Best Positional Groups Under BB

[SMU_Sox]

I was looking at OL groups across the league last night and was thinking that the Patriots have one of the best OL groups yet again. It got me thinking which have been the best positional groups in BB history here in NE. As @Euclis20 astutely pointed out the Patriots have had one of the best all-around special teams units in the league since Bill got here. For the purposes of this discussion I want to limit it to purely offensive and defensive positional groups. To organize it I want to lump them into units where some units will have more than 1 position and others will just have 1.

When considering this I want to focus on the starters and not necessarily the depth but good depth counts too and if two positions are relatively equal the one with the consistently better depth should win out.

Here are the position groups:

Defense:
Because BB used both the 4-3 and 3-4 base here in New England we have to mash some of these units together.
Interior Defensive Line: These are guys who primarily line up between the tackles and/or who played the 5-tech position when BB was doing his traditional 3-4 alignment. 3-4 defensive ends, 3-techs, NTs or guys who played 0-1 tech, etc.
Edge/OLB: 4-3 edges like Chandler Jones or Trey Flowers along with OLBs like Mike Vrabel. There will be some overlap for guys who played OLB and ILB as well as guys who played edge but then kicked inside to IDL for some snaps (usually on passing downs)
Inside Linebacker: Mayo, Hightower, etc. There are plenty of guys who played both ILB and OLB for Bill so there will be some overlap.
Safety: Includes all 3 types of safeties: deep, box/LB, and nickel/slot.
Corner: Ty Law, Asante Samuel, Gilmore, etc.

Offense:
QB: Cam Newton, Matt Cassel, Jimmy G... oh yeah and the GOAT.
RB: Dillon, Blount, White, Foulke, Ridley
TE/FB: Lumping the fullbacks like Develin in with the tight end group as they typically are with most teams. If you all want to put the FBs with the RBs that is fine we can adjust. Gronk, Hernandez, Watson, etc.
Wide Receivers: I thought about breaking this unit into outside guys and inside guys (primarily) but that's too specific for a unit. Patriots have had some damn good slots over the years: Troy Brown, Wes Welker, Jules. Branch and Moss are also in the discussion for the room.
Offensive Line: There are two ways to handle this. We could split OL into OTs and IOL or keep it at just OL. I tend to favor keeping them together as one big unit but if you all want to split them up that's fine.
For clarity on each position in the line though...
OT: Light, Vollmer, Cannon, Solder
OG: Mankins, Thuney, Mason, etc.
OC: Koppen, Connolly, Andrews, etc.

This is a subjective exercise but generally I would look at the all-pros and pro-bowls in the units as well as how long the unit was good or dominant for. For example offensive line (unless gutted by injury) was usually a top 10 unit in the league or at least highly respected by those that discuss OL play over the years.

I will try to write up one unit per day for the next 2 weeks and make the case for their good and bad but others are absolutely welcome to. When we have each grouped fleshed out we can figure out what to do next - having a bracket and polls would seem to be the easiest way to do it.

Have at it - if you want to change the way this is organized or have other ideas they are absolutely welcome.

Quick Edit: Pat Lane did a best of the Patriots which I encourage everyone to read. Pat is a great guy and a fantastic writer for Pats Pulpit.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

QB

Corner
TE (also arguably the GOAT)
Safety
Inside LB
Offensive tackle
Interior DL
Outside LB
Offensive Guard
Center



This is like picking between my children. I'd feel comfortable with probably half of those (other than QB) being on top or in any order.

Edit: And FTR, if I was picking between my actual children, my dog wins in a landslide over the humans.

 

[mwonow]

To the question/aside about FBs - I don't think it matters that much, but I've always viewed the Pats FBs as part of the RB group, even if in roster terms, they're competing for roster spots more with the bottom of the TE depth chart than the RB roster (and fwiw, it seems like the lowest-rung RBs are competing with STers from other positions, like LB and safety, for their roster spots).

