Anthony Davis: No Loyalty

RedOctober3829

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Really? For one year of AD? When you say whatever it takes, does that mean you'd move Tatum and Brown?

Where's that leave you in 2021, when AD heads off to LA? Kyrie ain't signing no long term deal in July, if AD isn't committed long term. Maybe Kyrie gives us 2 years, so he can make a run with AD for a year, but I think that's best case scenario.

I truly believe if we trade for AD, and he says he's not signing a contract, Kyrie is either going to bolt, or he's signing a 1 and done, or maybe 2 year deal.

So you're going to give up Tatum and/or Brown (plus whatever else we toss in) for a year of AD, maybe Kyrie, Horford, Gordon, Smart? And then in 2020, we've got a 35 year old Horford, no AD, maybe no Kyrie, no Tatum and/or no Brown. It's basically Smart/Gordon/TimeLord.

We could basically go from a team that was one game from the NBA finals in 2017, then added GH and Kyrie in 2018, and by 2021, we're a lottery team again?

That's what scares me about this whole AD situation. I don't want anything to do with him if he's not signing long term and/or we don't already have a commitment from Kyrie, but the timing is the problem. We can't re-sign Kyrie until July 1st, but the NBA draft is June 20th, so any real trades involving AD, etc. will have already happened. If at that moment, Kyrie is still waffling, uggh....

Danny has to be so careful here or he could undo everything he built in about a 3 week period. I almost want AD to get traded before the deadline now, so we don't have to worry about this come summer. Let this group of guys focus on this season, go and make a deep run in the playoffs and convince Kyrie that the decision he made in October was the right one, and he commits to sticking around.
I don't think Danny would do any deal for AD without Kyrie committing long-term and I think knowing AD is coming I don't think Kyrie would want to leave. But in your scenario that has AD leaving, I would include one of Tatum or Brown(probably will take Tatum), Hayward, filler, and 2 1sts. I'd make a run for a year then yes it would get worse. But, you'd have Hayward's contract off the books and possibly Horford's too then AD's salary is off the books after the year. That would be a ton of cap space in which to chase the next stars that are out there.

If you don't trade for AD and Kyrie walks, are you still even a serious contender or just a middle seed in the East going nowhere? Horford is going to opt out and leave in free agency to chase a ring and Morris is gone too. Rozier would probably get an offer sheet Danny wouldn't match. That leaves the Celtics with a core of Tatum/Brown/Smart/Hayward. Not bad, but it might be in the dead zone of too good to be in the lottery and not good enough to win a championship. That is exactly not the place you want to be.

I just think Danny and the rest of the organization can sell AD on Boston being the best place long-term for him. All of this Kyrie stuff is noise and he'll be back.
 

mcpickl

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I personally think the league values the Ball-Ingram-Kuzma-Hart group about as highly as this board does, which is not highly at all. And that the Pelicans especially are not interested. But if there are teams around the league that actually like one or several of these players, won't we know by the deadline? That is: aren't the Lakers probably trying to flip their assets for assets the Pelicans actually want? If Ingram and Ball, and to a lesser extent Kuzma, still have big fans in other front offices, now is the time for Magic to take advantage of that. If they don't, I think it suggests that these guys are indeed seen as middling young players who will soon be overpaid. Though I could see Josh Hart as a guy destined for a bargain deal who becomes Danny Green.
The problem with these bulk trade offers is, what are the odds a team likes all four of your guys?

Maybe they like one, think one is ok, and have no interest in the other two. While the Lakers may think it's a strong offer of their four best prospects, the Pelicans might think they're getting one and a half guys back.

The Pelicans, and anyone trading a star, should just be hunting for the one best asset they love, then build a deal around it. Taking back a bulk package if they don't absolutely love at least one guy, and probably two, is a disaster.
 

lovegtm

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If you don't trade for AD and Kyrie walks, are you still even a serious contender or just a middle seed in the East going nowhere? Horford is going to opt out and leave in free agency to chase a ring and Morris is gone too. Rozier would probably get an offer sheet Danny wouldn't match. That leaves the Celtics with a core of Tatum/Brown/Smart/Hayward. Not bad, but it might be in the dead zone of too good to be in the lottery and not good enough to win a championship. That is exactly not the place you want to be.
If Kyrie walks, Danny would likely match Rozier up to $20M. Tatum/Brown/Rozier/Smart/Hayward is a really good core, IF Tatum and Brown develop. You also still have the Memphis pick, and the Celtics have drafted well in the high lottery.

