Ay, There's the Rub

singaporesoxfan

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Was reading the article about Brady proving that ball inflation is irrelevant to his greatness that was posted in the DFG thread, and halfway through the article starts talking about the Pats' offensive schemes this year:



 
 
Using picks and rubs and alignments that disrupt linebackers and defensive backs, New England has been freeing up pieces by daring officials to start calling more penalties for illegal offensive contact.
 
 
 
Like the offensive line alignments against the Baltimore Ravens, you can bet this latest iteration of the Patriots offense will bring about complaints. And it would be no surprise if there was some offseason emphasis – or maybe even in-season emphasis – on illegal contact by offensive players. Until then, opponents will have to adjust and survive.

I'm not a film guy, but is that an accurate read of this year's schemes? Not altogether worried if an increased emphasis takes such schemes away, since the genius of Belichick is that he'll just move on and find another way to succeed. Just wondering if the conclusion that the offense is using more picks/rubs than before (and skirting the line of what constitutes illegal contact) is even correct in the first place.
 

Rudi Fingers

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[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2&v=RgloErF-H2c[/media]
 
It's not like other teams don't use alignments that disrupt linebackers and defensive backs...
 

BaseballJones

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I thought about this watching the game.  People talk about the Patriots' "cheating", blah blah blah.  But consider this one play.  Dion Lewis, a castoff of two NFL teams, oft-injured, and not highly sought after, is a guy the Patriots took a chance on.  Brought him in to replace SB hero Shane Vereen.  Yesterday he made an incredible play for a touchdown.  
 
http://nesn.com/2015/10/dion-lewis-makes-one-handed-catch-breaks-multiple-tackles-before-touchdown-video/
 
Lewis makes a great one handed catch on a pass thrown behind him, jukes a guy, ducks under another, puts on a burst of speed, and finishes it off with power for a spectacular touchdown.  
 
That is simply a phenomenal play by a talented young player that ANY TEAM IN THE NFL COULD HAVE HAD for a song.  That is why the Patriots are better than everyone else.  They get guys like this who end up being tremendous for them.  
 
Cheating?  Are you kidding me?  This is all about talent and hard work.
 
EDIT:  A little more on topic...Denver uses pick/rub plays all the time.  And it's not like NE hasn't gotten called for offensive PI.  Seems to happen at least once a game.
 

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Charles Robinson also mentioned the "icy" 2nd half of the AFCCG. You mean that night in Late January when it was almost 50 degrees? Happy he's backing Brady, but accuracy doesn't seem like his strong suit.
 

lars10

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Is what Edelman did a penalty typically on the offense?  I thought the defender had to go around the offensive player?
 
If there's a team that will be devastated offensively if picks or rubs are taken away it's the Denver Broncos.
 
https://youtu.be/BZQU8nrtyL4
 

singaporesoxfan

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To be clearer, my question is really one about tactics rather than "are the Patriots going to get dinged again?" or "all teams do this!" - I agree that Denver is the epitome of a team that lives by those kinds of picks or rubs. Just wondering if the Patriots are really using pick/rub routes any more this season than they have in previous years. Doesn't seem dramatically so to me but I'm not enough of a film guy to know.
 

wiffleballhero

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It does not seem like a bad way to have shuffled off the mortal coil of the defender, although for a small guy like Edelman it might be a suicide mission running into some of these linebackers.
 

lars10

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singaporesoxfan said:
To be clearer, my question is really one about tactics rather than "are the Patriots going to get dinged again?" or "all teams do this!" - I agree that Denver is the epitome of a team that lives by those kinds of picks or rubs. Just wondering if the Patriots are really using pick/rub routes any more this season than they have in previous years. Doesn't seem dramatically so to me but I'm not enough of a film guy to know.
Purely from watching the games it seems like the pats are running a lot more quick plays and a lot more wide sets with multiple WRs, RBs, and TEs in various positions to try and confuse the defense.  Along with that the also seem to be running more rubs and picks to me than I remember in past years.  But that could also have to do with Edelman and Amendola playing together more because they're so quick and can use those to their advantage.
 

