5 vs 8: Where we discuss the quality (or lack thereof) of NBA Playoff Officiating
- Thread starter PedroKsBambino
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Good God. Giannis was called for 3 fouls in the 1st half.
He wasn't called for a foul that he committed, because the refs inexplicably called it on George Hill instead.
He got to the line after bullrushing a stationary TL, clearly hooked him with his elbow on the way by, foul on TL.
He clearly, and absolutely trucked Grant in the middle of the lane. Grant did nothing but stand there and get clobbered. The ref who made the call said Grant pulled him down, which unless someone is missing eyeballs, did not happen.
The issue isn't the last 2 minutes. The issue isn't a missed 5 second call, or a missed defensive 3 second call, or even 50/50 calls that go the wrong way. I don't even have an issue with the non-flagrant being called on Giannis (i have a bigger issue with Portis knocking TL completely loopy resulting in TL going to the locker room for a concussion check, and not even getting a common foul). I have an issue with blatant, obvious, clear as day fouls being called either the wrong way, or not being called at all, and if Giannis is officiated correctly early in the game, HE"S NOT EVEN IN THE FUCKING GAME for the 38 minutes he played.
That's the issue. Refs miss calls in every game, but the idea that if Tatum played better, we win, while correct, is irrelevant to this discussion. In the context of officiating, Giannis not getting into foul trouble when he should is the bigger issue. Does anyone believe we're even discussing the officiating in the last 2 minutes if Giannis isn't around for the 4th quarter?
All of those second half free throws by the Celtics, and not a single foul was called on Giannis in the 2nd half.
He wasn't called for a foul that he committed, because the refs inexplicably called it on George Hill instead.
He got to the line after bullrushing a stationary TL, clearly hooked him with his elbow on the way by, foul on TL.
He clearly, and absolutely trucked Grant in the middle of the lane. Grant did nothing but stand there and get clobbered. The ref who made the call said Grant pulled him down, which unless someone is missing eyeballs, did not happen.
The issue isn't the last 2 minutes. The issue isn't a missed 5 second call, or a missed defensive 3 second call, or even 50/50 calls that go the wrong way. I don't even have an issue with the non-flagrant being called on Giannis (i have a bigger issue with Portis knocking TL completely loopy resulting in TL going to the locker room for a concussion check, and not even getting a common foul). I have an issue with blatant, obvious, clear as day fouls being called either the wrong way, or not being called at all, and if Giannis is officiated correctly early in the game, HE"S NOT EVEN IN THE FUCKING GAME for the 38 minutes he played.
That's the issue. Refs miss calls in every game, but the idea that if Tatum played better, we win, while correct, is irrelevant to this discussion. In the context of officiating, Giannis not getting into foul trouble when he should is the bigger issue. Does anyone believe we're even discussing the officiating in the last 2 minutes if Giannis isn't around for the 4th quarter?
All of those second half free throws by the Celtics, and not a single foul was called on Giannis in the 2nd half.
@Deathofthebambino kind of lays out exactly what I was thinking about the game.
The foul that Giannis (I like typing out Giannis vs GA since the Bucks have another GA who’s been involved in his fair share of questionable plays) committed on Tatum looked like a very late challenge in real time. However, on the replay I didn’t think it was dirty or deserving of a flagrant. The play where he clamped and yanked down on Grants arm was kind of the opposite. Didn’t look bad live action, on the replay it looked pretty dirty. But I am alright with them not calling a flagrant there too.
The issue is, and I promise this is something that the majority of fans think who don’t root for Milwaukee think, is the bang-bang charge/block plays. He’s involved in a shit ton of them and gets the benefit of the doubt an insane amount.
I saw this somewhere, and I might be slightly paraphrasing, but Giannis is officiated like he’s a graceful ballerina when he’s really a bull in a china shop.
