Barcelona 2013-2014: When very good is still not good enough

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bosox4283

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Since I diverted the talk in the transfer thread to Barcelona and how the team will play with Neymar, I thought I should be the one to start the new Barca thread.
 
So, Neymar's in. What does it mean for next year's line-up? Here's I see next year's starting midfield and attack:

Iniesta-Busquets-Xavi
Pedro-Messi-Neymar
 
First three off bench: Cesc, Alexis, Song
Next four of bench: Thiago, Tello, Cuenca, Deulofeu
 
With or without Neymar, I assume Cuenca will be loaned out. The question then becomes: will Thiago and Tello accept being the 4th and/or 5th options off the bench? I know it is a long season with many games (and Xavi is only getting older), but these two players project to be outstanding, and another year of limited time cannot be what they want.
 

soxfan121

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Can Song learn to play like a Barca defender? Because as the third or fourth CB, he's a good fit. I assume the top two are Pique & Puyol, with Mascherano in the mix as well. 
 

kenneycb

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People were very skeptical of him when he signed and that was supported by his disaster if a season. But some players take multiple years to take to La Liga but I would be surprised if they're counting on him playing a significant role.

Also, what are the odds Alexis Sanchez stays with them? He's been looking like another bust but given that Villa is probably done there I could see him staying at least another year.
 

Zososoxfan

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Welp, that's fucked. Soccernet says Rubi, an assistant who managed at Girona last year, is the likely replacement. But that got me thinking, who would be a good longer-term manager for Barca going forward? 
 

bosox4283

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Martino seems to be gaining the most traction today. Barca is looking to announce the new coach by the end of today, fwiw.
 

bosox4283

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Since I started this thread, there has been a lot of movement out of Barcelona: Thiago left for Bayern, and Deulofeu was loaned out to Everton.
 
The starting line-up and the first three off the bench both look the same:
 
Iniesta-Busquests-Xavi
Pedro-Messi-Neymar
 
First three off bench: Cesc, Alexi, Song
Next four off bench: Tello, Cuena (if and when he recovers from surgery), Sergi Roberto, Jonathon Dos Santos
 
To me, Barcelona looks one injury away from being incredibly short-handed. And, with Xavi looking older and older, the team is starting to skate on thin ice. 
 
Once Barcelona announce a new manager, will they sign a new player? Or, does the team have enough faith in Sergi Roberto, Dos Santos, and Cuena recovering from his second knee injury?
 

SoxVindaloo

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bosox4283 said:
Since I started this thread, there has been a lot of movement out of Barcelona: Thiago left for Bayern, and Deulofeu was loaned out to Everton.
 
The starting line-up and the first three off the bench both look the same:
 
Iniesta-Busquests-Xavi
Pedro-Messi-Neymar
 
First three off bench: Cesc, Alexi, Song
Next four off bench: Tello, Cuena (if and when he recovers from surgery), Sergi Roberto, Jonathon Dos Santos
 
To me, Barcelona looks one injury away from being incredibly short-handed. And, with Xavi looking older and older, the team is starting to skate on thin ice. 
 
Once Barcelona announce a new manager, will they sign a new player? Or, does the team have enough faith in Sergi Roberto, Dos Santos, and Cuena recovering from his second knee injury?
They are not super deep but Tello is ready for serious minutes if there is an injury and Cesc is a full time player who will play 2/3rds of the minutes. Big problem is in the back line. They still need 1-2 Center backs. Last I heard Silva from PSG was dead but they are making a big push for Agger.
 

triniSox

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I'd be shocked if Barca acepted any bids for Cesc - he's going to be a big part of Barca this season and in the future. He's going to get plenty of minutes with Thiago gone. They really do need a center back - one of Agger, Luiz or Silva would be ideal with Bartra ready to step up as well.
 
Edit: Looks like Martino is the next manager.
 

triniSox

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Graham Hunter ‏@BumperGraham shares some insight
Okay, not got a lot of time to spare but people asking about Gerardo Martino.
I suspect that over coming months he´ll remind us of Bielsa
 
Not just cos of nationality or Rosario but his teams like to play on the front foot, to be athletic but to press and defensively organized

When Xavi reviewed the most difficult game Spain had when winning the World Cup it was Paraguy he, and others, picked out.
 