Silverdude2167

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I may not understand the rules, but a lot of the OPI I see called on the Pats from these rub routes is not actually OPI in how I understand the rules.
 
The Edelman OPI on the first big pass to Amendola is one I thought was wrong. He was running his route and did interfere with the DB but did not alter his route, so shouldn't that be legal?
 
Also, a bunch of this stuff seems to happen within 1 yard of the LOI so shouldn't it not matter anyways?
 
I haven't agreed with many of the OPI calls like this I have seen, but maybe I just really don't understand the rules properly.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I don't know if the Patriots are using rub routes more often.  My guess is that, if this is the case, the increase in such routes is pretty marginal and only something you're going to identify with confidence by charting every play.
 
What I do know is that the league is extremely inconsistent in calling these penalties.  We had two big gainers called back yesterday for "pick plays" that did not seem like picks to me.  These weren't calls where Edelman or whoever clearly deviated from his route to chip a defensive back or threw a shoulder into him as he passed.  These were just plays in which the designed route took the receiver into the DB's path and there was a collision.
 

pokey_reese

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lars10 said:
Purely from watching the games it seems like the pats are running a lot more quick plays and a lot more wide sets with multiple WRs, RBs, and TEs in various positions to try and confuse the defense.  Along with that the also seem to be running more rubs and picks to me than I remember in past years.  But that could also have to do with Edelman and Amendola playing together more because they're so quick and can use those to their advantage.
I think that we also run into a difficult identification situation because it depends on the ability of the defender to identify and correct for situations where a pick or rub is taking place, in order for us to notice it. What I mean is, if Julian and Danny are both running underneath routes that cross or come near each other, and in one instance the defenders are playing super tight and they collide, it looks like an obvious pick play. But if the defender sees that coming and loops around, or drops back and lets a lineback or dropped D lineman pick up one of the crossers, then we never get the pick/rub part of the play, even if the route combo was identical both times. Basically, a pick is partially dependent on the response of the defensive players/scheme to the routes (as we saw with Bulter in the SB).
 

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
I don't know if the Patriots are using rub routes more often.  My guess is that, if this is the case, the increase in such routes is pretty marginal and only something you're going to identify with confidence by charting every play.
 
What I do know is that the league is extremely inconsistent in calling these penalties.  We had two big gainers called back yesterday for "pick plays" that did not seem like picks to me.  These weren't calls where Edelman or whoever clearly deviated from his route to chip a defensive back or threw a shoulder into him as he passed.  These were just plays in which the designed route took the receiver into the DB's path and there was a collision.
 
Right, what was the difference between these and the Edelman TD after the Amendola rub?
 

Salva135

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The Dallas boards are buzzing with the accusations of the Pats using "illegal pick plays."   Specifically, there's video of the over-the-top pass to Edelman that went for a TD showing Amendola getting in the way of a defender and throwing his hands up just before the catch, in a "I didn't do nuthin'" sense, which helped open the lane for Edelman.  If I could embed it I would, but I'm sure it's out there.
 

ifmanis5

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As I recall, the Steelers basically invented this (at least the way it's done now) strategy to free up Hines Ward for big yardage.
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Salva135 said:
The Dallas boards are buzzing with the accusations of the Pats using "illegal pick plays."   Specifically, there's video of the over-the-top pass to Edelman that went for a TD showing Amendola getting in the way of a defender and throwing his hands up just before the catch, in a "I didn't do nuthin'" sense, which helped open the lane for Edelman.  If I could embed it I would, but I'm sure it's out there.
Was that the play that had THREE Cowboys bumping into each other (and Amendola)?
 
When I saw it, I thought that's why Amendola put his hands straight up:  he didnt expect to see three defenders tied up in one place, and he wanted no part of a flag.
 

