Are the Pats the worst team in the NFL?

[dirtynine]

I get that it’s not ideal, but I don’t think Mayo walking back or rephrasing post-game comments actually matters. It’s embarrassing and not reflective of somebody who’s great in front of the media. I don’t want an embarrassing coach. But it doesn’t affect the team in any way. Aside from the media harping and us cringing it doesn’t affect the W-L record at all.

Things that matter: Clock and game management. Schemes and tactics. Aggressiveness. Knowing the rulebook. Ability to connect with and motivate lots of different personalities. Creativity. Cunning. Instinct. Ability to learn and adjust. Intelligence.

Jury’s out on pretty much all of those, for me. The stuff he needs the most help with is also the stuff you can learn and get better at. I assume that he is, and I think it’s fair to give him this year to learn them.

However: I haven’t seen any of the intangible, “un-learnable” qualities he’s supposed to have help the team yet. (Unless you count when in the season he chose to start Maye - I tend not to give him much credit for that.) I don’t want too many more wins this year, but I would like a few fist-pump moments that happen because Mayo played his cards well. I want to see what his identity, his winning style is. I want announcers saying stuff like “and that’s what you get with a Jerrod Mayo coached team” in that glowing way they like to. That’s the stuff we should start seeing soon, or there’s a problem.

TL;DR: Team May(o)be

 

[Garshaparra]

That makes me shudder, thinking of having Tavai or Elliss having to cover people 25-30 yards down field. The players aren't being put in good positions, and they aren't good enough to overcome that.

It happened in the Colts game. Tavai was so out of position, he basically hit Pittman with a spear to stop a wobbly 29 yard reception. Maybe Mapu gets there cleanly, but he was out.

 

[Salem's Lot]

The best thing that could happen to this organization over these last 4 games is for Maye to continue to play well but for the coaching and rest of the roster to continue to be so collectively terrible that it forces the Krafts to clean house. When do season ticket renewals have to be in by?

 

[Justthetippett]

The best thing that could happen to this organization over these last 4 games is for Maye to continue to play well but for the coaching and rest of the roster to continue to be so collectively terrible that it forces the Krafts to clean house. When do season ticket renewals have to be in by?

I think Mayo has already shown enough to merit a change. Wolf too, to be honest. Barring some absolute coaching debacle (which will be hard to pull off in games that don't really matter with very little stress), I'd say Mayo and Wolf's future depends much more on who becomes available. If it's a lackluster batch of candidates (or ones that won't come here, like Bill), then he'll certainly stick with the current management. I'd already peg that at >90% likely. If Shanahan or someone shakes loose unexpectedly, then it's a different story. We're probably a year away from going all in on a college coach or some other less established shiny object.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

The best thing that could happen to this organization over these last 4 games is for Maye to continue to play well but for the coaching and rest of the roster to continue to be so collectively terrible that it forces the Krafts to clean house. When do season ticket renewals have to be in by?

I don’t think there’s any way the Pats can play so poorly to force a change what the same time Maye plays well

Unless they lose 4 straight by scores of 55-10 or something, I can’t imagine Kraft will even consider reversing course

if Maye plays well over the next 4, they should be at least vaguely competitive in most of those games which means another year+ of Mayo and Wolf

 

[NomarsFool]

It has been mentioned, but I still don't think it's been mentioned enough, is that Wolf is hardly blameless for the roster. Of course BB had the ultimate say in the roster before this season, but I don't think Wolf and the rest of the scouting team could possibly have been 100% opposed to everything the Pats did prior to this last offseason. If they were - BB would have fired them.

Since he took over, Wolf resigned a lot of the guys that BB (and Wolf drafted), signed some FAs that didn't work out at all, made a steal of a trade with Judon (I would argue after not realizing there was a problem earlier), and Maye aside had a pretty horrific draft. I would say we have some good evidence this player evaluation team doesn't have it.

 

[Red Averages]

It has been mentioned, but I still don't think it's been mentioned enough, is that Wolf is hardly blameless for the roster. Of course BB had the ultimate say in the roster before this season, but I don't think Wolf and the rest of the scouting team could possibly have been 100% opposed to everything the Pats did prior to this last offseason. If they were - BB would have fired them.

