BOS offered Bogaerts 1/30 additional not to opt out (Heyman report)
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After the recent SS deals that's an insanely ridiculous offer. I don't blame him for being pissed.
What the Sox have been doing with Boegarts and Devers makes me truly hate Chaim Bloom. I know this is not fair.
Assuming this is true, given that it is Heyman, then who should the Sox trade for or sign to play second. I am assuming Story will move to short. I would love Xander to spend his career here, but there is many other ways to skin a cat or in this case win a world series.
Doubt.
This is the same Heyman who said we were interested in freeman
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/jonheyman/status/1503708255129853956?s=21
Also. He is literally a mouthpiece/ spokesman for boras so he should be taken with a truck load of salt.
This is the same Heyman who said we were interested in freeman
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/jonheyman/status/1503708255129853956?s=21
Also. He is literally a mouthpiece/ spokesman for boras so he should be taken with a truck load of salt.
This is a boras mouthpiece we are talking about.
Definitely looks like a direct feed from Boras.
I guess if Boras wants to blow up any chance of a deal for his clients Devers and Bogaerts, telling big lies about Boston's offers is a good way to do that.
I guess if Boras wants to blow up any chance of a deal for his clients Devers and Bogaerts, telling big lies about Boston's offers is a good way to do that.
Huge grain of salt indeed. If true - which I doubt as it’s absurd - it was designed to be rejected … but why would the Sox do that? A legit offer would be 5/25 at a barest minimum
Maybe they were pissed he wouldn’t move off SS and wanted no part of an aging Bogaerts doing his best Derek Jeter impersonation.
Maybe they were pissed he wouldn’t move off SS and wanted no part of an aging Bogaerts doing his best Derek Jeter impersonation.
If Boras is lying, why wouldn’t the Sox call him a liar? What does he have to gain by fabricating from whole cloth?
Right. If he said it I'd find it hard to believe he completely made it up. He gains nothing by doing that.
Maybe it came from the 'friend of Bogaerts' and not the Boras camp. This is the New York Post, after all.
Yeah, sorry. I messed that part up.
Just to be clear, I don't think Boras is lying if he is Heyman's source, which I think is likely.
If you recall Boras's frustration with Varitek signing a team-friendly deal with the Sox rather than letting Boras take him out on the market to get max offers, then Boras could gain by poisoning the waters if Bogaerts is thinking like Varitek did.
I see no way X doesn’t go full FA but I also have zero doubts this is 100% untrue. The FO isn’t this dumb.
Who knows what's true or what's posturing BS, but maybe the Sox braintrust are distracted by soccer, a new team to puck up in Pitt, and redesigning Kenmore Sq. and got Larry Lucchino to come out of retirement to design a Lester-like low-ball offer for X?
they may tell him to cut the crap using backchannels, but they wouldnt do that publicly..
Also Boras probably thinks by floating this out there, he would generate anger among the Loud mouths on BOS sports talk (given the Betts stuff and how they handled that)
I will put more stock in this report if a local beat writer confirms this reporting....
I mean hell look at the headline of his "article"
Now those that took issue with me saying that the Sox have lowballed those two may come around. It’s an embarrassment that it’s gotten to this point with these two players. Bloom is solely looking for surplus value in every deal he makes and it can’t be that way all the time.
Local beat writers don’t get these stories especially in Boston. Look at past history.
It’s an approach that got late career Ainge in trouble. But I don’t really trust Heyman so we’ll see.
It’s certainly not an offer likely to be taken, and is one the player has taken offense too….but isn’t that how these things go? The player has an opt out which he’s clearly going to take, but if he truly wants to stay in Boston, why not counter with what it’s going to take? Seems clear that Boras has taken the strategy of saying his client is insulted and will not negotiate in the season, I guess with the hope that public opinion will pressure the Sox into making an offer which will be good enough to forego free agency? I don’t see that happening, especially now that the Sox have a replacement in Story locked up long term.
We know how Bloom operates. I don’t think he’s going to cave and be overly sentimental about any one player.
We know how Bloom operates. I don’t think he’s going to cave and be overly sentimental about any one player.
If we're comparing across sports, one could argue this approach that has worked very well for Belichick for a couple decades.
But I also trust Heyman about as far as I can punt him.
Let’s wait for a non Boras mouth piece to confirm the reporting then
that Lester offer was many FO’s ago.
Yes. Exactly.
This is the same Heyman who had to throw in the Sox “sign stealing” after the sox and dodgers needed to alter the mookie trade after Graterol’s Medicals came up
View: https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1226279851511996418?
can you take one guess on who Graterol’s agent is?
Also the fact that Heyman is complaining about backing out of a “deal” that was not even Official yet.