He was stunned by how organised, smart and hard working they were. Tata M is going to want some elements of FCB 2008/9 to be restored
 
Whether everyone who is currently on board will be physically able for that remains to be seen. But all the players will endorse the idea
 
Friends tell me that this can be a fiery and confrontational man when needed but that he´s a real football lover, passionate about his work

Whether he´s going to be a success or not is something better judged after hearing him speak, seeing him work and listening to players

That S Rosell appointed someone outside the FCB system, outside the Cruyff influence, who breaks the links from FR, to PG to TV = no shock
 
So, welcome to la Liga Tata Martino, hopefully you´ll give all neutrals fun football and interesting times. The RM v FCB
 
The RM, At Mad, FCB contest, right now, looks as fresh, interesting and exciting as I can remember for a long time. Vamos
 

BRS BC

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David Villa (who I always liked) scored a great goal against his old team in the first leg of the Supercup.  The rare goal where he did everything: perfect hold up play, then the perfect through ball, then a brilliant outside of the foot volley.  Worth looking up.
 
Neymar with the equalizer, so Barca gets a decent result. 
 
And Snake, care to elaborate?
 

Snakebauer007

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The amount of embilshment, feigning injury, waiving imaginary cards etc in the first half is more than I saw in a weekend of EPl action, it was enough for me to lose interest in finishing the game. Then again, it was right on par with most La liga action I have watched in recent times
 

Turrable

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Snakebauer007 said:
The amount of embilshment, feigning injury, waiving imaginary cards etc in the first half is more than I saw in a weekend of EPl action, it was enough for me to lose interest in finishing the game. Then again, it was right on par with most La liga action I have watched in recent times
 
 

BRS BC

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Snakebauer007 said:
The amount of embilshment, feigning injury, waiving imaginary cards etc in the first half is more than I saw in a weekend of EPl action, it was enough for me to lose interest in finishing the game. Then again, it was right on par with most La liga action I have watched in recent times
 Agreed, and it was only the Villa goal that kept me watching.  Well, that and I seem to be willing to watch any game, at any time, if I have the chance. The acting is an odd game, because the players are all aware of the level of embellishment.  You see it when teammates rush to the side of their stricken comrade, gesturing about how much pain he's pretending to be in.  "Look, he wouldn't pretend to be in THAT much pain if that challenge didn't deserve a yellow." 
 

Zososoxfan

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This thread needs an uber-bump after that superclasico. Neymar scores (what I consider) a lucky goal, by megging a defender and the ball taking a slight deflection into the net. Sanchez' goal, on the other hand, was a piece of beautiful brilliance. The formation was also unique to me (note: I haven't watched much Barca this year under Tata), in that there were only 2 strikers/wingers in Messi and Neymar, with Cesc, Xavi, and Iniesta all on the pitch. Discuss.
 

triniSox

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Zososoxfan said:
This thread needs an uber-bump after that superclasico. Neymar scores (what I consider) a lucky goal, by megging a defender and the ball taking a slight deflection into the net. Sanchez' goal, on the other hand, was a piece of beautiful brilliance. The formation was also unique to me (note: I haven't watched much Barca this year under Tata), in that there were only 2 strikers/wingers in Messi and Neymar, with Cesc, Xavi, and Iniesta all on the pitch. Discuss.
First time all season he's deployed that setup to start with Messi out wide. Messi clearly not at 100% recovered from injury so not sure how much that played into it. It kinda ruined Ancelotti's plan of having Ramos shadow Messi in a defensive midfield position.
 
Very intriguing lineup though with Messi basically sacrificed on the right. Messi on the right allowed Iniesta more space through the middle and Neymar space on the left. It takes away the brilliant finishing of Messi in the middle but does open up the game a little bit more for Barca. Very interesting to see if that will be used in big games against teams they've struggled to break down.
 
On a related note, Neymar has been exceptionally good. Not in a flashy kinda way I expected. He's so much more than tricks and flicks which was obvious in Confed Cup but now is proven in La Liga. He has explosive pace, ability to use the dribble/feints to create space and generally makes the right pass. He's not totally assertive yet but he is already a very special player whose best days may be ahead of him.
 

