A Country for Old Men: Tom Brady and His Ilk

[grimshaw]

Anyone else here in 2021 because of Tom Brady? I was done with football two years ago for a number of reasons not needed to be rehashed here. But now I'm the casual fan again, tuning in glued, not because of media manufactured bullshit from two legends parting ways, but because Tom Brady is 43 year's old. And 43+-year old people don't do this in sports.

Well some do, but it's a very short list. Off the top of my head.

MLB - Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Satchel Paige
NHL - Gordie Howe, Chris Chelios, Jaromir Jagr
NBA - ?
NFL - ?
Golf - Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods
Boxing - George Foreman

There are many others I'm sure, also in sports not mentioned but where does Tom Brady rank among the top athletes of all time among his age and older?

 

[jose melendez]

I've got one year on Tom, I've never been hit in my life or had a serious injury, and my body has lots of aches and pains that keep me well short of even a hypothetical peak. How he does it is inexplicable.

 

[jose melendez]

Barry Bonds in MLB insane OPS up to 42

 

[Euclis20]

Nobody tunes in to watch the kicker, but Vinatieri was an all-pro at age 42, and stuck around until 47.

 

[bankshot1]

George Blanda played into his late 40s, but mostly as a place-kicker for the Raiders.

and

Robert Parrish and Kareem A Jabbar were IIRC 42-43 when they stopped bouncing basketballs.

 

[grimshaw]

I've got one year on Tom, I've never been hit in my life or had a serious injury, and my body has lots of aches and pains that keep me well short of even a hypothetical peak. How he does it is inexplicable.

I have 4 days on him and just pulled a hammy thinking about trying to leg out a double going oppo in slow pitch softball.

 

[cshea]

Mark Recchi for the NHL. He was 42 his last season. Played 81 regular season games and 25 playoff games. 19 goals, 43 assists. Went out as a champion.

Zdeno Chara is still active as a 43-year old.

 

[luckiestman]

Boxing: Bernard Hopkins
MMA: Randy Couture

 

[Kliq]

NBA would be LeBron, Kareem and Karl Malone. Chief played forever but was very much a role player for the last several years of his career.

NFL would be Brady, Blanda, Favre, Brees, Frank Gore, Jerry Rice. In his age 40 season, Jerry Rice had 92 catches, 1,200 yards and 7 TDs.

Soccer would be Stanley Matthews, who played top-flight soccer until he was 50.

Baseball has a zillion people over 40 that have been great; Pete Alexander was very much still an ace when he went to St. Louis when he was 40, putting up an ERA+ of 160 during his first season. Luke Appling missed his age 37 season due to World War II, came back for his age 38 season and played until he was 43, generating 20 WAR over that time span.

 

[Kliq]

Also Zlatan, but Zlatan doesn't really have an age so it's hard to really draw a line on that.

 

[CreightonGubanich]

Juventus GK Gianluigi Buffon is still a Champions League- level keeper at age 42.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Anyone else here in 2021 because of Tom Brady? I was done with football two years ago for a number of reasons not needed to be rehashed here. But now I'm the casual fan again, tuning in glued, not because of media manufactured bullshit from two legends parting ways, but because Tom Brady is 43 year's old. And 43+-year old people don't do this in sports.

Well some do, but it's a very short list. Off the top of my head.

MLB - Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Satchel Paige
NHL - Gordie Howe, Chris Chelios, Jaromir Jagr
NBA - ?
NFL - ?
Golf - Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods
Boxing - George Foreman

There are many others I'm sure, also in sports not mentioned but where does Tom Brady rank among the top athletes of all time among his age and older?

Theres a few players that you missed, but the question "where does he rank as a 43+ year old player"?

First. No question. The things these other guys did were great, but they were far off from their peak. They were celebrated because they were above average/good for their age. Brady was a top tier QB this season, and he did it out of his comfort zone. I mean, the dude was top 5 in air yards - throws traveled in the air - on both attempts and completions, which we know (thought we knew?) isn't his strength. Much of his success came in the long game. Tampa was middle of the league in RAC, which we always assumed was where Brady thrived with a more west coast mentality (screens, slants, 12 yards and under, etc).

The other people on this list were succesful because they were SO good, they could fall back on their honed skills to still be above average and successful. Brady switched teams, changed play style, and had a fantastic statistical season as well as bringing his team to the SB.

Number one and its not close.

 

[luckiestman]

NBA would be LeBron

LeBron is 36 years old, Jordan won his last title at 35, Tragic could have played longer too if not for HIV.

 

[grimshaw]

NBA would be LeBron, Kareem and Karl Malone. Chief played forever but was very much a role player for the last several years of his career.