But please tell me that Heyman doesn’t have an agenda when he reports on Boras clients.
Example 2
Heyman’s reporting on Bryce Harper
https://www.12up.com/posts/6306570-jon-heyman-seems-to-be-tweeting-whatever-scott-boras-tells-him-to-about-bryce-harper
IOW. I trust Heymans reporting on any Boras client as much as I trust my neighbors dog not to take a dump on my lawn.
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It has. I mean, looking for excess value is a shrewd and proper way to operate. I don’t want a GM who gets taken to school routinely. Bloom is obviously a smart guy who is re-stocking the farm nicely and signed Story when many, including me, were getting nervous. I love Bogaerts but I really am not very interested in his next contract. Letting someone pay big money for his decline years is exactly what BB would do. Devers is the tougher case. He is probably needed more but his price is also higher so he may see the same fate.
This is insane. Even assuming this is true, given the person reporting and the publication he works for, it is not like the Sox are doomed to medocrity if Devers and Bogey leave. Bloom will have roughly 80 million to play with next off season as well as a stacked farm system. Even if Bogey leaves it is very unlikely the Sox won't be competitive come 2023. Bloom is the same guy who found Whitlock, PIvetta, signed Kike, signed Story and probably a whole slew of moves I am forgetting. I would love if Bogey and Devers spends their careers here, but I would love playoff appearances and wins more. There is plenty of good reasons not to sign the two of them and if Bloom goes that route the team will be fine.
The rest of the contract Xander will be opting out of is 4/$80. Offering 4/$90 in response doesn't pass the smell test. If you don't want to improve on the original deal significantly, just don't make an offer.
Can never be sure of course, but it's hard to believe the FO really offered this. I see words like "hate" being thrown around; would really suggest not allowing our collective emotional universes to be manipulated by Jon Heyman, the New York Post and an article whose explicit, stated purpose is to reassure Yankee fans that Red Sox fans have it worse.
Can never be sure of course, but it's hard to believe the FO really offered this. I see words like "hate" being thrown around; would really suggest not allowing our collective emotional universes to be manipulated by Jon Heyman, the New York Post and an article whose explicit, stated purpose is to reassure Yankee fans that Red Sox fans have it worse.
How does the offer look if you don't think Xander is a SS going forward? 4/$90 doesn't seem so egregious for a 3B.
Well he's right there. Post 3 in this thread was "I hate Bloom", nevermind what Murph and Sully will have to say to Felger and Mazz tomorrow.
It's not bad business if you're trying to make damn sure that your client doesn't take an overly friendly deal to the team because vibes are good and some recent deals haven't been market-bending colossi. Piss him off, put the Sox FO on the defensive out of the gate.
Odd attempt to keep things simple and use the current contract framework with a little sweetener at the end. Only makes sense if you think Xander is on the fence about picking up the rest of the contract already, but that hardly seems to be the case.
A lot depends on this season, as a down year at the plate or looking like he can't handle SS much longer will definitely make a major impact. But at the moment, 4/90 certainly seems quite low.
If that's close to where the Sox are at, probably better off not making an offer at all. Just tell Boras you hope he picks up the option and if not, they are interested in negotiating after the season.
A lot depends on this season, as a down year at the plate or looking like he can't handle SS much longer will definitely make a major impact. But at the moment, 4/90 certainly seems quite low.
If that's close to where the Sox are at, probably better off not making an offer at all. Just tell Boras you hope he picks up the option and if not, they are interested in negotiating after the season.
It doesn’t take much to make Boston sports talk go on angry rants. that’s regardless of their success.
They would complain if they don’t extend him and would complain if they do extend him (it’s too much money etc.)
which Is why I don’t buy this “report” from a Boras mouthpiece until it see it confirmed by someone more “reputable” than a reporter who constantly shills for players repped by a certain agent.
Blooms FO is pretty tight lipped on everything. Doesn't mean this is true, just that I don't think Sox would comment on *any* aspect of negotiations ever.
It's a main board thread, but with a terrible title (which I will try to fix now) and not very good content so far. A few things:
If you take a step back and try to look at the situation with a neutral perspective, there's a very good chance that BOS has already essentially replaced Bogaerts with Story (from Bloom's perspective). It's great that guys want to get paid as much as possible, but it's hard to have more than a few of those deals on a contending team, and especially with Mayer and Yorke on the way.
So if BOS don't really want Bogaerts back at the price they know he is expecting (and deserves), this offer makes more sense. It's not quite the same thing but after 2019, Aroldis Chapman had an out on his deal (2/30 remaining) and NY gave him one more year at $18M to not opt out. Bogaerts' potential market is almost certainly much bigger than a very pricy closer, but it's not a completely ridiculous offer.
