Al Horford: he gawn

lovegtm

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I think the clearest mistake Ainge has made recently was not trading Rozier when he had the chance. But that’s a mistake on the periphery - not something driving the rebuild we’re seeing now.

If you really want to give Ainge a hard time, you can add not trading for Kawhi to the list. He presumably passed because 1) he thought Kawhi was likely to leave after a year; 2) he didn’t want to trade Jaylen for a 1-year rental; 3) nobody knew whether Kawhi was healthy. And we’re seeing why he was afraid of the 1-year rental problem right now with Kyrie. The players have all the leverage, so trading for a guy who wants to be with the Clippers is fraught. The Raptors did it, won the title, and even now are underdogs to keep Kawhi. (And even then, we don’t know if Jaylen and Smart tops a DeRozan offer for the Spurs).

AD and Paul George were never possibilities, either due to the CBA or due to needing to keep cap space open for Hayward. Complaining about those non-moves is just nonsense.

The Celtics are in rough shape now. It sucks, and that’s about it. Getting angry at Ainge about it would be asinine given the specifics of how things went down. I’m pretty pleased there’s no “Ainge hot seat” thread here right now however. It’s just the reality of the NBA - it’s hard to win, and there’s no blueprint. Sometimes you do everything right, and it just doesn’t work out.
I should just make this post my signature.
 

TheRooster

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Wish that Paul and Harden didn't hate each other, for a sign and trade with HOU where Horford goes and Capela comes seems like a pretty reasonable deal for both sides
I'm in this camp and I"m not convinced this is 100% off the table. I mean, who is going to take Chris Paul off Houston's hands?
 

djbayko

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Wish that Paul and Harden didn't hate each other, for a sign and trade with HOU where Horford goes and Capela comes seems like a pretty reasonable deal for both sides
I'm probably being dumb, but what does the Paul and Harden rift have to do with this potential trade?
 

Kliq

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I think this Embbid getting schooled by Horford is a bit overblown. Embiid shot slightly worse against BOS in both regular season and playoffs, but he did still manage to put 24 points and 14 rebounds.
Yeah Wilt put up good numbers against Russell too.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think the clearest mistake Ainge has made recently was not trading Rozier when he had the chance. But that’s a mistake on the periphery - not something driving the rebuild we’re seeing now.
I don't even know how much of a mistake this even was given Terry's limited market at the time. Rozier's value didn't truly escalate until last summer after he showed his capabilities after Kyrie went down in the regular season then into the playoffs but by that time he was one season from hitting FA to his suitors were limited to those who were ready to commit to him longterm. On top of that as a PG his suitors were even more limited, mostly to lottery teams who didn't really have assets to ship to us or want to ship to us for Rozier.

So we didn't know if Kyrie was signing long term and had his replacement in hand while also doubling as insurance this past season. When you put it all together I still don't feel the limited return that would have been out there for Rozier was greater than the value he brought to the team while protecting our future. Of course this is all in theory and things certainly didn't work out the way Ainge planned.
 

the moops

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I'm probably being dumb, but what does the Paul and Harden rift have to do with this potential trade?
Just thinking that if they have to dump Paul or trade Harden or even keep the two of them, it might sour Horford on going there. And we need Horford to sign on to any deal
 

NomarsFool

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If the Celtics of recent years made mistakes, they were:
  • Choosing Kyrie as the big acquisition
  • Not going after Kawhi (which would have cost them Brown among other assets)
  • Not going all-in for AD (which would have cost them all the assets, including 2 of Tatum, Brown, Smart)
I don't think any of those were mistakes, but I would add two more potential mistakes to the list:

1) Holding on to Rozier at the end of last season instead of trading him for something useful. Hindsight is 20/20, but having him rot on the bench and contribute negatively to the clubhouse did not turn out well.