Since he took over, Wolf resigned a lot of the guys that BB (and Wolf drafted), signed some FAs that didn't work out at all, made a steal of a trade with Judon (I would argue after not realizing there was a problem earlier), and Maye aside had a pretty horrific draft. I would say we have some good evidence this player evaluation team doesn't have it.

At what point are we allowed to acknowledge what they are doing with the salary cap? The Pats had the 2nd worst cap space in 2023, to the fourth best in 2024, to by far the most cap space heading into 2025. That seems very intentional to me. Put out a poor team in 2024 with a rookie coaching staff and rookie 22 year old QB. Roll over some cap space and don’t tie yourself into bad contracts. Get a great pick for 25 and deploy a lot of that cap space on younger talent to supplement the rookie QB salary and the incoming draft picks. It’s the sort of thing a medium term front office would do. It makes a lot of sense and they deserve a lot of credit for it. They have $100mm more in cap space for 2025 than the 3 other AFC East teams… combined.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/_/year/2025/sort/cap_maximum_space

 

[NomarsFool]

I wouldn’t give anyone “credit” for not spending money, it’s about the easiest decision one can make in sports.

I would have given them credit if they dumpster dove and came up with a few gems. But, I don’t think that’s the case.

 

[Red Averages]

Tough crowd. Here I thought financial planning to maximize your opportunity zone was something smart businesses did all the time. Silly me.

 

[NomarsFool]

Lawrence to IR. Seems extremely unlikely he would come back for their last game of the season. So, Mac gets a chance to be Mac.

 

[skip wright]

Or maybe it was that BB really was an incredible coach and actually got the most out of his players.

best post of the day

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I think if BB were here he takes Alt at 3 and signs a FA QB and takes another QB later in the draft.

If that is the case, I'd rather be where we are now.

 

[NDame616]

At what point are we allowed to acknowledge what they are doing with the salary cap? The Pats had the 2nd worst cap space in 2023, to the fourth best in 2024, to by far the most cap space heading into 2025. That seems very intentional to me. Put out a poor team in 2024 with a rookie coaching staff and rookie 22 year old QB. Roll over some cap space and don’t tie yourself into bad contracts. Get a great pick for 25 and deploy a lot of that cap space on younger talent to supplement the rookie QB salary and the incoming draft picks. It’s the sort of thing a medium term front office would do. It makes a lot of sense and they deserve a lot of credit for it. They have $100mm more in cap space for 2025 than the 3 other AFC East teams… combined.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/_/year/2025/sort/cap_maximum_space

I think a big problem with this is typically the best players available don't hit free agency. This isn't MLB where a generational player shakes free every few years and there is a bidding war. Young talent hitting free agency isn't really a thing in the NFL.

If you say we should trade for Higgins/Metcalf and extend them I'm all for it. But hoping to rebuild the team via free agency is difficult

 

[BaseballJones]

Pretty sure Higgins will be a free agent.

From SI's Jeremy Fowler:

He's set to become a free agent in March. ESPN's Jeremy Fowler thinks it's unlikely that he's back in Cincinnati in 2025. "There's little to no chance Higgins is in Cincinnati beyond 2024," Fowler wrote. "People I've talked to feel pretty strongly about that, barring a major surprise. A second franchise tag would cost the Bengals around $26.2 million on a one-year rental. Higgins wanted out of Cincinnati last offseason, and the Bengals will likely allocate resources for a Ja'Marr Chase contract. Higgins will have a strong market because of the number of receiver-needy teams and Higgins' WR1 traits."

FWIW anyway...

 

[Red Averages]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2025-nfl-free-agent-rankings

Anyway, the main point is they have put themselves in not just fantastic, but the best, position to court free agents for the next few years. They have the 22 year old QB that looks very promising with several more years on a rookie contract, a top 2 cornerback who also happens to be 22, a ton of cash, and another top 5 pick to add to the mix. Their division is largely peaking out here. The dolphins and Jets next few years are awful, the Bills are amazing this year but are going to run into cap trouble shortly. The narrative around this team can change fairly quickly (1-2 years) and it’s because they saved money this year and have a terrible record. Two things this board seems to criticize them for.