The foul that Giannis (I like typing out Giannis vs GA since the Bucks have another GA who’s been involved in his fair share of questionable plays) committed on Tatum looked like a very late challenge in real time. However, on the replay I didn’t think it was dirty or deserving of a flagrant. The play where he clamped and yanked down on Grants arm was kind of the opposite. Didn’t look bad live action, on the replay it looked pretty dirty. But I am alright with them not calling a flagrant there too.
The issue is, and I promise this is something that the majority of fans think who don’t root for Milwaukee think, is the bang-bang charge/block plays. He’s involved in a shit ton of them and gets the benefit of the doubt an insane amount.
I saw this somewhere, and I might be slightly paraphrasing, but Giannis is officiated like he’s a graceful ballerina when he’s really a bull in a china shop.
Like a few others, most of the calls from these games don't bother me and I would generally agree that the refs are doing the best they can with a major exception:
I think Giannis knows that he can push the limits (because the NBA can't afford to have him foul out in the first half) and others can't, and he is wisely using that to his advantage.
Unfortunately this has taken us to the point where:
1. Giannis can clearly charge people who are standing still and the foul will almost never be called
2. Giannis can retaliate to very physical defense by clamping down on someone's arm and dangerously throwing them around (Pritchard, G. Williams)
These two items made game three pretty unwatchable basketball, in my opinion.
I know the NBA won't address them and instead we'll get absurd narratives along the lines of "the Celtics didn't numerically get an equal number of trips to the line as us and that's how we know the game wasn't called fairly!"
I think Giannis knows that he can push the limits (because the NBA can't afford to have him foul out in the first half) and others can't, and he is wisely using that to his advantage.
Unfortunately this has taken us to the point where:
1. Giannis can clearly charge people who are standing still and the foul will almost never be called
2. Giannis can retaliate to very physical defense by clamping down on someone's arm and dangerously throwing them around (Pritchard, G. Williams)
These two items made game three pretty unwatchable basketball, in my opinion.
I know the NBA won't address them and instead we'll get absurd narratives along the lines of "the Celtics didn't numerically get an equal number of trips to the line as us and that's how we know the game wasn't called fairly!"
It’s supposed to be a foul when you drop your shoulder as well. Giannis isn’t just that much stronger than everyone else.. he also is allowed to get a running start. Just look at the difference in charges called in this series on Tatum. Giannis also extends his arm plenty.. he’s not doing anything special.. he’s just not getting called the same way. He does have quick turns.. and his footwork is also pretty good.. but I have no idea what is a euro step and what is a travel anymore.. because he walks on that line a lot.
The bucks narrative is the Celtics got twice as many free throws so clearly they’re the aggrieved party.
Just looked it up.. Giannis fouled out twice this year… twice.
he had 12 games with 5 fouls.
Giannis had 4 fouls in the game:
1. Charging call against Grant in first quarter. Bud challenged it and lost.
2. The play on Tatum’s fast break. If not hitting guys from behind when they are in the air is a point of emphasis, that needs to be a flagrant 1. Not calling those flagrant means there will be more.
3. a reach in foul towards the end of Q2.
4. At some point, maybe 4th quarter, he did pick up a shooting foul.
To that point, the only guy I can compare him to in terms of the physicality and pressure he places on the defense is Shaq. It's different as GA is in motion and Shaq was stationary, and some of the same basic challenges: someone big and powerful who defenses either have to body way more than usual or get pushed out of the way. And someone so skilled and physically different than anyone around them that they impact the overall game hugely. Wilt was probably an example, but way before my time.
I would aruge that what happened with Shaq, effectively, was the league said "it's all fair game" in both directions around him in terms of the level of contact, with lots of calls and lots of no-calls. That led to a ton of free throws (many of which he missed), a lot of bruises from guys he crashed through on the way to dunks, and some ugly basketball. For better or worse....
What's going on with GA right now is a bit different in my view---in that he plays with close to the force of Shaq and knocks defenders around, and while defenders are certainly more physical with him than the generic player, that contact is happening in space rather than exclusively in the paint so (to my eyes) defenders aren't allowed as much contact as defenses were with Shaq. That is not to dispute he gets a lot of contact---only that he gives as much or more than he gets, and it leaves defenses with a real challenge.
