Analysis of Celtics Games, '21-'22 Season

Cesar Crespo

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It's crazy that 22-21 is a 10 seed currently. Maybe part of what is wrong with the C's is that there are less tanking teams due to the 2 play in games.

There are 5 teams right now that probably aren't playing for a playoff spot.

And OKC is only 4 games back of the 10 spot. Indiana, Houston, Detroit and Orlando are pretty far out of it.
 

NomarsFool

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Of course AN did. Seems anytime RL or AN have a promising game, they miss the following. Though I'm sure its RL 95% of the time and I'm lumping in AN with him unfairly.
I don't recall AN having injuries. RL for sure, and that was also RW's situation the last couple of seasons - every time there was an opportunity for more playing time, there was an injury.
 

lovegtm

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Of course AN did. Seems anytime RL or AN have a promising game, they miss the following. Though I'm sure its RL 95% of the time and I'm lumping in AN with him unfairly.
Yeah, that's a Romeo thing. AN just goes out and sucks after each promising game; no injury required.
 

NomarsFool

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Yikes, that was ugly. What was Tatum thinking with that intentional foul in the second quarter that gave him 3 fouls? I mean, just let him have the basket! I can't remember for sure, but I think Grant also had an intentional foul that gave him 3 or 4 (again - I can't remember for sure - but I thought I remembered a pretty dumb foul by him). These guys need to have a bit more discipline.

I was also surprised that when Hayward picked up 2 fouls in the first, and he was still in there (he stayed in for a play or two) - the Celtics didn't go right at him. I mean, there's no way he (if he's smart) plays aggressive defense with 2 fouls in the first, and if he does - maybe you knock him out of the whole first half if he picks up 3 fouls.
 

chilidawg

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Yikes, that was ugly. What was Tatum thinking with that intentional foul in the second quarter that gave him 3 fouls? I mean, just let him have the basket! I can't remember for sure, but I think Grant also had an intentional foul that gave him 3 or 4 (again - I can't remember for sure - but I thought I remembered a pretty dumb foul by him). These guys need to have a bit more discipline.

I was also surprised that when Hayward picked up 2 fouls in the first, and he was still in there (he stayed in for a play or two) - the Celtics didn't go right at him. I mean, there's no way he (if he's smart) plays aggressive defense with 2 fouls in the first, and if he does - maybe you knock him out of the whole first half if he picks up 3 fouls.
Alternatively, Tatum fouling out would have meant more minutes for Richardson down the stretch, which would have been a plus for the C's, and Hayward fouling out would have meant more Oubre, not good for the C's.
 

Auger34

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Yikes, that was ugly. What was Tatum thinking with that intentional foul in the second quarter that gave him 3 fouls? I mean, just let him have the basket! I can't remember for sure, but I think Grant also had an intentional foul that gave him 3 or 4 (again - I can't remember for sure - but I thought I remembered a pretty dumb foul by him). These guys need to have a bit more discipline.

I was also surprised that when Hayward picked up 2 fouls in the first, and he was still in there (he stayed in for a play or two) - the Celtics didn't go right at him. I mean, there's no way he (if he's smart) plays aggressive defense with 2 fouls in the first, and if he does - maybe you knock him out of the whole first half if he picks up 3 fouls.
They were in the penalty for the last 8:40 of the game and didn’t attempt a single free throw in that entire time. That’s incredibly hard to do
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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When your two superstars go 2-18 from three, you're going to lose the vast majority of the time, regardless of just about everything else.

Tatum is starting to be genuinely concerning.

He's never been under 45% shooting - this year he's at 41.5%.

He's never been under .373 from three - this year he's at .317 (with his most every 3PA per game, at 8.2)

eFG is now a dreadful .477. He's a well below league average shooter across the board right now.

Plus, his turnover percentage has jumped to 11.2 from a career average of 10.4.

Which results in an ORTG of just 105 (vs. career of 110 so far).