 

[Ale Xander]

1. QB1 (GOAT)

2. K (GOAT)
3. TE (GOAT)
4. CB

4.5 3rd down RB

5. Gunner/ST Captain
6. OT
7. S


8. ILB
9. C
10. P
11. DT
12. OLB
13. OG

14. 1st and 2nd down RB
15. DE



16. WR

 

[Euclis20]

A couple of CB mentions, but while this was an excellent and deep group in the early to mid 2000s and in the late 2010s, it was near the bottom of the league in the early 2010s. The complete failure to put up a competent CB group from 2010-2013 (outside of Talib) really killed a couple of historically great offensive teams (Pats were 1st, 3rd, 1st and 4th in offensive DVOA those years).

 

[Super Nomario]

Surprised so many people are putting OG low. I think the guards have probably been better than the tackles. Mankins was a great player for a decade. Thuney and Mason have been an excellent tandem. Mostly otherwise they've been solid but not spectacular.

 

[tims4wins]

Surprised so many people are putting OG low. I think the guards have probably been better than the tackles. Mankins was a great player for a decade. Thuney and Mason have been an excellent tandem. Mostly otherwise they've been solid but not spectacular.

Yeah and starting with Andruzzi and Compton, that position group has almost never been even mediocre. Above average at worst, every single year.

 

[Mooch]

A couple of CB mentions, but while this was an excellent and deep group in the early to mid 2000s and in the late 2010s, it was near the bottom of the league in the early 2010s. The complete failure to put up a competent CB group from 2010-2013 (outside of Talib) really killed a couple of historically great offensive teams (Pats were 1st, 3rd, 1st and 4th in offensive DVOA those years).

During the Belichick era, CBs have racked up 5 first team all-pro seasons (Law, Gilmore x2, Samuel, Revis) and 10 pro-bowls (adding Talib and McCourty's 2010 when he played corner)

We've had a great run of #1 CBs over the past 20 years.

 

[dcdrew10]

During the Belichick era, CBs have racked up 5 first team all-pro seasons (Law, Gilmore x2, Samuel, Revis) and 10 pro-bowls (adding Talib and McCourty's 2010 when he played corner)

We've had a great run of #1 CBs over the past 20 years.

Not to mention 2016 second team all-pro Malcolm Butler and Logan Ryan, who was never an all-pro or pro-bowler, but a lot more than just some JAG/depth DB.

I might still have to go with OG. Mankins, Waters, Thuney, Mason, and not to break out the anointing oils, but the potential of Onwenu. Guard has not been a weakness at any point in the last 20 years.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

Not to mention 2016 second team all-pro Malcolm Butler and Logan Ryan, who was never an all-pro or pro-bowler, but a lot more than just some JAG/depth DB.

I might still have to go with OG. Mankins, Waters, Thuney, Mason, and the potential of Onewnu. Guard has not been a weakness at any point in the last 20 years.

Except for maybe 2 large games. /ducking

 

[Super Nomario]

I might still have to go with OG. Mankins, Waters, Thuney, Mason, and not to break out the anointing oils, but the potential of Onwenu. Guard has not been a weakness at any point in the last 20 years.

I'm glad you've been able to block out The Jordan Devey Experience. Other than 2014, and maybe a couple other injury patches, you're probably right.

 

[worm0082]

He had Armstrong for his last season didnt he? I always thought the team retired his number cause he missed the 01 super bowl by a year.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Guard definitely needs to be way up there.

For TE, I think that we're letting one fantastic player skew the results too high.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Center, part of IOL, is not going to win. Koppen made the only pro bowl of the lot in 2007 but for 20 years it has been more or less uninterrupted with Koppen, Connolly, and then eventually Andrews (2015 not withstanding). While Andrews hasn’t made a pro bowl he is universally regarded as one of the better centers in the league. It’s tough to evaluate center play but the Patriots have had good solid B+/A- production for years especially in pass pro. They are best in pass protection and getting to the 2nd level making crucial run blocks. Bill has favored smaller more athletic guys and it shows. Aside from some weakness to huge DTs solo against power in pass pro (Andrews has been moved before when bigger guys get him 1:1) it’s been an effective strategy.