Zososoxfan

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triniSox said:
First time all season he's deployed that setup to start with Messi out wide. Messi clearly not at 100% recovered from injury so not sure how much that played into it. It kinda ruined Ancelotti's plan of having Ramos shadow Messi in a defensive midfield position.
 
Very intriguing lineup though with Messi basically sacrificed on the right. Messi on the right allowed Iniesta more space through the middle and Neymar space on the left. It takes away the brilliant finishing of Messi in the middle but does open up the game a little bit more for Barca. Very interesting to see if that will be used in big games against teams they've struggled to break down.
 
On a related note, Neymar has been exceptionally good. Not in a flashy kinda way I expected. He's so much more than tricks and flicks which was obvious in Confed Cup but now is proven in La Liga. He has explosive pace, ability to use the dribble/feints to create space and generally makes the right pass. He's not totally assertive yet but he is already a very special player whose best days may be ahead of him.
 
Agreed on Neymar. When I watched videos of him in Brazil before the season, I was really impressed with his passing.
 

triniSox

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So Messi is inured again. He should really take his time to recover and come back at 100%. Barca has plenty of quality reserves to keep winning. I'm a bit concerned about overworking Neymar during this time so I'm hoping Tello gets some good run outs and maybe even Cuenca.
 

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triniSox

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@soxhop, that article was pretty funny because of the translations of Neymar's words:
 
 
He told Revista da Internet: "Leo [Messi] had already had two muscular problems. He had come off an unprecedented marathon of matches. Frequent injuries are statistically predictable given the level of physical effort and Leo is having a spell of more predispositions to injuries.
 
"Before his injury was confirmed and as a way to prevent it, the coach created alternatives on offence in which Cesc and I assumed responsibility, working with fewer improvisations.
"Messi is a ten in the artillery. Many times he breaks down the other team's defence and goes after it. This function was assigned to me and Cesc, always working under the hypothesis of a possible loss of Messi and so this could be faced in a way that was the least traumatic."
 
 
Edit:
Deadspin picked up on it: http://deadspin.com/translated-neymar-interviews-are-a-gift-1463130958 Billy Haisley, are you on SOSH? 
 

soxfan121

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Zososoxfan said:
Sandro Rosell stepping down as club President. Seems to have had a tumultuous term.
 
Did he get caught in the lie about Neymar's transfer fee red handed or is he stepping down because proof will eventually be surfacing?
 
That whole situation is shady as hell.
 

Zososoxfan

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This thread is badly in need of a bump. Barca scored a huge win this weekend winning 6-0 against Rayo  Vallecano. Messi had 2 pretty goals, Iniesta had an insane pass to setup another, but Neymar probably had the best goal of the bunch - firing a beautiful looping shot late in the 2nd half. The focus now shifts to the first contest against Man City tomorrow afternoon. Should be an awesome matchup.
 

OilCanMDS

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After the dip in form recently, Barcelona seems to be really hitting their stride.  I hope this isn't a repeat of last season when they struggled with consistency and form to close out the season.
 
Fernandinho is supposed to be playing in the Champions League match.  Without him, I think Barcelona would have destroyed Man City because City don't seem to be able to control the midfield without him.  I think it is going to be close, but I give Barcelona the edge with City missing Aguero (and also because I am biased to Barca).  
 

teddykgb

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Fernandinho is critical for City, but I don't know that he's ready to play the full 90. Huge matchup, obviously, but I don't see how Barca isn't the favorite. Really excited to watch this one, though. Too bad Fernandinho, Aguero, Nasri, and even Negredo are all injured or recovering from injury because I'd love to see this matchup at full force.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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FC Barcelona ‏@FCBarcelona 13m
.@MCFC's starting XI: Hart, Zabaleta, Kompany, Demichelis, Clichy, Fernandinho, Touré, Navas, Koralov, Silva and Negredo #fcblive


FC Barcelona ‏@FCBarcelona 13m
FC Barcelona’s starting XI: Valdés, Alves, Piqué, Mascherano, J.Alba, Sergio, Xavi, Cesc, Alexis, Messi and Iniesta #fcblive
 
I can't tell WTF City is doing with this lineup (Christmas tree?4-2-3-1 with Kolarov/Fernandinho as DMs and Yaya as ACM?) but I dislike it instinctively.  They need to beat Barcelona in this leg to have a chance of winning the tie and should be playing their preferred formation with two strikers and going on the attack.
 
