Bob Ryan:

pappymojo

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Bob Ryan just made me laugh:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2012/01/29/once_beloved_patriots_are_now_loathed/

I am certain that when Bill Belichick writes his memoirs - and his ego will need to be satisfied with one, don’t doubt that - he will identify this particular team as one of his two or three favorites to coach.
Bob Ryan co-wrote "Drive: The Story of My Life" by Larry Bird and "Hondo: Celtic Man in Motion." I wonder if he would say that either of them had big egos.

The simple fact is that I would love to read Bill Belichick's memoirs. I think that he's very smart and that it would be a very interesting read, namely because it would hopefully provide Belichick's recollections of the very story that Boby Ryan's article is about.
 

TheRooster

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Bob Ryan just made me laugh:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2012/01/29/once_beloved_patriots_are_now_loathed/



Bob Ryan co-wrote "Drive: The Story of My Life" by Larry Bird and "Hondo: Celtic Man in Motion." I wonder if he would say that either of them had big egos.

The simple fact is that I would love to read Bill Belichick's memoirs. I think that he's very smart and that it would be a very interesting read, namely because it would hopefully provide Belichick's recollections of the very story that Boby Ryan's article is about.
You bet he would - particularly in the case of Bird. Ryan is, far and away, my favorite sports scribe due to his ability to remain insightful while still enjoying the games.
 

pappymojo

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Did you gain any insight from the article linked above? It just seems like an unfair attack on Belichick. If Belichick writes a memoir it will be because he has a big ego, like memoirs are solely written as vanity pieces, with no mention of the fact that Bob Ryan has co-written memoirs for other local sports celebrities.
 

dcmissle

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Did you gain any insight from the article linked above? It just seems like an unfair attack on Belichick. If Belichick writes a memoir it will be because he has a big ego, like memoirs are solely written as vanity pieces, with no mention of the fact that Bob Ryan has co-written memoirs for other local sports celebrities.
I did.

I agree the point regarding the biography and ego is a cheap shot uncharacteristic of Ryan. It diminishes the column.

But he is right on that our team is widely despised and universally rooted against, primarily because of Spygate.

I didn't realize the extent of this even two days ago. When the column appeared , I thought, "Here we go; Spygate again." But then I walked around and read around, and he's on the money.

People at a table behind mine at a restauarant, "I do NOT want the Patriots to win this; anyone but them." This in a Redksins town where the Giants are the enemy. Norm Chad, in a column yesterday, "It's Up To You, NY NY".

That's reality. It's even more pronounced than 4 years ago, when fans nationally were still processing the story and awe struck by an undefeated team than was steamrolling opponents week after week.

Well there is nothing historic about this particular Pats team, and nothing special about it except to us. As Ryan notes, this is the kind of team football fans should want to win. But they dearly want it to lose, and I suspect it will be that way at least as long as BB and Brady are together.
 

pappymojo

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I did.

I agree the point regarding the biography and ego is a cheap shot uncharacteristic of Ryan. It diminishes the column.

But he is right on that our team is widely despised and universally rooted against, primarily because of Spygate.

I didn't realize the extent of this even two days ago. When the column appeared , I thought, "Here we go; Spygate again." But then I walked around and read around, and he's on the money.

People at a table behind mine at a restauarant, "I do NOT want the Patriots to win this; anyone but them." This in a Redksins town where the Giants are the enemy. Norm Chad, in a column yesterday, "It's Up To You, NY NY".

That's reality. It's even more pronounced than 4 years ago, when fans nationally were still processing the story and awe struck by an undefeated team than was steamrolling opponents week after week.

Well there is nothing historic about this particular Pats team, and nothing special about it except to us. As Ryan notes, this is the kind of team football fans should want to win. But they dearly want it to lose, and I suspect it will be that way at least as long as BB and Brady are together.
Maybe being in Boston, none of that really struck me as anything new. I already knew everyone hated the Patriots. The article as a whole struck me as something that Ryan could have been written in his sleep. The throw away line about a memoir being ego driven was extra annoying to me because of the simpleness of the article.