I would aruge that what happened with Shaq, effectively, was the league said "it's all fair game" in both directions around him in terms of the level of contact, with lots of calls and lots of no-calls. That led to a ton of free throws (many of which he missed), a lot of bruises from guys he crashed through on the way to dunks, and some ugly basketball. For better or worse....
What's going on with GA right now is a bit different in my view---in that he plays with close to the force of Shaq and knocks defenders around, and while defenders are certainly more physical with him than the generic player, that contact is happening in space rather than exclusively in the paint so (to my eyes) defenders aren't allowed as much contact as defenses were with Shaq. That is not to dispute he gets a lot of contact---only that he gives as much or more than he gets, and it leaves defenses with a real challenge.
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That's right, I forgot, he got hit with the foul on Jaylen in the 4th on an "and one" play in which Jaylen made the shot.
Watch how many times JT and JB drop their shoulders into other players while driving and then tell me whether that is a foul.
If the NBA ever called dropping one's shoulder into the defender as a charge, all people would ever take in the half court are jump shots. Defenders are too good.
Disagree. Bumping is allowed but there is a line past which it (dropping the shoulder) tends to be called.
This may be true. But I'd love it if a ref could just once explain how something like the Giannis non-offensive foul call on Grant Williams happens, when Grant is literally standing still and Giannis blows up his spot. What the fuck does the ref see there? And if they didn't really see it and just saw the aftermath, then what the fuck are they doing blowing the whistle? Play on. How is that impacted by speed of the game? It's not like a play at the rim with limbs and bodies contorting around each other at high speed.
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The ref who made that call very clearly called Grant for pulling Giannis down. He was very, very animated in his motion to that effect. Like I said my post above, unless you are missing eyes, or delusional and having hallucinations, there is no argument whatsoever that Grant pulled Giannis down.
When I say I'd love an explanation, I don't mean what they say on the court. I mean it would be awesome if they did like a Belistrator, where they had to watch replays of some of these calls and explain what was going on in their world vs. ours. Not to make fun of them but to strengthen the understanding and compassion fans and refs have for each other. "Okay, yeah I see now that this was a blown call and probably should have gone the other way, if anything. Here is what was going on at that time and how it looked from my perspective..."
I just watched all of Giannis' points and here are a couple that stood out for me apart from those mentioned above:
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=449&GameID=0042100213&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=G. Antetokounmpo 1' Running Finger Roll Layup (29 PTS)&sct=plot
Giannis drives and makes a finger roll. Smart is in position outside the restricted area and is knocked over. Now, Giannis is so long that he can jump straight up outside the restricted area and still reach the rim so Smart barely affects this shot. But I think this is a clear foul.
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=633&GameID=0042100213&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=G. Antetokounmpo 7' Hook Shot (36 PTS)&sct=plot
Giannis in the post pushes Grant up high twice with his shoulder, visibly knocking him back. Hubie yells "OH OH OH" so he agrees, but no call.
I dunno. I don't think he would ever foul out of a playoff game but he might have played different down the stretch with 5 fouls.
I didn't watch every single play but I re-watched a number of Giannis's misses and I didn't see a whole lot that were uncalled fouls (a number were jump shots). It didn't seem like he was being hacked and they were missing those. He took 12 free throws and they were basically all earned. And the Celtics could have played better D -- Rob was out of position a few times and when JB or JT had to guard him they weren't very good as can be expected. But when someone is in guarding position and holding their spot and gets bowled over, that's what the refs are supposed to catch and Giannis is allowed to do that too often.
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=449&GameID=0042100213&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=G. Antetokounmpo 1' Running Finger Roll Layup (29 PTS)&sct=plot
Giannis drives and makes a finger roll. Smart is in position outside the restricted area and is knocked over. Now, Giannis is so long that he can jump straight up outside the restricted area and still reach the rim so Smart barely affects this shot. But I think this is a clear foul.
