ALDS: Indians vs Red Sox

Sampo Gida

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Others have already chimed in, but that's the position Tito is in. If Tomlin gives up 3 or 4 in the second, it doesn't make much sense to burn Miller or Allen to come put out the fire, because then you burn them for game 4. The key is if Clay has kept them in check at that point. If they can stake themselves a 4 run lead early, I think Tito is best served letting Tomlin take the abuse and save his bullets for game 4. If Clay spits the bit, it's a different ball game.
If there is one thing Tito has learned, if you have a chance to put a team away, put them away now, don't let them creep back like the Yankees allowed us to do in 2004. Frankly, I could see him using Miller in the 2nd inning. His strength is his pen and he is going to use it
 

JimD

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Exactly. Remember the video from 2004 of the Sox players before the WS clincher telling each other 'Game 7 everybody!'?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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If there is one thing Tito has learned, if you have a chance to put a team away, put them away now, don't let them creep back like the Yankees allowed us to do in 2004. Frankly, I could see him using Miller in the 2nd inning. His strength is his pen and he is going to use it
I'm failing to see how bringing your relief ace in the second inning when you're down here or four runs - as in the scenario I laid out - is 'putting a team away'. But maybe you could help me on that.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Explain that to me. The only certain game for Tuesday is Wash/LA, and that's scheduled for 5:05PM. Cubs/Giants is 8:40PM if necessary.

Since there IS a 5PM game, why would they have the Sox game start at 3 and overlap? It should be at 2, or really, at 1 to make sure it doesn't overlap and to get folks home for Kol Nidre.
#whocomesupwiththeseplans #jewishmomswillbepissed
 

RedOctober3829

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Explain that to me. The only certain game for Tuesday is Wash/LA, and that's scheduled for 5:05PM. Cubs/Giants is 8:40PM if necessary.

Since there IS a 5PM game, why would they have the Sox game start at 3 and overlap? It should be at 2, or really, at 1 to make sure it doesn't overlap and to get folks home for Kol Nidre.
#whocomesupwiththeseplans #jewishmomswillbepissed
If the Cubs sweep tonight, they'll move the Nationals/Dodgers game to a later start time.
 

DrBoston

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I'm hoping the rained out day yesterday is going to give the Sox an extra day to rest and get their heads together so they can come out strong today...and that it's not simply prolonging the inevitable. I was bummed but upbeat after game 1, but after game 2 I was not feeling good about this team in this series at all. Prove me wrong, guys, and win tonight!
 

Mugsy's Jock

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I am reasonably certain that the words "Jewish holiday" were never uttered in any meeting deciding when the games should be played on Tuesday. But there's a good Kol Nidre track record for the Sox.

I was at the Big A on Kol Nidre evening in 1986, moved by the most religious experience of my life to that point: Dave Henderson's miracle Game 5 home run.
 

crystalline

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Boom Boom Boom.


and I like Porcello.

Tough luck that game. Two sinkers that didn't sink.

Edit: maybe three sinkers that didn't sink.
 

BaseballJones

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The Sox were beaten this series by:

Roberto Perez - .183/.285/.294/.579, 51 ops+
Lonnie Chisenhall - .217/.294/.348/.642 vs lefties
Coco Crisp - .231/.302/.397/.698

No shame in getting hit by Kipnis or Lindor, but these three other guys are pretty awful.

But that's baseball.

Oh, and the Sox' offense?

3 games, 7 runs, 21 hits

Abysmal.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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The Sox were beaten this series by:

Roberto Perez - .183/.285/.294/.579, 51 ops+
Lonnie Chisenhall - .217/.294/.348/.642 vs lefties
Coco Crisp - .231/.302/.397/.698

No shame in getting hit by Kipnis or Lindor, but these three other guys are pretty awful.

But that's baseball.

Oh, and the Sox' offense?

3 games, 7 runs, 21 hits

Abysmal.
And some bad luck. The rockets that Mookie and X hit in the 8th are hits a vast majority of the time. Just got hit right at people.
 

Stitch01

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Really wish Mookie could have that first at bat of the series back. Ahead in the count 2-0 and missed two hittable pitches. Not sure it would have mattered of course, one at bat and it wouldn't have solved the bad starting pitching, but maybe the young guys aren't quite as tight if they get ahead of Bauer early with a crooked number.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I'm not too sure about the Shaw substitution there.... but mostly the Sox offense couldn't get locked in. Pitching was just par. Not terrible, but not good enough to win playoff baseball....
The team has a bright future even if they do NOTHING over the winter.
Let's get ready for '17.

