled for the Fab Five - young, old, black, white. Big John Thompson and his inner city kids scared the fuck out of most white folks as I remember.
Whitlock does a great job addressing this and other things. I generally love most things by Whitlock anyway but I thought this article was pretty insightful. Link
Here's two pieces regarding the Duke/recruiting remarks:
Whitlock does a great job addressing this and other things. I generally love most things by Whitlock anyway but I thought this article was pretty insightful. Link
Here's two pieces regarding the Duke/recruiting remarks:
Jesus that's what they thought when they were 18 and weren't sniffed by Duke as some of the top talents in the country. It's so fun to cherry pick comments and twist them without context.
Fwiw, Duke recruited Weber hard, but that kind of makes their point - he was from a two parent home and went to a top prep school. But if you heard the comments on ESPN the next day, they're really not backing off most of that stuff. And calling somebody an "Uncle Tom" is a pretty harsh remark no matter what age.
Long winded "scoreboard" retort. Well played, Mr. Hill.
Really? This is from Chris Webber's blog the DAY AFTER the Documentary aired. And it's him being reflective, not speaking from his 18 year old self.
The black players that Grant Hill mentions in his column (battier, Thoma Hill, etc) were almost all middle-class raised or better, not the inner-city kids. By signaling them out, Hill actually makes Rose's point more salient. The black players on Duke were Uncle Tomish comapred to the kids that went to Michigan. The two gang-bangers I can remember from Duke were Maggette and Avery, both left early and neither was persuaded to stay by K (unlike most evey other player). Was Brand from a bad hood? I don't remember.
"Uncle Tomish"? Uncle Tom is a term who a black man who behaves subserviently to a white man. If people want to criticize Duke for not taking chances with inner city kids that's fine, knock Duke all you want. But I still think those comments aimed at guys like Hill are way out of line.
I was refering to what I thought Rose meant by the comment, that they took only middle class or better black kdis from good families
What the fuck are you talking about? And who gives a damn in any case?
I have no problems with the quote you gave us here. They reflect what the world looked like to an 18 year old Jalen Rose, and the unvarnished honesty is somewhat refreshing. And because he tries to draw contrasts between the programs without loading his comments with judgmental phrases, I can appreciate what he's saying.
However, the phrase "Uncle Tom" is not something to be thrown around lightly. It has a very specific, racially-charged meaning, and its use in the film is not something that this Michigan grad can defend.
I just like bringing it up because it gets Duke fans so upset. You get the fire and the fury that you dare suggest it, followed with a swift "...not that there's anything wrong with that."
Carry on.
Hurley had the flu during the game, but still played through what was obviously a difficult situation--albeit not in a Jordanesque fashion.
FYI BR, the rumors were about Laettner and his roommate Brian Davis, not Thomas Hill as far as I remember.
For better or worse Duke recruited athletes back then that they thought could succeed academically at Duke. If some people want to portray black kids that study and care about getting a good education as "Uncle Toms", that's on them.
And I totally agree with Jason Whitlock's point about the Ewing-era Hoyas--a team I rooted for back in the day. Unfortunately, the closest they got to this sort of documentary treatment was in HBO's doc "Perfect Upset", and that obviously had a huge sting at the end for fans of that team.
What I loved particularly about their success was Thompson's response when he won in 84. One of the reporters, it might have been Packer, asked him something to the effect if he was especially proud to be the first black coach to win a NCAA basketball championship. Thompson replied that he took no special pride in the accomplishment, because to do so would imply that there weren't others before him who were capable of doing what he did who only lacked the opportunity to do so.
I remember some people commenting back then that that answer was "graceless". I thought a better description was honest.
Okay, sorry. I absolutely can see where those guys were coming from regarding their thoughts on Duke. Who wouldn't have a chip on their shoulder? I sound like a broken record at this point but I have a major problem with the remarks aimed at the black Duke players. The term Uncle Tom implies Hill was "less black" or a "sell out to his race" for choosing Duke and I find that an extremely unfair remark by Rose.
That's why most of them majored in sociology, right? Let's be honest. Duke recruited athletes that Mike Krzyzewski thought he could use to win basketball games.
I fail to see what is ignorant about commenting on the fact that it was heavily rumored at the time and since that Christian Laettner and Thomas Hill were gay. But, as I said, carry on.
In addition, I've been told that the phrasing and placement of my comment came off as homophobic. Apologies, that was not the intent. I was attempting to make an (apparently) ham-fisted comparison to the outright homophobia often displayed by Duke fans at the suggestion that Laettner/Hill could be gay to the way they are now up in arms over Jalen Rose's comments. Sincerest apologies.