Moreso, it rankled me because one of the main reasons I would love to see Belichick write a memoir when he retires is because I want to hear Belichick's side of the Spygate story in detail. My suspicion is that Belichick hasn't fully felt free to speak his mind about the subject because he's still employed by an NFL team.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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The throw away line about a memoir being ego driven was extra annoying to me because of the simpleness of the article.
Prior to Ryan's article, did you think that Belichick was bereft of ego?
 

Marbleheader

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Yes, because Ryan isn't full of himself. I hate that smug, arrogant douchebag with a passion.
 

Mooch

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Apparently Bob Ryan announced on Bill Simmons podcast today that he's retiring after the London Olympics.
 

nattysez

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Apparently Bob Ryan announced on Bill Simmons podcast today that he's retiring after the London Olympics.
I know it's been gone for a long time, but this is officially closes the books on the best-in-the-nation Boston Globe sports section many of us grew up with.
 

Phenom

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I just listened to a lot of the interview...nobody can deny Bob Ryan's passion for the sport of basketball. I could listen to Ryan and Simmons talk NBA/all-time greats all day.

I think this move shows that Ryan is unusually self-aware. There's no doubt that he could continue penning columns for the foreseeable future, but he knows the newspaper business is decaying and the emphasis is now on twitter, blogs, etc. Ryan's not up on the technology. I remember hearing a story that he only recently acquired an ATM card and still doesn't have a cell phone (I think I heard Shaughnessy mention that on a radio spot a while back).

Will the Globe even replace Ryan? If so, will they promote Chris Gasper or will they hire somebody from outside of the market?
 

JGray38

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I like Ryan, sad to see him go. It definitely puts an end to that era when the Globe sports section was a must-read.

You're right about the technology. He's still living in a world of paper. I watched Ryan work on the flight to Indianapolis a few weeks ago (I was just there early in the week for work) - he was across the aisle. No sign of a cell phone. I'm guessing he had a laptop in his bag, but I never saw it. This flight had wifi, but stuff any of us would just refer to on a computer or phone screen was all printed out for him. Tons of printed emails, bits of info and articles from web pages, big and heavy printed and bound media guides, just huge stacks of paper in his bag that he sifted through as he took notes on an old notepad. It all seemed odd to me- converting digital into paper, when the rest of the world is doing the opposite, but old habits die hard.
 

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His retirement is somewhat sad, but he's pretty old. I'm only 26 so I missed him in his prime. I liked him because he wasn't the typical old sportswriter that always said the players were better or cared more or whatever back in the day. He respected athletes no matter when they played and I respected him for not waxing poetic over the old day instead of talking about what was happening. Hopefully he gets bored and either writes a few books or finds a place where he can write a column whenever he feels like it.

Edit: Typo
 

Hyde Park Factor

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My favorite Bob Ryan line ever:

Writing about the '99 All Star Game and Ted Williams' entrance when he tipped his cap to the crowd, "...the wrong cap, thanks to that shameless huckster son of his."
 

JimD

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Bob Ryan may have lost a few miles off his fastball in recent years, but unlike many of his contemporaries he still seems like a guy who loves sports the way his readers do. He was still a must-read for me after big Boston sports events.

Trying to explain the greatness of the Globe sports page in its heyday is like trying to explain what WBCN was like back in the day - you had to be there.
 

RedOctober3829

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Before Twitter, message boards, and other fast-pace social media mediums the only way to get your sports information was through the radio and the newspaper. Bob Ryan was one of those writers that you poured over every word he wrote. He always had the best NBA sources and you legitimately learned something every time you read one of his columns. His passion for the game seeps through your fingers as you turned the page. The media in this day in age is different than what Bob built his career on, so maybe it is time to move on. But, with each Bob Ryan that retires the newspaper business gets worse.
 

Rocco Graziosa

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Bob Ryan may have lost a few miles off his fastball in recent years, but unlike many of his contemporaries he still seems like a guy who loves sports the way his readers do. He was still a must-read for me after big Boston sports events.

Trying to explain the greatness of the Globe sports page in its heyday is like trying to explain what WBCN was like back in the day - you had to be there.
Fantastic analogy. And specifically with the globe was the Sunday edition. I would take half my day laziely pouring over each page, sometimes reading a column twice.