 

[lexrageorge]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2025-nfl-free-agent-rankings

Anyway, the main point is they have put themselves in not just fantastic, but the best, position to court free agents for the next few years. They have the 22 year old QB that looks very promising with several more years on a rookie contract, a top 2 cornerback who also happens to be 22, a ton of cash, and another top 5 pick to add to the mix. Their division is largely peaking out here. The dolphins and Jets next few years are awful, the Bills are amazing this year but are going to run into cap trouble shortly. The narrative around this team can change fairly quickly (1-2 years) and it’s because they saved money this year and have a terrible record. Two things this board seems to criticize them for.

As I noted in the other thread, between the two options of:

a.) Having some veteran QB such as Russell Wilson perhaps 2 or 3 more wins; or

b.) Having a 22 year old Drake Maye under team control for 4 more years and entering an offseason with a top 5 pick and oodles of cash

Option (b) is much better for the long term outlook.

Still, this is a critical offseason, and if Wolf doesn't come through in either free agency or the draft, the situation gets ugly quickly.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

As I noted in the other thread, between the two options of:

a.) Having some veteran QB such as Russell Wilson perhaps 2 or 3 more wins; or

b.) Having a 22 year old Drake Maye under team control for 4 more years and entering an offseason with a top 5 pick and oodles of cash

Option (b) is much better for the long term outlook.

Still, this is a critical offseason, and if Wolf doesn't come through in either free agency or the draft, the situation gets ugly quickly.

Where’s the proof that BB wouldn’t have drafted a QB? Seems like you’re offering a false set of choices. Bill drafted more QB’s in New England (despite having Brady) than almost any other front office in that 20 year span.

Also, if they don’t have Maye, wouldn’t they have either Harrison (or Alt) or a boatload of picks (via trade with the Giants or someone)?

Shitting on Bb for the things he did do seems reasonable. Making up hypotheticals to justify why him not being here is a good thing seems absurd.

I could just as easily say, we know Bill wanted to win. So he would have traded the 2nd (Polk) pick for Higgins. He loves big ticket defenders so he would have signed Wilkins. He loves to trade down so he would have maneuvered around and ended up with Nix and Odunze. Then signed a mentor bridge QB. An off-season of Wilson (or whatever), Nix, Odunze, Higgins and Wilkins is assuredly better than Maye, Polk, Okorafor, Watts, Takitaki and Osborn. Definitely should have stuck with BB in my hypothetical

I do think Bb would have spent more money than Wolf. I do think he would have used that 3rd overall pick (or traded) and not just forfeited it. So acting as if it’s “Russell Wilson” vs “Drake Maye” is intellectually dishonest at best.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2025-nfl-free-agent-rankings

Anyway, the main point is they have put themselves in not just fantastic, but the best, position to court free agents for the next few years. They have the 22 year old QB that looks very promising with several more years on a rookie contract, a top 2 cornerback who also happens to be 22, a ton of cash, and another top 5 pick to add to the mix. Their division is largely peaking out here. The dolphins and Jets next few years are awful, the Bills are amazing this year but are going to run into cap trouble shortly. The narrative around this team can change fairly quickly (1-2 years) and it’s because they saved money this year and have a terrible record. Two things this board seems to criticize them for.

They had a ton of cash to spend last off-season and spent it on dumpster divining and (IMO) very questionable re-signings

Why are we expecting that pile of cash and great position financially to lead to quality acquisitions?

 

[lexrageorge]

Where’s the proof that BB wouldn’t have drafted a QB? Seems like you’re offering a false set of choices. Bill drafted more QB’s in New England (despite having Brady) than almost any other front office in that 20 year span.

I never mentioned anything about Bill Belichick.

Also, if they don’t have Maye, wouldn’t they have either Harrison (or Alt) or a boatload of picks (via trade with the Giants or someone)?

Shitting on Bb for the things he did do seems reasonable. Making up hypotheticals to justify why him not being here is a good thing seems absurd.

