All-time great teams

BaseballJones

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From: https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-power-rankings-who-has-best-all-time-team-easy-pick-for-no-1-dodgers-miss-top-10/

Their top 10, in order:

1. Yankees
2. Tigers
3. Giants
4. Cardinals
5. Red Sox
6. Reds
7. Athletics
8. Braves
9. Cubs
10. Indians

Anyone interested in posting their best 25-man squads for these teams? The Yankees' lineup is obviously absurd. But the Red Sox' rotation features in-their-primes Roger Clemens, Pedro Martinez, Cy Young, and Lefty Grove. Holy crap. Koji (yes Koji) prime closer seasons at the back end. Even the lineup is obviously ridiculous, featuring in-their-prime guys like Ted, Yaz, Rice, Mookie, Ortiz, Manny, Nomar, Bogaerts, Boggs, Pedroia, 1938 Jimmy Foxx (.349, 50 hr, 175 rbi, 1.166 ops), Cronin, 1912 Tris Speaker, Fisk, etc. Good lord.
 
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tims4wins

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Bullpen: Koji, Kimbrel, Paps, Foulke, Wagner, Eck. Do Eck and Wagner count?? Dear lord that’d be ridiculous.
 

BaseballJones

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Eck wouldn’t count unless you take his last year with the Sox because he didn’t become a stud reliever until he was with Oakland, if I recall correctly. You’d get the portion of the season Wagner pitched for the Sox. Which was good but only a relative handful of appearances. I’d throw in Radatz.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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For reference, the author of the team rankings began be creating all time rosters for each franchise. This was his Red Sox list:

Starting Lineup:
Boggs, 3B
Betts, RF
Williams, LF
Foxx, 1B
Ortiz, DH
Garciaparra, SS
Speaker, CF
Fisk, C
Pedroia, 2B

Rotation:
Clemens
Martinez
Young
Grove

Closer:
Papelbon

Bench:
Yaz, Evans, Rice, Doerr, Varitek
 

Seels

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What possible argument would the Tigers have for #2? Who is their pitching lineup aside from Verlander and Trout (both good pitchers, but certainly not inner circle types)?

I don't know, maybe I'm biased, but Sox should be two at the lowest. They almost match the Yankees in offensive firepower and have the best pitching by a considerable amount.

I see his Tigers team -- very middle of the pack.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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Without looking at his lineups, i think the Braves are underrated

Maddux, glavine, Smoltz, Warren Spahn, Phil Neikro, mark wholers, craig Kimbrel,

Hank Aaron, eddie matthews, chipper jones, andruw jones, Dale murphy, mcgriff, Joe Torre, Joe Adcock

Plus some old timey guys who put up crazy WAR numbers

Does this team hit more homers than anyone other than the Yankees?
 

Mr. Wednesday

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What possible argument would the Tigers have for #2? Who is their pitching lineup aside from Verlander and Trout (both good pitchers, but certainly not inner circle types)?
Newhouser is in the Hall of Fame (and tops the pitching WAR list for them at your link).
 

Bread of Yaz

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Mar 12, 2019
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For reference, the author of the team rankings began be creating all time rosters for each franchise. This was his Red Sox list:

Starting Lineup:
Boggs, 3B
Betts, RF
Williams, LF
Foxx, 1B
Ortiz, DH
Garciaparra, SS
Speaker, CF
Fisk, C
Pedroia, 2B

Rotation:
Clemens
Martinez
Young
Grove

Closer:
Papelbon

Bench:
Yaz, Evans, Rice, Doerr, Varitek

Speaker amassed well over half his WAR with the Indians. So:

1. Cut Speaker
2. Mookie to CF
3. Ted to RF
4. Carl in LF
 

BaseballJones

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My Sox' 25-man roster:

C - 1977 Carlton Fisk - .315/.402/.521/.922, 138 ops+, 26 hr, 102 rbi
1b - 1938 Jimmie Foxx - .349/.462/.704/1.186, 182 ops+, 50 hr, 175 rbi
2b - 2008 Dustin Pedroia - .326/.376/.493/.869, 123 ops+, 54 2b, 17 hr
3b - 1987 Wade Boggs - .363/.461/.588/1.049, 174 ops+, 24 hr
SS - 2000 Nomar Garciaparra - .372/.434/.599/1.033, 156 ops+, 51 2b, 21 hr
LF - 1967 Carl Yastrzemski - .326/.418/.622/1.040, 193 ops+, 44 hr, 121 rbi
CF - 1912 Tris Speaker - .383/.464/.567/1.031, 189 ops+, 53 2b, 13 3b, 10 hr
RF - 2018 Mookie Betts - .346/.438/.640/1.078, 186 ops+, 47 2b, 32 hr, 30 sb
DH - 1941 Ted Williams - .406/.553/.735/1.278, 235 ops+, 37 hr, 120 rbi
C - 2004 Jason Varitek - .296/.390/.482/.872, 122 ops+, 22 hr, 70 rbi
IF - 1944 Bobby Doerr - .325/.399/.528/.927, 165 ops+, 30 2b, 10 3b, 15 hr
IF - 2019 Xander Bogaerts - .309/.384/.555/.939, 140 ops+, 52 2b, 33 hr, 117 rbi
OF - 2002 Manny Ramirez - .349/.450/.647/1.097, 184 ops+, 33 hr, 107 rbi
OF - 1978 Jim Rice - .315/.370/.600/.970, 157 ops+, 15 3b, 46 hr, 139 rbi
U - 2007 David Ortiz - .332/.445/.621/1.066, 171 ops+, 52 2b, 35 hr, 117 rbi

SP - 2000 Pedro Martinez - 18-6, 1.74 era, 291 era+, 0.74 whip, 11.8 k/9
SP - 1990 Roger Clemens - 21-6, 1.93 era, 211 era+, 1.08 whip, 8.2 k/9
SP - 1901 Cy Young - 33-10, 1.62 era, 219 era+, 0.97 whip, 3.8 k/9
SP - 1936 Lefty Grove - 17-12, 2.81 era, 189 era+, 1.19 whip, 4.6 k/9
RP - 1963 Dick Radatz - 15-6, 1.97 era, 192 era+, 1.10 whip, 11.0 k/9
RP - 2007 Hideki Okajima - 3-2, 2.22 era, 215 era+, 0.97 whip, 8.2 k/9
RP - 2004 Keith Foulke - 5-3, 2.17 era, 223 era+, 0.94 whip, 8.6 k/9
RP - 2017 Craig Kimbrel - 5-0, 1.43 era, 319 era+, 0.68 whip, 16.4 k/9
RP - 2006 Jonathan Papelbon - 4-2, 0.92 era, 517 era+, 0.78 whip, 9.9 k/9
RP - 2013 Koji Uehara - 4-1, 1.09 era, 379 era+, 0.57 whip, 12.2 k/9

Lineup:
CF Speaker (.464 obp)
3b Boggs (.461 obp)
RF Betts (1.078 ops)
DH Williams (1.278 ops)
1b Foxx (1.186 ops)
LF Yastrzemski (1.040 ops)
SS Garciaparra (1.033 ops)
C Fisk (.922 ops)
2b Pedroia (.376 obp)

Bench: Varitek, Doerr, Bogaerts, Ramirez, Rice, Ortiz

That is one hell of a team. Insane lineup. Inner circle HOF rotation. Uber-dominant bullpen. Good speed, tons of power. Huge obp guys. And lots of guys who played good defense too.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
What possible argument would the Tigers have for #2? Who is their pitching lineup aside from Verlander and Trout (both good pitchers, but certainly not inner circle types)?
I agree, their pitching historically is relatively weak, and their offense, while formidable, is not noticeably superior to the Sox'.

But honestly, I might put the Athletics above both, and right in the #2 slot:

c -- Mickey Cochrane
1b -- Jimmie Foxx
2b -- Eddie Collins
ss -- Bert Campaneris
3b -- Sal Bando
lf -- Rickey Henderson
cf-- Al Simmons
rf - Reggie Jackson
dh -- Home Run Baker

bench -- Mark McGwire, Bob Johnson, Max Bishop, Eric Chavez, Terry Steinbach

OK, the left side infield is ordinary, as is the bench -- but otherwise that's a bonafide cast of immortals. Now the pitching staff:

SP - Lefty Grove, Eddie Plank, Chief Bender, Rube Waddell, Catfish Hunter
RP - Eck, Rollie Fingers, Eddie Rommel
Swing -- Vida Blue, Tim Hudson, Dave Stewart

I mean, dayum.