(Of course, JB is also at lowest ever shooting percentage and highest ever turnover percentage, so the combo package is extra bad, but JB's shooting numbers haven't cratered quite as much - eFG of .532 - he's still a slightly above average shooter.)
 

NomarsFool

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Tatum and Brown are both trying to learn to be playmakers. I think it is perfectly natural that the turnovers are going to come up as part of that learning process.

Layered on top of that, the gravity of the other players on the court has likely decreased, even from last season. I know Kemba wasn't KEMBA, but he still had a lot of gravity on the court, when he played. I think there's even more weight on Tatum and Brown to carry the offense this year, vs. last. That is going to lead to poor FG%. We also have, layered on top, the fact that the officiating has changed from last season.
 

tbrown_01923

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Agreed, they are carrying addtional responsibity (and supporting cast isn't as strong as it has been in the past). But the (lack of) gravity of other players is not impacting Tatums wide open 3 percentage. It is something else... Maybe physical, or mechanical, or mental. Ot it could be just normal variance stacked up against him (but this seems like a stretch)
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Tatum and Brown are both trying to learn to be playmakers. I think it is perfectly natural that the turnovers are going to come up as part of that learning process.

Layered on top of that, the gravity of the other players on the court has likely decreased, even from last season. I know Kemba wasn't KEMBA, but he still had a lot of gravity on the court, when he played. I think there's even more weight on Tatum and Brown to carry the offense this year, vs. last. That is going to lead to poor FG%. We also have, layered on top, the fact that the officiating has changed from last season.
I think the lack of gravity around Tatum and Brown is the most likely explanation for their struggles. And as you note, they aren't good enough playmakers to take advantage of the doubles and blitzes they are seeing. Even if they were better playmakers, there just isn't enough talent around them to capitalize.

The front office and coaching staff see what we see plus a whole lot more. I don't know if they can do anything now but Stevens is quoted as looking for more scoring and playmaking. If they can somehow add some combination of a distributor/bucket getter its possible that Tatum and/or Brown's numbers rebound in-season. If the team acquires more talent and the results are the same, there may be longer term issues. But its hard to judge these guys when they are surrounded by mediocre offensive players at best.
 

Cellar-Door

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For all the flaws of Ainge, he wasn't totally wrong about the need to have a PG who can be the man with the ball/running the offense and can knock down 3s. Both Kyrie and Kemba (even broken Kemba) were really good for our overall offensive performance. Replacing those guys with Marcus (no threat from deep, not really running an offense) and Schroder (not a deep threat and more of a slasher/scorer than a consistent offense coordinator) has been terrible.
 

chilidawg

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For all the flaws of Ainge, he wasn't totally wrong about the need to have a PG who can be the man with the ball/running the offense and can knock down 3s. Both Kyrie and Kemba (even broken Kemba) were really good for our overall offensive performance. Replacing those guys with Marcus (no threat from deep, not really running an offense) and Schroder (not a deep threat and more of a slasher/scorer than a consistent offense coordinator) has been terrible.
By the standards of this team Schroder is an absolute lethal 3 point shooter (36.4% now), and I think he's been at least an average playmaker. There's obviously no Ball brother, but I think they're at least league average at this spot. If Schroder is gone then it's certainly a problem.

The problem to me is more the lack of gravity (to stay on trend) at the bigs and the wings behind Tatum and Brown. Richardson has been solid, and TL helps as a rim runner, but the youngsters just aren't impact players. You'll get little teasers now and then, but there's no consistency. Horford and Enes haven't added much either.
 

Cellar-Door

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By the standards of this team Schroder is an absolute lethal 3 point shooter (36.4% now), and I think he's been at least an average playmaker. There's obviously no Ball brother, but I think they're at least league average at this spot. If Schroder is gone then it's certainly a problem.