I could just as easily say, we know Bill wanted to win. So he would have traded the 2nd (Polk) pick for Higgins. He loves big ticket defenders so he would have signed Wilkins. He loves to trade down so he would have maneuvered around and ended up with Nix and Odunze. Then signed a mentor bridge QB. An off-season of Wilson (or whatever), Nix, Odunze, Higgins and Wilkins is assuredly better than Maye, Polk, Okorafor, Watts, Takitaki and Osborn. Definitely should have stuck with BB in my hypothetical

Bo Nix is by far the most overrated rookie QB in this forum. And if it was so easy to trade a 2nd for Higgins, why didn't any other team do it?

I do think Bb would have spent more money than Wolf. I do think he would have used that 3rd overall pick (or traded) and not just forfeited it. So acting as if it’s “Russell Wilson” vs “Drake Maye” is intellectually dishonest at best.

I responded to the hypothetical that was presented, not to one that you crafted in your mind.

 

[BaseballJones]

All I know about Bo Nix is that the results are fantastic.

Last 9 games: 194-296 (65.5%), 2,182 yds, 7.4 y/a, 16 td, 4 int, 99.8 rating, Den is 6-3 over that span, averaging 27.0 points a game

 

[ShaneTrot]

All I know about Bo Nix is that the results are fantastic.

Last 9 games: 194-296 (65.5%), 2,182 yds, 7.4 y/a, 16 td, 4 int, 99.8 rating, Den is 6-3 over that span, averaging 27.0 points a game

He is also playing behind the best pass-blocking line in the league.

 

[Cellar-Door]

All I know about Bo Nix is that the results are fantastic.

Last 9 games: 194-296 (65.5%), 2,182 yds, 7.4 y/a, 16 td, 4 int, 99.8 rating, Den is 6-3 over that span, averaging 27.0 points a game

Here is a rookie QB we know well over 9 games.... 187-261, 2,113 yds, 8.1 Y/A, 14TD, 5 INT, 105.4 Rate, 7-2 record, 31 points a game.

QB performance can be heavily driven by O-line and coaching.

 

[BaseballJones]

All true, but it's not like he's playing poorly. He's doing very well.

 

[lexrageorge]

All true, but it's not like he's playing poorly. He's doing very well.

Don't get me wrong: Bo Nix was a very good pick for Denver.

I prefer the higher ceiling of the younger Maye. And I'm not at all convinced that trading down to pick Nix would have been the best choice for New England.

 

[BaseballJones]

Don't get me wrong: Bo Nix was a very good pick for Denver.

I prefer the higher ceiling of the younger Maye. And I'm not at all convinced that trading down to pick Nix would have been the best choice for New England.

I am with you. I prefer Maye as well. Totally giddy about having him and think his future is super bright with the Pats.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

They had a ton of cash to spend last off-season and spent it on dumpster divining and (IMO) very questionable re-signings

Why are we expecting that pile of cash and great position financially to lead to quality acquisitions?

I remember having furious debates around here in the c. 2002-2007 era about whether the new owners of the Boston Celtics would ever allow the team to go into the luxury tax.

Or whether all the rhetoric about being championship-driven was a something like a show biz distraction from a group whose track record was to assemble the kind of [not-very-expensive roster + big expiring contracts + draft picks] that allowed them to extract a whole bunch of cash from the team every year.

The main evidence presented for why they would never spend money is that they never had. 'Never' by spring 2007 meaning the five years they owned the team.

Then the summer of Garnett/Allen trades happened and bam-pow! the team went into the luxury tax in about 15 minutes while filling out the roster with solid vets. In retrospect it sure looks like 'never' was always gonna go away fast when the right conditions were met.

Back to the present day.

Wolf has had ten months of doing his job without Belichick as the final decision-maker on all personnel matters.

Imma stay a little cautious about assuming what the last ten months do and don't tell us about what we might see in the future.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I remember having furious debates around here in the c. 2002-2007 era about whether the new owners of the Boston Celtics would ever allow the team to go into the luxury tax.

Or whether all the rhetoric about being championship-driven was a something like a show biz distraction from a group whose track record was to assemble the kind of [not-very-expensive roster + big expiring contracts + draft picks] that allowed them to extract a whole bunch of cash from the team every year.