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Rudi Fingers said:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2&v=RgloErF-H2c[/media]
 
It's not like other teams don't use alignments that disrupt linebackers and defensive backs...
You can see in that view of the play that as soon as Browner talked to Malcolm, Malcolm looked around a bit and then laser focused on Lockette for the whole rest of the play. Browner deserves a ton of credit for the play too.
 

H78

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I really like how the NFL is constantly changing its rule book to try and end the Patriots' dynasty.

That's literally what's happening, year after year. The Patriots draw up great plays (on both sides of the ball), win a lot in part because of it, and the league changes the rules to try and limit the Patriots' success rather than tell teams "why don't you learn how to counteract what they're doing?"

I don't know if I've ever seen so many people ask to have rules changed, or flat-out get the rules changed, to counteract continued success by one player or team. It's the ultimate cop out for people that don't have the mental toughness to compete first and whine second.
 

Trlicek's Whip

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H78 said:
I really like how the NFL is constantly changing its rule book to try and end the Patriots' dynasty.

That's literally what's happening, year after year. The Patriots draw up great plays (on both sides of the ball), win a lot in part because of it, and the league changes the rules to try and limit the Patriots' success rather than tell teams "why don't you learn how to counteract what they're doing?"

I don't know if I've ever seen so many people ask to have rules changed, or flat-out get the rules changed, to counteract continued success by one player or team. It's the ultimate cop out for people that don't have the mental toughness to compete first and whine second.
 
It's also rarely worked. The Pats don't stick to one thing year to year or even game to game; so one year after the Pats take advantage of a legal market inefficiency, all the other teams scrabble to either adapt it or rules-lawyer it out of existence... while the Pats are on to the next season, and the next wrinkles to their game plans. Every other team that works in this manner is always a year behind them. 
 
Unless the NFL goes full "Harrison Bergeron" on the Patriots (Goodell for Handicapper General!) there isn't much the rest of the league can do unless they want to iterate and worry about their own team more than just one of the 32.
 

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Pick plays have been like 75% of Denver's offense since Manning has been there. It's brilliant when he does it, but cheating when the Patriots do it. I can't wait to see what's next.
 

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I honestly don't even understand why it's illegal. Why should playbooks be more limited in a sport where strategy is such a tremendous factor?
 

Bosoxen

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Salva135 said:
The Dallas boards are buzzing with the accusations of the Pats using "illegal pick plays."   Specifically, there's video of the over-the-top pass to Edelman that went for a TD showing Amendola getting in the way of a defender and throwing his hands up just before the catch, in a "I didn't do nuthin'" sense, which helped open the lane for Edelman.  If I could embed it I would, but I'm sure it's out there.
 
To me, that was OPI - one of many that I thought went uncalled yesterday. If a defender initiates that sort of contact with a receiver, it's DPI 100% of the time. The fact that it's not called evenly the other way is very typical pass-friendly NFL crap. It's the reason why the passing stat record du jour doesn't even result in me raising an eyebrow anymore.
 
I felt like they should have cleaned that up years ago. But, of course, if they fix it now, it'll be decried as another anti-Pats rule, so the rest of us are fucked either way.
 

Silverdude2167

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Bosoxen said:
 
To me, that was OPI - one of many that I thought went uncalled yesterday. If a defender initiates that sort of contact with a receiver, it's DPI 100% of the time. The fact that it's not called evenly the other way is very typical pass-friendly NFL crap. It's the reason why the passing stat record du jour doesn't even result in me raising an eyebrow anymore.
 
I felt like they should have cleaned that up years ago. But, of course, if they fix it now, it'll be decried as another anti-Pats rule, so the rest of us are fucked either way.
Why was it OPI? He was running his route and did not alter it to get in a defenders way. So why was it OPI?
 

Bosoxen

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tims4wins said:
So what would the rule be? No crossing patterns?
 
If you make contact with the defender, it's pass interference. Like I said, the same as it is for defensive interference.
 

Silverdude2167

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Bosoxen said:
 
If you make contact with the defender, it's pass interference. Like I said, the same as it is for defensive interference.
But that is not DPI. They can make contact, lots of contact and as long as it is incidental it is not DPI.
 
