BB to Butler: Get a Clue

Ed Hillel

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I want to say it's an overreaction by Belichick, but if you're a fringe guy fighting for a starting gig, why are you taking a flight so close to OTA that, if delayed, would cause you to be late?
 

E5 Yaz

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Ed Hillel said:
I want to say it's an overreaction by Belichick, but if you're a fringe guy fighting for a starting gig, why are you taking a flight so close to OTA that, if delayed, would cause you to be late?
 
But to be held out three weeks for that offense?
 

Caspir

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It's always good to have dick measuring contests by sitting a guy out for 3 weeks over a missed flight when your defensive backfield is a bunch of fuck sticks and nobodies. And the flight was missed due to weather, not because he was hammered banging some groupie in the airport bathroom. Seems like a ridiculous overreaction.
 

Corsi

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Patriots cornerback Malcolm Butler has learned a hard lesson about life in the NFL.
 
Butler was late for the first practice of organized team activities May 18 because he missed a flight on the way to Boston due to weather issues, and he was held off the practice field for three weeks, according to a team source. Butler is supposed to be back on the field this week as the Patriots wrap up their OTAs at Gillette Stadium and head into next week's minicamp.
 
It's a hard disciplinary measure for the second-year cornerback and Super Bowl hero, who did reach out to the team to let them know of his canceled flight, but players are often advised to travel early enough to avoid weather-related delays. Still, the three-week ban is longer than any known related incidents for past players, especially during a voluntary workout program.
 
Butler, whose interception sealed the Patriots' victory against the Seahawks in Super Bowl XLIX, has still been at Gillette every day during OTAs, attending all meetings, film sessions and weight room workouts. He has only been kept off the practice field.
 
The reason for Butler's absences during the two open workouts had been unknown until this development. It's believed Butler will be present tomorrow when the media returns to watch practice.
 
The team source said Butler was very disappointed to be held out of practice, but he treated it as a lesson learned and has brought the right attitude to Gillette on a daily basis. Upon returning to the field, Butler will compete with Logan Ryan and Bradley Fletcher for the top jobs at cornerback. Robert McClain, Jordan Richards, Dax Swanson and Justin Green are also in the mix for playing time.
 
Now that Butler is ready to return, the competition will intensify at one of the most focal positions on the roster.
 
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/the_blitz/2015/06/team_source_malcolm_butler_held_out_of_three_weeks_of_practice
 

Stitch01

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This is the kind of situation where its super hard for me to second guess BB based on public information. 
 
Maybe its a massive overreaction.  Maybe BB saw some slippage in work ethic or focus for the player or the team post Super Bowl and decided this was what needed to be done to avoid problems later.  No clue how to judge that from the outside and his track record is pretty good.
 

Ed Hillel

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Caspir said:
It's always good to have dick measuring contests by sitting a guy out for 3 weeks over a missed flight when your defensive backfield is a bunch of fuck sticks and nobodies. And the flight was missed due to weather, not because he was hammered banging some groupie in the airport bathroom. Seems like a ridiculous overreaction.
 
There's 3 months to the beginning of the season. If Butler can't get ready in that time, he's not going to be helping the team anyway. As for the weather excuse, it's a bad one. He should have been getting to Boston at least a few days before. This is nothing new with Belichick, and his teams do ok, so I'm not going to start questioning it.
 

nattysez

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Butler, whose interception sealed the Patriots' victory against the Seahawks in Super Bowl XLIX, has still been at Gillette every day during OTAs, attending all meetings, film sessions and weight room workouts. He has only been kept off the practice field.
 
 
Seems like a good (or at least typical) move by BB -- sends a message to Butler and the team about no one getting special treatment while Butler gets to rest after a hectic off-season without losing too much in terms of getting in shape and learning any new wrinkles on D.
 

