Bigger Cog in the Yankee Dynasty...

Who is the bigger cog in the late 90s Yankee dynasty?

  • I'm a Yanks fan and I say Derek Jeter

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • I'm a Yanks fan and I say Mariano Rivera

    Votes: 8 5.2%
  • I'm a Sox fan and I say Derek Jeter

    Votes: 31 20.3%
  • I'm a Sox fan and I say Mariano Rivera

    Votes: 96 62.7%
  • I'm neither a Yanks or Sox fan and I say Derek Jeter

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • I'm neither a Yanks or Sox fan and I say Mariano Rivera

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Forget the other two...I say Bernie Williams

    Votes: 16 10.5%

  • Total voters
    153

SemperFidelisSox

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There was also that crazy, lighting in a bottle run El Duque went on from 98-01 where he went like 9-1 over 14 postseason starts. He was always an underrated player in that dynasty. Pretty much saved the great ‘98 team from going down 3-1 to Cleveland.
 

EvilEmpire

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I loved El Duque (who didn't?). He would be one of my picks for for an "underrated cogs of the Yankee dynasty" thread.
 

terrynever

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Man, the Pandemic is killing this place. A thread about the Yankees’ last dynasty. What’s next? How about 1949-53?
 

BaseballJones

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Man, the Pandemic is killing this place. A thread about the Yankees’ last dynasty. What’s next? How about 1949-53?
It’s a nice reminder that it’s been 20 years since then, and in the span of time since then the Yanks have only won one title while Boston has won four.

(there is that more like SOSH?). :)
 

terrynever

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It’s a nice reminder that it’s been 20 years since then, and in the span of time since then the Yanks have only won one title while Boston has won four.

(there is that more like SOSH?). :)
Yes. Thank God! I get worried about Red Sox fans when there is no baseball. We need more name-calling. Make SOSH Nasty Again.
 

terrynever

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How about Clemens, Pettitte, Stanton and Knoblauch all using steroids and that dynasty should have an asterisk? That better.
Yes. That’s fine. How about the Red Sox facing stiffs in the WS every time they get in? (I am limited as a Yankee fan from saying something nasty. Just visiting.)
 

SemperFidelisSox

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The 2004 Cardinals won 105 games. The ‘07 Rockies had won 7 straight postseason games entering the World Series (10 straight overall). The Cardinals and Dodgers are two of the most successful franchises this century. The Red Sox got far from cupcakes in their four WS appearances.
 

terrynever

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The 2004 Cardinals won 105 games. The ‘07 Rockies had won 7 straight postseason games entering the World Series (10 straight overall). The Cardinals and Dodgers are two of the most successful franchises this century. The Red Sox got far from cupcakes in their four WS appearances.
They rolled over for the Sox. Everyone felt sorry for Red Sox Nation and handed them four titles. The 21st century is starting off very similar to the 20th except the Yanks were blanked until 1923. The Sox got five before the Spanish Flu Jinx hit them hard.
 

Rough Carrigan

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Mo and Bernie I mostly agree with (I think it is close between Bernie and Jeter for second), but a bunch of other guys before Jeter goes too far the other way. We all know Jeter's defense wasn't very good, but during the dynasty years it was certainly good enough, and I think the offense he provided at SS compared to what some of his other teammates did relative to their positional peers around the league, was more valuable to the team.
Yeah, the idea of a completely replaceable Tino Martinez being more important than Jeter is silly. Because Nomar at his peak and Arod were around it's obscured what a huge edge the yankees had in offense from shortstop over the other teams. Someone mentioned O'Neil, too. My god. How much easier is it to find a right fielder to produce like O'Neil than a shortstop like Jeter?
 

InstaFace

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It's Jeter and it's not even that close. Closers don't just throw enough innings to be that valuable. Rivera's highest WAR season was 1996 when he wasn't even the closer.

If you are looking at playoffs only Mo would have a strong case, because he was used more and his post-season numbers were so absurd -- from 96-01 he allowed 7 earned runs in 73.2 IP with 6.383 WPA. But any comparison involving regular season numbers is going to make closers look bad.
Agree. Baseball teams are a combination of a lot of things, but an all-star SS who plays 9 innings and bats 4x most every day is just worth more - a lot more - than a closer who pitches an inning every other game. Even if that closer is the greatest of all time. And I like Mo and sports-hate Jeter, but them's the facts.

