Bigger Cog in the Yankee Dynasty...

Who is the bigger cog in the late 90s Yankee dynasty?

  • I'm a Yanks fan and I say Derek Jeter

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • I'm a Yanks fan and I say Mariano Rivera

    Votes: 8 5.2%
  • I'm a Sox fan and I say Derek Jeter

    Votes: 31 20.3%
  • I'm a Sox fan and I say Mariano Rivera

    Votes: 96 62.7%
  • I'm neither a Yanks or Sox fan and I say Derek Jeter

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • I'm neither a Yanks or Sox fan and I say Mariano Rivera

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Forget the other two...I say Bernie Williams

    Votes: 16 10.5%

  • Total voters
    153

BaseballJones

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In a discussion with a couple of friends of mine who are Yankee fans. The topic: Which Yankee is the biggest cog in the late 90s dynasty (specifically, 1996-2000, when they won 4 out of 5 World Series): Mariano Rivera or Derek Jeter?

Jeter: 771 g, 600 r, 996 h, 78 hr, 407 rbi, 108 sb, .323/.396/.470/.865, 123 ops+, 1447 total bases, 28.4 bWAR, 4x top 25 MVP, 3x AS
Rivera: 313 g, 385.1 ip, 28-14 record, 2.13 era, 223 era+, 165 saves, 1.04 whip, 8.0 k/9, 17.5 bWAR, 2x top 3 CYA, 3x top 25 MVP, 4x AS

What say you, Yankee fans? (and Sox fans too if you want to chime in)
 

DJnVa

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Could be interesting to see the dichotomy between MFY and Sox fans here---can you set up a poll that reflects that?
 

tims4wins

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Should be easy.

And possible answers would be

I'm a MFY Fan - Jeter
I'm a MFY Fan - Mo
I'm a Sox Fan - Jeter
I'm a Sox Fan - Mo

For what it's worth, I would vote Mo. I think downgrade Jeter to average SS and they still win titles. Downgrade Mo to average closer and I think they suffer more.
 

jon abbey

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Not too into these kind of discussions, would probably vote Rivera, but you've got to add 2001 to the 'dynasty' years, they came two outs away from winning the WS and beat two historically great teams along the way (the A's had just put up the best second half record ever and the Mariners won 116 games).

I mean, when a team wins 14 of 16 postseason series (as NY did from 96-2001), there's a good chance it has a lot to do with their closer.
 

jon abbey

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Also Bernie Williams is right up there, he had a .953 OPS combined for those six seasons.
 

jon abbey

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Bernie had a .822 postseason OPS from 96-2001, Jeter's was .825. Bernie's WPA was 1.363, Jeter's was .964.
 

coremiller

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It's Jeter and it's not even that close. Closers don't just throw enough innings to be that valuable. Rivera's highest WAR season was 1996 when he wasn't even the closer.

If you are looking at playoffs only Mo would have a strong case, because he was used more and his post-season numbers were so absurd -- from 96-01 he allowed 7 earned runs in 73.2 IP with 6.383 WPA. But any comparison involving regular season numbers is going to make closers look bad.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Let’s look at their usual opponents in October. Teams like the Braves had the starting pitching to match up with the Yankees starters. Teams like the Indians and Mariners had the offense to matchup with the Yankees lineup. The difference was always Rivera. Look at all the blown saves and late inning collapses opponents had during that run. Mark Wohlers, Armando Benitez, BK Kim, Kazuhiro Sasaki. That Torre could counter with 1-2 innings of Rivera late in games was the difference in most of their series.
 

jon abbey

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Yep, if you're asking specifically the biggest reason for NY's overall success in those six seasons, I am going Rivera/Bernie/Jeter in that order, but the thing about those teams was always the balance and depth.
 

jon abbey

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NY averaged 97 regular season wins in those seasons, including WS-winning years where they went 92-70 and 87-74. They went 56-22 in the postseason combined those six seasons, 14-2 in series as I said, that's the reason they're remembered and that is because of Mariano first and foremost.
 

jon abbey

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56-22 projects to a 116-46 pace over 162 games, that team was truly remarkable.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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Bernie was a better player than Jeter from 96-00.

Rivera was a truly unique and special player that took a great team and put them way over the top.

They 96-00 Yankees team were awesome. Power, speed, they hit for average, deep rotations, and great bullpen with the all-time great closer.
 

snowmanny

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Yes I can’t argue against Jeter or Rivera but I never thought that Bernie Williams got enough credit. At the time (meaning circa 2001) I felt that Bernie was a sure-fire HOFer on the grounds that he was the best player on a team that went on a run including 4 WS titles. I think in any sport someone who meets that criteria should be in their sport’s HOF. I’d probably still vote for him.

I get why he is not in but if he had had his career with his post-season success (team and individual) in the 50’s 60’s 70’s 80’s he’d have been voted in the HOF 100%.

Also he’s the one I tolerate the best.
 