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=633&GameID=0042100213&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=G. Antetokounmpo 7' Hook Shot (36 PTS)&sct=plot
Giannis in the post pushes Grant up high twice with his shoulder, visibly knocking him back. Hubie yells "OH OH OH" so he agrees, but no call.
I dunno. I don't think he would ever foul out of a playoff game but he might have played different down the stretch with 5 fouls.
I didn't watch every single play but I re-watched a number of Giannis's misses and I didn't see a whole lot that were uncalled fouls (a number were jump shots). It didn't seem like he was being hacked and they were missing those. He took 12 free throws and they were basically all earned. And the Celtics could have played better D -- Rob was out of position a few times and when JB or JT had to guard him they weren't very good as can be expected. But when someone is in guarding position and holding their spot and gets bowled over, that's what the refs are supposed to catch and Giannis is allowed to do that too often.
I understand, and unfortunately, we'll never get that.
But it keeps bringing me back to this same point. If that call is made correctly, with IIRC, about 7:30 left in the 3rd quarter, that's Giannis' 4th foul (should have been like his 7th, but that's not relevant) and Grant has one less foul (and was forced to play with 5 for a big part of the game later on as a result). Maybe Giannis has to play more tentative, or see some bench time as a result, maybe Grant can now play more aggressively knowing he has an extra foul to work with.
These bad calls don't even out when the person getting the benefit is an MVP level player, and as a result, is able to play more minutes and more aggressively than if they are called right. Nobody gives a shit if Grant Williams gets his 5th foul except Celtics fans, nobody gives a shit if Pat Connaughton finishes with 4 fouls instead of 5. Pat Connaughton and Grant Williams aren't going to be the guys we point to and say "that's the reason the C's won or lost." Giannis is literally the only reason these games are close, and every time he gets a no-call, or an egregious call in his favor, it has a massively disparate impact on the game.
It's like the inverse of when the refs fouled Tatum out of the game against Brooklyn, with a couple of absolute ticky tack fouls.
This was the call I found most egregious while watching in real time. It should have been Giannis's 4th foul in the 3rd quarter, instead it was Grant's 3rd, followed quickly by his 4th, followed by some unfortunate Daniel Theis time and suddenly Jaylen is guarding Giannis one on one after the switch on multiple possessions. Call that one correctly and the game looks very different.
Edit: or exactly what you just said.
Look. You can say that things have changed. You can say that Tim Donaghy is a lying scumbag. But after games like game 3, my mind will never wander too far from rigged/conspiracy. That's what refs rigging games does to a league. It's a permanent black eye.
And, frankly, I think Donaghy gets the Canseco treatment.
If hitman Brothers is being sent in tonight, hopefully it's under the direction of Silver to right the wrong of game 3.
https://www.sportscasting.com/almost-all-nba-referees-do-this-according-to-tim-donaghy/
Like better background checks.
And offseason councilling.
Advanced notice of whose reffing games.
And even *gasp* re-emphasizing that sports betting is bad...but refs can still gamble if they want.
The NBA is hard to officiate. I get it. And I do believe they've, for the most part, done a better job over the last 5+ years of officiating. But I don't think it's out of line to question the morality or legitimacy of the league when shit like this keeps...popping...up.
And, frankly, I think Donaghy gets the Canseco treatment.
If hitman Brothers is being sent in tonight, hopefully it's under the direction of Silver to right the wrong of game 3.
https://www.sportscasting.com/almost-all-nba-referees-do-this-according-to-tim-donaghy/
And let's not forget that, in response to the Donaghy scandal, the NBA made several HUGE changes to their officiating policies.
Like better background checks.
And offseason councilling.
Advanced notice of whose reffing games.
And even *gasp* re-emphasizing that sports betting is bad...but refs can still gamble if they want.
The NBA is hard to officiate. I get it. And I do believe they've, for the most part, done a better job over the last 5+ years of officiating. But I don't think it's out of line to question the morality or legitimacy of the league when shit like this keeps...popping...up.
