Analysis of Celtics Games (2020-2021)

radsoxfan

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I’d add on Pritchard that he was pretty good on the ball, less so off the ball. That distinction may have fueled the dichotomy others had in their assessments
I'm pretty optimistic about Pritchard being a useful offensive piece off the bench eventually (maybe even this year). His on ball D is OK in the right matchup, but he is going to get crushed by starter level or better wings.

One thing he needs to do is improve his help defense and take a lot of charges. If he is a half step slow on rotations he's predictably useless but with time hopefully he can anticipate better and be in better position.

There is currently such a huge drop-off in talent between Tatum, Jaylen, Smart (and Kemba) with the rest of the team offensively. Some league average production from a few of the young guys off the bench would make a world of difference.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm pretty optimistic about Pritchard being a useful offensive piece off the bench eventually (maybe even this year). His on ball D is OK in the right matchup, but he is going to get crushed by stater level or better wings.

One thing he needs to do is improve his help defense and take a lot of charges. If he is a half step slow on rotations he's predictably useless but with time hopefully he can anticipate better and be in better position.

There is currently such a huge drop-off in talent between Tatum, Jaylen, Smart (and Kemba) with the rest of the team offensively. Some league average production from a few of the young guys off the bench would make a world of difference.
I agree with all of this except I think Teague may belong in that group, or at least not lumped in with the rest of the team. I'd also like to see more of Nesmith but I'm guessing the problem there is defense.
 

lovegtm

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I'm pretty optimistic about Pritchard being a useful offensive piece off the bench eventually (maybe even this year). His on ball D is OK in the right matchup, but he is going to get crushed by starter level or better wings.

One thing he needs to do is improve his help defense and take a lot of charges. If he is a half step slow on rotations he's predictably useless but with time hopefully he can anticipate better and be in better position.

There is currently such a huge drop-off in talent between Tatum, Jaylen, Smart (and Kemba) with the rest of the team offensively. Some league average production from a few of the young guys off the bench would make a world of difference.
I mean—most backup PGs get crushed by starter-level wings lol.

I am glad that he clearly belongs physically on D. He just needs a ton more playing time to improve at team defense. Welcome to life as a rookie in the NBA.
 

radsoxfan

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I mean—most backup PGs get crushed by starter-level wings lol.

I am glad that he clearly belongs physically on D. He just needs a ton more playing time to improve at team defense. Welcome to life as a rookie in the NBA.
"Crushed" being the operative word. Obviously that's going to be a bad matchup for most backup PGs, but a guy like Wannamaker (not that I'm sad to see him gone) is going to make it more competitive.

When Pritchard had a couple of possessions against LaVert, it was predictably very ugly.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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More fundamentally, my understanding was that the seal was legal so long as the offensive player beats the defender to the spot and is merely holding their ground, like in a post up or boxing out situation. Is that wrong, and there is actually a penalty being committed by a player sealing a defender when the sealing player has position? In order for it to be a point of emphasis, the act would actually need to be against the rules in the first place.
As perhaps can be seen from the post below, I'm having a hard time figuring out what is legal and what is not. Announcers (Doris, I believe) we're saying something about TT/TheIs hooking a defender with their off hand. I didn't really see it.

Hopefully yesterday was just an aberration because as has been posted multiple times before, TheIs for one is really good at sealing.
FYI - 2 minute report says this was an incorrect call
https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0022000003
Yeah saw that, thanks. Good thing I'm not reffing.
 

NomarsFool

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TT seems to have had a tough time putting his offensive boards in the hoop. Kanter certainly has his defensive shortcomings, but he was money on picking up those little shots. I miss him being able to come in and pick up with 8-10 points in a couple of 5-6 minute shifts.

With Tatum or Brown on the bench, this team really struggles to score. Teague played great against the Bucks, but it wasn't there for him vs. the Nets. Somebody needs to be able to regularly put up 12-14 points a game for this team. I was hoping it might be GW - but he still doesn't seem there yet.
 

mcpickl

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2 Game sample size warning

Theis
4.0 3PA/G
1.5 2PA/G

Career:
1.2 3PA/G
3.6 2PA/G

I also think this team desperately needs more size. I don't even think that size has to be all that talented. There's no reason to have both Edwards and Waters on this team, especially when there is already PP, Teague and Kemba. Move on from Edwards and get a big body. If one of Theis, TT or TL can't suit up, it's a killer. I wonder if Jaxson Hayes or Moritz Wagner are available at all.
You think they need a 4th center?