I actually am happy for Cleveland... sorry... but I like the town. I've liked the team since the mid 90's and I'd love to see Tito beat Theo in the World Series.
 

Sampo Gida

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The BIg P's don't get the job done. Price, Porcello and Pomeranz on the pitching side, Papi and Pedroia go 3-21 with 1 RBI on offense. Only 3 HR were by AB, Holt and Cold Sandy who accounted for only 1 of every 12 hit by the Red Sox in the regular season. And of course, the Baby B's had a rough first 2 games, although they all got hits tonight.

Anyways, now 7 seasons over the last 8 w/o winning a game in the post season. At least we got there this time, but like in 2009 , went cold at the wrong time. Papis last game makes it tougher than it should be
 

BaseballJones

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I'm not too sure about the Shaw substitution there.... but mostly the Sox offense couldn't get locked in. Pitching was just par. Not terrible, but not good enough to win playoff baseball....
The team has a bright future even if they do NOTHING over the winter.
Let's get ready for '17.

I actually am happy for Cleveland... sorry... but I like the town. I've liked the team since the mid 90's and I'd love to see Tito beat Theo in the World Series.
I know we'll have plenty of time for off season discussion, but here are some things I really like about this team moving forward....

- The young kids. Benintendi, Bradley, Betts, Bogaerts specifically. Think the core of this team is really, really good.

- Rotation. I think Price will have a much better season, Porcello won't be as good but should be solid, and Rodriguez will have a breakout year.

- Power bullpen. I really think they figured out they have some dynamic arms in the bullpen. Kelly is best suited there. Kimbrel should be good. Barnes will continue to get better with more experience (I hope!). Ross is pretty decent. Pomeranz is going to be a starter but I do think he would be an outstanding reliever. You just hate to give up Espinoza for a reliever, so they'll keep him in the rotation for next year. So the pen should be pretty good.

And still some really good talent in the minors or waiting in the wings. Groome, Moncada, Travis, Devers, Kopech, even Swihart.

Outstanding, bright future for this club. Already looking forward to 2017. Even without Papi.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Once both Mookie's and X's balls were fielded, I knew the series was over. We took our shot, Papi pumping up the crowd, and BABIP said no.

Indians are legit but our offensive funk let them get away with their SP injuries. Tito has his work cut out to take 4/7 from the Blue Jays.
 

BaseballJones

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I think Cleveland is going to get pummeled by Toronto. It's tough over 7 games to use Miller like Tito did. Toronto's best hitters are RH, so that at least cuts down a LITTLE on Miller's effectiveness. I don't think Tomlin and Bauer will pitch nearly as well. And I don't see, unless Cleveland is one of these teams of destiny, them getting those huge homers from total scrubs like they did against Boston.
 

capecodjr41

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I didn't like Pomeranz facing Crisp in the 6th even though Coco is a light hitter. There's no tomorrow and the whole pen is rested. Pom had a lackluster season with Boston, and you got a clean inning out of him already. Leadoff walk = a hook in that spot. You didn't need to milk anything more out of Pom (he's a converted starter), and you have all your horses out there ready to go. I thought Farrell handled the pen very well in Sept. and in the first two games but this didn't make sense to me. I think Tito or Maddon would have started the 6th with Kelly, or gone to him after the lead-off walk.
 

Plympton91

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The worst part about postseason losses is you can't go to the minor league thread and drown your sorrows in Devers going 3 for 5 with 2 dingers while Kopech strikes out 9 over 5 innings.
 

Sampo Gida

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I didn't like Pomeranz facing Crisp in the 6th even though Coco is a light hitter. There's no tomorrow and the whole pen is rested. Pom had a lackluster season with Boston, and you got a clean inning out of him already. Leadoff walk = a hook in that spot. You didn't need to milk anything more out of Pom (he's a converted starter), and you have all your horses out there ready to go. I thought Farrell handled the pen very well in Sept. and in the first two games but this didn't make sense to me. I think Tito or Maddon would have started the 6th with Kelly, or gone to him after the lead-off walk.
Yeah. I also didn't like Drew facing Kipnis in game 2 with a man on 2B. Coco had only 3 HR in something like 200 AB at Fenway from the right side, but Drew gives up HR. Funny, but Drew was the only RP'er to give up a run out of the pen. Others went 9 2/3 IP w/o a run. Don't really get JF faith in him out of the pen.
 

uk_sox_fan

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I know we'll have plenty of time for off season discussion, but here are some things I really like about this team moving forward....