2) Not doing anything at the trade deadline to save all potential chips for AD. If I recall correctly, both Toronto and Philadelphia (maybe the Bucks as well?) all made some moves to tweak their teams for the playoffs while the Celtics did absolutely nothing. From an optics perspective, it might have been better in hindsight to do something to tweak the team a bit.
 

cheech13

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Wish that Paul and Harden didn't hate each other, for a sign and trade with HOU where Horford goes and Capela comes seems like a pretty reasonable deal for both sides
Why are there so many posts shipping Horford to Houston? I haven't seen them connected in any rumors outside of this board, and frankly, Horford doesn't fit their system at all. Houston wants to move Capela for assets to go after a big fish, reportedly Jimmy Butler. It's probably not going to happen, but that doesn't mean they're going to settle for a Capela-Horford swap, which adds unnecessary salary and doesn't make them any better.
 
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PedroKsBambino

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I don't even know how much of a mistake this even was given Terry's limited market at the time. Rozier's value didn't truly escalate until last summer after he showed his capabilities after Kyrie went down in the regular season then into the playoffs but by that time he was one season from hitting FA to his suitors were limited to those who were ready to commit to him longterm. On top of that as a PG his suitors were even more limited, mostly to lottery teams who didn't really have assets to ship to us or want to ship to us for Rozier.

So we didn't know if Kyrie was signing long term and had his replacement in hand while also doubling as insurance this past season. When you put it all together I still don't feel the limited return that would have been out there for Rozier was greater than the value he brought to the team while protecting our future. Of course this is all in theory and things certainly didn't work out the way Ainge planned.
I've been of the view that getting rid of Rozier for whatever was on the table last summer was the wise play, primarily because of the somewhat foreseeable chemistry questions. I acknowledge Danny's logic was likely that he needs to keep Kyrie's replacement, and I don't think that value was sufficient to take the risk they did---particularly since he's not really all that good a replacement.

I'm a big Ainge fan, I just think in this case he imagined a Rozier---in terms of maturity, upside, and value---greater than the guy actually could deliver on. And last summer, after the effective playoff run, was the time to make the move. But not doing so is also defensible, and so I can't be too critical of Ainge about what I consider to be a mistake overall.
 

DavidTai

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On one hand, I can't see why Horford would leave one situation for a similar one and not just go to a contender. On the other hand, that's too big a contract to ignore.

They had to have been tampering to be able to kill those negotiations so drastically.
 

Gash Prex

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I love Al but I do not want him on the Celtics at over a 100 million for 4 years. Already having issues last year with load management
 

HowBoutDemSox

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https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/254375/Rumored-Speculation-Has-Al-Horford-Expecting-Four-Year-$112M-Offer-From-Mavericks
Windhorst, McMahon and McMullan on a pod said that while not reporting, the rumors kicking around is that Dallas has a 4/112 deal on the table for Horford
I can’t wait for the tweets about Mark Cuban driving around Chestnut Hill, frantically texting for Al’s address, while Brad, Danny, Smart, Jayson and Jaylen are camping out at his house waiting for midnight so he can re-sign.
 

benhogan

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I love Al but I do not want him on the Celtics at over a 100 million for 4 years. Already having issues last year with load management
Couldn't help myself, the clock is winding down

Brad wore him down to a nub early in the season by almost exclusively playing him at the 5, which was foolish.
 

DJnVa

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Reading this afternoon that Dallas folks are saying that offer isn't accurate.
 

DJnVa

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Of course, if they confirmed it, they would be admitting to tampering.
I don't think anyone was assuming actual FO people in Dallas were confirming. They were saying sources have been telling them that's not the case.
 

chilidawg

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So there's this quote from Red's Army:

According to ESPN’s Jackie MacMullan, the offer from the Celtics was a four-year one that was “pretty healthy.”
“I think the Celtics made him a good offer. I can’t tell you what it was, but I do think that they did make him a four-year offer that was a pretty healthy one,” MacMullan told ESPN colleague Brian Windhorst on his Hoop Collective Podcast.

Seems like we've been getting fed the line that Al leaving is mostly about money, but this would indicate otherwise. Is Al fed up with the C's too? Is Kyrie leaving not enough? Would seem like the issues go deeper than just KI, which is very concerning.
 