The problem to me is more the lack of gravity (to stay on trend) at the bigs and the wings behind Tatum and Brown. Richardson has been solid, and TL helps as a rim runner, but the youngsters just aren't impact players. You'll get little teasers now and then, but there's no consistency. Horford and Enes haven't added much either.
Schroder is a career 33 and some change shooter, nobody covers him. The problems for the Celtics aren't just that nobody is hitting 3s, it's that many guys are being left to take 3s whenever they want (Smart, Schroder, Romeo, Nesmith, Al, plus 2 guys in TL and Enes just don't take them), even Richardson gets left alone late in games on a lot of possessions which he luckily has been punishing. The floor is real small for our offense.

As to playmaking, Schroder has had a couple good games recently, but he's still well under 25% for AST%, and part of it isn't even that, it;s that he usually gets assists in a very specific way, which is driving and kicking. Not bad, but it relies on open shooters. He's not a guy I think of as great at running diverse offense, and while he's a solid enough passer, he's not giving you excess value, or seeing/making passes that create opportunities, just hitting the next guy.
 

slamminsammya

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By the standards of this team Schroder is an absolute lethal 3 point shooter (36.4% now), and I think he's been at least an average playmaker. There's obviously no Ball brother, but I think they're at least league average at this spot. If Schroder is gone then it's certainly a problem.

The problem to me is more the lack of gravity (to stay on trend) at the bigs and the wings behind Tatum and Brown. Richardson has been solid, and TL helps as a rim runner, but the youngsters just aren't impact players. You'll get little teasers now and then, but there's no consistency. Horford and Enes haven't added much either.
Cellar door covered this but just want to reiterate the 3 point shooting is as much about gravity as it is actually making the shots. Sure, Schroder has a decent percentage, but the reason he is left wide open on those so much is because no one is scared of Schroder getting an open 3. He isn't warping the defense with those shots and opening up other things for guys.
 

chilidawg

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Cellar door covered this but just want to reiterate the 3 point shooting is as much about gravity as it is actually making the shots. Sure, Schroder has a decent percentage, but the reason he is left wide open on those so much is because no one is scared of Schroder getting an open 3. He isn't warping the defense with those shots and opening up other things for guys.
Well they should be, he's shooting pretty well.
 

Jimbodandy

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For all the flaws of Ainge, he wasn't totally wrong about the need to have a PG who can be the man with the ball/running the offense and can knock down 3s. Both Kyrie and Kemba (even broken Kemba) were really good for our overall offensive performance. Replacing those guys with Marcus (no threat from deep, not really running an offense) and Schroder (not a deep threat and more of a slasher/scorer than a consistent offense coordinator) has been terrible.
Yeah it stood out even more watching Melo running the Charlotte offense. Having a third player with gravity would help a shitload, like when KI and KW were here. But having someone who frequently got other people good looks would transform this team.
 

Cellar-Door

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Which is funny because DS is now shooting 3Ps better than KW did in his last season with BOS.

Just another point about the difference between "shooting" and "gravity".
Though 4 attempts a game at 36.4 isn't anywhere near as dangerous to an opponent as 36% on over 8 attempts a game.
Kemba also took a lot of pullups at a lower conversion rate (34.7) while Schroder is predominately C&S. Schroder is shooting 35% on C&S, Kemba shot 39%, he was deadly if you left him, so nobody ever left him.
 

slamminsammya

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one would think that smart teams are already measuring how closely guys are being defended using the player tracker fata. We just don't have the results.
Advanced on off metrics are design to capture exactly this type of impact that doesn't show up on a box score. They aren't capable of parsing out the contributions from on ball versus off ball behavior though.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Advanced on off metrics are design to capture exactly this type of impact that doesn't show up on a box score. They aren't capable of parsing out the contributions from on ball versus off ball behavior though.
Txs What I meant though is that I hope the Cs are using player tracking data to see the physical distance between players and their defenders. That would get an idea of how much gravity one player has. For instance if a team plays GW 3 feet away but only plays Bridges 2' 9", Bridges would have more gravity.
 