- The young kids. Benintendi, Bradley, Betts, Bogaerts specifically. Think the core of this team is really, really good.

- Rotation. I think Price will have a much better season, Porcello won't be as good but should be solid, and Rodriguez will have a breakout year.

- Power bullpen. I really think they figured out they have some dynamic arms in the bullpen. Kelly is best suited there. Kimbrel should be good. Barnes will continue to get better with more experience (I hope!). Ross is pretty decent. Pomeranz is going to be a starter but I do think he would be an outstanding reliever. You just hate to give up Espinoza for a reliever, so they'll keep him in the rotation for next year. So the pen should be pretty good.

And still some really good talent in the minors or waiting in the wings. Groome, Moncada, Travis, Devers, Kopech, even Swihart.

Outstanding, bright future for this club. Already looking forward to 2017. Even without Papi.
BJ captured a lot of my thoughts right there - I do feel we've emerged from the wilderness and have a bunch of good years ahead of us. It was frustrating to see so much of the lineup slump at the end, but other than being shut down by Kluber, I thought they were competitive. And lots of very good hitters were shut down by Kluber this year.

I thought they'd be toast when Miller came in but they really fought on. Bradley's 9th inning AB had the potential to be legendary if things went their way afterwards. Sometimes the Baseball Gods just don't want to write epic poetry...

I wish the Indians well - Tito really makes them likeable to me - and Napoli too. Coco I kind of wanted to hate but it was actually weirdly impressive to see him as a wily veteran presence in their dugout. If they can get Salazar back and effective they could be well placed to advance.
 

Rovin Romine

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I'm glad we had a competitive season. Just looking at the box scores of the ALDS suggest were were close on 2 of 3 games, but the subjective feel is that the team didn't have anything resembling a plan and got their asses kicked.

I can certainly see the upside of this team, and the ALDS loss isn't one that turns me off as a fan. I would like to see Farrell replaced - his season long strategy is average, and his in-game tactics are below average. There wasn't a truly Gump-esque moment here, but again, it's the little things. If the pinch hitting had gone differently in game 3, we'd have had a game 4 behind Porcello at home, with maybe a bit of post season success loosening the team up.
 

Monbonthbump

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Somehow this didn't hurt as bad as I thought it would. In fact, I am still feeling blessed to have seen three WS wins in my lifetime and another would have come with just a tinge of guilt.. The team gave me a lot of high spots this season (and the usual number of lows). I would now like to see a Cubs/Indians series and let one of those deprived fan bases celebrate this year.
 

DrBoston

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I know we'll have plenty of time for off season discussion, but here are some things I really like about this team moving forward....

- The young kids. Benintendi, Bradley, Betts, Bogaerts specifically. Think the core of this team is really, really good.

- Rotation. I think Price will have a much better season, Porcello won't be as good but should be solid, and Rodriguez will have a breakout year.

- Power bullpen. I really think they figured out they have some dynamic arms in the bullpen. Kelly is best suited there. Kimbrel should be good. Barnes will continue to get better with more experience (I hope!). Ross is pretty decent. Pomeranz is going to be a starter but I do think he would be an outstanding reliever. You just hate to give up Espinoza for a reliever, so they'll keep him in the rotation for next year. So the pen should be pretty good.

And still some really good talent in the minors or waiting in the wings. Groome, Moncada, Travis, Devers, Kopech, even Swihart.

Outstanding, bright future for this club. Already looking forward to 2017. Even without Papi.
My thoughts exactly.

