Bard DFA

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SoxScout

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Bradford: http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/rob-bradford/2013/08/08/daniel-bard-still-banking-helping-these-red-s
 
So, what happened? Let Bard explain:  “I had the abdominal strain. I did it back in April. Pitched through it for about a month or so, tried to pitch through it. Ended up getting an MRI in probably early-June that ended up showing a pretty good tear in there, a pretty good little strain. So that put me on the shelf where I couldn’t pick up a baseball for about three weeks.
 
“After three weeks, I then started tossing again. When the throwing program got a little more aggressive, they sent me down here where I could start getting off the mound and stuff because Portland was getting on a road trip, so it just made live BP’s and stuff easier to do. So, I got down here and I think after four or five days I got off the mound for the first time and threw like 30 pitches. The next day, I started feeling not good again after having gone through three weeks with no symptoms at all. So I thought it might just be some soreness from getting off the mound. I tried to give it a few days – kept throwing, kept playing catch. 
 
“The next bullpen got bumped back a few days and it just wasn’t getting better. So we got another MRI that showed a re-tear, a little bit below the original spot. That put me back on the shelf a little bit. I didn’t pick up a ball for about 10 days, which was up until this weekend. Then I started throwing again Monday.”
Bard realizes that without the health, rediscovering the kind of on-the-field presence that once made him one of the game’s premier set-up men isn’t an option. But if the next 10-14 days does go well, and next week’s scheduled mound-work shows promise, there will still be hope for ’13.
 
It leads to a question Bard doesn’t mind answering: with 46 games remaining in the regular season, does the pitcher believe he can contribute something to the big league team before ‘13 is all said and done?  “Yeah,” he answers without hesitation. “It seems kind of crazy to say right now considering I’ve only thrown the last three days. But, like I said, everything is feeling good and there’s just enough time let to give me two or three weeks to get going again, a couple of outings in the minors. Hopefully they’re still in need of bullpen guys because I feel like I can definitely help. I want to help.
 
“I’ve obviously been keeping track of the team. It looks like they’re having a lot of fun up there. I wouldn’t mind being a part of that at the end of the year.”
 
He's right, he does sound crazy, but hey we can hope... and nice to finally know what the deal is.
 

luckysox

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Doesn't sound crazy to me.  I'd want the same thing.  It's got to be hard as hell to watch this team after last year's epic crash and burn of the team and of his career. Maybe the time off will end up helping him.  I hope it does, for his sake.  He was something to watch when he had it going. 
 

Lose Remerswaal

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He sounds crazy to me.  He's been in denial about his loss of dominance before and I think he's in denial again here.  Sure, maybe this is why he hasn't pitched in so long, but to think he can get it back in time to help this team this year?  Crazy.
 
On the other hand, if this is true, and the injury is all that's between him and success, he's not going to get a raise in Arbitration from the $3 million he cost this year, maybe he'll even agree to a longer term, lower $$ deal in an attempt to stay with the Sox.  But I wouldn't be upset if he's let go.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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Of course he sounds crazy.  It's the nature of human beings, particularly ultra-competitive ones like professional athletes, to say stuff that allows them to get through the day without thinking they suck at what they've devoted their entire lives to.  In that respect, it's also adaptive.
 
And who knows?  Maybe it turns out he's right.
 

mauf

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Of course he sounds crazy. It's the nature of human beings, particularly ultra-competitive ones like professional athletes, to say stuff that allows them to get through the day without thinking they suck at what they've devoted their entire lives to. In that respect, it's also adaptive.

And who knows? Maybe it turns out he's right.


Exactly. I'd be more worried if he said something else.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Lose Remerswaal said:
One inning in florida rookie league: A walk, a single, a wild pitch (or passed ball), one K, no runs.
 
Oh it's only a rehab outing nothing to see here. What's really important is how his tummy feels the next day. <buchholz>
 
 
edit: This was meant as a (bad) joke and not to elicit multiple inbox debates comparing the two pitchers. :)
 

smastroyin

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If Bard hadn't gone to almost completely useless so quickly in 2011, Red Sox recent history might be much different.  Speak all you want about all of the other guys who let the team down, Bard was the high leverage reliever who came into 11 games, gave up runs in 6 of them, and was on the mound when the winning run scored 5 times.  He was brought into 6 games that month in which the Red Sox were ahead in the 8th inning or later and he blew 4 of them.
 
The Red Sox rewarded him with the chance to start, which may have ended his career.
 
Which is to say, I hope he can come back and be useful, but I really doubt it, and as a fan I harbor some hard feelings.
 

dynomite

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Can he hit?
I looked around for this a while back and, at least in HS, the answer was a resounding yes.
 