 
 

soxfan121

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Kolarov & Navas wide, with Clichy & Zabaleta behind them. Theoretically, it allows Clichy and Kolarov to really shutdown the left side while leaving Zabaleta a but by himself (Navas is ineffective defensively). Silva behind Negredo and ahead of Fernandinho-Toure
 

DJnVa

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Messi is quiet most of the game, then BOOM, bursts into box, taken down--PK and red card, and makes it 1-0.
 

Bosoxen

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
 
Looked really close to me, surprised there wasn't more talk about that.
 
Either way, the penalty kick/red combination in that situation is such an awful rule.
 
Why? Anything less would allow defenders to wipe out an attacking player with inpunity. Hell, players still sometimes do it knowing the consequences because the odds of a penalty kick being blocked might be slightly higher than defending a wide open breakaway (Luis Suarez in South Africa is a great example of this). The penalty has to be that severe in order to attempt to discourage that type of behavior.
 
With that said, it looks to me like the PK shouldn't have been given. But that's not the point you're trying to make.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Bosoxen said:
Why? Anything less would allow defenders to wipe out an attacking player with inpunity. Hell, players still sometimes do it knowing the consequences because the odds of a penalty kick being blocked might be slightly higher than defending a wide open breakaway (Luis Suarez in South Africa is a great example of this). The penalty has to be that severe in order to attempt to discourage that type of behavior.
 
With that said, it looks to me like the PK shouldn't have been given. But that's not the point you're trying to make.
Because the red card is given for a foul that denies the other team a goal-scoring opportunity yet the penalty kick itself is not just a goal scoring opportunity but a better goal-scoring opportunity than being 1-on-1 with a keeper who can move off his line. The best PK taker on a decent team is going to convert 80-90% of the time, which is more often than even Lionel Messi is going to score when through on goal dribbling full speed with a defender at their heels and a keeper out to cut off the angle.

Basically, the logic is: A foul was committed that denied the team a goal-scoring opportunity, so we'll give them a better goal-scoring opportunity and make them play with 10 men. Its a totally disproportionate sanction for the action and it ruins matches.

You could easily incorporate an exception for hand balls at the goal line if you are worried about Suarez-in-South-Africa situations. That's a fundamentally different scenario as there is no uncertainty that the a goal would be scored without the player handling it.
 

RhaegarTharen

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IIRC (and it's very possible I'm wrong - it's been a long time since I was certified as a referee) - the above were two distinct rule violations.  Denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity by fouling the opposing player and denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball.  Even if I'm correct, I'm not sure that it really matters, but it would help your argument in that you technically might not need an exception. 
 
On the other hand, you're overlooking something basic: you are only smacked with the combo if you commit the offense in the penalty box.  Doing so outside the box only results in a direct free kick (usually, as evidenced above).  Imagine the ref had called the play correctly and given Barca a free kick from just outside the box.  As a Man City defender, wouldn't you rather have to face that scenario than Messi 1v1 with the keeper?  Without the threat of the send off, players would (or should) foul in that scenario every time.  You agree that taking Messi down in such a scenario is quite different than fouling him at the same location in the routine flow of the game? (say when both sides were settled in that area and it was 7v7 or so).  Likewise, imagine the above incident happened 10 feet closer to the goal.  Obvious goal scoring opportunity or not, a foul like that would result in a penalty kick.  Even if both sides are settled in 7v7, that's still a game changing play.  Now, I suppose you could further limit your proposed change such that a send-off only results in the event that a PK is NOT awarded.  I would probably have to think it through more, but I suppose I could see the logic in that.  In the end, though, those rules are also in place to encourage sportsmanship - essentially the notion that while the game is physical and fouls happen, doing so deliberately in a direct attempt to stop an opponent from scoring is in flagrant disregard for the rules of conduct.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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sleepyjose03 said:
IIRC (and it's very possible I'm wrong - it's been a long time since I was certified as a referee) - the above were two distinct rule violations.  Denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity by fouling the opposing player and denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball.  Even if I'm correct, I'm not sure that it really matters, but it would help your argument in that you technically might not need an exception. 
 