Tatum's entire value as a trade chip lies in the promise he has as an (almost) 21 year-old with massive upside. Letting another team try to realize that upside is great, but there are lots of examples of teams holding onto the young guy themselves and reaping the benefit.

AD for Tatum+, with Kyrie re-signing, is obviously the preferred scenario. But Ainge's best skill is mapping out multiple ways to win while maintaining optionality, and part of that is being able to roll with your Plan B if Plan A is unavailable or cost-prohibitive.
 

lovegtm

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The problem with these bulk trade offers is, what are the odds a team likes all four of your guys?

Maybe they like one, think one is ok, and have no interest in the other two. While the Lakers may think it's a strong offer of their four best prospects, the Pelicans might think they're getting one and a half guys back.

The Pelicans, and anyone trading a star, should just be hunting for the one best asset they love, then build a deal around it. Taking back a bulk package if they don't absolutely love at least one guy, and probably two, is a disaster.
Strongly agree. And, if the Pelicans hold AD through the deadline, that tells us that Demps loves Jayson Tatum.
 

lexrageorge

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I have to believe that Ainge will have a good idea of Kyrie's intentions by the time the draft rolls around. While nothing is guaranteed, if Kyrie is saying that he is going to test the free agent market to the fullest extent and give every team an equal shot, Ainge will be very careful about what he deals for AD. If Kyrie instead says he will stay if the C's get AD, then Ainge will be ready to deal.

I also think Ainge will also have some ideas of where Davis's head is at with regards to staying or leaving. If AD insists he will leave for LA or some other warm weather locale, then the price Ainge will be willing to pay will drop a lot. I also have to believe Kyrie and AD will have had some idea of each others' intentions.

Bottom line: I don't see Ainge giving up Tatum + Brown for a one year Davis rental on a team lacking Kyrie. GM's have connections, and Ainge has been around long enough to have good connections to avoid this possibility.
 

Gunfighter 09

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Mark Jackson on TV very adamant that Pelicans should trade Davis before the deadline.....

Oh course, Jackson is a Klutch client.
And Jackson is allegedly who LeBron wants to coach the Lakers once he gets Walton fired.

Can you put a link for this in the Lakers thread?

I thought the Jason Kidd rumors were bad....
 

benhogan

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If Kyrie walks, Danny would likely match Rozier up to $20M. Tatum/Brown/Rozier/Smart/Hayward is a really good core, IF Tatum and Brown develop. You also still have the Memphis pick, and the Celtics have drafted well in the high lottery.

Tatum's entire value as a trade chip lies in the promise he has as an (almost) 21 year-old with massive upside. Letting another team try to realize that upside is great, but there are lots of examples of teams holding onto the young guy themselves and reaping the benefit.

AD for Tatum+, with Kyrie re-signing, is obviously the preferred scenario. But Ainge's best skill is mapping out multiple ways to win while maintaining optionality, and part of that is being able to roll with your Plan B if Plan A is unavailable or cost-prohibitive.
$20MM per for Rozier?
I can't imagine Terry will get offered much more than Smart got (and I like Marcus better).

Won't this be a similar situation as Smart's last season where there were so few teams with room after going big game hunting and taking care of their own players?
 

Cellar-Door

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Can you put a link for this in the Lakers thread?

I thought the Jason Kidd rumors were bad....
Not sure if there are any real stories, just some basketball writers on twitter, most notably Anthony Irwin who has a decent handle on Lakers stuff and Chris Sheridan
 

Deathofthebambino

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I don't think Danny would do any deal for AD without Kyrie committing long-term and I think knowing AD is coming I don't think Kyrie would want to leave. But in your scenario that has AD leaving, I would include one of Tatum or Brown(probably will take Tatum), Hayward, filler, and 2 1sts. I'd make a run for a year then yes it would get worse. But, you'd have Hayward's contract off the books and possibly Horford's too then AD's salary is off the books after the year. That would be a ton of cap space in which to chase the next stars that are out there.
You think the Pelicans are taking Gordon Hayward's contract from us? Why would they do that? If Gordon hasn't improved by then, and they were willing to take him, I could be talked into it, because that would be a huge benefit for the C's.