Rough Carrigan

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I say it was Jeter because a lot of relievers are excellent for 3 or 4 years. What was exceptional about Rivera is that he was excellent for, whatever it was, 15 or 20. In the course of that period there were better relievers than him most of those years. But they didn't sustain it for 15 or 20 years. So, did Rivera have great value to the franchise? Sure, but a lot of that value was in not having to repeatedly rework their closer slot every 3 years like most teams have to. In that 5 year window, I think Jeter was more valuable. He was a terrific table setter.
 

Rough Carrigan

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Bernie was a better player than Jeter from 96-00.

Rivera was a truly unique and special player that took a great team and put them way over the top.

They 96-00 Yankees team were awesome. Power, speed, they hit for average, deep rotations, and great bullpen with the all-time great closer.
Okay, but to play devil's advocate, they got to the top in 1996 with John Wetteland as the closer. Doesn't that undercut the argument that Rivera was indispensible? We don't even have to wonder if they could have used a different closer. They did.
 

BaseballJones

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Which relief pitcher in baseball was better than Rivera from 1996-2000 (or 2001)?

When you count the postseason, nobody is even remotely in his league.
 

BaseballJones

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Okay, but to play devil's advocate, they got to the top in 1996 with John Wetteland as the closer. Doesn't that undercut the argument that Rivera was indispensible? We don't even have to wonder if they could have used a different closer. They did.
No because Rivera was by *far* their best and most valuable relief pitcher in 1996. Like...not even close.
 

BaseballJones

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Rivera vs. Wetteland in 1996...

Rivera: 107.2 ip, 2.09 era, 1.88 fip, 240 era+, 0.99 whip, 10.9 k/9, 5.0 bWAR
Wetteland: 63.2 ip, 2.83 era, 3.83 fip, 178 era+, 1.18 whip, 9.8 k/9, 2.4 bWAR
 

bankshot1

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I'm in the Rivera camp on this one, and that takes nothing from Jetes, who was generally the 3rd best SS in the AL during the 96-00 run.

And as good as Mo was, a devastating strength of those teams was the depth of the BP with some combo of Nelson, Mendoza, LLoyd, Wetteland and then Mo. If the Ys had a lead after the 5th/6th, the game was generally over.
 
Last edited:

HurstSoGood

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How do you really decide? Eye test? Stats? WAR? Throw darts?
The Yanks were loaded in those years. 1996-2000 (5 years) Jeter WAR of 28, Bernie 26-ish, Rivera 17.6.

Looking at playoff stats? Jeter batted .342/.450ish OBP while Bernie virtually disappeared in the 4 World Series Championships.

Strange, but true: 97-01 was arguably the "worst" 5 year stretch in Mariano's glorious career. And by "worst," I mean he was still awesome.
 

Bergs

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Those mfy teams were always outperforming their pythag, and I think general consensus was that Mo was the reason. As Sox fans, we have seen 4 championships with absolutely stellar closers (well, Kimbrell scuffled, but kept it together); no one should understand more than us how crucial the closer is to winning it all.
 

Rough Carrigan

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Rivera vs. Wetteland in 1996...

Rivera: 107.2 ip, 2.09 era, 1.88 fip, 240 era+, 0.99 whip, 10.9 k/9, 5.0 bWAR
Wetteland: 63.2 ip, 2.83 era, 3.83 fip, 178 era+, 1.18 whip, 9.8 k/9, 2.4 bWAR
I agree that he was better than Wetteland. There's no doubt. He became the closer in 1997 and gave up a crushing home run to Sandy freaking Alomar Jr. to help sink them in the playoffs that year.
 

BaseballJones

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Rivera postseason career, just for fun...

96 games
3 or more runs allowed: 0 games
2 or more runs allowed: 2 games
2 or more runs allowed (only 1 earned): 1 (so twice he gave up two runs; in one of them only one of the runs was earned)
1 run allowed: 9 games (1 of them it was unearned)

So in 85 out of 96 games (88.5%), he gave up zero runs.

He had 5 blown saves. 42 saves.

This is in the playoffs. Against the best teams in baseball. And in two of the blown saves...one was game 5 of the 2004 ALCS when he came into the 8th with a one-run lead and runners at first and third with nobody out. He retired three straight batters, but Varitek got a ball deep enough for a sac fly to charge Rivera with a BS. Another one was the Arizona game where he had a throwing error and then with the infield way in, Gonzalez hit a bloop that would have been the simplest catch ever for a shortstop had they been playing normal depth. He's just hardly given up many bad blown saves, and he virtually NEVER got rocked.
 

Ale Xander

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Where are the choices for mystique and aura and for short right field fence?
 

jon abbey

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Bernie Williams in 32 World Series games:

.208/.319/.358
And actually this is brought up a lot by the 2003 WS (1.149 OPS), so if you are looking at 96-2001, it is even lower. He was 15 for 100 in those 5 WS combined, yikes.

