Betts/Price to LA for Verdugo/Jeter Downs/TBA

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snowmanny

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Last time the Red Sox f’d a blockbuster trade this badly the superstar they didn’t end up trading was the WS MVP for Boston.
 

DebSox

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Except that I believe that DD had the totally blessing of the FO to make the moves he did. If not, the FO is more inept than I believed. So this may be a course correction, but it still sucks since they knew the perimeters moving forward. Mookie was going to FA period. .Unless blow away by an offer that the RS gave before arbitration.
 

Cokes311

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There is no reason to include politics in your post. If you can't make your point without politics, don't post. This is your only warning.
sorry, i was just pointing out a psycho-social concept that is at play here using an obvious, commonly known analogy that people could easily understand and relate to

did not realize that was verboten. won't happen again
 

djbayko

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Reading other message boards, Twins and Dodgers fans are irate at the Sox. LA fans think the Sox have to make this deal work or Bloom will be blackballed around the league from making other deals.

Funny that everyone seems to know a lot more about the inside of this situation than I do.
 

Cokes311

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Apr 10, 2008
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Reading other message boards, Twins and Dodgers fans are irate at the Sox. LA fans think the Sox have to make this deal work or Bloom will be blackballed around the league from making other deals.

Funny that everyone seems to know a lot more about the inside of this situation than I do.
what's the perspective from Twins fans?
 

djbayko

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what's the perspective from Twins fans?
They’re assuming Sox are making this all up because they got cold feet. Saying they should have known Brusdar was projected to be a reliever by the Twins. Completely ignoring that none of us have any insight into the medicals.
 

brandonchristensen

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Reading other message boards, Twins and Dodgers fans are irate at the Sox. LA fans think the Sox have to make this deal work or Bloom will be blackballed around the league from making other deals.

Funny that everyone seems to know a lot more about the inside of this situation than I do.
first they get caught cheating and now this!
 

radsoxfan

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From a medical perspective, I am curious how the Red Sox team docs and front office have (apparently) decided Graterol is more reliever than starter based on his medical records.

According to a google search, he has had Tommy John on his elbow, obviously not something alone that prevents someone from being a starter. He also apparently had "shoulder impingement", which is a pretty broad description that can affect both starters and relievers.

In general, almost all of these pitchers have abnormal shoulder MRI's, and it's just a question of severity as well as stability (if it looks bad but has looked the same for 5 years and a pitcher's velocity/results have been stable, docs will be less concerned). I'm sure he has some degree of labral tearing and cartilage damage given the "impingement".

Maybe I'm just not experienced or smart enough to look at a shoulder MRI and say "starter" or "reliever" based on the results, but it strikes me as a difficult thing to gauge. I've seen some pretty ugly shoulder MRIs for both major league starters and relievers that went on to have their typical seasons. The starter/reliever issues seems to have a lot to do with a combination of repertoire, stuff, stamina, and make-up. I'm not sure the imaging alone can give very complete answers to these.

If his shoulder MRI looks way worse than a typical pitcher, then just void the deal or ask for someone new. If his shoulder has some minor issues, that's pretty much normal for a professional pitcher. If his shoulder looks somewhere in the middle, the interpretation is highly dependent on how much experience the medical staff has and how risk averse they are (i.e. desire for CYA).

I don't know anything about the Red Sox orthopedic staff, but it wouldn't surprise me if they are being pretty conservative, especially since some other experienced Orthos have apparently weighed in with a different (though perhaps biased) opinion. Another option of course is that ownership was surprised by the extent of the negative reaction to the trade, and is using the MRI results as an excuse to improve their side of the deal or back out.
 

bankshot1

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Reading other message boards, Twins and Dodgers fans are irate at the Sox. LA fans think the Sox have to make this deal work or Bloom will be blackballed around the league from making other deals.

Funny that everyone seems to know a lot more about the inside of this situation than I do.
It seems they may be irate because their initial glee that the Sox were subsidizng the trades might get walked back, and get a little more expensive.
 

high cheese

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Horrendous management of the Sox since the World Series - DD took the fall but this completely belongs to ownership.