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“@cpriceNFL: Important distinction. MT @pedroiar: @cpriceNFL He’s been there for meetings, film & gym workouts. Think ppl are blowing out of proportion”
 

NickEsasky

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Seems like it's a type of thing that will ultimately hurt the team. Butler is not a finished product and likely needs all the reps he can get. Keeping him off the field for three weeks while you install new schemes and plays seems kind of dumb. Send a message, sure, but this seems excessive. 
 

lexrageorge

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NickEsasky said:
Seems like it's a type of thing that will ultimately hurt the team. Butler is not a finished product and likely needs all the reps he can get. Keeping him off the field for three weeks while you install new schemes and plays seems kind of dumb. Send a message, sure, but this seems excessive. 
I'm not sure they are doing a lot of schemes and plays at this point.  It's not like he's missing 3 weeks of training camp practices in August.  Sure, he's missing some reps, so it's not nothing.  But I have trouble believing Belichick decided that he was going to deliberately hurt the team just to prove a point to Malcolm Butler.  
 

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I don't believe the report regarding the 3 week benching. Parts of it are believable, missing the flight, him in the building, etc., but I'm not buying he was grounded from practicing for 3 weeks. Bill sends messages by sending players home, making them retake the running test, etc., but 3 weeks sounds out of character. 
 

nattysez

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Good take by Reiss.
 
Not having Butler on the field for at the least the first two weeks of OTAs is not good for his football development. He needs every bit of practice time possible if he is to elevate to the starter-level player that several of his teammates believe he can be, and given all the change the Patriots are undergoing at the position, they need him to deliver on that promise in 2015.
Belichick knows this, but he also knows that two weeks of an OTA is not an overwhelming sacrifice to send a decisive message to a player who has flashed potential -- but who has had to quickly learn how to handle stardom -- to be a longer-term answer at the position. That Butler is disappointed in himself, as the Herald reports, is exactly what Belichick wants.
 
 
Meanwhile, from Breer:
 
Safe to assume the NFLPA is looking into the Malcolm Butler situation. CBA terms in play here.
 
 
I'm fascinated by the logical puzzle of how telling a guy he can't attend voluntary camp for a two weeks is an indication the camp was not voluntary. 
 

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nattysez said:
<p>Good take by Reiss.
 
 
Meanwhile
link to tweet, from Breer:
 
 
I'm fascinated by the logical puzzle of how telling a guy he can't attend voluntary camp for a two weeks is an indication the camp was not voluntary. 
Reiss is way too smart to even pretend that he has a superior handle on what may be be a very dicey situation at CB, or that the medicine was not warranted by the transgression. Some people are not.

The fact that these workouts are voluntary does not diminish any theoretical claim Butler may have. Their voluntary nature does not prevent players from attending them, obviously, and attending them presents an opportunity for improvement, which could impact downstream playing time and earnings. Not that I think Butler would support any action here.

Interesting question to me is whether there were other instances we don't know about. If the answer is no, there may be a circumstantial case that BB's fuse for this stuff may be getting shorter. See also Jonas Gray. There is a sample size issue, and the fact that we may not know all the relevant factors. But it could -- could -- also be: "I'm not taking this anymore. Even in small doses, and even when there may be a plausible explanation."
 

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Could be that some players warrant a long leash and some players dont (yet).
 
We are as guilty as anyone of making Butler (and Gray) the Next Great Patriots.  Maybe BB sees them for what they are ....ok players with some potential....but certainly not irreplaceable.
 
So he slams them to send a message.  He sees it as losing 2 fringey or slightly better players (who have shown glimpses...) and with Butler not even when it really matters...
We see it as "OMG!" or at the least "excessive".
 