Bard could do more than just wow onlookers with his heater. Opposing teams often stopped to watch CCS take infield/outfield practice before games, just to see Bard throw to each base from right field. After that they rarely tried to take an extra base. He also led his team in home runs as a senior.
Read more at: http://nesn.com/2011/01/daniel-bard-uses-high-school-domination-as-springboard-to-success/
 
I wonder how much more he's going to have to fail at pitching before the team makes a last ditch effort to save his career as a baseball player by Rick Ankieling him.
 

threecy

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Unless something drastic happens, I can't imagine the Red Sox will hold a spot on the 40 man for him next year?  Is it realistic for him to be non-tendered, then accept a minor league deal with the Red Sox?  Are there other teams out there that would make him a better offer, assuming he's non-tendered?
 

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smastroyin said:
If Bard hadn't gone to almost completely useless so quickly in 2011, Red Sox recent history might be much different.  Speak all you want about all of the other guys who let the team down, Bard was the high leverage reliever who came into 11 games, gave up runs in 6 of them, and was on the mound when the winning run scored 5 times.  He was brought into 6 games that month in which the Red Sox were ahead in the 8th inning or later and he blew 4 of them.
 
The Red Sox rewarded him with the chance to start, which may have ended his career.
 
Which is to say, I hope he can come back and be useful, but I really doubt it, and as a fan I harbor some hard feelings.
Hard feelings towards Bard, Sox management for allowing him to start, or both?
 

dynomite

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threecy said:
Unless something drastic happens, I can't imagine the Red Sox will hold a spot on the 40 man for him next year?  Is it realistic for him to be non-tendered, then accept a minor league deal with the Red Sox?  Are there other teams out there that would make him a better offer, assuming he's non-tendered?
 
There's always some team out there willing to give a talented player another shot.  (Mark freaking Prior is still toiling away in AAA last I checked)
 
I would be shocked if Bard didn't want a fresh start and a change of scenery.
 

SumnerH

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dynomite said:
 
There's always some team out there willing to give a talented player another shot.  (Mark freaking Prior is still toiling away in AAA last I checked)
 
I would be shocked if Bard didn't want a fresh start and a change of scenery.
 I believe that he was released by the Reds on June 28th and hasn't been signed since, and his last game was pitched in April.  Google's not turning up anything contradictory.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Dick Pole Upside said:
I think they'll non-tender him this winter. I believe his Sox career is over.
 
They need to make room on the 40 for Quintin Berry and for Clay Buchholz.
 
I expect he gets DFA'd for one of those two.  Doesn't mean he's done here, but I think current needs outweigh the chances of him turning this around after 2+ years of being unable to contribute positively to this team.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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Lose Remerswaal said:
 
They need to make room on the 40 for Quintin Berry and for Clay Buchholz.
 
I expect he gets DFA'd for one of those two.  Doesn't mean he's done here, but I think current needs outweigh the chances of him turning this around after 2+ years of being unable to contribute positively to this team.
 
 
He's on the 60 day DL - so his spot doesn't count against the 40 man roster
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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BCsMightyJoeYoung said:
 
 
He's on the 60 day DL - so his spot doesn't count against the 40 man roster
 
Bard is not on the 60-day DL.  In fact, he's technically not on the major league DL at all.  So he is still taking a roster spot at the moment.
 

Plympton91

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In order to put him on the 60-day DL, I think they first have to call him up and put him on the major league roster.  He's also not really "hurt" unless they can get him to say he's psychologically not ready to play.  I think they have to bite the bullet and DFA him.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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I had forgotten he was optioned this year. Still - I would think spending 3 months recovering from an abdominal strain qualifies as hurt - he's currently rehabbing.. He must be on a minor league DL of some sort. One would suspect they officially call him up on Sept. 1st and then put him on the 60 day DL - thus freeing up his 40 man roster spot.
 
No idea as to his long term future in the organization though. He's not really expensive to keep around - but its very much a long odds lottery pick at this stage of the game..
 

Kevin Youkulele

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Trotsky said:
Tampa will claim him and turn make him look like his 2010 self again.
At least, if they pick him up, they will not be able to use him in the playoffs this year (not that it was likely he'd be ready in one month anyway).
 

mabrowndog

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I'm sure the entire organization is at a total loss as to what else they can do to help Bard right the ship, but there has to be some reason they didn't (or couldn't) move Hassan to the 60-day DL to clear the roster spot for Berry instead of DFAing Bard. I understand Hassan is on the minor league 7-day DL. It was pointed out in another thread that he'd have to be added to the major league active roster again before being moved to the 60-day DL.
 