What a waste of an incredible opportunity.
 

Green Monster

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Horrendous management of the Sox since the World Series - DD took the fall but this completely belongs to ownership.

What a waste of an incredible opportunity.
Pearce and Eovaldi were clearly World Series hangover given their respective contributions to the championship. Not sure what to make of Sales contract given the injury concerns around him at that time.....perhaps just a general hangover?
 

high cheese

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Agreed, I'm good with the Sale contract. Stud pitcher and I'll believe he'll be back.

Problem is, baseball is a game of confidence and momentum- The franchise literally has lost all positive momentum and there's really nothing they can do to salvage that at this point. No trade, no managerial hire, no owner statements will turn it - maybe - maybe the players who are on the 2020 team can rally and pull it off but that's a lot to expect with everything going on right now.
 

high cheese

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Agreed, I'm good with the Sale contract. Stud pitcher and I'll believe he'll be back.

Problem is, baseball is a game of confidence and momentum- The franchise literally has lost all positive momentum and there's really nothing they can do to salvage that at this point. No trade, no managerial hire, no owner statements will turn it - maybe - maybe the players who are on the 2020 team can rally and pull it off but that's a lot to expect with everything going on right now.
 

BeantownIdaho

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Dec 5, 2005
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Horrendous management of the Sox since the World Series - DD took the fall but this completely belongs to ownership.

What a waste of an incredible opportunity.
I'm a little confused - earlier in the thread you said that the "Red Sox got hosed, two maybes (and one a huge risk) coming back" - but now you say it's a waste of an incredible opportunity.
 

high cheese

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I'm a little confused - earlier in the thread you said that the "Red Sox got hosed, two maybes (and one a huge risk) coming back" - but now you say it's a waste of an incredible opportunity.
The opportunity is the the core of the team that's been in place for the last several years.
 

amRadio

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Feb 7, 2019
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I am not even close to certain the Sale contract is bad. That assumption seems to go unchallenged given the recent results, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sale has more Sale-quality seasons left in his 30's. Almost none of his peripheral stats have declined in this recent slump-or-what-have-you. He still touches the upper 90's at times. Graterol, E-rod and Sale for the next five years was an attractive possibility to me when there was reason to believe Graterol could be built up as a starter.

If the Sox keep Betts and Price and go for it this year, Sale is one of the players I think can help them compete against the Yankees in later years after Mookie walks. I don't see any reason to deem him a sunk cost.
 

scottyno

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Agreed, I'm good with the Sale contract. Stud pitcher and I'll believe he'll be back.

Problem is, baseball is a game of confidence and momentum- The franchise literally has lost all positive momentum and there's really nothing they can do to salvage that at this point. No trade, no managerial hire, no owner statements will turn it - maybe - maybe the players who are on the 2020 team can rally and pull it off but that's a lot to expect with everything going on right now.
They'd also lost all positive momentum before 2004 2007 and 2013 too, so not sure exactly how baseball is a game of momentum, in fact there's an old adage about baseball that says the exact opposite.
 

Montana Fan

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The Sox have to be able to get 2 productive players for Mookie and Price. Maybe it’s gonna take a second stab at it but seriously. If Verdugo isn’t an asshole and Brusdal wasn’t injured, the return was solid. Need to mirror that in the next week.

Sad to see Mookie go, very, but I get the spot they are in re: the draft and the tax. Maybe there was another way out but there doesn’t seem to be one any more. With the ml system being soft, I expect more guys to be traded over the next 12 months. Still hopeful that Bloom’s the guy to do it right.
 

nighthob

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It seems they may be irate because their initial glee that the Sox were subsidizng the trades might get walked back, and get a little more expensive.
Yeah, to Dodgers fans the trade was their revenge for 2018. Losing that offends their sense of justice. All the more hilarious given just how scummy an organization they’ve been.
 

djbayko

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They'd also lost all positive momentum before 2004 2007 and 2013 too, so not sure exactly how baseball is a game of momentum, in fact there's an old adage about baseball that says the exact opposite.
From where I sit, "momentum" doesn't appear to cross seasons in any sport. Yeah, the Red Sox are Example #1 of that, so it's strange for that sentiment pop up in this forum of all places.
 

