Alex Cora's first season

Adrian's Dome

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Bunting is another one of those things that looks easy and fundamentally isn't very difficult, but that doesn't necessarily translate to it actually being easy to do.

I'd imagine standing heavily in the box, bat forward, as a 90+ mph fastball is heading straight toward your fingers is a wee bit unsettling and probably something a lot of players don't like having to do. I get it. I didn't like having to do it against teenagers who threw a solid 20-30mph less.

I'd imagine it's one of those things that you practice if it's part of the necessary skillset for you to make the majors. You're a speedy glove-first slap hitter, you learn to bunt. You're a slow, big-power 1B, you don't. A guy like JBJ who has medium speed and medium power probably didn't put a whole lot into it and it shows in a situation like that.

I hope it's more of an isolated thing or maybe an early-season feeler than something Cora is going to try and consistently force.
 

The Gray Eagle

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Some of you must not watch much NL ball. Almost every pitcher can drop down a viable sacrifice bunt even when the other team knows it’s coming. It takes practice and willingness. If a major league hitter can’t do it, it’s because he hasn’t practiced it enough.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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We’re not talking about a guy who squared properly and his hand/eye coordination prevented him from getting a bunt down. We’re talking about a LHH above average speed center fielder who didn’t execute a proper sac bunt. I can walk a mile from my house, find a field and have a 10 year old explain what to do.

I sincerely hope the reason he’s on the bench today is so he’ll have time to think about what the hell he’s supposed to do when the third base coach signals SAC. There are no conversations today in Virginia or South Carolina or Fort Myers or Boston where coaches are wondering if they ever covered sac technique with JBJ. They all did. For some reason, he didn’t do it.

This is the baseball equivalent of a corner back intercepting a 30 yard pass on 4th down instead of knocking it down.
 

RedOctober3829

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Bunting is another one of those things that looks easy and fundamentally isn't very difficult, but that doesn't necessarily translate to it actually being easy to do.

I'd imagine standing heavily in the box, bat forward, as a 90+ mph fastball is heading straight toward your fingers is a wee bit unsettling and probably something a lot of players don't like having to do. I get it. I didn't like having to do it against teenagers who threw a solid 20-30mph less.

I'd imagine it's one of those things that you practice if it's part of the necessary skillset for you to make the majors. You're a speedy glove-first slap hitter, you learn to bunt. You're a slow, big-power 1B, you don't. A guy like JBJ who has medium speed and medium power probably didn't put a whole lot into it and it shows in a situation like that.

I hope it's more of an isolated thing or maybe an early-season feeler than something Cora is going to try and consistently force.
Everybody learns to bunt at the lowest levels of baseball. Division I college baseball players all through the lineup are asked to drop bunts down all the time. It's part of the game.
 

Adrian's Dome

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Everybody learns to bunt at the lowest levels of baseball. Division I college baseball players all through the lineup are asked to drop bunts down all the time. It's part of the game.
They're also not doing it against major league pitchers. I'm just saying, it may not be as easy as "welp, he should be able to do it no problem."
 

PaulinMyrBch

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They're also not doing it against major league pitchers. I'm just saying, it may not be as easy as "welp, he should be able to do it no problem."
I’m not killing the guy for not getting the bunt down. I’m killing him for not squaring for a sac and delaying his move like he was bunting for a hit. Pitcher can be throwing 120 and that doesn’t effect whether or not you were executing a sac properly. JBJ wasn’t. Every player in the majors can move his feet and have the bat at the top and front of the plate while the pitcher is in his motion.

This goes without saying, but....its much easier to get a sac down than successfully bunt for a hit, why do you think that might be?
 

Adrian's Dome

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I’m not killing the guy for not getting the bunt down. I’m killing him for not squaring for a sac and delaying his move like he was bunting for a hit. Pitcher can be throwing 120 and that doesn’t effect whether or not you were executing a sac properly. JBJ wasn’t. Every player in the majors can move his feet and have the bat at the top and front of the plate while the pitcher is in his motion.

This goes without saying, but....its much easier to get a sac down than successfully bunt for a hit, why do you think that might be?
And I'm not arguing that his execution wasn't shit. I'm just trying to say that bunting in the majors isn't the given some people are acting like it should be.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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I think he’s in that showing confidence in his players phase of rookie managing. Hopefully that grows into showing confidence in the players that actually deliver when you do that.
 