He had a lot of saves in the postseason? Great. How many of those were even in position to be saves because of a hit by Captain Intangibles? If Replacement Closer X coughs up a few incremental leads, the Yankees still win half of those games and given how most of those series went, it almost certainly doesn't change things. But Jeter is adding value on a PA-by-PA basis, and we can measure that value. There's no such thing as postseason WAR, but we do know how much bWAR they each accumulated in the 6 regular seasons under discussion: Jeter +33.5 (despite -64 fielding runs), Rivera +20.9. On a per-game basis, Jeter was 60% more valuable during those years.
 
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scottyno

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He had a lot of saves in the postseason? Great. How many of those were even in position to be saves because of a hit by Captain Intangibles? If Replacement Closer X coughs up a few incremental leads, the Yankees still win half of those games and given how most of those series went, it almost certainly doesn't change things. But Jeter is adding value on a PA-by-PA basis, and we can measure that value. There's no such thing as postseason WAR, but we do know how much bWAR they each accumulated in the 6 regular seasons under discussion: Jeter +33.5 (despite -64 fielding runs), Rivera +20.9. On a per-game basis, Jeter was 60% more valuable during those years.
Playoff WPA says hardly any at all, and literally does measure that value on a PA by PA basis. Rivera from 96-01 was 6.38 and Jeter was 0.95 without even factoring in defense
 

jon abbey

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Agree. Baseball teams are a combination of a lot of things, but an all-star SS who plays 9 innings and bats 4x most every day is just worth more - a lot more - than a closer who pitches an inning every other game. Even if that closer is the greatest of all time.
This is true from a bulk value regular season perspective, but as Semper said upthread, the main reason NY went 14-2 in postseason series from 1996-2001 and teams like ATL and CLE and TEX fell short was Mariano. Also keep in mind that they were just six outs total away from 16-0 in series there (plus whatever might have happened next in 1997):

1997: up 2-1 in the ALDS on CLE, leading 2-1 with 2 outs in the 8th, and Mariano gives up the famous Sandy Alomar opposite field flip HR to tie it, CLE ends up winning 3-2 and game 5 4-3 and the series.

2001: game 7 of the WS, up 2-1 with 1 out in the 9th and we all know the rest.

IMO they would have done enough to get to the postseason without Jeter all six seasons (I'm less sure about Bernie) and they went 44-5 in those six seasons in postseason games when they managed to get Mariano in, and 2 of those 5 were games they were losing already and he pitched perfectly. 49 postseason games in 6 seasons, he gave up 7 ERs total in 73.2 IP.
 

brs3

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When Derek Jeter came to the plate in the 9th inning during those years, it seemed like he always found a way on base. Looking at his career splits & splits during those years, that might've been wrong...but it looked that way. Jeter gets on base, sets the pace to inevitably score. However, depending who was behind him, the fear of a Yankee win/comeback depended greatly. He wasn't singularly the biggest threat.

When Rivera came into the game, it really felt like the game was over. From '96-'00, Rivera blew one postseason save over 38 appearances. 19 saves, 29 games finished, 0 losses, 4 holds. In Chapman's entire MFY postseason career to date, he's appeared in 14, finished 12 games, saved 3, lost 2. When Rivera retired, it restored hope that the Yankees would never have a stranglehold on the 9th inning like they did for 2 decades. Rivera in his prime vs Devers would've never resulted in the bomb Devers hit off Chapman, and that warms my heart.

Rivera over Jeter every day. I voted Bernie before opening up b-ref, though, because it looked like he was always putting the MFY on top, but looking more closely at his numbers, it's not entirely obvious. Just looked that way.
 

jose melendez

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I voted because Rivera was the best at what he did by a good margin damn near every year, and Jeter usually wasn't. But the WAR really does emphasize the value of being an every day player. I may need to reevaluate
 

BaseballJones

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How can a Red Sox fan love Rivera so much? Dying to see you come out of the closet, BJ. I bet you started this poll just to get Mariano some more love on a Red Sox board.
Haha. A few reasons...