That's the spot where they're the deepest.

The badly need another wing/forward so they won't be forced to play Thompson and Theis together.
 

Cesar Crespo

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You think they need a 4th center?

That's the spot where they're the deepest.

The badly need another wing/forward so they won't be forced to play Thompson and Theis together.
I said size, not necessarily a center. I just think a center would be easier to acquire than another wing to pair with Theis or Thompson. If those 2 and TL are healthy most of the year, it's not that big a concern. I'm just not sure that will be the case.

And I'd say their deepest spot is short PGs. I'm not really suggesting anything major, just replacing Edwards for size.
 

mcpickl

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I said size, not necessarily a center. I just think a center would be easier to acquire than another wing to pair with Theis or Thompson. If those 2 and TL are healthy most of the year, it's not that big a concern. I'm just not sure that will be the case.

And I'd say their deepest spot is short PGs.
That's true, but the two guys you mentioned to trade for are both centers.

It would definitely be easier to acquire another center, they're fairly plentiful. It just doesn't solve any real issues for the Celtics.

And I disagree on the short PGs. If they can't play, I don't think that's depth. They're just roster filler.
 

Cesar Crespo

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That's true, but the two guys you mentioned to trade for are both centers.

It would definitely be easier to acquire another center, they're fairly plentiful. It just doesn't solve any real issues for the Celtics.

And I disagree on the short PGs. If they can't play, I don't think that's depth. They're just roster filler.
Fair enough, I guess I'd rather just have more diversity among my roster filler than a bunch of guards under 6 ft tall. I guess Hayes and Wagner would qualify as more than roster filler tho.

But yea, acquiring a center to warm the bench that will never play doesn't solve any real issues for the Celtics. I just think it's a better use of resources than Carsen Edwards.

They do need more size for the actual rotation too, and definitely not a center.
 

chilidawg

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Problem I'm seeing is in the rotations. Play Theis and Thompson together and you get Theis as a volume 3 point shooter. Play Pritchard and Teague together and one of them gets roasted trying to defend wings. I'd go smaller with Teague starting, bring Thompson and Pritchard off the bench, use Smart more at the 2. It makes them smaller, but at least eliminates having two players with similar deficiencies on the court together.

Edit: Coach Spins with a good look at the problems of the two big lineup:

https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/12/26/22200045/starting-tristan-thompson-and-daniel-theis-a-cost-benefit-analysis
 
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NomarsFool

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CBS seems to really like those 2 PG lineups. He played BW and KW a lot together last season. Although it’s a little tough to judge as he might think PP is better than his available wing options. It is a bit surprising how little Nesmith has seen the floor.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think your PI analogy is correct but just to be clear, TT's arm is making contact with Giannis at 9 seconds before Giannis makes contact with TT. The clip at 21 seconds is a different angle which makes it looks like TT is holding Giannis's arm down.

Given how strong Giannis is, to me it's just jockeying for position but that's a tough call to make in real time.

I expect that the call will be confirmed when the NBA last 2 minute review comes out.
The NBA could not have been more clear in the two minute report the call was wrong.

“ Thompson (BOS) and Antetokounmpo (MIL) both make a legal attempt to reach the inbound pass, and the contact should have been deemed incidental.”

https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0022000003
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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Why does this thread exist?
Selfishly I like it even though I won't be posting in it because I don't watch very many games but I do follow how they are doing all year. Sometimes I read game threads when I have time, but this seems like a perfect thread for me to follow throughout the year.
 