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That was a head scratcher. Had Devers, Swihart and Vazquez on the bench with bases loaded and 2 out in a 2-run game in the 8th. Leon should not have been batting there.
 

grimshaw

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I think he’s in that showing confidence in his players phase of rookie managing. Hopefully that grows into showing confidence in the players that actually deliver when you do that.
That's my thought as well. Jimy Williams did that a lot. There really isn't another explanation.
 

Rovin Romine

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Game 3 was won in spite of Cora - his lifting Porcello was an eminently defensible call, but after using Poyner to get the last out in the 7th, he brought him in for the #3 RHH in the 8th, who promptly homered, turning a 3-1 game to a 3-2 game. The 8th was R, L, R for the Rays, so it's not like there was a run of lefties after the one righty. (And that after not using Poyner in Game 1, because it was too much pressure on the darling child!)

He left Leon in to hit in a custom-made Swihart/Vazquez sub situation.

Carson Smith, who hasn't shown the best control, pitched the 8th without anyone warming.

I'd score Cora as 1 and 2, in terms of his managing helping help the team win v. his managing not playing to his player's strengths.

Granted, he's new, but as far as I'm concerned, tough cookies. He wanted the job. Now he has to deliver by making better decisions.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I’ll admit to not having watched much of the three games so far, but bring Poyner back out doesn’t bother me a ton; not being a slave to R/L matchups isn’t necessarily a bad thing imo. I did worry opening day when they blew that lead and Kimbrel never even got in the game; which seemed the converse of being a slave to relief usage.

It’s a long season and he’s a rookie, I think it’s kind of silly to expect him to be Tito out of the gate.
 

SumnerH

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Some of you must not watch much NL ball. Almost every pitcher can drop down a viable sacrifice bunt even when the other team knows it’s coming. It takes practice and willingness. If a major league hitter can’t do it, it’s because he hasn’t practiced it enough.
Sure. And with enough practice in the cage, Rick Ankiel can go from a miserable OPS+ of 48 as a pitcher to a credible 95 as a position player. All he had to do was practice more! But there's a limited amount of practice time; Ankiel’s was obviously largely spent working on pitching in the first half of his career. Do you want Ortiz and Rice practicing bunting enough to improve materially if it's going to cut into their practice time for actually hitting the ball?

Maybe you do, it depends on how much time it takes away from other things and how often it'll actually make a difference in-game. But it's certainly not obvious, and just saying “practice more” ignores the potential downside.
 

Jerry’s Curl

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I’ll admit to not having watched much of the three games so far, but bring Poyner back out doesn’t bother me a ton; not being a slave to R/L matchups isn’t necessarily a bad thing imo. I did worry opening day when they blew that lead and Kimbrel never even got in the game; which seemed the converse of being a slave to relief usage.

It’s a long season and he’s a rookie, I think it’s kind of silly to expect him to be Tito out of the gate.
Isn't this why he has Ron Roenicke to help him with his managerial inexperience?
 

soxhop411

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Be thankful we don’t have kapler. PHI fans are ready to run kapler out of town.

He just pulled a pitcher without anyone warming in the BP. And then when ATL complained the umps ejected the ATL manager.
 

grimshaw

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Game 3 was won in spite of Cora - his lifting Porcello was an eminently defensible call, but after using Poyner to get the last out in the 7th, he brought him in for the #3 RHH in the 8th, who promptly homered, turning a 3-1 game to a 3-2 game. The 8th was R, L, R for the Rays, so it's not like there was a run of lefties after the one righty. (And that after not using Poyner in Game 1, because it was too much pressure on the darling child!)
It has been stated several times that Poyner has a reverse split and has also been effective versus lefties. It is completely defensible. Particularly if you didn't care for what Smith and Kelly showed two days ago when people wanted Poyner in there.

Honestly - 3 freaking games.
 

Van Everyman

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That was a head scratcher. Had Devers, Swihart and Vazquez on the bench with bases loaded and 2 out in a 2-run game in the 8th. Leon should not have been batting there.
It is a time-honored tradition for SoSH members to complain about the catcher not being pinch hit for.

The point of giving catchers a day off is to give the catcher a day off. Especially during the third game of the season.

Edit: And yes, I realize they have a unique situation in fang they have two backup catchers on the roster this year. But if I had to guess, the last thing Cora wants is either Swihart catching an extra inning game or Vaz catching multiple innings on his day off.
 