Teachdad46

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Bloom: "Hi, Mookie. We just completed a three-way trade with the Dodgers and Twins. You're going to LA. I want you to know that Mr. Henry, Mr Warner, and I all wish you the best, and we hope to speak to you again next Fall."
Mookie: "WTF! Are you shitting me!? I thought I told you guys that before you finalize any trade involving me you need to give me one last chance to extend! I don't wanna go to La La Land. I don't! Wahhhh...."
Bloom: " Uh oh...um...hold on a sec...maybe there's...
 
Aug 20, 2017
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Any chance Bloom viewed Graterol as an opener as early as this season? We need a number 5 and many are expecting an opener to fill the spot. If his medicals reveal a one inning pitcher, then the wording of starter/reliever would make more sense. Bloom is looking for two immediate replacements for Betts and Price and I can see why he would walk away.
 

patinorange

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How many people that are 100% dead set on not trading Mookie are going to complain loudly when he leaves for free agency after 2020 and all the Sox get out of the deal is a comp pick and are still in luxury tax hell because they haven’t been able to get under it?

Because if they don’t deal Mookie/Price, that’s what’s gonna happen.
I won't complain a bit if they win the World Series.
 

DeadlySplitter

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how is Mookie not taking a hometown discount "wasting an incredible opportunity"? that's just bad luck on what Mookie's personality is. and it's really lame baseball nowadays factors in a player's personality to how efficient he is, but that's the truth right now - X is efficient for sticking to the Sox, Mookie is not efficient.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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how is Mookie not taking a hometown discount "wasting an incredible opportunity"? that's just bad luck on what Mookie's personality is. and it's really lame baseball nowadays factors in a player's personality to how efficient he is, but that's the truth right now - X is efficient for sticking to the Sox, Mookie is not efficient.
Who is "baseball" that does this nowadays?
 

chawson

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Any chance Bloom viewed Graterol as an opener as early as this season? We need a number 5 and many are expecting an opener to fill the spot. If his medicals reveal a one inning pitcher, then the wording of starter/reliever would make more sense. Bloom is looking for two immediate replacements for Betts and Price and I can see why he would walk away.
The type of pitcher deployed as an opener is still evolving and probably subject to team philosophy, but from what I can tell they haven’t been fireballers or late-inning high-leverage guys, which is what you hope Graterol is at the very least, if he isn’t a starter.

Guys like Ryan Brasier or Heath Hembree would be decent openers for us, if paired with, say, Martin Perez. Graterol would have been more valuable, a Kimbrel type, maybe, or a non-injured Tyler Glasnow at best.
 

DeadlySplitter

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moreso the personality of a player determines if they take a hometown discount or not.

I don't think a player's personality should factor into their value, but with that link, it inevitably is a factor.
 

Rwillh11

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I'm genuinely trying to understand what you're talking about. The front offices crunching the numbers factor in personalities to efficiency? How do you know this? And what does it matter?
I would read this as being upset with the idea that teams are run like businesses, and therefore focus on getting "efficient" production in terms of cost per win ($ per WAR or however you want to measure it). So if a player is willing to take a hometown discount, they are more efficient - if they want to get paid they are less efficient.

Of course, I'd say this is what front offices have always done. Now that we have better ways to quantify things, there is a lot of push back. But what is the alternative?
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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I would read this as being upset with the idea that teams are run like businesses, and therefore focus on getting "efficient" production in terms of cost per win ($ per WAR or however you want to measure it). So if a player is willing to take a hometown discount, they are more efficient - if they want to get paid they are less efficient.