the moops

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I said size, not necessarily a center. I just think a center would be easier to acquire than another wing to pair with Theis or Thompson. If those 2 and TL are healthy most of the year, it's not that big a concern. I'm just not sure that will be the case.
Aaron Gordon makes a ton of sense for this team. Slides right into the "kinda stretchy" 4 that is super athletic and allows at least a 2/3/4 switch with Brown/Tatum/Gordon. I would love to send a future pick, one or two of the young guys, and the TPE for him
 

benhogan

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Aaron Gordon makes a ton of sense for this team. Slides right into the "kinda stretchy" 4 that is super athletic and allows at least a 2/3/4 switch with Brown/Tatum/Gordon. I would love to send a future pick, one or two of the young guys, and the TPE for him
looks good in jeans, other than that he's pretty pedestrian

I'd rather try to develop (give minutes to) Granite, Nesmith over the next few months, hold off on immediately blowing $19MM of the TPE, and see what the sellers have available at the trade deadline.

Selling low on Romeo and giving away a pick feels short-sighted this early in the season
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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looks good in jeans, other than that he's pretty pedestrian
Gordon at least has a reputation for being a very good defender. Haven't seen enough of him to know whether that is true. But if it is true, it would give the Cs someone else who might be able to credibly guard Giannis, Kawhi, KD, LBJ, etc.

I saw most of the Wiz game last night and apparently Gordon has changed his shooting mechanics (his FTs are markedly changed but his 3P shot less so, which is weird). Not saying he can shoot now but it does show that he's willing to work on it.
 

lovegtm

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Gordon at least has a reputation for being a very good defender. Haven't seen enough of him to know whether that is true. But if it is true, it would give the Cs someone else who might be able to credibly guard Giannis, Kawhi, KD, LBJ, etc.

I saw most of the Wiz game last night and apparently Gordon has changed his shooting mechanics (his FTs are markedly changed but his 3P shot less so, which is weird). Not saying he can shoot now but it does show that he's willing to work on it.
I like Gordon a lot, but this specific team needs shooting shooting and more shooting. I think Gordon would feel similar to Smart, where you’re happy with the D, but constantly living and dying with streakiness, and other teams are willing to gamble off.
 

128

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Wasn't sure which thread to post this on, so I'll try this one:

Anybody else rely on League Pass to follow the C's? I don't know if this problem is restricted to DISH, but I learned today that the C's next three games aren't available on TV because of "technical issues." Supposedly this will not continue into 2021, but I'm a little skeptical.

I started wondering what was up when I went to set my DVR to record tonite's game and didn't see it listed in my guide.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I like Gordon a lot, but this specific team needs shooting shooting and more shooting. I think Gordon would feel similar to Smart, where you’re happy with the D, but constantly living and dying with streakiness, and other teams are willing to gamble off.
The two ways Gordon would help are as proven wing depth (Romeo has about a 20% chance of ever being as good as Gordon is right now) and as a quasi-Draymind small ball 5.

I agree his shooting isn’t great but this team needs better depth. I doubt Orlando is shopping him until things take shape for them this year; but he should be in the radar
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Selling low on Romeo and giving away a pick feels short-sighted this early in the season
I headed to Google to find some updates on Romeo and found the 'People Also Ask' section pretty funny.

(He had a cast off in early December and is targeting late-January - early-Feb for a return, for anyone else who wasn't up to date like me.)

romeo-search.png
 

Cesar Crespo

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Interesting he's been doing all his practices and exercises as normal... just with his left hand and not his right. Maybe in the long run, the injury will be beneficial.

I'm sure that's the case a lot with injuries but improving with your off hand can't hurt.
 

NomarsFool

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Unfortunately, I don't think we should expect too much from Romeo this season. Due to his surgery on his dominant hand, he basically didn't have the opportunity to work on this game this past "off-season". So, he's likely going to be behind where we would have expected him to be for a typical sophomore season.

They guy who really needs to step it up is Grant Williams. He's probably the best hope for a meaningful contribution from the young guys. It's only 2 games, but it hasn't been great so far.
 

TripleOT

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If Orlando wants to trade Aaron Gordon for Romeo or Nesmith and picks, I would do it in a nanosecond. Gordon would have lots of room to get to the rim in a lineup with JT, JB, and Kemba.