I am willing to take the "in BB we trust" stance on this one.
Hell he probably looked into his Crystal football and saw that Butler would tear up a knee if he played before June 10th and nipped the problem ahead of time  :)
 

Caspir

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Ed Hillel said:
 
There's 3 months to the beginning of the season. If Butler can't get ready in that time, he's not going to be helping the team anyway. As for the weather excuse, it's a bad one. He should have been getting to Boston at least a few days before. This is nothing new with Belichick, and his teams do ok, so I'm not going to start questioning it.
Yea, I overreacted to the initial news, bit this just seems like giving a guy a month in jail for jaywalking. Some of it might be an ego check on the SB hero, and yea, if you're an NFL player looking to make a career for yourself, leave a day early. I'm a bit concerned about the defensive backfield, just like the rest of us, so I let it color my views, but it does seem excessive.
 

Tony C

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My first reaction, too, is that BB is entering the "get off my lawn" Tom Coughlin part of his career. But same evolution as you, in short:
 
nattysez said:
 
Seems like a good (or at least typical) move by BB -- sends a message to Butler and the team about no one getting special treatment while Butler gets to rest after a hectic off-season without losing too much in terms of getting in shape and learning any new wrinkles on D.
 
That's probably right. Dramatic message sent to Butler and the whole team with really minimal cost.
 

dcmissle

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That Gran Torino reference is priceless. BB as Clint. Thank you.

Edit -- PFT.com links to this story and it has close to 140 comments as now. This was my favorite:


"The only franchise to behave like this

AND

The most successful franchise of the modern era.

Color me jealous -- colts fan"
 

LoneWarrior1

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bakahump said:
I am willing to take the "in BB we trust" stance on this one.
Hell he probably looked into his Crystal football and saw that Butler would tear up a knee if he played before June 10th and nipped the problem ahead of time  :)
 
I was thinking about the "In BB we trust" angle. The irony, for me, is if not for Butler's interception that mantra might have carried a lot less weight. 
 
I'm with Caspir in that this seems like the punishment exceeds the crime, especially since it's due to a weather related issue. My guess is that there's more to this story than what Howe was fed and this excuse allows the story to move quickly out of the news cycle.
 

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dcmissle said:
That Gran Torino reference is priceless. BB as Clint. Thank you.

Edit -- PFT.com links to this story and it has close to 140 comments as now. This was my favorite:


"The only franchise to behave like this

AND

The most successful franchise of the modern era.

Color me jealous -- colts fan"
I see him more as Stannis. Surprised he didn't cut off Ridley's fingers for fumbling.
 

lexrageorge

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It was reported that Butler missed 6 of the 10 on-field sessions of the OTA's.  He's still expected to be a full participant in next week's mini-camp and in training camp.  Butler still attended all team meetings, etc.  Would the 6 on field sessions have benefited Butler?  I'm quite sure the answer is yes.  Is Butler's development crippled by his missing those sessions?  If it is, then Butler is not the player we thought he was.  Can the NFLPA do anything?  Unless Butler was fined in some way, no.  There's nothing more to see here, unless you really believe Belichick woke up one morning and asked himself "How can I hurt my team today...".  
 

TheoShmeo

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It's hard to argue with BB's methods.  They work.  But the one thing last year that bothered me was the extent to which Jonas Gray was punished for his transgressions in the week after his Indy explosion.  Whether it was for being late or his twitter comments or both, he was seemingly in the doghouse for the rest of the season.
 
This reaction to Butler seems along the same lines.  It's not as if having his flight grounded was a choice.
 
From the outside, it looks like Bill is being a bit draconian here, just as he was with Gray.
 
And then I remember that I am on the outside and that Bill is only the best HC/GM/Grand PooBah in professional sports.
 

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TheoShmeo said:
It's hard to argue with BB's methods.  They work.  But the one thing last year that bothered me was the extent to which Jonas Gray was punished for his transgressions in the week after his Indy explosion.  Whether it was for being late or his twitter comments or both, he was seemingly in the doghouse for the rest of the season.
 
This reaction to Butler seems along the same lines.  It's not as if having his flight grounded was a choice.
 
From the outside, it looks like Bill is being a bit draconian here, just as he was with Gray.
 
And then I remember that I am on the outside and that Bill is only the best HC/GM/Grand PooBah in professional sports.
 