NFL would be Brady, Blanda, Favre, Brees, Frank Gore, Jerry Rice. In his age 40 season, Jerry Rice had 92 catches, 1,200 yards and 7 TDs.

Soccer would be Stanley Matthews, who played top-flight soccer until he was 50.

Baseball has a zillion people over 40 that have been great; Pete Alexander was very much still an ace when he went to St. Louis when he was 40, putting up an ERA+ of 160 during his first season. Luke Appling missed his age 37 season due to World War II, came back for his age 38 season and played until he was 43, generating 20 WAR over that time span.

The gist of what I was trying to debate was people who are 43 and older still being very effective at their jobs. Where does Brady rank among them? LeBron has 7 years to go. I'd describe some players in this thread being named as merely contributors, and not guys at 75% of what they were in their prime.

43 is a very large difference from 40. The year to year decline gets more and more precipitous historically.

 

[luckiestman]

I've got one year on Tom, I've never been hit in my life or had a serious injury, and my body has lots of aches and pains that keep me well short of even a hypothetical peak. How he does it is inexplicable.

I think we’re going to see it more and more. I don’t think he will be a one off

 

[Kliq]

The gist of what I was trying to debate was people who are 43 and older still being very effective at their jobs. Where does Brady rank among them? LeBron has 7 years to go. I'd describe some players in this thread being named as merely contributors, and not guys at 75% of what they were in their prime.

43 is a very large difference from 40. Most athletes decline precipitously after the age of 35, particularly when they are 40.

Tom is in uncharted waters, as KFP points out, because he is still at or very close to his peak at 43. It's impossible to compare athletes from difference sports using age as a universal measuring stick, and it would be foolish to try. An NBA player at 36 still playing at a really high level is probably analogous to a QB in the NFL playing well at 40.

Bernard Hopkins winning a legitimate boxing world title at 49 is probably the best example; he was the world champion so its hard to say he wasn't still at his peak, even if he probably wasn't the same boxer that he was in his younger years.

 

[snowmanny]

Golf: Gary Player won the Masters at 42 and was second in the PGA at 48. Snead won the Masters at 42.

The fact is that Brady has dropped off a bit, and now he's only about as good as 2001-2005 Brady or peak Troy Aikman.

 

[luckiestman]

Tom is in uncharted waters, as KFP points out, because he is still at or very close to his peak at 43. It's impossible to compare athletes from difference sports using age as a universal measuring stick, and it would be foolish to try. An NBA player at 36 still playing at a really high level is probably analogous to a QB in the NFL playing well at 40.

Bernard Hopkins winning a legitimate boxing world title at 49 is probably the best example; he was the world champion so its hard to say he wasn't still at his peak, even if he probably wasn't the same boxer that he was in his younger years.

49 Hopkins is pushing it but 43 year old Hopkins was legit. He is my best comp. Someone that really took care of his body in the right way and played in a way that was elite but could protect himself. Brady takes hits, but he isn’t out their putting a lot of crazy stress (crazy for the NFL of course) on his body like a QB that scrambles a lot.

 

[BaseballJones]

Golf: Gary Player won the Masters at 42 and was second in the PGA at 48. Snead won the Masters at 42.

The fact is that Brady has dropped off a bit, and now he's only about as good as 2001-2005 Brady or peak Troy Aikman.

Nicklaus won the Masters at 46.

Roger Federer is 39. He won Wimbledon at 36, and made a Grand Slam final (Wimbledon) at age 37. At age 39 he's still ranked #5 in the world.

 

[luckiestman]

Nicklaus won the Masters at 46.

Roger Federer is 39. He won Wimbledon at 36, and made a Grand Slam final (Wimbledon) at age 37. At age 39 he's still ranked #5 in the world.

That Federer one is a good one. I knew about Jack but golf ...I respect it but I can’t compare it with NFL, Boxing, or Tennis.

 

[BaseballJones]

That Federer one is a good one. I knew about Jack but golf ...I respect it but I can’t compare it with NFL, Boxing, or Tennis.

Agreed on golf...I mentioned him because another poster mentioned some other golfers. Federer doing what he did/is doing at his age, especially given that he's in direct competition with maybe the other two greatest players of all time (Novak/Rafa) is mind-boggling.

 

[Leather]

I'm not saying he was all star caliber, but Julio Franco put up a 107 OPS+ at age 46 over 179 PAs and kept playing until he was 48.

Jamie Moyer started a WS game at age 45.

 

[bankshot1]

In our own backyard, so to speak, we saw (some saw) Ted Williams still be a dominant hitter into his late 30s (led the league in BA, OPS) and had 29 HRs in a pre-expansion AL at age 41.

