So you're saying you think Price is a salary albatross, worth paying to get rid of, even at $15m/yr for 3 years?Which teams? All ears.
I don't want to derail the thread but to echo a few other posters who responded to you, I think this train of thought is really off base. I think LeBron is plenty loved around the world and is one of the few athletes who transcends their sport.Oh I understand.
LeBron is widely respected, but not loved. Like, he'll never be beloved like Kobe.
I would argue that the days of a baseball player reaching that level are gone. Trout hasn't reached that level, and I don't see anyone else in the game today with a chance.I don't want to derail the thread but to echo a few other posters who responded to you, I think this train of thought is really off base. I think LeBron is plenty loved around the world and is one of the few athletes who transcends their sport.
I don't think Mookie has reached that level yet and I'm not sure he ever will. (Also, LeBron is pretty much the unquestioned best player of his generation which makes him much more like Trout than Mookie)
If the Red Sox were going to keep Betts for 2020, they would expect to compete for the playoffs. Would they be a playoff team with a starting rotation of Eduardo Rodriguez, Martin Perez and a bunch of question marks (and only $16 million to fill those slots and whatever other needs they still have)?Sale and Eovaldi make a combined $46 million AAV this year. Boston just saved $43 million to get under the cap. There would have been no luxury tax pressure to move Betts minus those extensions. And there would be no luxury tax pressure to deal Betts, even though there would still be reasons to move him.
Except this is the complete opposite situation. We aren't taking on a rental, we gave away the big name at the timeAlso, I can't believe that in my time as a Red Sox fan, I've seen them trade Jeff Bagwell's entire career for a one month rental of a middle reliever, and now on the flip side, trade away a full season rental of an MVP candidate for two middling prospects.
Thanks again, Lou Gorman
You're right, it is a funny first two months...mine are January and FebruaryThis seems like an unlikely first two months on the Sox calendar:
David Ortiz did. Jeter did. Pedro did. Mariano did. Etc.I would argue that the days of a baseball player reaching that level are gone. Trout hasn't reached that level, and I don't see anyone else in the game today with a chance.
I meant of the season, but whatever.Except this is the complete opposite situation. We aren't taking on a rental, we gave away the big name at the time
You're right, it is a funny first two months...mine are January and February
"Andrew, you have to do me a solid here"it seems odd Rosenthal and Passan would miss anything on a deal this big, sorry Peter.
One, that very well could be their rotation, outside of David Price, anyway. (EDIT: For clarity, had they let Eovaldi walk and not signed Sale to that extension, Price would be their top of the rotation starter in your theoretical) Because who knows how healthy Sale & Eovaldi will be.If the Red Sox were going to keep Betts for 2020, they would expect to compete for the playoffs. Would they be a playoff team with a starting rotation of Eduardo Rodriguez, Martin Perez and a bunch of question marks (and only $16 million to fill those slots and whatever other needs they still have)?
Just ribbing you a bitI meant of the season, but whatever.
I'm guessing he probably meant that he wanted to stay this season.I don't buy it. He wants the most money. Period.
That makes sense, and would also make the quote seem a bit disingenuous...."I wanted to stay, but only until I could leave (or not) on my terms." Which is fine in itself--nothing wrong with wanting to control your destiny--but then don't spin it as "if only they had wanted me".I'm guessing he probably meant that he wanted to stay this season.
When Oritiz is the youngest player on this list, I think you might be proving the opposite point you're trying to make. Obviously we're all baseball nuts here, but individual players just don't make waves in the public at large these days, not compared to someone like LeBron anyway.David Ortiz did. Jeter did. Pedro did. Mariano did. Etc.
I think Trout not doing that is inherently in the east coast bias.
I meant of the season, but whatever.
Where do those values come from? Projections like STEAMER? Crowdsourcing? I've seen people using the simulator quite a bit lately and I have NFI how it works, exactly.See Savin Hillbilly’s trade simulator link. Bloom won on value massively.