The main evidence presented for why they would never spend money is that they never had. 'Never' by spring 2007 meaning the five years they owned the team.

Then the summer of Garnett/Allen trades happened and bam-pow! the team went into the luxury tax in about 15 minutes while filling out the roster with solid vets. In retrospect it sure looks like 'never' was always gonna go away fast when the right conditions were met.

Back to the present day.

Wolf has had ten months of doing his job without Belichick as the final decision-maker on all personnel matters.

Imma stay a little cautious about assuming what the last ten months do and don't tell us about what we might see in the future.

Your work in this thread/forum is greatly appreciated but again you are engaging with someone who not only knows better but also is able to see how things will play out before they happen.

If I had that ability I might use it to wager on everything imaginable but some people just like to repeat the point all day, every day, that the Pats and their fans are absolutely doomed.

 

[Zedia]

I am with you. I prefer Maye as well. Totally giddy about having him and think his future is super bright with the Pats.

Every time I watch the Broncos (all of about 5 minutes all season), he makes terrible throws that defenders drop. Like I think I’ve seen 3 “shoulda been“ interceptions.

 

[Red Averages]

They had a ton of cash to spend last off-season and spent it on dumpster divining and (IMO) very questionable re-signings

Why are we expecting that pile of cash and great position financially to lead to quality acquisitions?

Yeah becuase you are missing the entire strategy. It’s not difficult. The team not only was not in a position to win this year, but actively incentivized to be terrible. That would give them the best chances of success in ‘25, but mainly, 26-29. It’s not at all difficult to figure out. The Pats have total freedom of checkbook in the next 3-4 years and are positively trending while half of the division is down trending. Again it’s not at all difficult to see this if you reduce whatever bias you’re holding onto.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

Your work in this thread/forum is greatly appreciated

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

some people just like to repeat the point all day, every day, that the Pats and their fans are absolutely doomed

I started following the team in the 70s.. it's like I'm young again!

The trees are in bloom, young girls have a blush in their cheeks, the Pats will suck forever... what could be finer?

"Daisy, daisy, give me your answer true | I'm half crazy, all for the love of you | It won't be a stylish marriage | I can't afford a carriage| but..."

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

One of these decades I'm gonna write a long post here about the many glories of Randy Vataha and Sam the Bam Cunningham... but for now y'all are spared

It's gonna be like Beowolf but better and more lyrical and shit

 

[jk333]

The team not only was not in a position to win this year, but actively incentivized to be terrible. That would give them the best chances of success in ‘25, but mainly, 26-29. It’s not at all difficult to figure out. The Pats have total freedom of checkbook in the next 3-4 years and are positively trending while half of the division is down trending. Again it’s not at all difficult to see this if you reduce whatever bias you’re holding onto.

Great post. Expanding on this, it’s why they were going to sign Ridley if they got a good deal but wouldn’t overpay.

Nonetheless, they have to be honest with themselves about outbidding other teams this offseason and next. As many others have pointed out, there aren’t very many good options that get to free agency and only a handful that actually are a need- there are no good deals when you put your team in a position of NEEDING one of them. They must overpay.

That’s where I criticize Wolf. Like Mayo, this year was a lost cause since last season but they need to find better players and bring players with potential to the roster. They failed at that last offseason, IMO. People on this board posted about it, and every criticism has been 100% valid. It’s blunted because, as you note, they were setting up for the future but it’s still concerning the degree to which they (didn’t) bring in a few promising young players. (draft, progress, or free agents, Boutte is the only real success)

 

[lexrageorge]

Great post. Expanding on this, it’s why they were going to sign Ridley if they got a good deal but wouldn’t overpay.

Nonetheless, they have to be honest with themselves about outbidding other teams this offseason and next. As many others have pointed out, there aren’t very many good options that get to free agency and only a handful that actually are a need- there are no good deals when you put your team in a position of NEEDING one of them. They must overpay.

That’s where I criticize Wolf. Like Mayo, this year was a lost cause since last season but they need to find better players and bring players with potential to the roster. They failed at that last offseason, IMO. People on this board posted about it, and every criticism has been 100% valid. It’s blunted because, as you note, they were setting up for the future but it’s still concerning the degree to which they (didn’t) bring in a few promising young players. (draft, progress, or free agents, Boutte is the only real success)

Boutte was drafted in 2023 by Belichick the GM.