And Big Papi had a great swan song at 40, leading the AL in OPS.

 

[luckiestman]

I'm not saying he was all star caliber, but Julio Franco put up a 107 OPS+ at age 46 over 179 PAs and kept playing until he was 48.

Juiced to the gills but I respect that

 

[h8mfy]

Bartolo "Big Sexy" Colon hit his first major league HR at 42, and was pretty entertaining for another few years. Not great, but he looked a lot more like 43 year old me than most

 

[Preacher]

Nicklaus won the Masters at 46.

Roger Federer is 39. He won Wimbledon at 36, and made a Grand Slam final (Wimbledon) at age 37. At age 39 he's still ranked #5 in the world.

Serena Williams is also 39 and ranked #10 in the world. She also had a baby back in 2017 via cesarean-section. She made it to the US Open finals and Wimbledon finals in both 2018 and 2019.

 

[luckiestman]

Serena Williams is also 39 and ranked #10 in the world. She also had a baby back in 2017 via cesarean-section. She made it to the US Open finals and Wimbledon finals in both 2018 and 2019.

Just looked up Martina, she won a major at 46

That’s nuts

Edit: hang on this looks like doubles

 

[grimshaw]

Tom is in uncharted waters, as KFP points out, because he is still at or very close to his peak at 43. It's impossible to compare athletes from difference sports using age as a universal measuring stick, and it would be foolish to try. An NBA player at 36 still playing at a really high level is probably analogous to a QB in the NFL playing well at 40.

Fair points, though I do think you are overestimating old quarterbacks and underestimating late 30's NBA players.

Basically, Warren Moon and Brett Favre each had one good season after turning 40. They hung around but stunk. Testaverde was kicking around as was Flutie but you didn't want them anywhere other than holding a clipboard if you wanted to make the playoffs. Those are the only noteworthy in the history of the league.

I'm by no means an NBA guy, but in 2011 alone you had Steve Nash, Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Chauncey Billups, Antawn Jamison, and Jason KIdd all between the ages of 35 and 39 and still between good and great.

 

[BaseballJones]

Just looked up Martina, she won a major at 46

That’s nuts

Edit: hang on this looks like doubles

Mixed doubles.

 

[Comfortably Lomb]

Golf: Gary Player won the Masters at 42 and was second in the PGA at 48. Snead won the Masters at 42.

The fact is that Brady has dropped off a bit, and now he's only about as good as 2001-2005 Brady or peak Troy Aikman.

Don't forget Tom Watson almost winning the British Open in 2009 at age 59. A par on the last hole would have won it but of course he bogeyed and lost in the playoff.

 

[patinorange]

Don't forget Tom Watson almost winning the British Open in 2009 at age 59. A par on the last hole would have won it but of course he bogeyed and lost in the playoff.

Julius Boros won the PGA at age 48yrs, 4 months. 1968, the oldest major winner.

 

[OurF'ingCity]

Related question - how long do we think Brady plays? Before this season I would have been willing to bet a good amount of money that he would play out his current contract through next season and then call it quits. But now I legitimately wonder if he might not sign another two-year contract after that and (at least try) to play that out before retiring, which means he would be playing through his age-46 season.

 

[jose melendez]

Bonds didn't make it to 43 because he was justifiably blacklister, but Bonds at 42 was better than Brady at 42.

 

[jose melendez]

Nolan Ryan had an OPS+ of 114 at 43 and 140--third best of his career--at 44.

In terms of individual performance, the 140 is better than Tom and the 114 is probably about as good.

Edit: 3.5 WAR at 43 at 5.2 at 44.... Just nuts.

 

[Leather]

Nolan Ryan had an OPS+ of 114 at 43 and 140--third best of his career--at 44.

In terms of individual performance, the 140 is better than Tom and the 114 is probably about as good.

Edit: 3.5 WAR at 43 at 5.2 at 44.... Just nuts.

ERA+; and it was the 4th best of his career.

At 44 he was probably the 11th best pitcher in baseball, which is a fine achievement. Not sure it's equal to being a top 5-7 or so QB in the NFL.

 

[dynomite]

Even though he wasn't a starter, in major sports Gordie Howe playing a full season with the Whale at age 51 in 1980 and scoring 15 goals is in a category of its own, right? I'm not sure how to judge simply playing a major sport at age 50+ vs. leading a team to the Super Bowl or pitching in the World Series at age 43.

I'll add that the sport and position is relevant. In Olympic Swimming at age 41 Dara Torres was able to make the U.S. Women's 2008 Team and won 3 Silvers in her 3 events. That's completely nuts. For comparison, I believe Michael Phelps set the Olympics record for oldest individual gold medalist at age 31.