I finally told the little guy after he was done school today. He's 5 and when I told him, he says "Whatever, I still like Mookie. Now I can cheer for two teams."Yep. Told my 7-year old this morning. His eyes went wide and he asked me, "who did we get?" And that's where it went bad. Then we had a long talk about free agency and Curt Flood and arbitration and team control and the salary cap. I think he got it intellectually, which actually surprised me since he still laughs really hard when I fart and blame it on his baby sister.
No tears. I think kids will just have to get used to this as the new world order. Clemens leaving really felt like the exception when I was 12. This is just the way it is now. I told him we root for the laundry and I'll still buy us the MLB.tv package.
But he did swap out the Mookie card that has always been tucked into the plastic on the binding of his baseball card album for a Xander.
Smart kid, you should be very proud.I finally told the little guy after he was done school today. He's 5 and when I told him, he says "Whatever, I still like Mookie. Now I can cheer for two teams."
Like water off a ducks back. I feel there is a lesson many of us could learn here, but in my fandom, I don't think I want to
If you want to go more recently... someone like Aaron Judge is on his way. Christian Yelich too.When Oritiz is the youngest player on this list, I think you might be proving the opposite point you're trying to make. Obviously we're all baseball nuts here, but individual players just don't make waves in the public at large these days, not compared to someone like LeBron anyway.
I’m assuming you mean medicals, and I completely agree. I can’t decide if its the shoulder impingement or the fact that he’s already 265 lb and seems to be gaining fat every year that’s more alarming. Either way the fact that he was available for Maeda is a huge red flag. I wouldn’t be shocked if either of these guys failed the physical. Then we’ll be able to tell if this was really about the salary dump if it still goes through.I made it through 14 of the current 17 pages.
I was resigned to fact that trading Mookie made more sense than not trading him, because the probability of losing him next fall for nothing but a 4th round pick was intolerable.
I was resigned to fact that David Price’s contract would have to be heavily subsidized. I am surprised that teams apparently value him less than Ryu, but ok.
That said, I am totally alarmed by the return. Neither of these players had a healthy 2019. Verdugo’s back injury should have made him a non-starter in this discussion. Graterol’s pre-existing TJ surgery and shoulder impingement severely lessens his value relative to his raw stuff as well.
And the fact that the Twins, who know Graterol’s medicals the best, traded him for Kenta Maeda is bringing back the same misgivings I had about the Sale contract. Graterol should not have been available for Maeda. That he was, hangs a very big “Buyer Beware” sign on him in my mind.
For major leaguers it seems like they basically just use a combination of projections to determine value relative to salary, for minor leaguers it seems more ambiguous, but they include prospect rankings and then make some adjustments.Where do those values come from? Projections like STEAMER? Crowdsourcing? I've seen people using the simulator quite a bit lately and I have NFI how it works, exactly.
I'm not sure Graterol being available for Maeda is a huge red flag. The Twins needed another veteran SP on a win-now team and Maeda comes very cheap plus he can go in the pen as well. Graterol may still flame out as a prospect, but Maeda is signed for the next 4 years at $3.125 million/yr. That's a ton of value and Graterol is a fair ask for that.I’m assuming you mean medicals, and I completely agree. I can’t decide if its the shoulder impingement or the fact that he’s already 265 lb and seems to be gaining fat every year that’s more alarming. Either way the fact that he was available for Maeda is a huge red flag. I wouldn’t be shocked if either of these guys failed the physical. Then we’ll be able to tell if this was really about the salary dump if it still goes through.
Exactly. For the injury and character-issue laden return they got, why bother?1 year of Mookie is still worth > 0
World Series within 3 years with Verdugo not on the team at all would be better than winning one with a guy who has had the (alleged) off field issues he has had. I can't in good conscience root for a team that employs someone who has treated women the way he (allegedly) has, especially when it comes at the expense of a player who is by all accounts also a wonderful guyFor all the haters on this, does anything that happens on the field negate this? If they win another WS in the next 3 years with Verdugo in RF is all forgiven?
Why are you hanging around here then?World Series within 3 years with Verdugo not on the team at all would be better than winning one with a guy who has had the (alleged) off field issues he has had. I can't in good conscience root for a team that employs someone who has treated women the way he (allegedly) has, especially when it comes at the expense of a player who is by all accounts also a wonderful guy
Red Sox owners from 1919 to 2001:I could care less about a trade simulator’s evaluation, any fool can look at the trade and see that the Dodgers absolutely killed it.