Also you can not compare the two as one player is trying to go somewhere and one player is trying to follow them. Defensive players are reactionary.
 

tims4wins

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Bosoxen said:
 
If you make contact with the defender, it's pass interference. Like I said, the same as it is for defensive interference.
 
Amendola didn't make any contact though. So ho would that be OPI?
 
Edit: here is the link. Amendola clearly runs a curl and makes no contact. After he has completed his curl the defender runs right into him
 
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/0ap3000000554804/Can-t-Miss-Play-Brady-finds-Edelman-for-59-yard-TD
 
Also, IMO there is a pretty clear difference between a rub and a pick. Pick = initiates contact with defender. Rub = puts himself in position such that defender must go around him without making contact. Kind of like blocking out in basketball.
 

Bosoxen

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He runs to the spot and straifs like a blocker to ensure that he gets in the way of the defender. If you don't see how that's not within the spirit of the game, then we have nothing left to talk about.
 
That looked more like a basketball pick and roll than a football route.
 

Silverdude2167

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Bosoxen said:
 
He runs to the spot and straifs like a blocker to ensure that he gets in the way of the defender. If you don't see how that's not within the spirit of the game, then we have nothing left to talk about.
 
That looked more like a basketball pick and roll than a football route.
If the defender was not there could he have caught a pass? Yes, so then you can not make it illegal.
 

E5 Yaz

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This has been the talking point all day across ESPN programs
 

allstonite

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Bosoxen said:
 
He runs to the spot and straifs like a blocker to ensure that he gets in the way of the defender. If you don't see how that's not within the spirit of the game, then we have nothing left to talk about.
 
That looked more like a basketball pick and roll than a football route.
 
I guess we have nothing to talk about. He runs a quick slant and looks at Brady. 2 defenders go to him and wrap him up (legal I guess because within 5 yards) and the linebacker on the other side (Lee?) just watches him.
 
Edit: I can see he backs into the 2nd defender and it looks unnatural but I don't think it's a pick. The defender behind him can easily get away and get to Edelman but is busy covering Amendola
 

Byrdbrain

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Every team in the league runs picks it is the most basic way to combat tight MtM coverage. Whether you get away with it or not generally depends on if while setting the pick you can plausibly say you were out on an actual pass route. 
In that play Amendola turns to "catch a pass" therefore no call in the earlier plays the guys more or less blocked the defenders therefore OPI. 
 

H78

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And this is Goodell's fault for trying to put the Patriots under a microscope publicly. Now everyone thinks everything they do is cheating and it's covered at such an extent it's insane...which means the league will address it by throwing flags on everyone for borderline "picks," meaning more flags, more complaints about flags, less offense, etc.

The fact that everything the Patriots do is now dissected beyond comprehension and ends up affecting how the league has to be run is 100% the fault of the league itself.
 

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Silverdude2167 said:
If the defender was not there could he have caught a pass? Yes, so then you can not make it illegal.
 
Yes, you can. At the point where he makes contact with a defender, you can.
 
Put another way. A middle linebacker can drop back into coverage all day long. But the moment he makes contact with a receiver running a crossing route, it then becomes illegal contact or pass interference, depending on where the ball is. The fact that receivers can run these types of "routes" with impunity, while defenders can't so much as breathe on a receiver, is the reason the league has gotten so pass-happy.
 

crystalline

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H78 said:
And this is Goodell's fault for trying to put the Patriots under a microscope publicly. Now everyone thinks everything they do is cheating and it's covered at such an extent it's insane...which means the league will address it by throwing flags on everyone for borderline "picks," meaning more flags, more complaints about flags, less offense, etc.

The fact that everything the Patriots do is now dissected beyond comprehension and ends up affecting how the league has to be run is 100% the fault of the league itself.
Have there been more flags thrown this year?

Watching yesterday's game (and the BUF game) it seemed like 1/3rd of plays there was a flag thrown. Which leads to a delay when you don't know whether to be happy or not because it depends on what the penalty was.