 

[joe dokes]

Don't forget Tom Watson almost winning the British Open in 2009 at age 59. A par on the last hole would have won it but of course he bogeyed and lost in the playoff.

Nicklaus, 59 and a few months short of hip replacement surgery, was in contention on the back nine Sunday in the 98 Masters. I still think that was more impressive than winning at 46.

 

[luckiestman]

Bonds didn't make it to 43 because he was justifiably blacklister, but Bonds at 42 was better than Brady at 42.

This is true but worth mentioning that while it is likely Brady has some special assistance, Bonds had designer Victor Conte shit.

 

[Traut]

Related question - how long do we think Brady plays? Before this season I would have been willing to bet a good amount of money that he would play out his current contract through next season and then call it quits. But now I legitimately wonder if he might not sign another two-year contract after that and (at least try) to play that out before retiring, which means he would be playing through his age-46 season.

Brady has repeatedly said he wants to play until he’s 45. He is currently 43. He turns 44 in August. So I think he plays 2 more seasons.

 

[santadevil]

Wait....when did Chris Chelios retire?

The Gordie Howe mention is legit, playing pro in his 50's is something I doubt we ever see again

 

[Marciano490]

49 Hopkins is pushing it but 43 year old Hopkins was legit. He is my best comp. Someone that really took care of his body in the right way and played in a way that was elite but could protect himself. Brady takes hits, but he isn’t out their putting a lot of crazy stress (crazy for the NFL of course) on his body like a QB that scrambles a lot.

Hopkins also started late, which might’ve helped. But he was making Pascal look silly in his late 40’s. Klitschko also had the belt into his 40s I believe. And Foreman I guess gets a mention.

 

[terrynever]

In 1953, it was Satchel Paige, who pitched 117 innings to a 3.53 ERA for the St. Louis Browns at age 46. Twelve years later, he threw 3 scoreless innings for KC.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/paigesa01.shtml

 

[johnmd20]

ERA+; and it was the 4th best of his career.

At 44 he was probably the 11th best pitcher in baseball, which is a fine achievement. Not sure it's equal to being a top 5-7 or so QB in the NFL.

How many pitchers are on an MLB roster? How many actually pitch consistently every week?

How many QBs are on an NFL roster? How many start for a team every week?

"Fine achievement" Man, that's a take.

 

[Oppo]

First ones to come to mind (only one elite at an advanced age though):

Vince Carter played until 43. While just a role player, 24+, 17+, 17+, and 14+ NBA minutes per game is impressive in his age 40-43 seasons.

Julio Franco played until 48 and hit .328, though no power (mentioned above)
Jamie Moyer started 10 games at 49 (mentioned above)
Mariano Rivera had 43 saves at age 44

 

[Leather]

DP

 

[Leather]

How many pitchers are on an MLB roster? How many actually pitch consistently every week?

How many QBs are on an NFL roster? How many start for a team every week?

"Fine achievement" Man, that's a take.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fine
Fine. "Superior of best quality", "the highest grade."

Used in context: "It's a fine bet that johnmd adopted the least charitable interpretation of my post, and appeared to be needlessly combative."


I'm literally saying I am *not sure* if Brady's season is more impressive or not. On one hand, from a physical exertion standpoint, the baseball season is longer, while the football season is (rather obviously) more physically punishing. Given that Brady's success is far more critical to the success of TB as the QB than Ryan's was to Texas (as the #2 starter), I'd say Brady's year is probably more impressive than Ryan's. I say this not to slight Ryan, but because this is a baseball discussion board, and we entertain ourselves by discussing these things.

 

[joe dokes]

Tim Horton played 69 games on defense (+11) for the 72-73 Sabres in his age 43 season. Doug Harvey played 70 games on D for the expansion Blues in 69-70 in his age 44 season. As a kid I remember seeing (on TV) Horton, Harvey, Gump Worsley, Johnny Bower (43 games at G in his age 43 season) & others who were old then. I didn't realize at the time that these guys were only one or two degrees removed from the beginnings of the NHL.

 

[grimshaw]

In Phil Niekro's age 45 season he was 16-8 with a 3.09 ERA and 3.8bWAR. He was good to great from ages 40-45. Charlie Hough had a 2.2 bWAR season at age 45.

 

[Bread of Yaz]

Not a team sport -- but Yuichiro Moira summitted Mount Everest at age 80.

 

[Mooch]

Kristin Armstrong winning the gold medal in Cycling Time Trial in 2016 at 42 years old (coming out of retirement) is pretty amazing.