The Red Sox got hosed, two maybes (and one a huge risk) coming back and no one to spend their savings on for this season and few clear fits for next.
The wrecking ball is swinging and who knows where it will stop, these owners are every bit as bad as they are good.
How much less could you care? And is it really all fools or just some of you? I'm really trying to understand these advanced analytics.I could care less about a trade simulator’s evaluation, any fool can look at the trade and see that the Dodgers absolutely killed it.
The Red Sox got hosed, two maybes (and one a huge risk) coming back and no one to spend their savings on for this season and few clear fits for next.
The wrecking ball is swinging and who knows where it will stop, these owners are every bit as bad as they are good.
Here, this will helpHow much less could you care? And is it really all fools or just some of you? I'm really trying to understand these advance analytics.
I skipped through this thread, and if anyone already posted this, apologies. But, for "grade the trade," sportswriters didn't think much of this move by the Red Sox.
I looked at four "grades," including one from Sports Illustrated and one from Sporting News, and for the Red Sox they were:
D, C, D, D
Exactly. People really love to overreact.Red Sox owners from 1919 to 2001:
Seasons: 83
World Series Wins: 0
Current ownership from 2002 to 2019:
Seasons: 18
World Series Wins: 4
They're ok with me.
Kid should have an account here. He already helped this thread.Smart kid, you should be very proud.
Bradford Doolittle and Dave Schoenfeld on espn insider gave the Sox a B+ and an AI skipped through this thread, and if anyone already posted this, apologies. But, for "grade the trade," sportswriters didn't think much of this move by the Red Sox.
I looked at four "grades," including one from Sports Illustrated and one from Sporting News, and for the Red Sox they were:
D, C, D, D
On the bright side, the Sox are under the luxury tax threshold, I guess.
Or they saw the negative reacton and are using the physicas as an out. It's also possible Graterol is the one who failed the physical. Or even Price.If I had to guess, I'd say the Red Sox are planning to protest Verdugo's physical for purposes of negotiating an additional A-ball flyer or 2 & then roll over. No is making me guess, though, so I won't.
That's not a hint. That means nothing.While I acknowledge he’s a douche, Carrabis might be dropping hints that something is up with one of the physicals. If the Sox won’t sign off on Verdugo’s back, I wonder where they go from there.
View: https://twitter.com/jared_carrabis/status/1225219438062047237?s=21
This is dead on. Despite being over his credit limit, Dombrowski was still buying drinks for everybody in the bar. The Sale deal was an absolute head-scratcher, especially after seeing how Sale struggled with injuries in 2018. It's almost as if Sale's heroic closeout of game 5 was all that Dombrowski remembered of the 2018 season.Well... That and the downside of the 2018 World Series is that the Sox brain-trust fell in love with the team. Re-signed Eovaldi, Pearce, and gave Sale a megabucks contract extension. This current scenario is why I may be a little more forgiving should they be more cold-hearted if/when the Sox win another championship.
I don't know why anyone's convinced that anyone failed a physical.Yeah if someone did fail a physical, I dunno why everyone's convinced it's Verdugo and not the guy who has already had TJ surgery and other problems.
edit: would also explain why he was available for Maeda.
Yeah, no one did.I don't know why anyone's convinced that anyone failed a physical.
It’d be great if one of the doctors could chime in, but isn’t it usually more worrisome if an athlete has an injury that can’t be diagnosed, like a lingering back issue, than one that shows up and can be subjected to a treatment protocol?
Undiagnosable, long-lasting health issues sounds like Ellsburitis and make me wary.
Because Carrabis and our own SoxScout are legitimately plugged and both are alluding to physical issues.I don't know why anyone's convinced that anyone failed a physical.
I'm pretty sure the negative fan reaction was fully expected by everyone in Red Sox management.Or they saw the negative reacton and are using the physicas as an out. It's also possible Graterol is the one who failed the physical. Or even Price.