I disagree with how he handled the Gray situation, in that Blount really did some in and steal the role. His first game, when Gray was benched, Blount had 12 carries for 78 against Detroit, with 2 TDs. Followed that with 10 for 58 in the loss at GB. At that point he was the guy. There were only so many big back carries to go around, and Blount was a more trusted veteran. I don't think BB was overly harsh at all, and I don't really think he put Gray in the doghouse so much as Blount just earned the carries.
 
Edit: and let's not forget, in the Miami game where Blount was totally ineffective (8 for 17), Gray got the nod and had 11 carries for 62. So he wasn't just benched the rest of the year.
 

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I read this and immediately wondered if Butler had picked up a very mild knock at some point, so the Pats both sent a message and protected him from injury a bit.
 
But obviously I don't have any idea. If he's not hurt the punishment seems overly harsh to me.
 

TheoShmeo

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tims4wins said:
 
I disagree with how he handled the Gray situation, in that Blount really did some in and steal the role. His first game, when Gray was benched, Blount had 12 carries for 78 against Detroit, with 2 TDs. Followed that with 10 for 58 in the loss at GB. At that point he was the guy. There were only so many big back carries to go around, and Blount was a more trusted veteran. I don't think BB was overly harsh at all, and I don't really think he put Gray in the doghouse so much as Blount just earned the carries.
 
Edit: and let's not forget, in the Miami game where Blount was totally ineffective (8 for 17), Gray got the nod and had 11 carries for 62. So he wasn't just benched the rest of the year.
It's hard for me not to give Bill a lot of deference given his track record.  So whatever "criticism" I am levying is within that backdrop.
 
But I thought the benching itself was a little harsh and while Blount was doing fine, I thought then and still think that Gray very well could have more upside.  There's also the matter with which Blount left Pittsburgh and it seemed kind of odd to exalt a guy who walks off the field during a game over a promising young player who was late for practice by a bit.
 
And in the Miami game, who wasn't screaming for Bill to make that change given how ineffective Blount had been?  It was almost as if Bill was forced into it. 
 
I totally get it.  A good case could be made for going with Blount independently given the small sample size with Gray and Blount's status as a trusted, been there/done that veteran.
 
But if a coach I had less respect for did exactly what Bill did with Gray and Blount, I would have been much more pissed off.  Not that anyone other than those who have to hear me whine would care!
 
Agreed with SJH on Butler but again, Bill does a lot of counter-intuitive things that end up working.
 
Like having a no name secondary and no one obvious to replace Vereen, but I digress.
 

dcmissle

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Jason Reid, who had the misfortune of covering the Washington football team as a beat writer, but now hosts a morning radio show, on the subject:
 
"Four Super Bowl titles, and all they do is win, win, win ..."
 
None of this should be controversial.  It's not Neanderthal, and it's not personal.  If you are accountable on the small matters, you are more likely to trustworthy on the bigger matters.  You know when the team activity starts, and you know you're courting trouble when you book yourself on the last flight out of town.
 
M

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I have a hard time believing that something that small, at a time of year that unimportant, resulted in a benching that long.  There must have been something else - something we may never know about, sure, but probably something.  BB can be a hardass, and he's earned the right to be, but I think that would be a step too far for just having your flight cancelled.
 
Although saying "I'm sticking up for Belichick, right or wrong" is a bit like saying "I'm sticking up for my mother, drunk or sober".  The guy can make mistakes.  His history suggests he makes them far less often than his peers, but he's still fallible.
 

DJnVa

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Although saying "I'm sticking up for Belichick, right or wrong" is a bit like saying "I'm sticking up for my mother, drunk or sober".  
 
 
To be fair, your mother is much more fun drunk.
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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DrewDawg said:
To be fair, your mother is much more fun drunk.
 
So you're agreeing that it makes a big difference whether she's drunk or sober?
 