And BCN was to music what the Globe was to Boston Sports. Fantastic lineup and format.............everyone under 40 listened to BCN.

I'm getting very nostalgic remembering the two which sparks memories of my 20's and my apartment on Comm ave. I feel like going to the Ratskeller tonight and then getting slices from Nemos after.
 

E5 Yaz

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Does it bother anyone here that Bob Ryan admitted that he never tweeted, that his Twitter account essentially was ghosted?
Doesn't bother me. Tweeting is useless, save the occasional breaking news headlines with a link to an actual story
 

Toe Nash

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Does it bother anyone here that Bob Ryan admitted that he never tweeted, that his Twitter account essentially was ghosted? Over at the Jim Romenesko Facebook page, there is a what looks to be a generational chasm in the reaction of journalists.

http://jimromenesko.com/2012/02/15/bob-ryan-i-have-never-tweeted/
Twitter can be useful; at its best it's a free-flowing, immediate, democratic conversation (limited to 140 characters at a time, but there's ways to work with that) between media members and their readers, as opposed to comments on a story (which are moderated and stick to a specific story) or e-mails (which aren't public unless the writer re-posts them). At its worst it devolves into flame wars or smarmy bickering.

In Ryan's case it says right on the description that it's a robo-tweet account, and all it consist of is links to his stories. So no, it doesn't bother me that he didn't use it, since he didn't pretend to and it simply existed as a way to keep track of things he wrote for the Globe.
 

Billy Jo Robidoux

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Last night I listened to Bill Simmons' recent podcast with Bob Ryan. It was about an hour long, but I could listen to him talk about the NBA for the rest of time and not get tired of it.

When he retires, I hope he does more fill-in radio hosting on EEI. My favorite radio week of the year is whenever Bob Ryan is hosting for D&C or whoever else is on vacation.
 

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It was announced in the press box tonight that Ryan was working a Red Sox game for the last time. He received a standing ovation from his colleagues similar to the one Youkilis received from the fans. It was a humbling and emotional moment for a great sportswriter.
 

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Ryan wrote a rip job early in the 1975 season (the Sox did not start all that well) that almost got him beat up in the clubhouse. Fortunately, he was wrong about that team.
 

the1andonly3003

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It was announced in the press box tonight that Ryan was working a Red Sox game for the last time. He received a standing ovation from his colleagues similar to the one Youkilis received from the fans. It was a humbling and emotional moment for a great sportswriter.
this got Bob Ryan trending on Twitter last night, which he aptly responded with "What's a tweet?"
 

Toe Nash

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I shouldn't even bother linking this crap, but Bob Ryan hates WAR!!!!
 

Now, even if you are conversant with BRR and FRAA, there remains one little problem in accepting the notion that WAR is a relevant tool with which to evaluate and separate players.
It’s ultimately based on a judgment. It’s not a statistic!
This “replacement player” who constitutes the very linchpin of the entire premise is mythical. There is nothing measurable or precise about his existence. Yet supposedly intelligent people have signed off on this utterly bogus piece of baseball idiocy.
There's plenty measurable and precise about "replacement level," but that doesn't make a "get off my lawn" column. Ryan should be better than this.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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This was a complete mess of a column. I had to read it twice to understand what his point was, which is: I like stats, I just don't like this stat. Replacement player? What tha wha?
 

touchstone033

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What's up with this?
 
 Most of those people are quite taken with what is known in the trade as “analytics.” Or “metrics.” They crunch numbers, and that’s it. To them, voting for any baseball award is superfluous and perhaps even dangerous. I’ll amend that. Voting is definitely dangerous.
 
Where did he get this? Talk about strawman arguments. Although after reading this column, I have to think that Ryan's ill-informed, reactionary opinions make his votes dangerous, and I'm not talking baseball.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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No surer sign that he's lost it than that Sunday column. Very disappointing, as Ryan IIRC was one of the first Globe guys to read Bill James and enjoy his work. Now he's just another bitter old man railing against things he doesn't understand. If this was Cafardo I'd expect it and move on, but to see a former great like Ryan do it is pretty sad.
 