He would give the Cs a very appealing small ball lineup at center. I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for Romeo to ever become a real contributor on the Celtics
 

pjheff

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Tatum's prayer was answered, and for that we're all thankful. But that was an extraordinarily low-percentage shot with Giannis defending, and I'd like to think Stevens could draw up something better than that with so much time on the clock.

Better to be lucky than good, but luck is not a strategy.
It was a bad shot at the end of regulation in Game 1 of the ECF against Miami. It was a bad shot against Milwaukee that just so happened to go in off the glass. And it was a bad shot tonight versus Indianapolis.
 

TripleOT

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Brown needs to get more than the 13 shots he took in Indy. After some hot three point shooting in the opener, Jeff Teague is 0-11 the last two games. He did earn 9 FTs against the Pacer

If the Celtics shoot 51/39%, get 9 more FTs, and put up 42 bench points on only 25 shots, they should win.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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They guy who really needs to step it up is Grant Williams. He's probably the best hope for a meaningful contribution from the young guys. It's only 2 games, but it hasn't been great so far.
It would be great if GWill figured out to score versus NBA length but I'm not sure it's going to be this year.

I would put GWill behind TimeLord, Romeo, and Pritchard in terms of guys likely to contribute meaningfully (and Pritchard only because he looks like the bench player who best combines shooting with an ability to play a little bit of D).
 

Imbricus

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I watched the first half of the game last night and was most depressed by Grant Williams. He just has major physical deficits he has to overcome: (1) too short (2) feet too slow (3) plays too close to the ground. I think he's got to develop some reliable offensive moves this year, or he's in danger of sliding out of the rotation.

Separately, I'm really liking Pritchard. He does some dumb rookie stuff, but not as much as you'd expect (and there's a lot pressure on that point guard position). He has a lot of poise and a nice shooting form. He gets the ball, and he seems to be immediately thinking of doing something with it, instead of just dribbling around.
 

128

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FWIW:

“That was on me. I should have put more pressure on the defense," Tatum said. "Obviously that’s a shot I take a lot and I can hit, but I gotta put pressure on the refs and the defense in that situation. It wasn’t the exact play we drew up, but I should have just put more pressure on them. That’s on me in that situation.”
 

lovegtm

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FWIW:

“That was on me. I should have put more pressure on the defense," Tatum said. "Obviously that’s a shot I take a lot and I can hit, but I gotta put pressure on the refs and the defense in that situation. It wasn’t the exact play we drew up, but I should have just put more pressure on them. That’s on me in that situation.”
Tatum has been sort of crappy to start the year, which I guess makes me...optimistic? They also aren't close to where they should be defensively, given personnel. That 3rd quarter was an embarrassment.

I think that in a few months we'll look back on this period as an aberration as they got things together, but it's going to be a bit rough.
 

128

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Tatum has been sort of crappy to start the year, which I guess makes me...optimistic?
Yeah, I feel sometimes like it's an act of heresy to criticize Tatum on this board, but there's been a fair amount of bad mixed in with the many moments of brilliance thus far. I'm hopeful that he'll make the next step and become a legitimate superstar. Max contract or not, he has a lot of ground to make up.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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Just last season JT resembled one of those pitchers that has great stuff but grinds along early in the year with a 4 ERA, then all of a sudden mid-season is putting up months of ERAs around 2 to be among the league leaders in the end. He averaged low 20s PPG with only decent shooting until February when he exploded with a much more efficient 30 PPG month. It seems like his feeling out process early this season is with increased 3-point shooting, but hell if he is close to 4-for-10 average/game from long distance by all means he should jack those up. But the inverse of that is he seems more uncomfortable on his drives and 2-point takes, with increased turnovers and only FOUR FTs so far. If JT can find a way to score more easy buckets to drive his percentages to .400 3-pt / .500 overall, then there is no argument he is not a top 10 player. He's still young so maybe he can still improve his off-ball movement to help in this regard, since the dribble drives towards the hoop have left a lot to be desired. Ideally he needs a mix of drives, post-ups and backdoor cuts to avoid predictability near the hoop;
 

BigSoxFan

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I watched the first half of the game last night and was most depressed by Grant Williams. He just has major physical deficits he has to overcome: (1) too short (2) feet too slow (3) plays too close to the ground. I think he's got to develop some reliable offensive moves this year, or he's in danger of sliding out of the rotation.