slamminsammya

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Txs What I meant though is that I hope the Cs are using player tracking data to see the physical distance between players and their defenders. That would get an idea of how much gravity one player has. For instance if a team plays GW 3 feet away but only plays Bridges 2' 9", Bridges would have more gravity.
That would be a pretty tricky way to go about measuring it, since there are a lot of confounding factors that can make defenders play closer or further from a guy. Are you on the weak side? Are you setting a screen? Do you usually have the ball or not? Do you tend to sit in the paint? etc. etc. etc.
 

Eddie Jurak

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So, on the one hand, this was another embarassing loss, dropping them under .500 again. After pulling themselves above .500 with a 5-1 strecth of games, they went immediately back to the old form, with, first, a lethargic loss to Charlotte that wasn't as close a game as the score would suggest, and then a game where they pull their 4th quarter late choke act, this time in spectacular fashion. With 7:19 to go, the Celtics led 100-89. They ultimately lost 109-105 - Portland ended the game with a 20-5 run in which the Celtics only scored free throws and went about 5 minutes without scoring at all.

On the other hand, there were a few notable things from this game:
  • Ime rode Tatum really hard, 41 minutes. Too much in an non-OT game, IMO. Other guys were roughly in the acceptable range: Brown 35, Rob and Grant 33, no one else above 30.
  • Tatum was 0 for 6 from three, and his streak of misses is up to 20. Clearly in his head at this point. Halfway through the fourth, it was looking like this was going to be a great Tatum game anyway, but the team didn't score fro the field the rest of the way. Tatum shot 8-19 overall, 8 of 13 from 2, and got to the line a ton, where he shot 11-14 including an intentional miss. 27 points overall. To that, he added 10 rebounds and 7 assists to lead the team. I wondered if he would go for a triple double, but that became impossible when the Celtic failed to score from the floor over the final 7:19.
  • Bad shooting night for Jaylen, 2-7 from three and 5-13 from 2. Did hit 6-6 from the line and add 5 rebounds, 5 assists.
  • Rob had 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals, 3 blocks. Wasn't really involved in the offense (2-4, 5 points) except for one little stretch in the second quarter when he converted a lob and then got an offensive rebound, missed the putback, battled to grab his miss, and tossed up a little 2 foot shot in traffic (which he rarely does) for an and-1.
  • Grant had his best game in a while. 13 points on 4-7 shooting, 3-5 from three, 2-2 from the line. Added 8 rebounds and 3 assists, including a nice lob to Jaylen in transition.
  • Romeo led the team with a +17 in 23 minutes; the only other positives were Pritchard (+5 in 12 minutes), Grant (+5 in 33 minutes), Horford (+5 in 26 minutes), and Tatum (+2 in his 41). On the other side of the ledger, Richardson and Schroder were -12, Rob -11, Jaylen -10, and Freedom was -9 in under 3 minutes.
  • Romeo's +17 was earned. His entry in to the game in Q2 sparked a decisive run (at the time). He shot 5-7, including 2-4 from three, and added a pair of blocks, including a key late transition block that delayed the collpase a bit. 3-3 from the 2, on a couple of drives and a difficult transition finish at the rim. His shots were ones that usually seem to settle on the rim and then roll off, but today they rolled in.
  • Pritchard was in early in Q2, with Freedom, and was part of a group of Celtics that were run off the court in 3 minutes. Later in the game, he got another shot and hit a couple of big threes while the Celtics built up the 4th quarter they went on to blow.
  • Langford's minutes cam at the expense of Richardson, who only got 12 minutes.
One guy I didn't mention because I wanted to break him out separately was Dennis Schroeder. The other day, last time the Celtics won, we saw Dennis at his Celtic best. Today, we saw Dennis at his most out of sync with the team. He did some good things (4 assists and 4 steals in 22 minutes), but he shot poorly from three (4-9 overall, 1-5 from three, 9 points) and the Celtics as a team looked lifeless and uninspired while he as in the game. The best that can be said of him today is that he did not play at all* during the 4th quarter, so none of the collapse could be attributed to him. (*Actually, he played a few seconds in the final minute when Ime started doing offense/defense with him and Romeo).