1. He's truly unbelievable. I can appreciate greatness even in my archrivals.

2. He's a total class act. I've never heard a bad word said about the guy. He is by all accounts a wonderful human being, and it's hard to dislike truly wonderful people.

3. He took extra time to give me and my kid his autograph. 2006, Fenway Park, everyone was screaming for his autograph before the game and he signed a bunch and then said he had to go (which he did). I leaned over and said, "Just one more, Mariano," and held out a pen and paper. He stopped, looked at me and my kid, smiled, and came over and signed it. I said thank you and he just said in the nicest tone, "You're welcome."

4. In 2005 when they revealed the 2004 banner, the crowd gave Mariano a huge cheer. Mock cheer to be sure, but he just smiled and tipped his cap, taking it all in stride.

So it may not be much, but it's really hard to not like such a guy. I mean you've gotta work at it. Everything from his professionalism to his talent to the way he conducts himself, plus a little personal interaction I had with him...all put him right there for me.
 

terrynever

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Haha. A few reasons...

1. He's truly unbelievable. I can appreciate greatness even in my archrivals.

2. He's a total class act. I've never heard a bad word said about the guy. He is by all accounts a wonderful human being, and it's hard to dislike truly wonderful people.

3. He took extra time to give me and my kid his autograph. 2006, Fenway Park, everyone was screaming for his autograph before the game and he signed a bunch and then said he had to go (which he did). I leaned over and said, "Just one more, Mariano," and held out a pen and paper. He stopped, looked at me and my kid, smiled, and came over and signed it. I said thank you and he just said in the nicest tone, "You're welcome."

4. In 2005 when they revealed the 2004 banner, the crowd gave Mariano a huge cheer. Mock cheer to be sure, but he just smiled and tipped his cap, taking it all in stride.

So it may not be much, but it's really hard to not like such a guy. I mean you've gotta work at it. Everything from his professionalism to his talent to the way he conducts himself, plus a little personal interaction I had with him...all put him right there for me.
Mariano was one star athlete who never let us down. I am sure there are many more but Mo had a big spotlight on him and never stumbled, even when he blew big saves.
I suspect that if someone did a study of pro athletes and their lives after sports, we would learn that most of them are really good, productive citizens.
 

tims4wins

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I think all Sox fans like Mo to a degree. We don’t really like Jeter but have something of a healthy respect.
 

SydneySox

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How can a Red Sox fan love Rivera so much? Dying to see you come out of the closet, BJ. I bet you started this poll just to get Mariano some more love on a Red Sox board.
I'll tell you why - when he came out in 2005 and laughed on opening day when Fenway cheered for his blown save.

Guy always seemed too good for the Yankees; like we all felt like he was a nice person who should deserved to be somewhere else.

Unlike CI, who personified Yankee schmaltz.

BTW I voted CI; the weight of a position player overwhelmingly matters vs a closer.
 

mwonow

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How can a Red Sox fan love Rivera so much? Dying to see you come out of the closet, BJ. I bet you started this poll just to get Mariano some more love on a Red Sox board.
He's just one of those guys who, rival or not, you feel good about. For me, Larry Robinson is in that category, too. "Second place" after MFY hate is such a big delta that I hate to even bring it up, but when I was a kid, the Lakers and Habs were there (Pats sucked, so there were no real football rivalries back then), and while the Cs often beat the Lakers, the Habs *always* won. (Fun fact - what do 1970 and 1972 have in common? Bs miss Habs in the playoffs...) And yet, I always 'liked' and respected Big Bird. And not many other Habs. And Mo, and pretty well no other MFYs...
 

Archer1979

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Yes. Thank God! I get worried about Red Sox fans when there is no baseball. We need more name-calling. Make SOSH Nasty Again.
Yeah. We're all joining hands and singing Kumbaya until the laundry hits the field again.

As much as the numbers support Jeter, my gut response would still be Rivera. I'm looking at it from a Red Sox fan lens, but the Sox have had closers who have been great and have had closers that suck. Bad closers tend to suck the air out of the stadium and set a pall over the team for days and day. They are also difficult to replace mid-season. Bad shortstops tend to be replaced by the next Triple-AAA wonderkid.
 
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