On the other hand, you're overlooking something basic: you are only smacked with the combo if you commit the offense in the penalty box.  Doing so outside the box only results in a direct free kick (usually, as evidenced above).  Imagine the ref had called the play correctly and given Barca a free kick from just outside the box.  As a Man City defender, wouldn't you rather have to face that scenario than Messi 1v1 with the keeper?  Without the threat of the send off, players would (or should) foul in that scenario every time.  You agree that taking Messi down in such a scenario is quite different than fouling him at the same location in the routine flow of the game? (say when both sides were settled in that area and it was 7v7 or so).  Likewise, imagine the above incident happened 10 feet closer to the goal.  Obvious goal scoring opportunity or not, a foul like that would result in a penalty kick.  Even if both sides are settled in 7v7, that's still a game changing play.  Now, I suppose you could further limit your proposed change such that a send-off only results in the event that a PK is NOT awarded.  I would probably have to think it through more, but I suppose I could see the logic in that.  In the end, though, those rules are also in place to encourage sportsmanship - essentially the notion that while the game is physical and fouls happen, doing so deliberately in a direct attempt to stop an opponent from scoring is in flagrant disregard for the rules of conduct.
 
That's exactly what I'm supporting.  As far as I know, the rule changes that involved giving red cards in these situations were largely inspired by incidents in which the last defender made professional fouls to prevent breakaways.  I have no problem with the red card there as its clear that a yellow and a direct free kick are not enough to compensate for the lost goal scoring opportunity.  But a penalty kick (plus a yellow if its a bad challenge) is enough to compensate and so the rules should be different in the box IMO.  Basically - a normal foul that happens to occur in this last man type situation should be penalized by one or the other (penalty or red card) but not both.
 

swiftaw

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Morgan said:
 
That's exactly what I'm supporting.  As far as I know, the rule changes that involved giving red cards in these situations were largely inspired by incidents in which the last defender made professional fouls to prevent breakaways.  I have no problem with the red card there as its clear that a yellow and a direct free kick are not enough to compensate for the lost goal scoring opportunity (Arsenal got famously screwed by this in the FA cup final one year).  But a penalty kick (plus a yellow if its a bad challenge) is enough to compensate and so the rules should be different in the box IMO.  Basically - a normal foul that happens to occur in this last man type situation should be penalized by one or the other (penalty or red card) but not both.
I say let the fouled team choose. Last man foul in the box, team can choose a penalty or a red card for the offending player.
 

Bosoxen

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
 
That's exactly what I'm supporting.  As far as I know, the rule changes that involved giving red cards in these situations were largely inspired by incidents in which the last defender made professional fouls to prevent breakaways.  I have no problem with the red card there as its clear that a yellow and a direct free kick are not enough to compensate for the lost goal scoring opportunity.  But a penalty kick (plus a yellow if its a bad challenge) is enough to compensate and so the rules should be different in the box IMO.  Basically - a normal foul that happens to occur in this last man type situation should be penalized by one or the other (penalty or red card) but not both.
 
What you are proposing is in direct conflict with the spirit of the rule (sleepyjose and I both addressed that in our posts). The reason that "combo" is in place is to discourage players from engaging in that sort of behavior. Yes, the penalty is severe but that's the whole point. If you were to lessen the severity of the consequences of such an infraction, you would see the frequency of it drastically increase. I don't know about you, but I think anything that unduly hinders breakaway goal scoring opportunities is a bad thing for the game.
 

Schnerres

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Exactly, penalty+red is hard, but it should be this way. If there is no red card, you will see tackles (from behind) all over the games. Someone remembering the players (no matter which team) argueing "it was no foul! i played the ball!" ?? So what do you think they will do then? Not every tackle is a foul and when they have even less to lose and stay in the match after breaking up a scoring chance with a penalty, they will do it again in the 2nd breakaway with a decent chance to touch the ball/not getting another penalty called.
 
And some arguments are just stupid. How would you let an opponent choose between penalty and red card? At 1st sight, this might seem interesting when you consider an in-game scenario (last-min, draw or early-game?), but the one to decide such things is the ref. And the trouble to follow is you will get an automatic ban of at least one match if you get a red card, so such weird decisions are just not possible in traditional sports like football.
 
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