Separately, I'm really liking Pritchard. He does some dumb rookie stuff, but not as much as you'd expect (and there's a lot pressure on that point guard position). He has a lot of poise and a nice shooting form. He gets the ball, and he seems to be immediately thinking of doing something with it, instead of just dribbling around.
Meanwhile, the guy picked right after him...
 

Imbricus

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has played 4 minutes in the NBA. Your point?
I think he's talking about the player taken after Grant, Darius Bazley. Not a name we talk about much here, but he had a good game against Charlotte, with 15 points, 2 blocks and a steal (and 10 rebounds).

Edit: to add the 10 rebounds, which is notable.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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It's funny that the refrain for the past couple of years was "Tatum needs to put on some muscle and it's on." and here we are looking at the dude with bigger shoulders and more defined muscle mass and it looks like his ability to get to the basket has regressed. As a total basketball development noob I wonder to myself what exactly the guy can do to improve his ability to get to the hoop. To my eyes, it looks like he's simply easy to defend if he tries to get to the basket because his dribbling motion is loopy and not quick, so once he initiates to the basket he gets swallowed up by a second defender. His inability to get to the rack looks like an Achilles heel that ultimately hard caps his ceiling. I doubt he takes that circus three last night if he had the confidence to get to the basket, but most every second-half foray to the basket last night was a disaster so of course he takes that shot.

It seems like a longshot that he'll develop into a Durant/Harden type who threatens a defense by being able to get to the basket at will or destroy you from the outside.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think he's talking about the player taken after Grant, Darius Bazley. Not a name we talk about much here, but he had a good game against Charlotte, with 15 points, 2 blocks and a steal (and 10 rebounds).

Edit: to add the 10 rebounds, which is notable.
Yup. Bazley. Not really criticizing Danny since he was a project but the early returns on Bazley look good and his ceiling is much higher due to his physical profile and shooting prowess. He was popping in the bubble and looks to have carried that momentum into the 2020-2021 season. I'll be following him closely, mostly out of curiosity. But I think Presti has a good one here.
 

JCizzle

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Wasn't sure which thread to post this on, so I'll try this one:

Anybody else rely on League Pass to follow the C's? I don't know if this problem is restricted to DISH, but I learned today that the C's next three games aren't available on TV because of "technical issues." Supposedly this will not continue into 2021, but I'm a little skeptical.

I started wondering what was up when I went to set my DVR to record tonite's game and didn't see it listed in my guide.
I have subscribed to the internet version of league pass for years and watch it through Roku and similar devices. I've very rarely had issues with it and it's relatively affordable for the single team package considering how many games are in an NBA season
 

Buster Olney the Lonely

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I’ve had league pass for five years now and have never had the issue you described. The only time I have not been able to watch the local Cs broadcast is if the game is on TNT or ESPN or on the local sports network (Hawks games).
 

Strike4

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I wonder how much the personnel changes over the past few years are playing out in what we see during games. First there was Kyrie the Veteran who was supposed to take the team on his shoulders, etc. Then Tatum and Brown made great strides and there was some tension about who was in what role. Exit Kyrie, enter Kemba who is great as a veteran presence but, having never been a star on a playoff team, fit in much better with the "young leadership by committee" era, but there was still the uncertainty about where Hayward fit in. Now Hayward is gone and Kemba is out - is Tatum just showing the growing pains of trying to fill the vacuum? You can see other elements of this on the floor: TT trying to fit in, Teague clearly passing up shots to distribute as a true PG (but he might be better off taking some of them), Jaylen not taking enough shots.

Hopefully things will look better by game 10 or so.
 

128

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I’ve had league pass for five years now and have never had the issue you described. The only time I have not been able to watch the local Cs broadcast is if the game is on TNT or ESPN or on the local sports network (Hawks games).
I've never had issues until this season, and I've subscribed for at least a decade. Hopefully it gets resolved soon.
 