Byrdbrain

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It is a time-honored tradition for SoSH members to complain about the catcher not being pinch hit for.

The point of giving catchers a day off is to give the catcher a day off. Especially during the third game of the season.
That is typically the case but the Sox have 3 guys who can catch one of whom hasn't been off of the bench yet.
I'm fine with giving Vaz the day but I'm surprised Leon hit there.
 

Rovin Romine

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It has been stated several times that Poyner has a reverse split and has also been effective versus lefties. It is completely defensible. Particularly if you didn't care for what Smith and Kelly showed two days ago when people wanted Poyner in there.

Honestly - 3 freaking games.
How many games does it take for a bad decision to be a bad decision?

I haven't seen the numbers on Poyner's reverse split. He's a lefty. Gomez is a righty. Perhaps someone should have stated something to him.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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How many games does it take for a bad decision to be a bad decision?

I haven't seen the numbers on Poyner's reverse split. He's a lefty. Gomez is a righty. Perhaps someone should have stated something to him.
About the same amount of games for a rookie manager to assess the abilities of a rookie pitcher. It’s a marathon not a sprint - finding out if Poyner is a LOOGY or a full on reliever has value. Frankly I want no part of a manager that just mechanically thinks ‘oh, a righty is coming up? Better get that lefty out of there!’
 

JBJ_HOF

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I haven't seen the numbers on Poyner's reverse split. He's a lefty. Gomez is a righty. Perhaps someone should have stated something to him.
Perhaps you should know Poyner's OPS allowed was 210 points lower vs right handed batters than left handed batters last year with a 35 percent strikeout rate?
 

joe dokes

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Perhaps you should know Poyner's OPS allowed was 210 points lower vs right handed batters than left handed batters last year with a 35 percent strikeout rate?
And Gomez is not a lefty masher.

Nevertheless, it's time to send the Mays kid back to Minneapolis.
 

grimshaw

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How many games does it take for a bad decision to be a bad decision?

I haven't seen the numbers on Poyner's reverse split. He's a lefty. Gomez is a righty. Perhaps someone should have stated something to him.
The non-Swihart or Devers pinch hit I think is a reasonable criticism. But the Poyner thing seems reactionary. He bailed out Hembree, then Cora basically had a choice between Smith and Kelly (Barnes had already pitched back to back). It wasn't a shocking development that Poyner came back out given the above numbers and Gomez not really being an MVP.
 

WheresDewey

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It's only three games in. I thought Swihart should have been hitting instead of Leon, too, but give Cora at least a month before we all turn on him. The same goes for the bullpen.
 

Pozo the Clown

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Everybody learns to bunt at the lowest levels of baseball. Division I college baseball players all through the lineup are asked to drop bunts down all the time. It's part of the game.
Rest assured, I was at today's game at the Trop and during batting pracice, JDM laid down 2 well-placed bunts. Spoiler alert: there is no sarcasm intentionally inserted in this post. When it comes to irony however...
 

Martin and Woods

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Sure. And with enough practice in the cage, Rick Ankiel can go from a miserable OPS+ of 48 as a pitcher to a credible 95 as a position player. All he had to do was practice more! But there's a limited amount of practice time; Ankiel’s was obviously largely spent working on pitching in the first half of his career. Do you want Ortiz and Rice practicing bunting enough to improve materially if it's going to cut into their practice time for actually hitting the ball?

Maybe you do, it depends on how much time it takes away from other things and how often it'll actually make a difference in-game. But it's certainly not obvious, and just saying “practice more” ignores the potential downside.
I'm probably not asking Ortiz or Rice or JDM to sacrifice (though it's obviously beneficial for a lefty power hitter who often faces shifts to be able to push a bunt down the left side), so no, I'm not asking them to spend hours practicing. Although as Pozo pointed out, even JDM squared around twice during BP (we always dropped down two bunts at the beginning of BP). I wonder how long NL pitchers practice in order to become proficient. I would, however, ask guys who typically hit lower in the order to sacrifice occasionally, and as PaulinMyrBch has said from the beginning of this discussion, I expect them to square around early, bat out front at the top of the zone. The bunt may or may not be successful, but every major leaguer should at least be able to attempt it the right way, and JBJ did not. This is not a drag bunt, no fancy sleight of hand needed. It's called a sacrifice for a reason; it's expected that you'll be thrown out at first. We've probably talked about this enough at this point.
 