Speaking of franchises with great pitching, I'm kind of wondering how the Dodgers didn't beat out the Indians or Cubs for a slot. Yeah, their all-time starting lineup is not quite in the same class as some of the others, and maybe looks weaker because so much of it is from the same era, but damn...you'd need a ten-man rotation to get all that franchise's mound legends in.
 

Kliq

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What possible argument would the Tigers have for #2? Who is their pitching lineup aside from Verlander and Trout (both good pitchers, but certainly not inner circle types)?

I don't know, maybe I'm biased, but Sox should be two at the lowest. They almost match the Yankees in offensive firepower and have the best pitching by a considerable amount.

I see his Tigers team -- very middle of the pack.
I don't think I would put them at #2, but Detroit has a pretty good team built around all-around hitters and not just a bunch of power guys. Cobb, Kaline and Gehringer in the outfield and then Greenberg/Miggy on the corners to drive them in. Whitaker/Trammel as the double play combo. 11x All-Star Bill Freehan behind the plate. Harry Heilmann (4x batting champ, career .342 hitter), Sam Crawford (career OPS+ of 144, all time leader in triples) coming off the bench.

Pitching wise they would be pretty solid. Newhouser is in the HoF. Scherzer and Verlander will be one day. Lolich isn't quite a HoF pitcher but is pretty close, was a complete horse in his prime, and was the 68 World Series MVP when he won three games in the series, throwing three complete games. Jack Morris is in the HoF and spent almost his entire career in Detroit. If you are going by just their best single season, you can add Denny McLain and Mark Fidrych. Not a lot of sexy names, but there is plenty of talent there.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Cobb, Kaline and Gehringer in the outfield
Gehringer played all but six of his 2300+ MLB games at second base, and never played in the outfield at all.

Heilmann rounds out the Cobb/Kaline outfield, with Gehringer pushing Whitaker to the utility infielder slot (not a slam dunk, but I think it's fair to say that Gehringer had the better career).
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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The problem with the Dodgers is their outfield. They really don't have a ton of production out there, beyond Duke Snider, while other teams are just loaded.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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The problem with the Dodgers is their outfield. They really don't have a ton of production out there, beyond Duke Snider, while other teams are just loaded.
The Reds don't have much in the way of pitching, but they are ranked 6th

How many of their Top 10 WAR pitchers can you name?

1. Noodles Hahn 45.8
2. Eppa Rixey 40.9
3. Dolf Luque 38.2
4. Bucky Walters 37.8
5. Frank Dwyer 37.3
6. Jose Rijo 36.4
7. Tony Mullane 35.5
8. Jim Maloney 34.4
9. Paul Derringer 32.8
10. Will White 28.4
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Where would you rank the post-1962 franchises? The Astros seem to stand out as the best, with the Mariners, Expos/Nats, Mets, and Jays close behind. Royals, Brewers and Angels are a tier below, with the other six trailing--although the Marlins actually have an impressive starting lineup, the caveat being that many of them played the bulk of their career elsewhere:

H. Ramirez ss
Yelich cf
Stanton rf
M. Cabrera dh
Floyd lf
Lowell 3b
Uggla 2b
Conine 1b
Realmuto c

I mean, that is relentless. Too bad their pitching has never been up to that standard--their top pitchers list is full of the kind of guys that ended up on your fantasy team because you went for saves and stolen bases in the middle rounds.
 

jose melendez

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I really wonder if the Sox wouldn't take that Yankees team in a 7 game series. The SP discrepancy is pretty pronounced. Guidry had that one amazing season but then Pedro had three years better with the Sox.