DJnVa

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Seems like we've been getting fed the line that Al leaving is mostly about money, but this would indicate otherwise. Is Al fed up with the C's too? Is Kyrie leaving not enough? Would seem like the issues go deeper than just KI, which is very concerning.
I didn't think it was about money, I thought it was about a chance to win. He's never played in the Finals.
 

nighthob

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Yeah, he openly talked about wanting to compete for a title a couple of weeks ago. And he doesn’t want to do it by sitting on the end of a bench when he’s aged out, he wants to be an actual part of a title winner.
 

Ale Xander

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Shawn Pendergast apparently thinks/hears he's going to the Clippers, take it for what it's worth.
 

jon abbey

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If the Clippers got Kawhi and Horford, what would be the supporting cast? Would they still have all of Gallinari, Gilgeous-Alexander, Shamet, Harrell and Lou-Will? Anyone else of note? That seems like the current league favorites especially if they can add a bit more depth (no chance of Beverley coming back?).
 

lexrageorge

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The Dallas rumor was a single, weakly sourced report, which was naturally denied by anyone associated with the Mavericks. Of course, the Mavs could not confirm it either, or they would be guilty of tampering.

If Horford is going anywhere, it's unlikely to be Dallas.
 

the moops

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If Horford is going anywhere, it's unlikely to be Dallas.
I wouldn't be so sure of this. Everyone is jusyt speculating at this point, but if they throw a max offer at him, and it is substantially better than what anyone else is offering, maybe he decides competing for a title isn't as necessary as making more money and playing on a fun young team
 

ElUno20

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Why in the world would you not like Horford playing for your team? Is it his affinity for trap over old school rap music?
He's old and not worth 100 million dollar contract. Period. I know this is a celtic board and you guys love Al but he isnt worth the money. He's should be like the 3rd or 4th best player on a really good team.

I'd rather be in the lottery than pay him that money.

Obviously if he comes with KL it'll be alright for a year but that contract is still an embarrassment. And knowing the clippers luck, they'll sign him, not get KL and be stuck with him
 

Captaincoop

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Al could be the difference this year for a contender in need of a big, but at the pace he's physically declining, he could also be complete luggage for two years of a four year deal.

So everyone is right.
 

lovegtm

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Al could be the difference this year for a contender in need of a big, but at the pace he's physically declining, he could also be complete luggage for two years of a four year deal.

So everyone is right.
I think if you have enough depth to shrinkwrap him in the regular season, ala late career Duncan, he still has a lot of value left to provide.
 

Tony C

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Curious about the Clippers match for Horford. Would he complement Montrezl Harrell and vice vera? Or would he be his replacement and the Clippers would look to deal Harrell? Horford seems like a fit with both the team culture the Clippers have built and their potential. Per that team culture, good piece on their pitch to Leonard:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27037033/how-clippers-make-their-anti-pitch-kawhi-leonard
I'm not exactly a fervent Clippers fan, but they are my local preference and one or both of those guys would be something -- both players very easy to root for as well as very good basketball fits (no duh).
 

Eddie Jurak

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Al could be the difference this year for a contender in need of a big, but at the pace he's physically declining, he could also be complete luggage for two years of a four year deal.
I don’t think I agree with the underlying premise here. He played a couple hundred fewer minutes last year and struggled through a mid season injury, but other than that the numbers don’t really reflect any decline and he showed the same ability to match up with a wide range of top bogs defensively.

If you are a right now contender, I think he’s worth the 4, $100+.
 

DJnVa

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Fuck fuck fuck not sixers or Lakers please
They don't have the cap space right now, and not many ways to get it and keep their big guys.

[TH]Situation[/TH] [TH]Projected Cap Space[/TH]
Harris and Redick out, Butler returns $18.4M
Butler out, Harris and Redick return $24.9M
Butler and Harris out, Redick returns $39.7M
Butler, Harris and Redick out $54.7M
 

DJnVa

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Boy he’d be really good in either Philly or LA. That would suck.
To sign in Philly for the dollars everyone is talking about they'd likely have to lose either Butler or Harris AND Reddick. They don't have cap space now.