HomeBrew1901

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Bob Ryan doesn't cater to no fancy metrics like small sample size, Lose!
What are you talking about?  He's an early Bill James supporter, he just doesn't like WAR and finds it to be an imperfect "stat" that a lot of folks want to point to as fact. 
 
Edit: The only thing I thought was odd about the column was that it came out a few months after the MVP vote.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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HomeBrew1901 said:
What are you talking about?  He's an early Bill James supporter, he just doesn't like WAR and finds it to be an imperfect "stat" that a lot of folks want to point to as fact. 
 
Edit: The only thing I thought was odd about the column was that it came out a few months after the MVP vote.
 
 
I know he was an early James supporter, I mentioned that in my first post. I found his Sunday column to be hilariously misplaced. He calls it complete nonsense, which is beyond dismissive.
 

HomeBrew1901

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
I know he was an early James supporter, I mentioned that in my first post. I found his Sunday column to be hilariously misplaced. He calls it complete nonsense, which is beyond dismissive.
I don't have a problem with him being dismissive about WAR because he's one of the few writers (especially of his generation) that gets it and has an appreciation for advanced stats as opposed to others that just scoff at anything more than batting average.  At least he backs up his distaste for WAR and why he doesn't like it, you can choose to disagree but it's not like he sticking his nose in the air saying "I don't like it and that's that", he lays out his reasoning.
 
To read the Cabrera/Trout thread from a few months ago there were a number of posters that felt it was an absolute travesty that Cabrera won and shouldn't have been considered MVP based on WAR alone.  That's what I think Ryan is railing against more than anything, the timing of the article is odd though, it's as if he was bored and found that thread and decided to write about it.
 

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HomeBrew1901 said:
I don't have a problem with him being dismissive about WAR because he's one of the few writers (especially of his generation) that gets it and has an appreciation for advanced stats as opposed to others that just scoff at anything more than batting average.  At least he backs up his distaste for WAR and why he doesn't like it, you can choose to disagree but it's not like he sticking his nose in the air saying "I don't like it and that's that", he lays out his reasoning.
 
To read the Cabrera/Trout thread from a few months ago there were a number of posters that felt it was an absolute travesty that Cabrera won and shouldn't have been considered MVP based on WAR alone.  That's what I think Ryan is railing against more than anything, the timing of the article is odd though, it's as if he was bored and found that thread and decided to write about it.
 
But his distaste for WAR is nonsense. He says it's because it's based on a "replacement player" and that guy doesn't exist. Well, how else do you want to figure it? The replacement level is just a point on the scale -- you could certainly figure out an "average" level and have everyone be plus or minus average, or you could compare everyone to Miguel Cabrera 2012 (who is an actual player!) but you'd just be changing where the zero is, mostly. This just isn't a legitimate criticism and the only thing we can infer is that he doesn't really understand the statistic. 
 
There are plenty of things wrong with WAR -- mainly that FG and B-R calculate them differently, but also the uncertainty of the defensive part of it, how it applies to pitchers (FG using DIPS, br incorporating runs allowed) and so on. Had he mentioned those, or something else reasonable I would have no issues. But Ryan is arguing against the concept of replacement level and gives no good reasons. I don't think you can say he's lost it based on just that, but it's a pretty indefensible column. At best he's not expressing himself well at all, at worst, well, he's "lost it."
 

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Right.  I think where Ryan is off is that the ability to point to a "Replacement Level Player" is beside the point for the stat to have value as a comparison tool, which is (IMO, anyway) the purpose of WAR.
 
I mean, saying "It's 20 degrees colder today than yesterday" is a useful measuring tool/statistic,  even though very few people can define what a "degree" is, or how it relates to absolute zero.
 

Orel Miraculous

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I don't think it was a very well-written column, but I think the larger point that too many people blindly rely on WAR has merit and needs to be discussed.  Interestingly enough, Poz had a very relevant little anecdote about WAR today:

 
Zaidi and I were talking about this when he told me something that I found utterly staggering. He said that Oakland’s objective model for measuring a player’s value — remember now, we are talking about the Oakland A’s, the Moneyball people, Jonah Hill and so on — found that Miguel Cabrera, NOT Mike Trout, was more valuable in 2012.
 