But in doing so, they'd also be removing him from the minor league DL, which perhaps would be an implication in the MLBPA's eyes that Hassan is healthy enough to play. So perhaps such a move isn't allowed, or at the very least is frowned upon by the union lest the club face a grievance.
 
Another thought is that the Sox will use the DFA move to see if they can work a trade for Bard, rather than just letting him go on a waiver claim. Should an acceptable return not be forthcoming, maybe they'd pull him back off waivers and then make the Hassan move if it's actually allowed? 
 
Plus the Sox will still have to clear a 40-man spot for Buchholz (reportedly by Sept 10), so maybe they're saving the Hassan move until then. 
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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mabrowndog said:
I'm sure the entire organization is at a total loss as to what else they can do to help Bard right the ship, but there has to be some reason they didn't (or couldn't) move Hassan to the 60-day DL to clear the roster spot for Berry instead of DFAing Bard. I understand Hassan is on the minor league 7-day DL. It was pointed out in another thread that he'd have to be added to the major league active roster again before being moved to the 60-day DL.
 
But in doing so, they'd also be removing him from the minor league DL, which perhaps would be an implication in the MLBPA's eyes that Hassan is healthy enough to play. So perhaps such a move isn't allowed, or at the very least is frowned upon by the union lest the club face a grievance.
 
Another thought is that the Sox will use the DFA move to see if they can work a trade for Bard, rather than just letting him go on a waiver claim. Should an acceptable return not be forthcoming, maybe they'd pull him back off waivers and then make the Hassan move if it's actually allowed? 
 
Plus the Sox will still have to clear a 40-man spot for Buchholz (reportedly by Sept 10), so maybe they're saving the Hassan move until then.
 
I don't think DFA is revocable. They can't un-designate him once he's been designated.  If someone claims him when he is on waivers, he's gone.  If he clears, the team can outright him to a minor league roster (without the player's consent if he has less than 5 years of service time and hasn't been outrighted before).  From what Farrell told reporters today, it sounds like outrighting him is their ideal plan...
 
@ScottLauber: "Farrell on decision to DFA Daniel Bard to open 40-man spot: "Not an easy one." Said he hopes #RedSox will be able to retain Bard"
 
As for Hassan going to the 60-day DL, I don't think there'd be anything wrong with activating him from the minor league DL, calling him up, then placing him on the big league DL.  Since it is after September 1, it's not like they'd have to make a matching roster move to make room.  I can see them activating him, calling him up on say, September 8 (so he's "active" for a game), then 60-day DLing him again on the 10th to make room for Buchholz.  It's not as though he actually has to play in a game to "prove" he's healthy enough to be on the DL nor does he have to demonstrably reinjure himself to be placed on the major league DL.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Glad we're moving on here from Bard. To me this was a no-brainer. Has any player ever returned from losing the ability to throw a baseball accurately? Blass, Sax, Knoblauch, Matt Young, Wohlers, Ankiel, etc

I can't think of one who didn't fade into Bolivia <Tyson>.
 

mabrowndog

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
I don't think DFA is revocable. They can't un-designate him once he's been designated.
 
Yup, you're right. The waiver process is revocable (i.e. they can pull him back if claimed), but he's off the 40-man regardless. Thanks, and my bad.
 

TomRicardo

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Plympton91 said:
In order to put him on the 60-day DL, I think they first have to call him up and put him on the major league roster.  He's also not really "hurt" unless they can get him to say he's psychologically not ready to play.  I think they have to bite the bullet and DFA him.
I don't see the issue with DFAing him. You aren't going to arbitration with him anyway this fall
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
Wait, how does that work? If he's off the 40-man regardless, what would they pull him back to?
 
Trade waivers are revocable.  DFA waivers are not trade waivers.  He can't be pulled back in this scenario.  The only way he stays in the organization is if he clears waivers and they outright him to a minor league roster.
 

mabrowndog

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mabrowndog said:
I'm sure the entire organization is at a total loss as to what else they can do to help Bard right the ship, but there has to be some reason they didn't (or couldn't) move Hassan to the 60-day DL to clear the roster spot for Berry instead of DFAing Bard. I understand Hassan is on the minor league 7-day DL. It was pointed out in another thread that he'd have to be added to the major league active roster again before being moved to the 60-day DL.
 
Turns out Hassan is in tonight's PawSox starting lineup -- a little over 2 weeks after hitting the DL with a broken finger. And he's gone single-walk-single in his first 3 PA.
 
I guess that's reason enough not to move him to the 60-day.
 

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Time to change the thread title to "Bard DFA'd" isn't it? Seems like that's way more relevant than his comments on his ab injury.
 