I feel like Clete Blakeman had more dramatic moments last night than Tom Brady. That's a problem.
 

E5 Yaz

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crystalline said:
Joke's on whoever is watching ESPN
 
We may see their bias, but we are just 1/32nd of the fan bases that watch ESPN
 
After Herm Edwards and Louis Riddick talked about this this morning on SC, I heard a call on the Rich Eisen radio show from a guy who basically parroted the SC segment
 
Eisen shot it down, saying every club runs similar plays ... specifically pointing out Denver
 

BaseballJones

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When teams run pick plays, the defender has three options.  (1) Go around the pick, (2) Run into the pick, or (3) switch, like in a basketball ball screen play.
 
If you go around it, you'll almost certainly trail the receiver, and it opens up a nice passing lane.  
 
If you switch, you may end up with a slower cover guy on a faster receiver, or a smaller cover guy on a bigger receiver.  For example, if it's near the goal line and the defense has a small corner on Edelman, and a big LB on Gronk (figuring his slower foot speed is less of an issue than size in this area of the field), and there's a pick play between Edelman and Gronk, if the defense switches, now you've got a slow LB on Edelman and a small corner on Gronk.  Brady can either lob it up to Gronk or hit Edelman on a quick crossing route.  Either way the defense is at a major disadvantage.
 
If you run into the pick, you get taken out of the play, but there's at least a chance that the refs will call OPI.  Personally, I think the way I'd coach it is to switch but always have the defender getting picked slam into the guy setting the pick.  That has the following benefits:  (1) You might get the OPI call.  (2) The switch at least keeps both guys covered, even if the matchups aren't ideal.  And (3) if you slam the picker hard enough, it may make him think twice about doing it.  
 
But there's a reason why these plays are so successful.  They're really hard to defend.
 

crystalline

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E5 Yaz said:
 
We may see their bias, but we are just 1/32nd of the fan bases that watch ESPN
 
After Herm Edwards and Louis Riddick talked about this this morning on SC, I heard a call on the Rich Eisen radio show from a guy who basically parroted the SC segment
 
Eisen shot it down, saying every club runs similar plays ... specifically pointing out Denver
No, I just mean that ESPN is basically pure storytelling, fancy eyecatching graphics, and guys screaming at each other. Too bad for anyone that watches it, a fan of any team, on any topic. There's nothing real there. It makes you dumber and its not even fun.

Watching the WWE is more fun. At least the WWE doesn't have quite so many of its storyline targets committing actual crimes, so you can feel better about yourself for watching.
 

crystalline

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... although I did enjoy watching Poland vs Ireland on ESPN during Buffalo commercial breaks yesterday. ESPN's OK when they are actually televising an actual sporting event. Skip Bayless and the rest of the clown show can go jump in a lake.
 

Super Nomario

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Bosoxen said:
Yes, you can. At the point where he makes contact with a defender, you can.
In this case, the defender initiates the contact, however. Amendola is getting in his way on purpose, but he's backing away and the defender is pushing him.
 
I do think you can make a plausible case that this is OPI as the rule is written, because "it is pass interference by either team when any player movement beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders the progress of an eligible player of such player’s opportunity to catch the ball" and "Defensive players have as much right to the path of the ball as eligible offensive players." There probably needs to be some clarification for plays like this. The examples given in the rules clearly don't apply here:
 
Actions that constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to: 
 
(a) Blocking downfield by an offensive player prior to the ball being touched. 
 
(b) Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass. 
 
(c) Driving through a defender who has established a position on the field. 
 
Amendola didn't do any of those things. And "if there is any question whether player contact is incidental, the ruling should be no interference." Generally speaking, if an offensive player (like Amendola) isn't running into the defender or pushing the defender and he's looking at the QB, it's not getting called. I don't think I've ever seen a pass interference penalty for what Amendola did on this play. On the other hand, it is against the spirit of the PI rule. I'm not sure there's an easy answer here.
 