Rovin Romine

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It's only three games in. I thought Swihart should have been hitting instead of Leon, too, but give Cora at least a month before we all turn on him. The same goes for the bullpen.
No one is turning on anybody. You're just seeing SoSH tribalism at it's best; criticism is inflated to pooping on the team that we all love.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Opening Day down 2-0 based loaded in the 9th for the Twins and Molitor pinch hit Grossman for Buxton. Grossman delivered a single. Of course, talk radio was questioning the move the next day, even though it worked, because folks are now worried that maybe the team isn't confident that Buxton is about to breakout as a superstar this year.

The point? Leon is a backup C who is supposed to be pinch hit for in that situation. He knows it. The crowd knows it. The rookie manager should know it and do it. There's no good excuse for not doing it.

Should be be fired? No. But if I'm DD I'd find a way to ask what he was thinking in that spot.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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Opening Day down 2-0 based loaded in the 9th for the Twins and Molitor pinch hit Grossman for Buxton. Grossman delivered a single. Of course, talk radio was questioning the move the next day, even though it worked, because folks are now worried that maybe the team isn't confident that Buxton is about to breakout as a superstar this year.

The point? Leon is a backup C who is supposed to be pinch hit for in that situation. He knows it. The crowd knows it. The rookie manager should know it and do it. There's no good excuse for not doing it.

Should be be fired? No. But if I'm DD I'd find a way to ask what he was thinking in that spot.
You actually want the GM to meddle with the manager's decision making three games into the season? That would be beyond stupid IMO. Cora was hired because DD thought he was the best candidate for what the Organization wanted to achieve. And you are suggesting they second guess that decision after three games?

There are perfectly rational reasons for keeping Leon in the game. They may view him as their best defensive catcher - or, at the very least, the best equipped C for the pitchers they planned to use. After all, they had the lead already. Also, pinch hitting is difficult skill. Just because they had options on the bench who are better hitters doesn't mean they would be a better option in that instance.

Not to mention the fact that Cora is probably trying to get a feel for how is players perform in big situations.

For what it's worth I would have PH for Leon. But I'm not ripping the manager for not doing it.
 

williams_482

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Perhaps you should know Poyner's OPS allowed was 210 points lower vs right handed batters than left handed batters last year with a 35 percent strikeout rate?
He faced 240 batters last season. That's nowhere near enough to make a determination on his true talent left/right splits, and Cora should (and probably does) know this.

Poyner had neutral splits in 262 PAs in 2016, and a large conventional split in 101 PAs in 2015. The Book says that we should regress a lefty pitcher's platoon split by adding about 450 PAs of normal-split performance against left handed hitters. Considering Poyner has just 190 PAs against lefties for his entire minor league career, with what amounts to a very small reverse split in aggregate, it would be unwise to assume his true talent split is noticeably different from a typical lefty pitcher.

Of course, that doesn't mean sending him out there to face a right handed batter was inherently stupid.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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You actually want the GM to meddle with the manager's decision making three games into the season? That would be beyond stupid IMO. Cora was hired because DD thought he was the best candidate for what the Organization wanted to achieve. And you are suggesting they second guess that decision after three games?

There are perfectly rational reasons for keeping Leon in the game. They may view him as their best defensive catcher - or, at the very least, the best equipped C for the pitchers they planned to use. After all, they had the lead already. Also, pinch hitting is difficult skill. Just because they had options on the bench who are better hitters doesn't mean they would be a better option in that instance.

Not to mention the fact that Cora is probably trying to get a feel for how is players perform in big situations.

For what it's worth I would have PH for Leon. But I'm not ripping the manager for not doing it.
Nope. Didn't say I wanted him to "meddle." Just find out cora's thinking, because it went against convention and didn't work. So you use it as an opportunity to review the decision-making process. I'll concede that you are correct - there could have been other contextual reasons not to pinch hit. So ask.

That's what good organizations do. They don't just raise an eyebrow and ignore learning moments. Maybe Cora's reasoning was sound. The GM should want to know.
 