Unfortunately, I don't think Gordon Hayward is going anywhere any time soon. We just have to hope he gets back to close to what he was.

My point is if AD isn't committing long term, there is a very good chance neither is Kyrie (why would Kyrie want to stick around after AD is gone, when you've given up so much to get AD in the first place?). Kyrie isn't going to want to sign a 4 5 year deal, when year 2 puts him into a lineup with himself, Gordon/Brown/Smart. Then he leaves, and why would any star want to come here after AD and Kyrie just bolted? The only hope the C's would have at that point is rebuilding through the draft, and their only hope there is start tanking for multiple years.

I just don't think the C's can make a strong move for Davis without a long term commitment from him. Like I said, if you want to give up Tatum, maybe I could get on board with that, but it would only be Tatum. I'm not giving them the 2 1st rounders on top of it for a one year rental, and I don't think Pels want Gordon Hayward.
 

the moops

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There is no goddamn way Ainge is matching 20 million for Rozier if it comes to that. If Kyrie leaves and Rozier gets a ridiculous offer he rolls with Smart and some MLE veteran and Stevens tweaks the offense to have Horford and Hayward initiate more offense.
 

Van Everyman

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Really? For one year of AD? When you say whatever it takes, does that mean you'd move Tatum and Brown?

Where's that leave you in 2021, when AD heads off to LA? Kyrie ain't signing no long term deal in July, if AD isn't committed long term. Maybe Kyrie gives us 2 years, so he can make a run with AD for a year, but I think that's best case scenario.

I truly believe if we trade for AD, and he says he's not signing a contract, Kyrie is either going to bolt, or he's signing a 1 and done, or maybe 2 year deal.

So you're going to give up Tatum and/or Brown (plus whatever else we toss in) for a year of AD, maybe Kyrie, Horford, Gordon, Smart? And then in 2020, we've got a 35 year old Horford, no AD, maybe no Kyrie, no Tatum and/or no Brown. It's basically Smart/Gordon/TimeLord.

We could basically go from a team that was one game from the NBA finals in 2017, then added GH and Kyrie in 2018, and by 2021, we're a lottery team again?

That's what scares me about this whole AD situation. I don't want anything to do with him if he's not signing long term and/or we don't already have a commitment from Kyrie, but the timing is the problem. We can't re-sign Kyrie until July 1st, but the NBA draft is June 20th, so any real trades involving AD, etc. will have already happened. If at that moment, Kyrie is still waffling, uggh....

Danny has to be so careful here or he could undo everything he built in about a 3 week period. I almost want AD to get traded before the deadline now, so we don't have to worry about this come summer. Let this group of guys focus on this season, go and make a deep run in the playoffs and convince Kyrie that the decision he made in October was the right one, and he commits to sticking around.
All this and then some. Also, what if we trade for AD and he Kawhi’s with some phantom injury to preserve his value until he hits FA?

Missing out on AD feels like it would be one of those “We almost traded for Arod” moments where the best trade was the trade that never happened and the team you had went out and blew your mind.

This team has a lot of talent and could win.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Not sure if there are any real stories, just some basketball writers on twitter, most notably Anthony Irwin who has a decent handle on Lakers stuff and Chris Sheridan
Most all of Sheridan's stuff is geared toward gambling or his shameless promotion of the BetDSI offshore book. I'd bet that if he mentioned Jackson going to LA as LeBron's coach there were odds tied to it along with a link and code for the sport book.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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That leaves the Celtics with a core of Tatum/Brown/Smart/Hayward. Not bad, but it might be in the dead zone of too good to be in the lottery and not good enough to win a championship. That is exactly not the place you want to be.
Not that I disagree with you but shouldn't Demps be salivating if he turned AD into this core? The Cs have enough assets that NO could be better after making the trade.

AD+Holiday for JB, JT, Smart, GH, and TL plus picks works according to trade machine.
 

