4 on 5 basketball

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

So someone probably knows more about this than I do, but apparently the new Kings owner is heavily in statistics and pace of play. He is reported to have fired Mike Malone because of his refusal to play the high tempo basketball that is currently favored by statistics, and he hired the guy who coached Grinnell - that's the team that had one player score 138 points in a game - to coach their D-league team, and they run the same system: take 3s whenever possible, press all game, and substitute four or five players at a time.

http://www.businessinsider.com/kings-cherry-picking-4-on-5-experiment-2014-12

But the most, well, intriguing part is that he apparently has asked his coaches to only have 4 people play defense and have the fifth cherry pick or leak out every time.

So I'm wondering - is there some statistical theory behind this strategy? Also, does anyone really think the NBA would let a team have one guy cherry pick an entire game?

It seems that Randadive is going to break this out in a real game (D-League first, I'm sure) at some point soon. Nothing like thinking outside of the box, right? Right?

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Posted this from other thread......

That equation doesn't work in a practical manner as you simply need to retreat one perimeter player to halfcourt once the offensive player attacks the paint with numbers. The man cherry picking would rarely have an uncontested scoring opportunity as it is simple to game plan against. This already occurs much of the time naturally in defensive transition.

That Idea is all one needs to know about this owners understanding of the NBA game.

 

[Blacken]

I think it's a strategy that can work in the D-League. I don't think, for the reasons HRB describes, it'd work at the NBA level.

 

[Kliq]

Vivek doesn't seem to know what he is doing and his wacky ideas don't deserve their own thread.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I thought this was going to be another Rondo thread.

Hang on buddy the night is still young.

 

[moly99]

There's a reason cherry picking hasn't been used much in colleges or the pros: 4 on 5 will frequently give the other team an easy shot too. Meanwhile the cherry picking team is only getting a benefit on turnovers. If the other team scores or fouls (about half of the possessions) you don't get to make a pass to the player at the other end of the court.
 
It does work in middle school and high school ball, though, since teenagers are not as fast, skilled or as well coached as college and NBA players. (Lots of more turnovers, fewer chances to score outside of transition, smaller passing lanes, worse player movement and ball movement and easier outlet passes.) Since Vivek's introduction into basketball was coaching his daughter's high school team that may be where he got the idea from.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Vivek doesn't seem to know what he is doing and his wacky ideas don't deserve their own thread.

I would agree with this but according to Wojo, it's inching closer to reality. Plus, the D-League team is running the Grinnell system, which is not totally dissimilar. They are averaging 112 shots a game (53.7 3P shots) and allow 138 points a game, which presumably means that they often have four or fewer players playing defense on any given possession.

http://www.ridiculousupside.com/2014/12/11/7363739/early-season-review-there-are-glitches-in-the-system-that-need

Oh well, we can always talk about Rondo some more. Think we could trade him for Brady Haslip? He has a 72.3 true shooting % this year and is hitting 54% of his 3P shots.

 

[fairlee76]

I thought this was going to be another Rondo thread.

Me too.  I am sure we'll get there.
 
I think it is beyond time to change the title of the Port Cellar to "where every discussion ends with a Rondo debate."

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Me too.  I am sure we'll get there.
 
I think it is beyond time to change the title of the Port Cellar to "where every discussion ends with a Rondo debate."

Well we could "fake" the 4 on 5 to lull the opponent into believing that we're defending straight up only when Rondo allows his man to waltz past him he can break out. This is actually extremely effective at the lower levels (AAU, HS, Jr HS).

 

[nighthob]

Hang on buddy the night is still young.

Not anymore I'm not.

As for the topic at hand, I suspect that starting every possession from under the basket is going to slow things down a bit.

 

[twothousandone]

My Dad says you don't work hard enough on defense. Lots of times you don't even run down court.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2A194yTWoQ

 

[zenter]

Given the evolution of the game into a <10 ft and >22 ft game over the last 10 years, the 4-on-5 defense would be absolutely destroyed in the NBA. Isn't the 5-man zone considered basically useless to consistently stopping NBA offenses? I can't imagine a 4-man zone trying to handle no less than 2 decent three-point shooters plus 3 other guys.
 
I wonder if this would have some limited effectiveness in the midrange-heavier 70s and 80s, though.