But his play aside, the usage of Schroder in this game was just weird. He started the game and played the full first quarter, during which the Celtics were outscored by 5. He did not play at all in the second quarter. He was not in foul trouble (1 foul in the first Q), so I figured he might of been hurt. But he started the third quarter and played the first 10 minutes, during which time the Celtics managed to turn a 4 point lead into a 4 point deficit. Then he left the game, not to be seen again until offense/defense substitutions with Romeo in the final 30 seconds. Really weird.

The second quarter was interesting. The quarter began with the Celtics down by 5 and trying out a lineup with Pritchard, Freedom, Richardson, Tatum, and Grant. This lineup gave up a 8-0 run in 1:30 and Rob came back. With about 9 minutes to go, and the Celtics trailing by 12 (40-28), Ime goes to a no-PG look, bringing in Jaylen and Romeo for Richardson and Pritchard. (Rob, Tatum, and Grant were the others on the floor). This group played most of the rest of the quarter (Al came in for Rob during the final minutes or two) and they dominated. Romeo provided immediate energy, and the Celtics outscored the Blazers 30-14 over the final 9 minutes of the quarter, to turn a 12-point deficit into a 4 point lead.

Down by 4 late in the third, Ime tried something similar, but this time had Pritchard in the game. (Though Pritchard was played more like a shooting guard, wasn't handling the ball a ton). With 2:15 to go, down by 4, Ime went Pritchard-Romeo-Tatum-Grant-Rob, then Al came in for Rob with a minute left. This group ended the quarter on a 5-2 run and eventually took the lead, ran it up to 11 with 7:19 to go, and was still on the floor for the early part of the collpase.

With 7:19 to go, the Celtics were on a 23-8 run and up by 11, and that is where the wheels fell off. At the 5 minute mark, the Celtics have gone 2:19 without scoring, and after a Portland three, Jaylen comes in for Pritchard with the Celtics protecting an 8 point lead. Jaylen-Jayson-Romeo-Grant-Al. Same no-PG look that worked in Q2. Portland gets another basket, and Rob comes in for Al with a 6 point lead and 4 minutes to go. Celtics give up 6 unanswered points to tie the game before Brown is fouled with under a minute left and hits his free throws. Brown does something stupid on the defensive end (leaves Covington in the corner to help on a McCollum drive that appears well-defended without Jaylen's help) and Covington sticks a corner 3 to give Portland the lead. Tatum is fouled and hits both to put Celtics ahead with 26 seconds left. A Nurkic putback with 13 seconds left gives Portland a lead they would not surrender.

The weird usage of Schroder and the success and then failre of the no-PG look are a couple of interesting take homes from this game.

I also wonder how much Tatum was just gassed from playing 41 minutes. On one of Tatum's missed late threes he had a good opportunity to drive but passed it up.

Scal was calling at the end for the Celtics to run pick and rolls to get Nurkic out of the paint ("GET NURKIC IN THE ACTION!!!") he screamed over and over again as the Celtics went away from this almost completely after having success with it earlier.

The Ime minutes thing is a real problem, and today's game shows that injuries aren't fully the issue.

Of course, Smart was out and it would be fair to point to that as a reason why he's riding other starters harder. On top of that, Nesmith made a major positive impact in the last win, but he too was out. Romeo played today and for a while had a similar positive impact on today's game. But Romeo getting more minutes meant that Josh Richardson - who has generally been a good player of the bench for the C's - got less while Tatum still got 41 and passed up drives at the end of a collapse. The strong odds are that when Smart and Nesmith are back, Tatum will still play in the high 30s while Richardson, Nesmith, Langford, and Pritchard share about 35 minutes between them, with or two of the latter three usually getting a DNP.