Agree with your overall premise. Wolf and the Pats may very well have to step outside their comfort zone to some extent when it comes to signing free agents this offseason. I get that payroll efficiency is a constraint in a capped league, but the roster badly needs an infusion of talent. They needed it last offseason as well, but I'm more willing than some to offer it as a mulligan. As for the draft, willing to wait a year to see if any of Polk/Wallace/Robinson can grow into a role, but it's not a good look given that the team is already looking for upgrades in their respective positions. Expecting any more than 1 of them to contribute long term seems unlikely.

 

[Garshaparra]

Great post. Expanding on this, it’s why they were going to sign Ridley if they got a good deal but wouldn’t overpay.

Nonetheless, they have to be honest with themselves about outbidding other teams this offseason and next. As many others have pointed out, there aren’t very many good options that get to free agency and only a handful that actually are a need- there are no good deals when you put your team in a position of NEEDING one of them. They must overpay.

That’s where I criticize Wolf. Like Mayo, this year was a lost cause since last season but they need to find better players and bring players with potential to the roster. They failed at that last offseason, IMO. People on this board posted about it, and every criticism has been 100% valid. It’s blunted because, as you note, they were setting up for the future but it’s still concerning the degree to which they (didn’t) bring in a few promising young players. (draft, progress, or free agents, Boutte is the only real success)

They had very little of premium value players on the entire roster, a shambles of an O-line, and a brand new, untested head coach. It's no wonder the FA community at-large hedged their bets and wouldn't sign. So they went to their above-average players and paid em a little more than their worth to keep them here - Rham, Duggar, Henry, Barmore and Godchaux. Absolutely none of these are cap killers or true overpays. Rham and Duggar are 8th highest paid at their position Henry 14th, Barmore and Godchaux 20th and 53rd respectively. Rham, Henry and Godchaux have all played at or near the level of their pay. Barmore and Duggar have dealt with injuries all season. Really, one can't complain about the efforts and value of any of these signings.

Now, with Maye aboard, and lots of need, I expect some major splashes this off-season. enough to return them to contender status. I wouldn't guarantee a playoff spot, but contending for a wild card is feasible, and certainly closer to .500 than this team. Get it done, Theo.

 

[Red Averages]

Well said. The best thing the front office could do was be patient. But this offseason is the time to start going shopping. The offense next year could be a true strength between a Maye leap, 2 additions to the O-line, and a stud WR whether in FA or a top 5 draft pick.

The defense already has a stud cornerback on a rookie salary, and a few compelling pieces, but will also need a few additions. Thankfully they have the toolkit available. Time to use the hammer.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

To me the thing to be bullish on is the impact Maye's development has on the team as a destination. They appear to have a legit QB1 and they have money to invest into the roster. And the offseason should give us a much better picture on not only Wolf's capabilities but also Mayo's reputation in the game. If players still are balking at NE, it will definitely raise more questions about both in their roles.

Setting aside the histrionics around here on Sundays, its hard to get a objective read on these two functions right now. While its hard to be super bullish, they are inheriting a pretty big mess and whether its sports or business, turnarounds tend to take more than a few months.

 

[BaseballJones]

On the topic of a "winning" or "losing" culture, what do we make of the Lions? They've had like the worst losing culture in the NFL forever and ever, and all of a sudden they're good. There's another thread discussing how they did it, so I won't go into that. It's just that you can be a losing, losing, losing franchise and then make a few good moves and before you know it, you're the cream of the crop. (it was more than just a "few" good moves, but it has happened very quickly for them when they were trash before - 2019-2021: 3-12-1, 5-11, 3-13-1)

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

On the topic of a "winning" or "losing" culture, what do we make of the Lions? They've had like the worst losing culture in the NFL forever and ever, and all of a sudden they're good. There's another thread discussing how they did it, so I won't go into that. It's just that you can be a losing, losing, losing franchise and then make a few good moves and before you know it, you're the cream of the crop. (it was more than just a "few" good moves, but it has happened very quickly for them when they were trash before - 2019-2021: 3-12-1, 5-11, 3-13-1)