Really, I'm mainly just bummed about a) having to wait ~6 months to watch meaningful Sox games again, and b) never seeing Papi in a game again. This team wasn't ready this year, but they're close and they're VERY talented. In the long run, this will probably help the young kids. You need to get some battle scars and get your heart stomped on before you toughen up and excel in the playoffs. They'll get there.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I don't know why.... but I just don't like the Cubs. I like the Giants, but they've had plenty of success the past 8 years... I'd be fine with any of the BlueJays, Indians and Nats winning the whole thing. Mostly pulling for Cleveland now
 

ricopetro6

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kind of shocked how Mookie admitted that now he realizes how important home field advantage is in the playoffs. It does fit though in how no one was talking about it the final week, it was all about Papi it seemed. Farrell has to take some major blame for this.
 

Apisith

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Should Clay have started over E-Rod in Game 3? I don't see why Clay was picked except for the 'he's done it before' feeling, which isn't really much to go on.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I'm glad we had a competitive season. Just looking at the box scores of the ALDS suggest were were close on 2 of 3 games, but the subjective feel is that the team didn't have anything resembling a plan and got their asses kicked.

I can certainly see the upside of this team, and the ALDS loss isn't one that turns me off as a fan. I would like to see Farrell replaced - his season long strategy is average, and his in-game tactics are below average. There wasn't a truly Gump-esque moment here, but again, it's the little things. If the pinch hitting had gone differently in game 3, we'd have had a game 4 behind Porcello at home, with maybe a bit of post season success loosening the team up.
The worst part about this series is that it was the young core players who were the primary architects of failure. Had the young players done well and been dragged down by poor performances from the vets I'd feel better about the future, but consider:

Betts: 2 for 10, 1 R, 0 RBI, 1K
Bogaerts: 3 for 12, 1 R, 0 RBI, 4K
Bradley: 1 for 10, 0 R, 0 RBI, 7K

Porcello: 4.1 IP, 5 R
Pomeranz: 3.2 IP, 2 R

These are the guys that the team should be building around, and in their first postseason experience overall (for the 3 B's and Pomeranz) and in Boston (for Porcello) they completely failed. Utterly and completely collapsed. Now they get to go the whole offseason and the entirety of the regular season next year thinking about the fact that they couldn't win a single postseason game and that none of them did a damn thing in that series. That's an extremely heavy burden to bear and we simply have no idea how they're going to handle it. You could see their frustration build with each successive poor AB and it negatively affected them.

It's difficult for me to take anything positive out of this postseason. They essentially got ruthlessly disposed of by a team missing key players of its own. On paper the Sox were the better team, their pythag showed they weren't frauds and they should have had the pieces to make it a good series. Instead they got their asses kicked. People are going to point to 2 1 run losses but those games weren't as close as they appeared as the Sox fell behind early in both and tried to claw back. Not the ideal formula for success.

One more thing: try harder to get HFA the next time, if there is an immediate next time. No Red Sox team that's been swept in the playoffs has ever made the playoffs again the next year (1988, 1990, 1995, 2005, 2009). That type of complacency can't be tolerated again. Their poor play at the end of the regular season carried directly over into the playoffs. I hope that's a teaching moment for them.

I'm agnostic on Farrell at this point. Keep him, can him, it's not going to matter if the young players continue to fail in the playoffs.
 

lexrageorge

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I don't see any sort of carryover affects; some teams that lose in the first round come back strong the following season. Others fade away. What happened to the 1989 Red Sox is not relevant to this team, other than to point out that a post season berth is by no means guaranteed in 2017. But that would be the case even if the Sox won the title this year.

The Sox underperformed in key areas. Two games were also decided by 1 run. The positive was that this was a last place team in 2015, and we got to see the young players gel as a team for the first time. But there are holes, and returning with the exact same roster minus Papi is a prescription for missing the playoffs entirely.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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The point about missing after being swept is to note that they need to guard against complacency. Mookie's quote above about now realizing how important HFA is in the postseason is nice and all, but if he's under the impression that they're just going to ease in to another playoff berth he's in for a rude awakening.The time to recognize the importance of HFA was this year, when they actually made the playoffs and had their chance. Not next year. Odd that it took a complete whitwashing in the postseason to figure out what common sense should have addressed.