He would be absolutely no help to anyone for the rest of this season, but other teams would be interested if they could somehow take a cheap flyer on him for next year.
 

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Not sure who gets the credit (Cherington, Valentine, Luchinno, ??) but the idea of moving Bard to the starting rotation is now officially a total disaster.  Very sad. He was one of the top set-up guys in the game. 
 
I seem to remember him having a similar stretch, though likely not as long, when he first got drafted.  Sox moved him to the pen and things fell in place.  Some team will take a shot.  Does he even get past Houston??  Pretty sure Houston is Bard's home town which might be just what he needs to get himself straightened out.  I assume the priority is worst-to-first in league and then worst-to-first out of league which would give Houston first dibs. 
 

mabrowndog

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The Gray Eagle said:
Time to change the thread title to "Bard DFA'd" isn't it? Seems like that's way more relevant than his comments on his ab injury.
 
He would be absolutely no help to anyone for the rest of this season, but other teams would be interested if they could somehow take a cheap flyer on him for next year.
 
If anyone claims him off waivers and keeps him on the 40-man over the winter, it won't be a "cheap flyer." He'll be 3rd-year arb eligible, and even the shittiest of players get raises so he'd be due to make around $2 million.
 

Section15Box113

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Not sure who gets the credit (Cherington, Valentine, Luchinno, ??) but the idea of moving Bard to the starting rotation is now officially a total disaster. Very sad. He was one of the top set-up guys in the game.


One of the top set-up guys who, if you recall, started to struggle late in 2011 - before his switch to a starter.

Can't just point to BC, BV, LL, whomever and say the blame lies with the guy that prompted the switch. He was already going south.
 

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Green Monster said:
Not sure who gets the credit (Cherington, Valentine, Luchinno, ??) but the idea of moving Bard to the starting rotation is now officially a total disaster.  Very sad. He was one of the top set-up guys in the game. 
 
Some team will take a shot.  Does he even get past Houston??  I assume the priority is worst-to-first in league and then worst-to-first out of league?
 
Whatever went wrong with Bard seems to have started in September of 2011.  I'm not sure making him a starter was necessarily a major factor in his decline.  In September of the year that shall not be named, he posted an xFIP of 5.01 and a 7.36 BB/9.  He had a 4.20 K/BB rate coming into that month, and then went 1.22 from there on out.  He also saw his average velocity drop down to the lowest point of his career (though still above 95).
 

 
He was stellar in August of that year, posting a 1.60 xFIP.  He just fell of a cliff when the calendar turned.  He couldn't hit the zone anymore, and he never figured out how to do it again.  Whatever it was, it happened before 2012 ever rolled around.  Maybe making him a starter sped up his decline into someone the club was okay with DFA'ing, but I don't think it was part of or the entire catalyst.
 

soxhop411

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Section15Box113 said:
One of the top set-up guys who, if you recall, started to struggle late in 2011 - before his switch to a starter.

Can't just point to BC, BV, LL, whomever and say the blame lies with the guy that prompted the switch. He was already going south.
I thought Bard went to the FO and asked to start and the FO said OK?
 

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Farrell referred today to Bard's mechanics and confidence as both being issues.  I can't help but wonder if he was an accident waiting to happen even if the conversion to starter hadn't happened.
 

Green Monster

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In September of the year that shall not be named, he posted an xFIP of 5.01 and a 7.36 BB/9.  He had a 4.20 K/BB rate coming into that month, and then went 1.22 from there on out.  He also saw his average velocity drop down to the lowest point of his career (though still above 95).
 
 
I guess that makes the decision to move him to the rotation that much worse........You make a valid point, that the move to the pen might not have caused the issue, but it certainly didn't help.  Fact of the matter is both Aceves and Bard were negatively effected by the same decision.
 

Van Everyman

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One of the top set-up guys who, if you recall, started to struggle late in 2011 - before his switch to a starter.

Can't just point to BC, BV, LL, whomever and say the blame lies with the guy that prompted the switch. He was already going south.

Except the whole team fell to shit that month.

I'm not blaming Bobby per se, but the whole "coaching staff not on speaking terms with the manager" thing last year probably didn't help matters with guys like Bard who likely needed a little special attention.
 

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Green Monster said:
 
I guess that makes the decision to move him to the rotation that much worse........You make a valid point, that the move to the pen might not have caused the issue, but it certainly didn't help.  Fact of the matter is both Aceves and Bard were negatively effected by the same decision.
 
Or both were relievers who weren't going to maintain their level of success going forward no matter what role they had.  Aceves, for instance, sucked as a reliever when he was moved to closer.  Trying him as a starter was done well after he started sucking.
 
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