:banana:  
 

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nattysez said:
 
I'm fascinated by the logical puzzle of how telling a guy he can't attend voluntary camp for a two weeks is an indication the camp was not voluntary. 
 
I guess it's all in how you define voluntary.  I think the Patriots would be easily justified in saying that this is voluntary as far as you are 100% In or you are 100% Out.  But if you are 100% In, then all the normal rules apply.  That seems like a reasonable position to take where the Patriots retain the level of control they demand but the ultimate choice is still up to the player.  I doubt the CBA Rules spell out what Voluntary means to this level of detail.  Unfortunately that is exactly where the Patriots usually get fucked for making a reasonable and defensible interpretation of a poorly written rule.
 
And there must be more to the story if it was a three weeks.  I can image something like the end of the Breakfast Club:
Coach:  Malcolm you were late, you have to sit two days.
MB: That's crazy, it's not my fault.
Coach: Don't talk back, you are sitting a whole week now
MB:  Coach you are insane
Coach:  Make it two weeks!
MB: Fuck you!
Coach:  That's three weeks, want to make it four?
MB: *grumble* walk away
 

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I don't know how many Super Bowls BFB is going to have to win before people trust his methods, but apparently "four" is not the correct answer.
 

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The Butler thing doesn't surprise me at all.  Most reports are missing the context, if you ask me: he was late for an OTA day on May 18th, which was a Monday, and since all reports are that he has been at all voluntary work, that means he had been in Foxboro working out the week before (and for a few weeks before that).  Breaking that down a little more, he went out of town for the weekend, knowing he had an OTA day on Monday.  For a guy in his second year, who had as "busy" an off-season as Butler had, running out of town for a weekend with a Monday OTA day was a bad call.  And I'll go even further: voluntary workout days are short - half day short.  OTA days are long - they are there first thing in the morning and are working all day.  Planning to fly back the day before the first OTA day was a really bad call.
 

TheoShmeo

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Terrific insight, Otto.  Makes this whole thing much more understandable.
 
And Jimbo, I understand your reaction but at the same time, there's wondering about something that seems inexplicable on its face (without the benefit of a post like Otto's) and there's being super critical of Bill.  I think most people here were just sort of scratching their heads at something that looks, from the outside, kind of harsh.
 

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TheoShmeo said:
Terrific insight, Otto.  Makes this whole thing much more understandable.
 
And Jimbo, I understand your reaction but at the same time, there's wondering about something that seems inexplicable on its face (without the benefit of a post like Otto's) and there's being super critical of Bill.  I think most people here were just sort of scratching their heads at something that looks, from the outside, kind of harsh.
 
Why is it inexplicable? BB is clearly sending a message to a player and to the team, and to judge if the punishment is too much, too little, or just right you'd need to know (for starters) a lot more about what standards have been set for Butler and the team and whether Butler or the team have been living up to them.
 
This is why people should generally trust BFB.  Not only is he incredibly good at his job but he has reams of information that we simply don't have. 
 

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Otto said:
The Butler thing doesn't surprise me at all.  Most reports are missing the context, if you ask me: he was late for an OTA day on May 18th, which was a Monday, and since all reports are that he has been at all voluntary work, that means he had been in Foxboro working out the week before (and for a few weeks before that).  Breaking that down a little more, he went out of town for the weekend, knowing he had an OTA day on Monday.  For a guy in his second year, who had as "busy" an off-season as Butler had, running out of town for a weekend with a Monday OTA day was a bad call.  And I'll go even further: voluntary workout days are short - half day short.  OTA days are long - they are there first thing in the morning and are working all day.  Planning to fly back the day before the first OTA day was a really bad call.
 
Oh like you're some sort of expert now....oh wait. :lol:
 
 
 
 
 
Thanks for the insight Otto. EVERYONE READ THIS.
 

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Shelterdog said:
 
Why is it inexplicable? BB is clearly sending a message to a player and to the team, and to judge if the punishment is too much, too little, or just right you'd need to know (for starters) a lot more about what standards have been set for Butler and the team and whether Butler or the team have been living up to them.
 