He was a lot better than Jeter in ALCSs, though.
 

scottyno

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Rivera had an 11.69 WPA in the playoffs, Jeter had a 0.02

Yeah, Jeter was more valuable overall because of the regular season, but there can't be many years where replacing Jeter with an average shortstop would have changed the Yankees regular season results, so if we assume that a bigger part of them being considered a dynasty is the playoff success over the regular season success it has to be Rivera. Jeter in the playoffs was massively overrated.

edit: That's their entire playoff history, so the gap gets closer if you only focus on that 6 year stretch, but it's still Rivera by a lot
 

jaytftwofive

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To be honest, other then the uniform I never disliked any of the Yanks from 96-2001 other then Strawberry and Clemens. And then other then A-Rod after that nobody turned me off. They were a lot more likeable then the Mets from 86-90 who thought they invented baseball. The Yanks of Jeter and Mo had a quiet cockiness about them. Confident, but not cocky. I had a lot more disdain for the late 70's early 80's Yanks who overly cocky like Reggie and Nettles and Gossage and others.
 

terrynever

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Yep, if you're asking specifically the biggest reason for NY's overall success in those six seasons, I am going Rivera/Bernie/Jeter in that order, but the thing about those teams was always the balance and depth.
O’Neill was the No. 3 hitter, right? Tino was a constant power threat.

Jeter was just a kid tagging along behind his big brothers. I will always believe that.
 

BaseballJones

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1999...
Jeter: 134 r, 24 hr, 102 rbi, .349/.438/.552/.989, 153 ops+
O'Neill: 70 r, 19 hr, 110 rbi, .285/.353/.459/.812, 107 ops+
Tino: 95 r, 28 hr, 105 rbi, .263/.341/.458/.800, 104 ops+

1996-2000
Jeter: 600 r, 78 hr, 407 rbi, .323/.396/.470/.865, 123 ops+
Tino: 434 r, 141 hr, 577 rbi, .278/.352/.486/.838, 114 ops+
O'Neill: 422 r, 101 hr, 534 rbi, .302/.374/.476/.850, 118 ops+

Not bad for a kid tagging along behind the other two....
 

terrynever

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1999...
Jeter: 134 r, 24 hr, 102 rbi, .349/.438/.552/.989, 153 ops+
O'Neill: 70 r, 19 hr, 110 rbi, .285/.353/.459/.812, 107 ops+
Tino: 95 r, 28 hr, 105 rbi, .263/.341/.458/.800, 104 ops+

1996-2000
Jeter: 600 r, 78 hr, 407 rbi, .323/.396/.470/.865, 123 ops+
Tino: 434 r, 141 hr, 577 rbi, .278/.352/.486/.838, 114 ops+
O'Neill: 422 r, 101 hr, 534 rbi, .302/.374/.476/.850, 118 ops+

Not bad for a kid tagging along behind the other two....
Just trying to stir things up, BJ. Jeter had one great season in 1999 but mostly he blooped singles to right. Marty Barrett style.
 

jon abbey

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Career HRs:

Jeter-260
O'Neill-281
Tino-339

(I know you're not really serious, but I do think Jeter doesn't get credit for his power)
 

terrynever

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Career HRs:

Jeter-260
O'Neill-281
Tino-339

(I know you're not really serious, but I do think Jeter doesn't get credit for his power)
260 homers in 20 years in an era when offense reined?

I object to any poll that tries to single out one or two players over a great team.
 

ifmanis5

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Wiseguy answer is Brian McNamee.

Mo was the greatest player at his position in the history of the sport. Jeter was often not the best player at his position in the AL.
Mo changed every game he was ever involved in based on his availability. Who game planned for Jeter?
In Jeter's entire postseason career 158 games and 734 plate appearances guess how many times he was intentionally walked?
3 (once in each series: 2003 ALDS, 2009 ALDS, 2009 ALCS)
Now guess how many times Bernie Williams was IBB in 121 games and 545 plate appearances?
11

The pecking order for me was always Mo, Bernie, bunch of other guys like Tino, O'Neill or Pettitte, then Jeter.
I also remember all the hardcore SABR folks on this board yelling at me that closers are overrated and don't matter even though the entire sport is now reverse engineered to leverage the good ones.
 

EvilEmpire

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Mo and Bernie I mostly agree with (I think it is close between Bernie and Jeter for second), but a bunch of other guys before Jeter goes too far the other way. We all know Jeter's defense wasn't very good, but during the dynasty years it was certainly good enough, and I think the offense he provided at SS compared to what some of his other teammates did relative to their positional peers around the league, was more valuable to the team.
 

terrynever

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Mo and Bernie I mostly agree with (I think it is close between Bernie and Jeter for second), but a bunch of other guys before Jeter goes too far the other way. We all know Jeter's defense wasn't very good, but during the dynasty years it was certainly good enough, and I think the offense he provided at SS compared to what some of his other teammates did relative to their positional peers around the league, was more valuable to the team.
Jeter was fabulous on pop flies all over his side of the field. That may seem trivial but you need a guy who is not afraid to take charge on pops, especially on windy days. Opening day 1996, Jeter made an over the shoulder catch in short left-center that opened some eyes. Shortstops are supposed to take charge and Jeter did, from day one.