I mean Andy Petite is their #4
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
The problem with the Dodgers is their outfield. They really don't have a ton of production out there, beyond Duke Snider, while other teams are just loaded.
Zack Wheat was a legit star, and Babe Herman and Pedro Guerrero were both outstanding hitters, albeit with relatively short careers (either would rank in the top 5 all-time in career OPS+ among Red Sox outfielders, behind only Williams, Speaker, Manny, and Lynn).

But yeah, it's not like the Sox/Yankees/Tigers situation where you have Hall of Famers jockeying for the 4th OF slot.
 

dynomite

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I really wonder if the Sox wouldn't take that Yankees team in a 7 game series. The SP discrepancy is pretty pronounced. Guidry had that one amazing season but then Pedro had three years better with the Sox.

I mean Andy Petite is their #4
Yup. I think the Sox are the odds on favorite, and would lay some money on them. Give me our order (Ted, Foxx, Manny, Papi is... hilarious. I'm literally laughing as I type that) and 99/00 Pedro in Game 1 and 86-90 Clemens in Game 2 and we're up 2-0 on every other team.

Where would you rank the post-1962 franchises? The Astros seem to stand out as the best, with the Mariners, Expos/Nats, Mets, and Jays close behind.
Frankly, I think we're sleeping on the Mariners. I know they have some low spots, but their high spots? C'mon. Just look at that Top 5 in their order. LOOK AT IT. And then consider Randy & 2010 King Felix starting those games. How many hits are landing in an OF with Junior and Ichiro??? And that's all without fudging and sticking Nelson Cruz in LF.

1) Ichiro, RF
2) ARod, SS
3) Griffey Jr., CF
4) Edgar, DH
5) Beltre, 3B
6) Bret Boone, 2B*
7) Olreud, 1B
8) Raul Ibanez, LF
9 Zunino, C

* If steroids rule out Boone, do they also rule out Robbie Cano here as a replacement?

SP1) Randy Johnson
SP2) King Felix
SP3) Jamie Moyer
SP4) James Paxton

Closer: Edwin Diaz
 

Kliq

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Yup. I think the Sox are the odds on favorite, and would lay some money on them. Give me our order (Ted, Foxx, Manny, Papi is... hilarious. I'm literally laughing as I type that) and 99/00 Pedro in Game 1 and 86-90 Clemens in Game 2 and we're up 2-0 on every other team.



Frankly, I think we're sleeping on the Mariners. I know they have some low spots, but their high spots? C'mon. Just look at that Top 5 in their order. LOOK AT IT. And then consider Randy & 2010 King Felix starting those games. How many hits are landing in an OF with Junior and Ichiro??? And that's all without fudging and sticking Nelson Cruz in LF.

1) Ichiro, RF
2) ARod, SS
3) Griffey Jr., CF
4) Edgar, DH
5) Beltre, 3B
6) Bret Boone, 2B*
7) Olreud, 1B
8) Raul Ibanez, LF
9 Zunino, C

* If steroids rule out Boone, do they also rule out Robbie Cano here as a replacement?

SP1) Randy Johnson
SP2) King Felix
SP3) Jamie Moyer
SP4) James Paxton

Closer: Edwin Diaz
The combo of Manny/Ted/Foxx/Ortiz is such an OPS monster; although you’d have to get a little creative with the positioning to say the least. Speaker and Boggs would score every time they’d be on base (which would be quite frequently).
 

dynomite

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The combo of Manny/Ted/Foxx/Ortiz is such an OPS monster; although you’d have to get a little creative with the positioning to say the least. Speaker and Boggs would score every time they’d be on base (which would be quite frequently).
Oh, completely. How about that 3/4/5/6 meat of the order with Boggs leading off (say the 1988 version with a .476 OBP... and only 34 Ks in the entire season!) and Mookie behind him (say the 2018 version with a .438 OBP, 32 HR, 30 SB)?

Put any pitcher ever against that and I like our chances.
 

Kliq

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Oh, completely. How about that 3/4/5/6 meat of the order with Boggs leading off (say the 1988 version with a .476 OBP... and only 34 Ks in the entire season!) and Mookie behind him (say the 2018 version with a .438 OBP, 32 HR, 30 SB)?