This is the crucial moment for this edition of the team's core. Either the young players figure out a way to have better approaches in the playoffs going forward, or they never get over the hump. We've seen many examples of both over the years around the league, the Twins and A's pissed away many good regular seasons with repeated failures in the playoffs, for example. Those young players never figured it out. It's a white-knuckle time psychologically, really; they have the lack of a single successful playoff moment hanging over their heads now. No one knows how they're going to handle that.
 

lexrageorge

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The point about missing after being swept is to note that they need to guard against complacency. Mookie's quote above about now realizing how important HFA is in the postseason is nice and all, but if he's under the impression that they're just going to ease in to another playoff berth he's in for a rude awakening.The time to recognize the importance of HFA was this year, when they actually made the playoffs and had their chance. Not next year. Odd that it took a complete whitwashing in the postseason to figure out what common sense should have addressed.

This is the crucial moment for this edition of the team's core. Either the young players figure out a way to have better approaches in the playoffs going forward, or they never get over the hump. We've seen many examples of both over the years around the league, the Twins and A's pissed away many good regular seasons with repeated failures in the playoffs, for example. Those young players never figured it out. It's a white-knuckle time psychologically, really; they have the lack of a single successful playoff moment hanging over their heads now. No one knows how they're going to handle that.
I don't agree you can just throw the team's younger players under the bus like that and say they had a "bad approach". Sometimes the BABIP gods do you no favors, and that was certainly true during this series. Ortiz and Pedroia were quiet as well. I'm not even sure you can read that much into Mookie's post game quotes other than someone looking for an explanation, any explanation really, on their performance in the ALDS. For every example of the A's and Twins, you also have teams like the Cardinals. Or the 1995 Yankees. The Cards, btw, have lost in the playoffs the prior 4 seasons and missed them entirely this year.

With 3 rounds of playoffs now, post-season success is difficult in baseball. The A's thoroughly outplayed the Yankees in the 2001 Division Series, and still lost. That's baseball.
 

BaseballJones

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Boston's starting pitching:

Porcello: 4.1 ip, 6 h, 5 r, 5 er, 0 bb, 6 k
Price: 3.1 ip, 6 h, 5 r, 5 er, 2 bb, 3 k
Buchholz: 4.0 ip, 6 h, 2 r, 2 er, 1 bb, 4 k
TOTAL: 11.2 ip, 18 h, 12 r, 12 er, 3 bb, 13 k, 9.26 era, 1.80 whip, 10.0 k/9

That's problem number one.

Problem number two - the offense.

7 runs, 21 hits, batted .214/.278/.378/.655

When two huge components of your team is woefully underperforming (for whatever reason), it's going to be tough to win.

The Sox went 1-8 in their last 9 games of the season, including postseason. During that time, their starting pitching did this:

Last 6 games: 33.0 ip, 32 h, 15 r, 15 er, 15 bb, 33 k, 4.09 era, 1.42 whip, 9.0 k/9
Postseason: 11.2 ip, 18 h, 12 r, 12 er, 3 bb, 13 k, 9.26 era, 1.80 whip, 10.0 k/9
TOTAL: 44.2 ip, 50 h, 27 r, 27 er, 18 bb, 46 k, 5.44 era, 1.52 whip, 9.3 k/9

The starting pitching was acceptable down the stretch but putrid during the playoffs.

Meanwhile, their offense did this:

Last 6 games: 191 ab, 17 r, 38 h, 24 bb, 7 2b, 4 hr, .199/.288/.298/.586
Postseason: 98 ab, 7 r, 21 h, 8 bb, 6 2b, 3 hr, .214/.278/.378/.655
TOTAL: 289 ab, 24 r, 59 h, 32 bb, 13 2b, 7 hr, .204/.283/.322/.605

The offense was terrible the entire last 9 games of the season/postseason.
 

DrBoston

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I don't know why.... but I just don't like the Cubs. I like the Giants, but they've had plenty of success the past 8 years... I'd be fine with any of the BlueJays, Indians and Nats winning the whole thing. Mostly pulling for Cleveland now
Same here, something about the Cubs and their fans has always rubbed me the wrong way, but with Joe Maddon at the helm, they REALLY irk me. I'm actively rooting for them to lose. I hate the Jays, too, so I've got to go for either Cleveland (whoulda thunk?) or LA/DC

kind of shocked how Mookie admitted that now he realizes how important home field advantage is in the playoffs. It does fit though in how no one was talking about it the final week, it was all about Papi it seemed. Farrell has to take some major blame for this.
Big time. Yes, the players almost all fell on their faces, but the fact is that immediately after winning 11 straight, this team finished off losing 8 of 9. How Farrell skates on that, I don't know.