 

[Julius.R]

The point of the Grinnell System (and I'd assume 4 on 5) is to try to discover a metric in which you maximize the number of chances you have (as well as points per chance) in hopes that you will outperform your opponent. As mentioned 4 on 5 can work in Middle and High School, but at higher levels it won't work. It's the same reason Grinnell always wrecks Bible Colleges (while abusing the system with a D1 potential player in Jack Taylor), but always loses out in the first round of the playoffs. I thought they hired David Arseneault Jr. as a way to increase development of 3-point shooters and focus money on more pressing needs. David Arseneault created this system since it was the only way Grinnell would actually be able to really preform and attract students to games. There's a reason why our football team has negative rushing yards, but Ultimate Frisbee, Swimming, and Water Polo are the most successful sports. Academic first D3 schools have to take unique approaches with sports, all the while having fun and trying to break some NCAA record each game.
 
I didn't think Vivek was insane for hiring David Arseneault Jr. since the Rio Grande Valley Vipers hired a coach with a similar 3-point obsession (Nevada Smith). It will be interesting to see where it goes, but it will take a lot of development and change for something like what Vivek has in mind to actually work in the NBA. It has potential, but will need a lot of tinkering.

 

[Blacken]

The Vipers hired Smith with an eye towards developing something that's usable a lot sooner than the Grinnell system, IMO.

 

[Cellar-Door]

The Vipers hired Smith with an eye towards developing something that's usable a lot sooner than the Grinnell system, IMO.

Yeah, though they really were going towards that before they even got Smith.
The Vipers strategy is to get up floor quick so the defense can't set, and only take the highest value shots (3s, particularly from the corner, and shots inside 5 feet). It's a pretty good strategy as long as you make good decisions and space the floor correctly.
 
The Grinnell system is a college only gimmick (low level college at that, it really only works in DIII where the players are terrible). It involves designated shooters, 15 man rotations, full court trapping on every play, and allowing layups to get the ball back. That doesn't work on a number of levels in the NBA. You can't get the possession advantage because the trap doesn't force as many turnovers, also the floor coverage of defenses, difference between top 7 guys and the deep bench, and improved positioning in the NBA would swallow it whole.

 

[Brickowski]

I haven't seen the Vipers play, but it sounds like the system that D'Antoni used in Phoenix.
 
IMHO it's one thing to leak players out on a regular basis, it/s another to defend 4 on 5, which is a losing proposition against good teams.  As for full court trapping on every play, Dr. Tom Davis used 2-2-1 zone traps throughout the game and had considerable success at the major college level.  But I've never seen this tactic  work in the NBA, even though Pitino and others have tried it.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I haven't seen the Vipers play, but it sounds like the system that D'Antoni used in Phoenix.
 
IMHO it's one thing to leak players out on a regular basis, it/s another to defend 4 on 5, which is a losing proposition against good teams.  As for full court trapping on every play, Dr. Tom Davis used 2-2-1 zone traps throughout the game and had considerable success at the major college level.  But I've never seen this tactic  work in the NBA, even though Pitino and others have tried it.

Apparently Arseneault Jr. is having some success at the D-League level, as the Bighorns are now in second place. Of course, running this system in D-League is a lot different than the NBA, where there is a lot more skill and cohesion.

Found this interesting article on the Bighorns' system: http://upsidemotor.com/2014/12/16/interview-reno-bighorns-assistant-coach-scott-schroeder-talks-the-system/. The system is based on the 4-factors, which is to take 3s and shots close to the rim to get the eFG% as high as possible; crash the offensive boards and get the long rebounds; turn the other team over; and convert free throws. Apparently, they have tweaked the system by putting a rim protector at the back end of the press to try to stop some of the easy baskets.

I'm sure it's fun for the fans at least.

 

[BigMike]

The way I view it is if you are not a championship contender then you might as well be as fun as you can be, This clearly has a ton of fun to watch potential

 

[moly99]

Found this interesting article on the Bighorns' system: http://upsidemotor.com/2014/12/16/interview-reno-bighorns-assistant-coach-scott-schroeder-talks-the-system/. The system is based on the 4-factors, which is to take 3s and shots close to the rim to get the eFG% as high as possible; crash the offensive boards and get the long rebounds; turn the other team over; and convert free throws. Apparently, they have tweaked the system by putting a rim protector at the back end of the press to try to stop some of the easy baskets.

I'm sure it's fun for the fans at least.

 
Playing a high press is still very much 5 on 5 basketball, though. High tempo basketball has worked in the past in the NBA, but no sane coach is going to be willing to play 4 on 5.