Royal Reader

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And the BOS team becomes Kyrie, Jrue, ???, Horford, AD, with no bench? I love AD and I think Holiday is a fine (very good) player, but that team is likely worse than the current team and has absolutely no depth.
No thanks
??? = Marcus Morris, presumably. That's actually a pretty good team for the postseason when rotations shorten. I'd worry that the lack of a bench would make it very hard to get guys enough rest, though.
 

bosockboy

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And the BOS team becomes Kyrie, Jrue, ???, Horford, AD, with no bench? I love AD and I think Holiday is a fine (very good) player, but that team is likely worse than the current team and has absolutely no depth.
No thanks
Well it can’t happen until July so you’d fill out the bench over the summer. This would be for next year.
 

benhogan

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And the BOS team becomes Kyrie, Jrue, ???, Horford, AD, with no bench? I love AD and I think Holiday is a fine (very good) player, but that team is likely worse than the current team and has absolutely no depth.
No thanks
Rose Rule so not happening now. Just would need to add a defense-first wing with all that offensive firepower.

As you know Semi, Yabu, Dozier would be left this summer.

Danny/Brad are very skilled at finding low-cost bench/role players. The league has become very barbelled and trust we could easily fill out the bench
 
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the moops

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Yes, I wasn't arguing about the team now. Point is still the same. Morris would be a good fit but he is getting a healthy deal elsewhere this offseason
 

Jimbodandy

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Not that I disagree with you but shouldn't Demps be salivating if he turned AD into this core? The Cs have enough assets that NO could be better after making the trade.

AD+Holiday for JB, JT, Smart, GH, and TL plus picks works according to trade machine.
Do we have to include our firstborn sons and a kidney also?

That's just way too much.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Well it can’t happen until July so you’d fill out the bench over the summer. This would be for next year.
And next year only, if AD isn't committed long term.

I can't believe people are willing to literally become a lottery team again in 2 years, for one shot at the title next year. It's not like any of these moves guarantee a championship, and if AD pulls a Kawhi mid-season, you're totally, 100% fucked for next year and for many years after.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Do we have to include our firstborn sons and a kidney also?

That's just way too much.
Wasn't trying to make the point that DA would agree to this deal but simply to say that Demps could be considering his upside being a scenario where he could get rid of AD and make NO better - all because of the number and amount of assets that the Cs have.

The problem for Demps is that assuming he waits until July 1, he has a lot less leverage to get that package. Or anything close to that.

Funny that the Cs and the Lakers play on 2.7. I guess we know what 90% of the broadcast will be about, no matter what happens.
 

Eddie Jurak

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One move to watch is whether the Celtics try to add a 2-year MLE player as salary ballast.

Otherwise it will be hard (not impossible, but preety much requring 2 of Smart, Tatum, Brown plus more players) to make salaries work on a Davis deal.
 

lovegtm

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One move to watch is whether the Celtics try to add a 2-year MLE player as salary ballast.

Otherwise it will be hard (not impossible, but preety much requring 2 of Smart, Tatum, Brown plus more players) to make salaries work on a Davis deal.
S&T Rozier is also an option.

Edit: or Morris, if the Pels want to be competitive, which they well might after this year's tank.
 

nighthob

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Irving should give an FU to Klutch and call up the Durantula and work out a deal like the CP3 to Houston deal a few years back.
 

TripleOT

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Ainge isn't trading Tatum for AD unless he gets assurances that AD and Kyrie sign long term. He might do it with Brown, Rozier, and some picks.
 

CreedBratton

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Beyond the Lakers and Knicks, the Pelicans have been made aware of "a handful" of teams that Anthony Davis would be willing to sign long-term with upon a trade, league sources tell ESPN. Boston isn't included on that list.

From Woj
 

cheech13

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WOJ: Beyond the Lakers and Knicks, the Pelicans have been made aware of "a handful" of teams that Anthony Davis would be willing to sign long-term with upon a trade, league sources tell ESPN. Boston isn't included on that list.

Who else is on that list? Zach Lowe mentioned Miami as a possibility in his podcast last week. Maybe the Clippers if he that's set on the LA market?
 

Ed Hillel

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The Pelicans don’t give a shit about any of that, all they care about is getting the best offer they can. If Danny says he’s undeterred, this letter can be used as toilet paper.
 

BigSoxFan

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My guess is the list is teams that AD's camp knows won't/can't make an offer for AD. Like, it's Lakers, Hawks, Grizzlies, and Cavs or something random like that.
 

OnWisc

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WOJ: Beyond the Lakers and Knicks, the Pelicans have been made aware of "a handful" of teams that Anthony Davis would be willing to sign long-term with upon a trade, league sources tell ESPN. Boston isn't included on that list.