What could be a team strength (bench wings) is not being exploited at all because Ime is too heavily focused on riding Tatum and Brown. Even when it means losing a game because Tatum - arguably driving more often and better than at any time in his career - won't drive at the end.
 

TheRooster

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One thing to add: Brown's shot selection during the q4 collapse was atrocious. Multiple forced, low percentage shots. With GW and Romeo playing confidently and competently, JB had no excuse.
 

HomeRunBaker

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One thing to add: Brown's shot selection during the q4 collapse was atrocious. Multiple forced, low percentage shots. With GW and Romeo playing confidently and competently, JB had no excuse.
This is what a 4Q offense looks like without anyone on the floor to break down their man off the dribble or at least have that threat on the floor. Playing no-PG during the course of a mid-January snooze fest is a far different phenomenon than being able to get away with it in the final 6 min when the game becomes halfcourt and defensive intensity picks up. Of course you’d expect an NBA Head Coach to understand this. Your also expect your coach to not use a size excuse when the opponent is playing smaller than most but that’s another story altogether.

I will defend one common criticism here about Ime. Playing more Nesmith and other bench flotsam more minutes at the expense of a guy in his young 20’s who was touted as a Top-10 player is not a reason for Tatum’s poor 4Q, 1Q and overall poor perimeter shooting and certainly not a reason we are underachieving. It is common for star players to be in or around the 40-min mark in non-B2B games. This is a cop-out excuse for Tatum’s at times awful shooting and not valid at all imo.
 

bigq

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I wasn't following the game very closely last night. I am curious why Schröder didn't play in the 4th. In a game in which the Celtics completely collapsed in the final 7+ minutes of the final quarter and couldn't convert a basket it seems odd for one of the team's best at creating his own shot not to see the floor.

HRB speaks to it a bit.

This is what a 4Q offense looks like without anyone on the floor to break down their man off the dribble or at least have that threat on the floor.
If coaching malpractice is a thing, not playing Schröder in the 4th last night seems to qualify.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I wasn't following the game very closely last night. I am curious why Schröder didn't play in the 4th. In a game in which the Celtics completely collapsed in the final 7+ minutes of the final quarter and couldn't convert a basket it seems odd for one of the team's best at creating his own shot not to see the floor.

HRB speaks to it a bit.



If coaching malpractice is a thing, not playing Schröder in the 4th last night seems to qualify.
Because they built the lead without Schroder and were struggling mightily with DS on the court. And technically, DS played in the 4th. He was subbed in and out with Romeo a few times with like a minute left.

Even so, 7+ minutes without a FG is a long time. Maybe after 2-3 minutes, put DS back in there?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Because they built the lead without Schroder and were struggling mightily with DS on the court. And technically, DS played in the 4th. He was subbed in and out with Romeo a few times with like a minute left.

Even so, 7+ minutes without a FG is a long time. Maybe after 2-3 minutes, put DS back in there?
Schroder came in at :28 after we had lost the lead bc nobody could create their own offense. The 4Q of a close NBA game doesn’t resemble the first 42 min or so……getting away with playing without a guard down the stretch of a tight game is, like was said above, coaching malpractice.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Schroder came in at :28 after we had lost the lead bc nobody could create their own offense. The 4Q of a close NBA game doesn’t resemble the first 42 min or so……getting away with playing without a guard down the stretch of a tight game is, like was said above, coaching malpractice.
The problem with this argument is that the Celtics have been bad at finishing games all season, with or without Schroder. So one could argue that they need a guard who isn't currently on the team, but Deniis specifically has been tried and failed. This game was different in degree from what we have seen before but not different in kind.