Of course, I'd say this is what front offices have always done. Now that we have better ways to quantify things, there is a lot of push back. But what is the alternative?
Thanks, this makes some sense. But yes, that's the business of baseball and always has been. Why that's upsetting is beyond my grasp.
 

jon abbey

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The type of pitcher deployed as an opener is still evolving and probably subject to team philosophy, but from what I can tell they haven’t been fireballers or late-inning high-leverage guys, which is what you hope Graterol is at the very least, if he isn’t a starter.
As openers? NY used Chad Green, who would be a late inning high leverage guy if NY didn't have so many others, and who pretty much only throws fastballs. TB started this with Romo who was a longtime closer, and last year they used Stanek as their main guy before they traded him (he can hit 100).

So Graterol would actually be a perfect fit for this role as far as I can see.
 

chawson

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As openers? NY used Chad Green, who would be a late inning high leverage guy if NY didn't have so many others, and who pretty much only throws fastballs. TB started this with Romo who was a longtime closer, and last year they used Stanek as their main guy before they traded him (he can hit 100).

So Graterol would actually be a perfect fit for this role as far as I can see.
Green’s a good exception, even though he wasn’t as successful in that role. Romo is more of a usage/matchup guy, or ROOGY if that still exists. Stanek seems anomalous, more like a late bloomer Rays project.

There are admittedly too few examples to make a trend, I just don’t see how anyone would consider the opener to be a favorable outcome for a 20-year-old Top 100 pitching prospect.
 

bosockboy

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As openers? NY used Chad Green, who would be a late inning high leverage guy if NY didn't have so many others, and who pretty much only throws fastballs. TB started this with Romo who was a longtime closer, and last year they used Stanek as their main guy before they traded him (he can hit 100).

So Graterol would actually be a perfect fit for this role as far as I can see.
Yep I think he was envisioned as a 60 pitch type opener, and after reviewing medicals decided he’s a standard 3-6 out reliever.
 

RedOctober3829

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New info from Mark Feinsand of MLB.com

--The three-team megadeal that would land Mookie Betts and David Price in Los Angeles took a hit Saturday, as it became increasingly unlikely that the Twins would be a participant in the final trade between the Red Sox and Dodgers.

--The Red Sox, Dodgers and Twins were trying to work out a solution as late as Saturday afternoon, sources said, even holding a three-team conference call at one point. As of Saturday night, it appeared that Minnesota would not be part of a Betts deal, a source said, though the Twins could very well make a separate trade with the Dodgers to add right-hander Kenta Maeda to their rotation.

--With the Twins seemingly out of the mix, the Red Sox appear focused on getting a deal done with the Dodgers, a source said. Los Angeles would need to add at least one player to substitute for Graterol, though it’s possible the Dodgers could try taking on a larger portion of Price’s salary in lieu of adding another highly-rated prospect. It’s also possible (though less likely) that the Red Sox and Dodgers could add another team into the trade, creating a new three-team deal.
Should the Red Sox and Dodgers fail to work out a trade, Boston could begin shopping Betts around the league again. Multiple teams have already reached out to the Red Sox since the three-way trade hit its first speed bump, sources said, so while Boston remains committed to working something out with Los Angeles, there are options if a deal is unable to be completed. The Padres would be the front-runner to land Betts if that scenario were to present itself, though a source said other teams have suggested they would be also interested in Betts and possibly Price.

https://www.mlb.com/news/twins-trade-update-mookie-betts
 

E5 Yaz

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Multiple teams have already reached out to the Red Sox since the three-way trade hit its first speed bump, sources said, so while Boston remains committed to working something out with Los Angeles, there are options if a deal is unable to be completed. The Padres would be the front-runner to land Betts if that scenario were to present itself, though a source said other teams have suggested they would be also interested in Betts and possibly Price.
I've always wondered about things such as this. Is it tampering? Can teams actually make an offer during this window?
 

amRadio

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I have a lot of respect for John Henry. I'd be very, very surprised in this moment if he allowed Bloom to accept further salary relief in lieu of a prospect. That does nothing for the Red Sox. I have never known Henry to blatantly make moves for his own wallet since he bought the team.

I really have a hard time understanding why Friedman wouldn't include Josiah Gray to just make this happen. He has 40 IP above AA, he's attractive to the Red Sox and may in the long run be blocked by their insane SP depth. Verdugo and Gray for Mookie and Price is a steal.
 
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