Who else is on that list? Zach Lowe mentioned Miami as a possibility in his podcast last week. Maybe the Clippers if he that's set on the LA market?
No doubt it's a list of teams unable to put together a package of assets that can even approach what little the Lakers have to offer.
 

the moops

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There certainly is a lot of chatter regarding his unwillingness to join BOS. It may all be bullshit, but it definitely has to give Ainge and Co. some pause.
 

benhogan

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WOJ: Beyond the Lakers and Knicks, the Pelicans have been made aware of "a handful" of teams that Anthony Davis would be willing to sign long-term with upon a trade, league sources tell ESPN. Boston isn't included on that list.

Who else is on that list? Zach Lowe mentioned Miami as a possibility in his podcast last week. Maybe the Clippers if he that's set on the LA market?
Sign with the Knicks? This is the Lakers or Klutch (probably both) creating Kyrie is going to the NYK to join AD paranoia. Real cute. They are officially the Tokyo Roses' of the sports world

When/if Kyrie comes out and says he's not interested in being part of a rebuilding effort in New York all these Knick whispers will go away. He must be getting tired of being used by some to push their agenda.
 

CreedBratton

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Bucks are on AD list per Woj. That would be scary. If celts don’t get him, anywhere but the Lakers!
 

cheech13

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WOJ: The Milwaukee Bucks are one of the teams on Davis' new extended list, league sources tell ESPN. Milwaukee hasn't inquired about a Davis trade, sources say, and its roster composition does make the pathway to a trade extremely difficult.

A follow-up tweet says the Pelicans rejected a deal from the Knicks built around Kristaps Porzingis.

It's really, really hard to construct a deal with the Bucks. Something like Brogdon/Maker/Middleton/Bledsoe for AD/Hill works in the trade machine, but I don't think that's enough for New Orleans, especially when Milwaukie doesn't have picks to thrown in.
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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There certainly is a lot of chatter regarding his unwillingness to join BOS. It may all be bullshit, but it definitely has to give Ainge and Co. some pause.
Yes, though the chatter is, no doubt, being amplified by the Klutch News Network.

It wont surprise if Windhorst puts something out in the next day or two about how Davis will only sign in a place that offers him investing/career opportunities in entertainment. Or that he will only play in a place that has warm weather or has In N Out Burger.

Davis and his camp want him to go to the Lakers. Ainge presumably knows this and will bid accordingly if he gets the chance.
 

cheech13

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Woj has never been tight with Lebron/Klutch. This seems like a leak to benefit the Pelicans, not the Lakers, as they want to drum up more interest before the trade deadline.
 

amfox1

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Adrian Wojnarowski‏ @wojespn 44s44 seconds ago
The Lakers have offered a new package to New Orleans that includes multiple young players, multiple draft picks and Pelicans salary cap relief for Anthony Davis, league sources tell ESPN. The offer appears to move closer to the objectives that the Pelicans are pursuing in a deal.

Adrian Wojnarowski‏ @wojespn 4s4 seconds ago
Lakers president Magic Johnson and Pelicans GM Dell Demps have had multiple conversations today, league sources tell ESPN. There's no sense how much progress sides have made progress toward a possible trade, but the Lakers have absolutely gotten more serious in the discussions.
 

RedOctober3829

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The Lakers have offered a new package to New Orleans that includes multiple young players, multiple draft picks and Pelicans salary cap relief for Anthony Davis, league sources tell ESPN. The offer appears to move closer to the objectives that the Pelicans are pursuing in a deal.
 

Big John

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The Clips are also on AD's list. Now that would be interesting. Harris, SGA and another prospect or two (plus a couple of first rounders) arguably matches a Lakers offer, but maybe I'm higher on SGA than others.
 

cheech13

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As much as I hate to say it, if it's all of the Lakers young players, picks and salary relief it's not that bad of an offer. They can easily outbid Milwaukie, LAC and the Knicks. Maybe Boston offers something better this summer but it's probably in New Orleans' best interest to end this before the trade deadline. It's not an ideal situation to let linger over a franchise for many more months.
 

Big John

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If AD is gone, Ainge needs to implement plan B, which is improving the team for the playoffs and chasing Durant this Summer.