This is why people should generally trust BFB.  Not only is he incredibly good at his job but he has reams of information that we simply don't have. 
 
2nd year CB with a lot more high-profile off-season than he's ever been accustomed to? Who (thanks Otto) definitely made a bad professional decision during OTA's and was likely to get disciplined regardless? Story checks out, doesn't it?
 
Belichick wants to keep Butler and his team honest and focused. Remind them that the SB is history. Maybe caution Butler that just because Revis and Browner are gone and there's a lot of new guys auditioning doesn't mean Butler's guaranteed PT in the secondary in 2016. Which is an illustrated, high profile, teachable moment to the entire roster. 
 
It reminds me of Han Solo telling Luke "don't get cocky" when they're shooting down TIE fighters in Star Wars. I'm fairly sure that BB wouldn't stunt the growth of a player purposely out of spite, or "dick measuring." 
 

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Trlicek's Whip said:
 
2nd year CB with a lot more high-profile off-season than he's ever been accustomed to? Who (thanks Otto) definitely made a bad professional decision during OTA's and was likely to get disciplined regardless? Story checks out, doesn't it?
 
Belichick wants to keep Butler and his team honest and focused. Remind them that the SB is history. Maybe caution Butler that just because Revis and Browner are gone and there's a lot of new guys auditioning doesn't mean Butler's guaranteed PT in the secondary in 2016. Which is an illustrated, high profile, teachable moment to the entire roster. 
 
It reminds me of Han Solo telling Luke "don't get cocky" when they're shooting down TIE fighters in Star Wars. I'm fairly sure that BB wouldn't stunt the growth of a player purposely out of spite, or "dick measuring." 
Is it a  mortal lock that BB has said something like "Can I tell you about an awesome young running back I coached against in the 80s? Tim Smith.  Fast kid from the middle of nowhere, stayed at the end of the bench his whole rookie year, blew up in the superbowl, had like 200 yards rushing, went to Disneyworld just like you.  Ever hear of him? No, didn't think so BECAUSE HE WAS OUT OF THE LEAGUE A YEAR LATER."
 

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OK, it can be splicked, you are right, shelterdog.
 
I meant that it's not immediately clear why BB would react as harshly as he seemingly did, and I overstated my point there.  The points about message sending, etc. are well taken.
 
Carry on. 
 
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I apologize for having no links on this, but re Jonas Gray, I recall hearing rumblings (mostly on PFW) that suggested there may have been more issues with Gray besides alarm clock-gate, which may explain a punishment that seemed a bit more unforgiving than we could justify from an outside POV.
 

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Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
I apologize for having no links on this, but re Jonas Gray, I recall hearing rumblings (mostly on PFW) that suggested there may have been more issues with Gray besides alarm clock-gate, which may explain a punishment that seemed a bit more unforgiving than we could justify from an outside POV.
 
I agree. I'm also sorry you have no links to these rumblings.
 
I'm also sorry you decided to post it anyway
 

yeahlunchbox

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Otto said:
The Butler thing doesn't surprise me at all.  Most reports are missing the context, if you ask me: he was late for an OTA day on May 18th, which was a Monday, and since all reports are that he has been at all voluntary work, that means he had been in Foxboro working out the week before (and for a few weeks before that).  Breaking that down a little more, he went out of town for the weekend, knowing he had an OTA day on Monday.  For a guy in his second year, who had as "busy" an off-season as Butler had, running out of town for a weekend with a Monday OTA day was a bad call.  And I'll go even further: voluntary workout days are short - half day short.  OTA days are long - they are there first thing in the morning and are working all day.  Planning to fly back the day before the first OTA day was a really bad call.
 
This certainly sounds reasonable. That said, doesn't the Players Association need to fight this, not even for Butler, but to show leading up to the next CBA that voluntary might not really mean voluntary the way everyone thinks and use that to extract concessions at the table?