The Patriots are a gap/power team but run everything. They generally have a balance of 55/45 gap/zone and in some years it’s closer to 50/50 (thanks SIS). So when the Patriots draft guys they need more than just the maulers who traditionally do well in gap power. They need their lineman to be athletic in space too. While Center isn’t going to win for their best positional group it has been solid/good for a long time. A-gap pressure is kryptonite to any QB and they have largely prevented that.

 

[SMU_Sox]

WR is tricky because while the Patriots have had a history of excellent production from the slot they have not always had consistently great guys outside minus Moss and Branch. Troy Brown had a pro bowl in 2001, Welker had 2 all pros and 5 pro bowls here. Edelman was a one time pro bowl alternate but was in the SB so it technically doesn’t show up on his record. Still that’s 6/7 pro bow season, 2 all pros, and a very good Jules to represent them the last 20 years in the slot. Newcomer Jakobi Meyers looks solid there too. Outside has been a different story. The only pro bow outside receiver who was also a first team all pro was Moss in 2007. They’ve had solid guys like LaFell and Hogan but have gotten by with average talent there usually. It’s not a position Bull has invested in. Overall I think WR has been a mixed bag because of the lack of consistent outside top 1/3 of the league talent but always having a top talent slot. It’s just not going to rank highly either even with the shoutout and regard for their slots over the years.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Guard definitely needs to be way up there.

For TE, I think that we're letting one fantastic player skew the results too high.

Logan Mankins is in my top 5 Patriots of all time and IMO is very close to being a HOFer. Mankins was a six time pro bower here and one time first team all pro. He’s also on the NFL all decade team 2010s at guard which is usually a sign that a HOF spot is reserved for you.

Thuney and Mason never made a pro bowl or an all pro but are considered top 10-15 players perennially at there position with many considering Thuney a top 3-4 guard in 2019 and 2020.

Early 2000s Andruzzi and Neal were solid but with addition of Mankins OG was a powerhouse for the Patriots for almost 15 years now. Winters had a pro bowl year in 2011. And since Thuney and Mason took over in 2016 they have been a top 5 interior tandem in the NFL.

I think OG has to rank near the top of the list for outstanding production on the field.

 

[SMU_Sox]

@Jimbodandy Daniel Graham was about average, Watson was better than that, one year of Marty B, Gronk, Hernendez, and now.. Hunter Henry and Jonnu Smith (can’t technically count them yet of course).

Gronk had 4 all pros, 5 pro bowls, and in his peak was the best right end in NFL history.

We also had one of the best blocking FBs of our time in James Develin who made the pro bowl in 2017.

So that’s 6 pro bowls, 4 all pros, and even without Gronk you still had an above average group to work with. I think though because of Gronk that it’s hard not to rank this group near the top of the list as that will happen when you have a hall of famer in the mix.

 

[Jimbodandy]

WR is tricky because while the Patriots have had a history of excellent production from the slot they have not always had consistently great guys outside minus Moss and Branch. Troy Brown had a pro bowl in 2001, Welker had 2 all pros and 5 pro bowls here. Edelman was a one time pro bowl alternate but was in the SB so it technically doesn’t show up on his record. Still that’s 6/7 pro bow season, 2 all pros, and a very good Jules to represent them the last 20 years in the slot. Newcomer Jakobi Meyers looks solid there too. Outside has been a different story. The only pro bow outside receiver who was also a first team all pro was Moss in 2007. They’ve had solid guys like LaFell and Hogan but have gotten by with average talent there usually. It’s not a position Bull has invested in. Overall I think WR has been a mixed bag because of the lack of consistent outside top 1/3 of the league talent but always having a top talent slot. It’s just not going to rank highly either even with the shoutout and regard for their slots over the years.

Fwiw, I think that you should rethink inside/outside rankings for WR. If we're going to rank OT and OG differently (perhaps lumping in C with the latter), I think that slot/deep guys is a fair distinction. As you note the Pats have been blessed with dominant guys in the slot during BBs run, but aside from Randy and a few nice seasons from Branch, not really in outside production. Even with Troy's (my favorite player ever) ballsy year as a deep guy, he was a damn productive inside guy for years first.