There are many calls that technology can and should override well trained professionals. Almost every clock violation shouldn't rely on a guy counting in his head (8 second half court violation, 5 second in bound, 3 second rule, etc). Calls such as goaltending, or whether a guys foot was in or out of bounds or on a line are also primed for a robot call
Tennis is a perfect sport to drag into this conversation. Yes they're different sports, and so much of tennis is where a ball bounced relative to lines. However, the challenges take like 15 seconds. It goes up on the big screen, everyone sees it, play moves on. It doesn't hose the pace of play, rather it speeds things up. Fewer complaints plus more accuracy.
Every conversation about expanding robo officials or having more challenges ends in "oh, so you want more official timeouts and 4 hour games?". It doesn't need to be that way. You can use technology to get it right.
Not really, you can code rules. Human beings/Refs interpret rules differently + 6 human eyes (3 refs) could never do the same work as dozens of cameras.
The HD camera and AI technology are there. Otherwise, cars couldn't drive around at high speeds and make split-second judgments
I love Giannis and Tatum's shitty performance was a bigger contributing factor to the game 3 loss. With that said, Giannis is going to be called the same way through the end of these playoffs and it's wishful thinking that anything is going to change with regard to calling him for blowing defenders up. However, his brand of basketball is incredibly ugly when he's in "smash mouth" mode, and as SVG said in game 2 when Grant took a head on collision and nothing was called "if that's not an offensive foul, what is Grant Williams supposed to do?" In my view, this goes to the integrity of the game. It's not as bad as a point shaving scandal or the Donaghy situation, but to me at least, it's just a shitty product when a man of Giannis's physical stature can Earl Campbell a guy and nothing is called. I don't know what the answer is, other than calling the game as it is actually being played rather than worrying about GA or someone like him fouling out, but I'm not naïve. I just think it makes for a shittier product, and a slightly unfair one.
Capers/Brothers/Goble
1. James Capers has always seemed decent
2. Tony Brothers made the Harden calls when Smart was guarding him. Flopping works!
3. Jacyn Goble's 2nd playoff game. His brother, John, has been an NBA ref for 15 yrs and is doing the other game
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a4CnOtVn0U
1. James Capers has always seemed decent
2. Tony Brothers made the Harden calls when Smart was guarding him. Flopping works!
3. Jacyn Goble's 2nd playoff game. His brother, John, has been an NBA ref for 15 yrs and is doing the other game
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a4CnOtVn0U
I don't get the bolded. Giannis wasn't blowing guys up in games 1 and 2, at least not the same way he was in game 3. Why can NBA officials not call Giannis the ame way they did in games 1 and 2?
To me it seems very clear that a different approach was taken in game 3, probably because of Bud's firsrt quarter challenge stunt.
I disagree with one of these, see a case to disagree with the another and agree with one.
The replay shows the foul on Hill stripping down on the arm prior to the Giannis contact. For all the times Tatum could have been called for fouls on Giannis this is standard star treatment if there is any doubt. Since Hill did get him it’s reasonable to not hit the star with a foul here and it went the other way several times.
TL was not stationary. He was sliding over and the contact was prior to or simultaneous with the hook. That was the correct call imo.
The bull rush over Grant was pretty ridiculous. Being that it would have been his 4th foul I would have liked to see Ime challenge this at the time.
I can accept the argument on the TL one, although the hook with the elbow was clear as day, IMO.
On the Hill one, if Hill committed the foul (in which the whistle blow until after the contact by Giannis mind you), why was it a shooting foul? That little teeny touch on Jaylen's back by Hill, which was not called, like ever in the game, happened before Jaylen went up for the shot.
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=276&GameID=0042100213&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=Hill S.FOUL (P1.T4) (S.Wright)&sct=plot
Can't find a good view from under the basket on the Williams one above, but that elbow from Giannis went around TL's back:
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=280&GameID=0042100213&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=Williams III S.FOUL (P1.T2) (S.Wright)&sct=plot
He was bowling people over in G 1 and 2 as well. It's what he does, and it's how they call him. The reffing was just worse in G3 overall so everyone's talking about the refs.