Saints Rest

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I wonder how much the personnel changes over the past few years are playing out in what we see during games. First there was Kyrie the Veteran who was supposed to take the team on his shoulders, etc. Then Tatum and Brown made great strides and there was some tension about who was in what role. Exit Kyrie, enter Kemba who is great as a veteran presence but, having never been a star on a playoff team, fit in much better with the "young leadership by committee" era, but there was still the uncertainty about where Hayward fit in. Now Hayward is gone and Kemba is out - is Tatum just showing the growing pains of trying to fill the vacuum? You can see other elements of this on the floor: TT trying to fit in, Teague clearly passing up shots to distribute as a true PG (but he might be better off taking some of them), Jaylen not taking enough shots.

Hopefully things will look better by game 10 or so.
I think this is pretty bang on. The Jays are the alphas, but they are still super young, so I think there is still some learning curve happening where they are not only the two best players, but also the two most-experienced. Leadership is tough and this is the first time there wasn't another player in the upper echelon of this team who was a vet.
 

lovegtm

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It's funny that the refrain for the past couple of years was "Tatum needs to put on some muscle and it's on." and here we are looking at the dude with bigger shoulders and more defined muscle mass and it looks like his ability to get to the basket has regressed. As a total basketball development noob I wonder to myself what exactly the guy can do to improve his ability to get to the hoop. To my eyes, it looks like he's simply easy to defend if he tries to get to the basket because his dribbling motion is loopy and not quick, so once he initiates to the basket he gets swallowed up by a second defender. His inability to get to the rack looks like an Achilles heel that ultimately hard caps his ceiling. I doubt he takes that circus three last night if he had the confidence to get to the basket, but most every second-half foray to the basket last night was a disaster so of course he takes that shot.

It seems like a longshot that he'll develop into a Durant/Harden type who threatens a defense by being able to get to the basket at will or destroy you from the outside.
Takes about Tatum's ceiling being capped at X have tended to age very poorly, very rapidly.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yup. Bazley. Not really criticizing Danny since he was a project but the early returns on Bazley look good and his ceiling is much higher due to his physical profile and shooting prowess. He was popping in the bubble and looks to have carried that momentum into the 2020-2021 season. I'll be following him closely, mostly out of curiosity. But I think Presti has a good one here.
Bazely shot .348 from 3P last year (141 attempts) and has FT% of .694 in the NBA. I don't know anything about him other than what's on BRef, but you really think he's a better shooting prospect than GWill?
 

BigSoxFan

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Bazely shot .348 from 3P last year (141 attempts) and has FT% of .694 in the NBA. I don't know anything about him other than what's on BRef, but you really think he's a better shooting prospect than GWill?
Yup, I do. Keep in mind that FT% is on a sample size of 62 FTs. And Grant Williams, in his small sample size, is shooting about 25% from 3. I like the look of Bazley's shot and think he's going to be a solid stretch 4 at the NBA level. Good athleticism, decent shooting with room for improvement, and 2 years younger than Grant. Bazley has starter potential and I just don't see that kind upside from Grant, mostly due to his physical limitations.

Believe Bazley was going to go to Syracuse before he did the weird New Balance internship for $1M. He was going to be a major college player and probably would have been a lotto pick had he played for Boeheim. Exactly the type of guy it makes sense to draft when you have multiple 1st's.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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They have given up a fuckton of break-outs this season.

So a couple of observation of the dual big lineup.

(i) I wonder if Brad is going to give up on the TT/DT lineup. While it should be a really good defensive lineup, it has problems on the offensive end (see below) plus it apparently has problems with floor spacing (particularly Theis trying to get from the corner back on defense on a fast break). They have been hammered in the last two 3rd quarters.

(ii) The Cs have kind of marginalized TheIs this year. Having him sit in the corner waiting for the ball doesn't make use of any of his talents. He hit his first two 3Ps and has missed his last ten. Playing the 4 with TT doesn't seem to do him justice; also with RWill deserving additional minutes, there seems to be even less opportunity to provide him with time at the 5. Or maybe TheIs will start shooting better.

On the flip side the Cs have played teams that are relatively big for their first 4 games so maybe DT will get time at the 5 against smaller teams.