 

[Jimbodandy]

@Jimbodandy Daniel Graham was about average, Watson was better than that, one year of Marty B, Gronk, Hernendez, and now.. Hunter Henry and Jonnu Smith (can’t technically count them yet of course).

Gronk had 4 all pros, 5 pro bowls, and in his peak was the best right end in NFL history.

We also had one of the best blocking FBs of our time in James Develin who made the pro bowl in 2017.

So that’s 6 pro bowls, 4 all pros, and even without Gronk you still had an above average group to work with. I think though because of Gronk that it’s hard not to rank this group near the top of the list as that will happen when you have a hall of famer in the mix.

Tough to separate Gronk, but in Earth 2 where Gronk went into some other field, SMU_SOX2 has TE in the same general area as RB. Well, that's not fair. Jimbodandy2 does though.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Hey these are subjective - YMMV! Plus I think you have a fair point with that position being top heavy.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Hey these are subjective - YMMV! Plus I think you have a fair point with that position being top heavy.

It's a great topic. Thanks for that.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Fwiw, I think that you should rethink inside/outside rankings for WR. If we're going to rank OT and OG differently (perhaps lumping in C with the latter), I think that slot/deep guys is a fair distinction. As you note the Pats have been blessed with dominant guys in the slot during BBs run, but aside from Randy and a few nice seasons from Branch, not really in outside production. Even with Troy's (my favorite player ever) ballsy year as a deep guy, he was a damn productive inside guy for years first.

I personally like separating the primarily slot guys from the primarily outside guys. Sure guys like Edelman did it all but Welker and Troy Brown were definitely inside dominant types. That to me is another positional unit that is up there in the pantheon of excellent units whereas outside is one of the worst groups here.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I personally like separating the primarily slot guys from the primarily outside guys. Sure guys like Edelman did it all but Welker and Troy Brown were definitely inside dominant types. That to me is another positional unit that is up there in the pantheon of excellent units whereas outside is one of the worst groups here.

Agree 100%.

 

[SMU_Sox]

For OT we have a lot of talent to discuss.

Matt Light anchored down LT from 2001-2011 and made 3 pro-bowls and an all pro. Solder took over from there - I’d argue he was a little better than league average but not great - a solid B though at LT is valuable and then from there one excellent year of Trent Brown and Wynn (when healthy). It’s not their best group of all time but another generally good position.

RT early on was a cast of characters until Nick Kaczur in 2006. Then we went from Kaczur to Seabass, Macy’s Cannon, and now up for grabs. While none of their RTs ever made a pro bowl and didn’t have the accolades of the LT group it was another good unit. Overall tackle didn’t have the star power as the interior unit, OG. This one will probably land in the middle of the pack.

This year will be interesting. Wynn is like Matt Light in that when he’s healthy he’s the same caliber of player at the position. Trent Brown is a monster in pass pro but let’s see how his time here round 2 goes.

For OT they have had just 3 pro bowls and one all pro for Matt Light.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Running back is near the bottom of the list. They’ve only had one pro bowl season from Corey Dillon in 2004. They’ve never had a legit star there except for Dillon. RB by committee has served them well especially with their good OL. They’ve moved the chains and taken what has been blocked. Lawrence Maroney and Sony Michel didn’t pan out as they were supposed to either even counting Sony’s 2018 post season. Bill has taken guys all over the draft and had them be moderately successful pros whether it was Lawfirm as a UDFA, Ridley’s first couple of years and of course White and Vereen. They’ve usually had a RB room where they had a first and second down back and a 3rd down guy and it’s the 3rd down guys who have consistently been better at that role like Faulk, Woodhead, Vereen, and White. This group never wowed anyone but generally was reliable and that counts for something but the group looks bad compared to other positions.

Damien Harris flashed in 2020 and I’m excited about Stevenson. Harris was playing at a pro bowl caliber level last year and could see a lot of volume and success in 2021.

I am also excited by the addition of Stevenson in the draft. I think they could have found a better all-around Blount who had career years with the Patriots.