Also, with the lineup they had, there are things the Celtics could have done but didn't do, like running pick and roll with Tatum as the ballhandler, which they had done earlier to great effect.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The problem with this argument is that the Celtics have been bad at finishing games all season, with or without Schroder. So one could argue that they need a guard who isn't currently on the team, but Deniis specifically has been tried and failed. This game was different in degree from what we have seen before but not different in kind.

Also, with the lineup they had, there are things the Celtics could have done but didn't do, like running pick and roll with Tatum as the ballhandler, which they had done earlier to great effect.
There is “been bad at finishing games all season” and then there was the Blazer game. Schroder has been a key piece in many of our close wins but it isn’t even about that. Ime would rarely, if ever, leave Smart out there as the lone guard when Schroder was available. Now, he willingly chooses no guard and then tries to justify his decision by saying they had too much size on the floor……..with CJ, Simons, Little and Covington?
 

benhogan

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I didn't see the game, but I REFUSE to believe Jaylen Brown overhelped! That never happens...
Jaylen is a bad help (& zone) defender and gets confused by defensive schemes all the time. Smart is usually there to direct/bark at him.

There was no explanation for what he did, it's not like CJ was going to take the ball to the rim vs. one of the most agile shot blockers in the NBA. Maybe CJ takes a step back 3 vs Rob but Jaylen left Covington wide open for one of the most efficient shots in the NBA, to play behind Rob to protect the rim? For a high IQ individual, he's been one of the dumbest defenders on this team for years.
 

benhogan

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There is “been bad at finishing games all season” and then there was the Blazer game. Schroder has been a key piece in many of our close wins but it isn’t even about that. Ime would rarely, if ever, leave Smart out there as the lone guard when Schroder was available. Now, he willingly chooses no guard and then tries to justify his decision by saying they had too much size on the floor……..with CJ, Simons, Little and Covington?
I don't get all the Schroder hate. He's our 3rd best scorer and probably our best ballhandler. A rested DS could easily breakdown Simons or CJ

Not playing Schroder or JRich is malpractice no matter what +/- showed you over 4-5 minutes stretches (heaven help the Celtics if that is going into IME decisions)

The HC needs to go to a 9-10 man rotation and mix/match the right players. IME has failed miserably in that endeavor from Game 1 this season when he decided to go with Horford/TL. The worst part is IME is not learning and adjusting.

for example, IME was completely unaware of matchups earlier in the game when he forced Freedom minutes.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I don't get all the Schroder hate. He's our 3rd best scorer and probably our best ballhandler. A rested DS could easily breakdown Simons or CJ
The “Schroder hate” is because… according to you, he could “easily break down Skmkns or DJ,” but he played the whole first quarter and most of the third and was a non factor. People keep claiming that he can positively impact winning, and that clashes with what he so often actually does on the court.

Edit: “All we need to win this game is for Schroder to do in the 4th what he did not do in the first and third quarters of the same game” is just not ever going to be a convincing argument.

If this team needs a PG, it needs one who is closer to the mold of a Rondo whose primary focus is on creating for teammates, than the mold of a Kyrie/Kemba/Schroder/IT whose focus is more on looking out for #1. I used to think the game had passed the Rondo-style by, but watching the Celtics of the past 2-3 years has led me to reconsider.
 
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benhogan

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The “Schroder hate” is because… according to you, he could “easily break down Skmkns or DJ,” but he played the whole first quarter and most of the third and was a non factor. People keep claiming that he can positively impact winning, and that clashes with what he so often actually does on the court.
He is averaging 16ppg, shooting 36% from 3, 2-1 asst - to and has a long history of playing with playoff-bound teams as the 3rd scorer. He's a very good bench piece/backup PG, whatever you want to label him...He is far from being the problem with this team

He is part of the 9-10 man rotation, he needs to play
 

Jimbodandy

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He needs to play, but the "hate" comes from the fact that the defense routinely falls apart when he enters the game. Not always...but he's often instant offense...for either or both teams.
 

benhogan

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He needs to play, but the "hate" comes from the fact that the defense routinely falls apart when he enters the game. Not always...but he's often instant offense...for either or both teams.
That's fair. I can't imagine having DS switch on to Centers is a great idea.