My response to JVG would be that all Grant and Celts can do is roughly be what he and Pat Riley did when faced with better players---get physical with other teams to the point of being dirty to raise the cost of being physical back. And, macro-level, use that level of physical play to then force a different refereeing approach which negates the advantages the other players had.
If Miami and Milwaukee both advance we can test out whether I'm right, but that is my fear about the path the NBA is on with the way they call (and don't call) GA...they are going to force teams to conclude they have to do something different in a way that I don't like as a fan. I lived through Mahorn and Laimbeer cheap-shotting the original Big 3 and I don't want that in the game again. But it's all teams are left with when guys are allowed to play like GA
We should have a separate “Giannis possession thread” separate from the game thread breaking down every one of his possessions tonight.
I think it was more egregious in G3. Once he realized the whistle was swallowed and they were only staying in the game running off tackle there was no stopping it.
Shaqs physicality is a good analogy, except he did his damage backing people down before the turn and dunk, while Giannis starts swinging head high elbows eurostepping at full speed from just inside the 3 point line. It’s kind of scary.
I agree---GA tonight hit three Celtics in the face full speed and got called for none of them.
25-17 fouls when the Celtics were the much more aggressive team driving tonight kind of tells the story. But they did a better job staying focused and playing through the bad calls tonight, which they need to keep doing. GA is not going to suddenly start being called by the rulebook....
Small thing: Does the NBA ever call 3 seconds any more? Lopez camped out under the basket for the entire 4th quarter, and scored on several lobs after being there for the entire offensive possession. It drives me nuts.
I don't think the technology is there.
Self driving cars work because you have many millions of miles of recorded data which has also had many millions of dollars paid to humans to rigorously annotate those miles.
If you had game tape from every NBA game ever I don't think you would have enough data to make the same types of approaches work. AI needs lots of data. Like, a lot.
Also drives me nuts. Lopez really irritates me, and he was just camping in the 4th quarter:
View: https://streamable.com/3fnj7t
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This one is 6 going by the time codes. You have to clear both feet, correct?
Yes, both feet. Otherwise guys that tall could basically still be under the hoop with one foot out of the paint. Clear, egregious three second violation there. But I mean, I don't remember the last time I saw a three second call.
Also...watch Giannis. He travels as he comes to a stop. Establishes his right foot as his pivot foot AFTER the gather. Then promptly lifts it and replants it as he's swinging his left foot around.
I know, I know...this stuff happens all the time. Well then....call it please. The rules are there for a reason. (or are they?)
Wes add eewww
its not a small thing.. and he does it constantly. One of the main reasons he gets so many rebounds is because he never leaves the paint, he’s 7 foot and he’s really hard to move. If you don’t have to keep moving out of the paint it’s a huge advantage for a large man. Same is true on the defensive end.. he camps out in the land and basically pretends to be a goalie.. defensive three seconds is also supposed to be a thing.
I'm not gonna complain too much about 3 second calls, they basically don't call it anymore, and we do it quite a bit too, on both ends.
Last night I thought the Celtics got a rough whistle for 3 quarters, then a good one in the 4th (flip that for MIL).
Overall it wasn't a well officiated game, but it also wasn't game 3 bad.
Last night I thought the Celtics got a rough whistle for 3 quarters, then a good one in the 4th (flip that for MIL).
Overall it wasn't a well officiated game, but it also wasn't game 3 bad.
Hill had his left hand on JB's back the whole drive including when JB jumped; it's a pretty automatic foul call IMO.
Yeah they could have called it on the floor but they gave JB the shots, isn't that good?
As mentioned upthread it was called twice in the 1H of Phoenix game. Make note that the officiating crew was Fitzgerald/Williams/Blair however I’m not replaying to see which or if the same ref called both of them.
Edit: Fitzgerald and Williams are in Miami tonight.
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You’re allowed to have one arm on the player on the groundAa it’s only when a player gets into the air that it’s a foul imo.. because it’s really easy to push someone when their feet aren’t on the ground