Put any pitcher ever against that and I like our chances.
Yeah, somehow I wish you could play Mookie at 2B, so you can get him into the lineup. I suppose you can play him at CF (already cheating by sticking one of Ted/Manny in RF). Speaker in 1914 hit .383 with 222 hits, 53 doubles and 52 steals, OPS+ of 189 and great defense, so I kind of want to put him in center. The lineup is so loaded you kind of want to think about batting Boggs in the 9 hole so you can have people on base for the leadoff guy.
 

jaytftwofive

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Without looking at his lineups, i think the Braves are underrated

Maddux, glavine, Smoltz, Warren Spahn, Phil Neikro, mark wholers, craig Kimbrel,

Hank Aaron, eddie matthews, chipper jones, andruw jones, Dale murphy, mcgriff, Joe Torre, Joe Adcock

Plus some old timey guys who put up crazy WAR numbers

Does this team hit more homers than anyone other than the Yankees?
You forgot Eddie Matthews.
 

jaytftwofive

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Jan 20, 2013
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Drexel Hill Pa.
Without looking at his lineups, i think the Braves are underrated

Maddux, glavine, Smoltz, Warren Spahn, Phil Neikro, mark wholers, craig Kimbrel,

Hank Aaron, eddie matthews, chipper jones, andruw jones, Dale murphy, mcgriff, Joe Torre, Joe Adcock

Plus some old timey guys who put up crazy WAR numbers

Does this team hit more homers than anyone other than the Yankees?
Ooops I see him. Sorry!
 

BuellMiller

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Mar 25, 2015
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Oh, completely. How about that 3/4/5/6 meat of the order with Boggs leading off (say the 1988 version with a .476 OBP... and only 34 Ks in the entire season!) and Mookie behind him (say the 2018 version with a .438 OBP, 32 HR, 30 SB)?

Put any pitcher ever against that and I like our chances.
I guess a real question mark with these...are you looking at the players careers or their single best season? Or a 3 year or 7 year peak? If you're looking at best seasons, Ruth is "only" 3.5 bWAR above Betts for RF, but a look at their careers (or even best 5 seasons) gives a bit different picture (about 12.5 for Ruth vs 7.9 for Betts). (And maybe that's not the best example, since I forgot Ruth's 1923 (14.1!) was such a beastly year, best offensive season in the 20th century).
But looking at top 3 WAR seasons, averaged for the following lineups:
Williams (DH): 10.5
Fisk (C): 6.7
Foxx (1B): 6.7
Pedroia (2B): 7.0
Boggs (3B): 8.6
Nomar (SS): 7.1
Yaz (LF): 10.8
Speaker (CF): 9.5
Betts (RF): 9.0

Pedro: 9.8
Clemens: 9.5
Cy Young: 10.6
Grove: 10.1
Papelbon: 3.9 (if we were going with 3 year peaks and just looking at WAR, for reliever, we probably should go with Radatz, though, averaged about 6 for his first 3 years)

Offense: 75.9
Pitching: 43.9
Total: 119.8

vs
(using their Yankee lineup and pitching)
Jackson DH: 4.3 (although add pretty much any other of their good hitters and they'd probably do better. Mattingly: 6.5
Berra C: 6.0
Gehrig 1B: 10.6
Cano 2B: 7.7
Arod 3B: 8.8
Jeter SS: 7.4
Dimaggio LF: 8.7
Mantle CF: 11.0
Ruth RF: 13.1

Ford: 3.8 (WAR was about as kind to Whitey as pretzel night)
Guidry: 7.1
Pettitte: 5.9
Chandler: 4.8
Rivera: 4.5


Offense: 77.6 (79.8 with Mattlingly at DH)
Pitching: 26.1 (this could be improved with some more WAR friendly pitchers. Like Lefty Gomez, Red Ruffing, or Herb Pennock could be slight improvements, but still none of them as good as the Red Sox 4 aces.

Offenses are very close with a slight edge to the Yankees, but as others have posited, the pitching advantage for the Red Sox is pretty high. (And i'd assume it would get bigger if you added in deeper staffs. And the Red Sox seem to have some other position players to add in that would probably help as a little more than the Yankees. (Although the Yankees could add in 3 years of Rickey Henderson and do pretty well at 7.5).