It's almost like the HC has to adjust to suit the roster
 

Eddie Jurak

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He is averaging 16ppg, shooting 36% from 3, 2-1 asst - to and has a long history of playing with playoff-bound teams as the 3rd scorer. He's a very good bench piece/backup PG, whatever you want to label him...He is far from being the problem with this team

He is part of the 9-10 man rotation, he needs to play
He's erratic, and his on/off split (+1.0) suggests a surprising lack of impact for someone who could be called the only real ballhandler on the team.
 

benhogan

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He's erratic, and his on/off split (+1.0) suggests a surprising lack of impact for someone who could be called the only real ballhandler on the team.
he has single-handedly won 2-3 games for the Celtics this season with his ability to score/breakdown defenses

what is the expectation level for a back-up PG? He can play
 

bigq

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The “Schroder hate” is because… according to you, he could “easily break down Skmkns or DJ,” but he played the whole first quarter and most of the third and was a non factor. People keep claiming that he can positively impact winning, and that clashes with what he so often actually does on the court.

Edit: “All we need to win this game is for Schroder to do in the 4th what he did not do in the first and third quarters of the same game” is just not ever going to be a convincing argument.
I don't know. The same argument applies to JB and JT. If either one of them could have hit a 3 the outcome of the game may have been different. To me you play your best players in crunch time to give you the best chance of winning the game. For all of his warts Schröder is one of the Celtics best players. Abandoning him down the stretch seemed like the wrong decision.
 

Eddie Jurak

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he has single-handedly won 2-3 games for the Celtics this season with his ability to score/breakdown defenses

what is the expectation level for a back-up PG? He can play
I think he's fine as a backup but the unit should be tailored towards what he does well. Dennis, Al, Grant, someone else who can shoot and defend. As a starter, he is both not good enough and not a good fit for the team, because creating opportunities for Tatum and Brown is either not something he can do consistently or is not something he wants to do consistently.
 

benhogan

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I think he's fine as a backup but the unit should be tailored towards what he does well. Dennis, Al, Grant, someone else who can shoot and defend. As a starter, he is both not good enough and not a good fit for the team, because creating opportunities for Tatum and Brown is either not something he can do consistently or is not something he wants to do consistently.
1. 100% agree, a rotation/scheme tailored to what he does well and hide what he doesn't do well (post defense)- that's on the HC
2. DS has broken down the defense numerous times and kicked out to the JAYs, Al or Marcus- all have been below their career 3pt%
3. Yes we need a Prime Rondo distributor. That player is an All-Star or cusp All-Star. Someone like Lonzo would be helpful.
 

Eddie Jurak

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2. DS has broken down the defense numerous times and kicked out to the JAYs, Al or Marcus- all have been below their career 3pt%
That's not enough. Brown and Tatum can (or could until this year) spot up, but they need to be doing more, need a PG who will consistently do more than just drive and kick out to them.
 

Jimbodandy

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That's not enough. Brown and Tatum can (or could until this year) spot up, but they need to be doing more, need a PG who will consistently do more than just drive and kick out to them.
They can and do more than that. But defenses can collapse the middle when 2 guys have gravity and creation, while the other 3 are no threat at all.

DS (or Kemba, Kyrie, and IT4) can be a third guy who causes the defense to break down. Even if that guy isn't really a playmaker for others--like basically all of the smurf guards we've had--it's still valuable. Go ahead and collapse on Tatum, he can swing it left or right and either guy can crash the rim with the ball. It helps.

Ideally that third guy can really create good looks for others. But even if he's not a good passer it's still a huge help.

I'm bearish on DS because of his shit defense, but you can’t deny that he creates advantages with the ball.