Well, that’s not exactly right. He was quick to say that the difference between the two was so slight as to be almost invisible — they were, for an intents and purposes, in a virtual tie. But their system did have Cabrera ahead by the tiniest of margins.
 
WAR is a stat, and, like all stats, it has flaws.  Too many of the loudest Trout supporters last year didn't seem to understand that, and I think that's what Bob was trying to say, even if he did it a little clumsily.
 
 
Edit:  Poz actually has TWO interesting WAR pieces today (there's a reason he's the best, folks), and this one also touches upon Ryan's point about the replacement player doesn't actually exist:

 
I didn't know that Fangraphs and Baseball Reference had slightly different replacement levels. It's a very small difference, but very small differences in a statistic like this -- which is figured to a tenth of a point -- are very important.
 
Sean told me that, for instance, Baseball Reference WAR and Fangraphs WAR have very similar views on the production of Jack Morris. The two figure pitching in different ways -- with Fangraphs relying a lot on walks, strikeouts and home runs while Baseball Reference gives significance to runs allowed --but Sean said their numbers should, more or less, line up. They don't.
 
Fangraphs has Morris being worth 56.9 wins above replacement. Baseball Reference has him at 39.3 WAR.
 
Forman says almost the entire difference is based on the value the two groups give a replacement player.
 

JimBoSox9

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I'll agree with you that WAR has WARts and that the 2012 AL MVP debate had a bit more "there is only ONE possible choice!" rhetoric than usual, but Ryan's premise is absurd.  This problem with WAR is that the "Replacement Level Player" is fictional?  That's not a legitimate criticism, that's a lack of understanding of the purpose of baselines in statistics.  Additionally, he strawmans his opposition quite a bit, as has been pointed out.  
 
I'm not going to ship him off to the glue farm for one clunker by any means, but if he wants to position himself as the Stat-Friendly Old School guy, I expect him to be a little more coherent.  It's always cute when old people think they're being slick and newfangled when really they're operating at a 5th-grade level (I sent an email today!!), but it's not fantastic sportswriting.
 
Edit: Love that Poz story, though.  Much more so than Ryan's Jenkigasm, it does a great job of illustrating why we should be very cautious about any sort of definitive statements using the higher-order stats. 
 
On balance, I don't think the 2012 ALMVP is an example that should be really used for any discussions about stats vs. other, new school/old school, WAR, etc.  It's just too extreme an example to be representative of anything.  On the one hand, you had an Established Star on a Playoff Team who happened to earn the most hallowed of all Old-School hitting achivements.  On the other, you had a Rookie on an Underachieving Team who happened to have an absurd gap between him and the other guy in what is currently the most advanced and controversial statistical way to express the difference between two players in a number.  Cabrera v Trout was designed from the ground up to be a particularly vindictive battle in the war for baseball's soul.  The Antietam of the Sabermetric Revolution, as it were.
 

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http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/07/19/perfectly_happy_to_manage_incredible_16_inning_game/
 
That's a July 2011 column in which Ryan seemingly pats himself on the back for making it through a 16-inning Red Sox/Rays game that ended 1-0, albeit with myriad distractions (like perusing several magazines and two huge Sunday newspapers). Ryan admits that he needs something to help him get through just about any televised game and he says he didn't miss anything during this game because of multiple replays.
 
He says lots of nice things about baseball (and Baseball Prospectus, actually) and how wonderful it is, but the column struck me as odd for a fan of the game to write. 0-0 for 15 innings doesn't get and hold the attention of someone who understands the subtleties of the sport?
 

Mystic Merlin

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Yeah, like, congratulations to Bob Ryan for pointing out to us that every statistic has its limitations.  What's his point, exactly?  That article was a constipated, lazy tantrum - it's his way of acting out, like a child would, against the changing nature of sports analysis.  He doesn't like the new guard.  It's unfamiliar and intimidating to him, which is why he picks at the low-hanging fruit to make obvious points.  He seems to think this article - and those others like it - are a necessary corrective check on the evolution of sports analysis, but it comes off as stupid and retrograde instead.  I'd love to know how long he spent brainstorming and writing this turd.