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Al Zarilla

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I'm probably not asking Ortiz or Rice or JDM to sacrifice (though it's obviously beneficial for a lefty power hitter who often faces shifts to be able to push a bunt down the left side), so no, I'm not asking them to spend hours practicing. Although as Pozo pointed out, even JDM squared around twice during BP (we always dropped down two bunts at the beginning of BP). I wonder how long NL pitchers practice in order to become proficient. I would, however, ask guys who typically hit lower in the order to sacrifice occasionally, and as PaulinMyrBch has said from the beginning of this discussion, I expect them to square around early, bat out front at the top of the zone. The bunt may or may not be successful, but every major leaguer should at least be able to attempt it the right way, and JBJ did not.
I agree that every major leaguer should/must know how to bunt. Like Ted said, the hardest thing in all of sports is to hit a round ball with a round bat. If a guy can learn that well enough to make the majors, he can learn how to bunt. If there are any exemptions, I guess they would be the Williamses and Ortizes of the world.
 

In my lifetime

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I think part of this angst was just the pre-season feeling that Cora was a manager, who was going to lean heavily on analytics. This sometimes does conflict with players' egos, since it isn't a Strat-o-matic game. However, the hope was that he would get the players to buy-in to the philosophy that in many situations the historical numbers will determine the move. I am sure (or at least hopeful) that it is a work in progress, that after gaining the players' confidence and understanding, Cora will be able to start to lean on analytics more and players' sensitivities less. I think we have already started to see the transformation:

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2018/03/craig_kimbrel_boston_red_sox_m.html

It was not realistic to expect Cora to institute these changes instantly without risking losing clubhouse. I think Cora's position after the loss shows he is more than willing to have these tough conversations, but sometimes you need to wait until after a lesson is learned by the team as a whole, ie, it is a lot more effective having the conversation after the loss, when your point is proven.
 

Marbleheader

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Interesting move to leave Poyner in to start the 8th. I guess Kiermaier raked against Barnes in the past. Got him to fly out to left then went to Barnes.

Also, using Barnes against the better hitters and leaving Kelly to pitch the 9th against the bottom of the order.

Bullpen moves worked out.
 

riboflav

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Typical embarrassing SoSH thread of the last few years.

So, end of the first weekend and the Sox are in first place and are a one-inning meltdown by their best set-up men who DD provided from being 4-0 and SoSH is already wondering about the manager's competence. Seems so talk radio.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Typical embarrassing SoSH thread of the last few years.

So, end of the first weekend and the Sox are in first place and are a one-inning meltdown by their best set-up men who DD provided from being 4-0 and SoSH is already wondering about the manager's competence. Seems so talk radio.
the results are there so far, but the process feels entirely old so far.

it's 4 games. we all know that. but how about the baserunning? Tampa has great defense at catcher, yes, but like 5 outs on the bases already. way too aggressive sending Holt home today too.
 

charlieoscar

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Some of you must not watch much NL ball. Almost every pitcher can drop down a viable sacrifice bunt even when the other team knows it’s coming. It takes practice and willingness. If a major league hitter can’t do it, it’s because he hasn’t practiced it enough.
One of the problems I see with AL batters, or at least non-pitchers, trying to sacrifice is that many of them expect to also get a hit on the bunt. They don't set up in a bunting stance but try to hide the fact that they intend to sacrifice and they end up poking at the ball.
 

grimshaw

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3 of 4 on the road is 3 of 4 on the road. Their top set up men didn't get the job done one inning and they lost that one game. Their pen had the #1 WPA in the league last year and I kind of doubt they are going to repeat that, so we'll likely see more meltdowns due to bad luck.

It's more of an observation than a sky is falling pronouncement that they do look almost exactly like last years team so far. Lots of stranded runners with little power, the odd base running sends, and the one head scratcher with Leon hitting in the highest leverage spot in the game.

A positive is that Cora may be more flexible in not running his position players into the ground. I have no issues with him resting regulars as long as he doesn't play Holt 3 times a week.

All that said - I don't think Tampa sucks that much. The bats probably aren't there but they always come up with good pitching and it may be enough to keep them semi competitive.
 
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lexrageorge

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So, with one series down, we have two marginally questionable moves by Cora so far:

- Bringing in Smith instead of Kimbrel at the bottom of the 8th. That move, however, is countered by the fact that Kimbrel had a very limited spring training, and the team cannot use Kimbrel in every single high-leverage situation that comes up over the course of the 162 game season anyway.

- Not pinch hitting for Leon. A move that is explainable by the fact that Cora may still be trying to figure out exactly what he has with his bench players, and so wants to give guys like Leon every opportunity at this point in the season to hit when the situation arises.

Any other criticism is simply nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.