E5 Yaz

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crystalline said:
No, I just mean that ESPN is basically pure storytelling, fancy eyecatching graphics, and guys screaming at each other. Too bad for anyone that watches it, a fan of any team, on any topic. There's nothing real there. It makes you dumber and its not even fun.

Watching the WWE is more fun. At least the WWE doesn't have quite so many of its storyline targets committing actual crimes, so you can feel better about yourself for watching.
 
Yeah, that's not waht I'm talking about. It wasn't on one of the debate shows. It was "straight reporting" on SC and NFL Insiders
 

Bosoxen

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Super Nomario said:
On the other hand, it is against the spirit of the PI rule. I'm not sure there's an easy answer here.
 
This is basically the crux of what I'm saying. And I agree that any implementation would likely be messy. This is the NFL we're talking about here.
 

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How someone can watch that replay and think it's OPI is baffling to me. It's a combination of a well designed play and really poor defense.
 

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I don't think that particular play was OPI, but I agree a lot of OPI isn't called relative to DPI. But I think the solution for a better football product is fewer DPI calls, not aggressive enforcements of OPI.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Bosoxen said:
 
This is basically the crux of what I'm saying. And I agree that any implementation would likely be messy. This is the NFL we're talking about here.
 
Judging intent is such a bad idea and as you said, this is the NFL. We need less flags, not more. This would be a complete shitshow.
 
Why is this a story now? This has been going on for years. Is it really "cause its the Patriots?" it's completely ridiculous. I hate the "cause it's the patriots crap" and try not to fall into that trap of the persecuted franchise, even though it seems to be some how based in reality.]
 
It's not like he tried to take someone out
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZQU8nrtyL4
 

mauf

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Officials are taught to resolve any doubt about whether a penalty occurred in favor of keeping the flag in their pocket. Hits on defenseless players might have become an exception to that rule, but the general rule still holds in most cases. So long as that's the general rule, judgment calls such as whether "rub routes" are OPI will be resolved in favor of no call more often than not. It's not surprising that several of the league's better-run teams (New England, Denver, Pittsburgh) are among the teams that are pushing the envelope hardest in this area, nor is it surprising that fans of one of the league's worst-run teams (Dallas) are complaining the loudest about it.
 

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I tend to doubt that the Patriots are getting materially more offensive PI calls than other teams on crossing patterns and other plays when the "Amendola receiver" crosses paths with a defender who is not covering him.  That said, the Pats did pick up two such calls yesterday and have been flagged for other ones in recent games.  I assume that the same is happening to other offenses at similar rates, but I would love to know if anyone has any data on that.
 
I also tend to doubt that the Patriots are running these kinds of plays much more than other teams and again would love to know if that's correct.
 
From watching the early games yesterday, and from watching other games not involving the Pats in weeks 1-4, one consistent pattern emerges from the early part of this season: Officials are throwing a TON of flags, and of all different varieties.  It's gotten so rampant that I don't take any plays for granted any more; it's not a legit play until it's clear that no flag has been thrown.  As a result, the flurry of offensive PI flags has to be viewed in the flag happy context of this season.
 
So, yeah, the notion that it's all about the Pats seems like BS.  That is, unless and until the NFL makes something a new point of emphasis or changes the rules, and refers to the Patriots in reference to the same, as they did with defensive PI after Polian cried about that or in the aftermath of the Pats-Ravens playoff game.
 
On the other hand, can anyone be surprised when a sports writer discusses something like this and implies that the Patriots have a monopoly on the technique?  That's as lazy as the lament of SOME Pats fans that it's all about us.  
 

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Nov 16, 2004
19,272
From watching the early games yesterday, and from watching other games not involving the Pats in weeks 1-4, one consistent pattern emerges from the early part of this season: Officials are throwing a TON of flags, and of all different varieties.  It's gotten so rampant that I don't take any plays for granted any more; it's not a legit play until it's clear that no flag has been thrown.  As a result, the flurry of offensive PI flags has to be viewed in the flag happy context of this season.