It also was because Campbell set the tone of the franchise by being extremely aggressive in going for wins, even if they weren't initially coming. Basically the opposite of whatever the hell Mayo has done this year.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

On the topic of a "winning" or "losing" culture, what do we make of the Lions? They've had like the worst losing culture in the NFL forever and ever, and all of a sudden they're good. There's another thread discussing how they did it, so I won't go into that. It's just that you can be a losing, losing, losing franchise and then make a few good moves and before you know it, you're the cream of the crop. (it was more than just a "few" good moves, but it has happened very quickly for them when they were trash before - 2019-2021: 3-12-1, 5-11, 3-13-1)

it’s not really any different than when Parcells came to New England

coaching, the right mix of players and results (which usually follow the first 2) defines culture and things can turn around quickly when you nail the right coach and front office.

If you fail to find the right coach/GM mix, you end up like the Jets since Rex Ryan or Browns since basically their reintroduction into the league.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

It also was because Campbell set the tone of the franchise by being extremely aggressive in going for wins, even if they weren't initially coming. Basically the opposite of whatever the hell Mayo has done this year.

If he was extremely aggressive and putting up 4-13 seasons because the talent sucked, nobody would be claiming Campbell is a good coach

I think his tough guy, hard nosed attitude, the staff he’s put together plus the great work by Brad Holmes has done a lot more for Detroit’s culture than his aggressiveness on 4th downs

 

[chilidawg]

On the topic of a "winning" or "losing" culture, what do we make of the Lions? They've had like the worst losing culture in the NFL forever and ever, and all of a sudden they're good. There's another thread discussing how they did it, so I won't go into that. It's just that you can be a losing, losing, losing franchise and then make a few good moves and before you know it, you're the cream of the crop. (it was more than just a "few" good moves, but it has happened very quickly for them when they were trash before - 2019-2021: 3-12-1, 5-11, 3-13-1)

Most teams that have quick turnarounds have been bad for a while drafted high for a number of years, finally hit on some and then made a couple tweaks that get them over the top. Houston and Detroit fit those descriptions.

 

[Toe Nash]

One could argue that being conservative on 4th is showing the defense and special teams that you believe in their ability to get the job done. Obviously the defense hasn't been doing that, but why is it only good if you are aggressive?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

If he was extremely aggressive and putting up 4-13 seasons because the talent sucked, nobody would be claiming Campbell is a good coach

I think his tough guy, hard nosed attitude, the staff he’s put together plus the great work by Brad Holmes has done a lot more for Detroit’s culture than his aggressiveness on 4th downs

I think it's more important than you think. Campbell instilled a program of aggressively going for wins at all times. That IMO pays off long term because the players come to expect it.

Look at the shit Mayo does in contrast. He shows the players he doesn't think they can win with his ultra-conservative strategic calls.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

One could argue that being conservative on 4th is showing the defense and special teams that you believe in their ability to get the job done. Obviously the defense hasn't been doing that, but why is it only good if you are aggressive?

Because defense and special teams by their very nature are more passive, and cannot control the game like the offense can.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

Because defense and special teams by their very nature are more passive, and cannot control the game like the offense can.

Have you seen the Patriot's offense?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Have you seen the Patriot's offense?

With Drake Maye? I certainly have, and I like what I see.

The decision not to go for 2 at the end of the TEN game was criminally cautious.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

With Drake Maye? I certainly have, and I like what I see.

The decision not to go for 2 at the end of the TEN game was criminally cautious.

I was going to add they'd get a false start. Then get called for a hold. Then still end up having to punt it away anyways.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I was going to add they'd get a false start. Then get called for a hold. Then still end up having to punt it away anyways.

And yet they're still good on offense with Maye. They need to aggressively pursue wins but Mayo never does. It's really frustrating.

 

[Remagellan]

Brandon Staley coached equally aggressively, but was mocked throughout his tenure and out of a job for doing so. Dan Quinn famously took heat for being aggressive instead of playing smart situational football when his team had a 28-3 lead in a certain situation we all recall.

It's not that simple as just being aggressive. Talent matters. Results matter.