That being said, it's the kind of offer (if the reporting is correct, which personally I think is quite possible) that you make when you have already made peace with a player leaving, an offer you make as opposed to nothing to try to show your fan base that you at least tried a bit. I don't need pushback on this part, it's not my plan, but again I think it is certainly possible.
The current MLB system makes it really hard to keep your 'homegrown' (I hate this word, players are not plants) players, especially if you have a bunch of them going to FA within a year or two. If a player's sole objective is to maximize their deal, they will often end up on a lousy team (hello Corey Seager). This is a bummer for fans but it's just the way it works now.
Also the NY Post component to this is irrelevant and shouldn't be cited, this isn't a political topic where they have a corporate agenda. This is all Heyman, so put it on him, right or wrong, they're just his (new) employers.
If you take a step back and try to look at the situation with a neutral perspective, there's a very good chance that BOS has already essentially replaced Bogaerts with Story (from Bloom's perspective). It's great that guys want to get paid as much as possible, but it's hard to have more than a few of those deals on a contending team, and especially with Mayer and Yorke on the way.
So if BOS don't really want Bogaerts back at the price they know he is expecting (and deserves), this offer makes more sense. It's not quite the same thing but after 2019, Aroldis Chapman had an out on his deal (2/30 remaining) and NY gave him one more year at $18M to not opt out. Bogaerts' potential market is almost certainly much bigger than a very pricy closer, but it's not a completely ridiculous offer.
That being said, it's the kind of offer (if the reporting is correct, which personally I think is quite possible) that you make when you have already made peace with a player leaving, an offer you make as opposed to nothing to try to show your fan base that you at least tried a bit. I don't need pushback on this part, it's not my plan, but again I think it is certainly possible.
The current MLB system makes it really hard to keep your 'homegrown' (I hate this word, players are not plants) players, especially if you have a bunch of them going to FA within a year or two. If a player's sole objective is to maximize their deal, they will often end up on a lousy team (hello Corey Seager). This is a bummer for fans but it's just the way it works now.
Also the NY Post component to this is irrelevant and shouldn't be cited, this isn't a political topic where they have a corporate agenda. This is all Heyman, so put it on him, right or wrong, they're just his (new) employers.
So are you saying it’s too soon to Hate Bloom and to tie this in with what prior management teams have “done to” Lester and Varitek?
because my wrath is engaged and it is going to take an army to hold it back.
because my wrath is engaged and it is going to take an army to hold it back.
This is an excellent post, jon. The part that’s hard for fans is that it’s coming with both Xander and Devers at the same time, and only a couple years after the Mookie situation. And yes, some people are still upset at the Lester thing, which my understanding was Lucchino-driven.
Personally, I don’t want Bloom signing anybody to 12-year/$400M deals, no matter how much I love the players. But the flip side is that you are essentially running your Jeter, Bernie and Posada out of town. I actually wonder if they move Xander at the deadline instead of losing him for nothing. It seems hard to believe but … it was hard to believe with Mookie as well. And Bloom got a pretty good return.
These negotiation rumor threads are ridiculous. People speculate off allegedly third-hand knowledge, and then imagine future actions based on them. And then they get upset about those.
At the end of the day, the sides are going to have a final offer that's accepted or rejected (perhaps categorically). And part of the rejection would be the player's desire "to test the market" - in short, an unknowable alternative.
At the end of the day, the sides are going to have a final offer that's accepted or rejected (perhaps categorically). And part of the rejection would be the player's desire "to test the market" - in short, an unknowable alternative.
Of course the publication in which the report appears is relevant. The Post’s shitty reputation is based on a lot more than its political bent. It’s not crazy to think a hack like Heyman will be even hackier without whatever adult supervision he had at his prior gigs.
All that aside, I happen to believe this particular report is likely true.
Bloom was in a tough spot. If you believe (as I do) that 5/110 is a fair deal for X, then 4/90 is a reasonable place to start. I think there’s zero chance that X would accept 5/110 and probably would have told Boras we would talk if and when X opts out, but that too would have leaked, and might have been worse — misreading the market is less of an “insult” than telling a player you don’t care if he remains with the team or not.
Btw, I’m the sort of fan who isn’t offended in the slightest by the millions of dollars that players earn. Professional sports is big business. But that goes both ways — a free agent who is “insulted” by an offer that he perceives as below market value deserves no more sympathy than a CEO who feels the same.
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Really? Machado got 10/300 (or if you consider he was 4 years younger than Bogaerts when he got the deal, call it 6/180). Rendon got 7/245 (same age as Bogaerts when signed). Bogaerts may be slightly behind both of those guys as a 3B, but he's not that far behind them. 4/90 is Story AAV at a shorter length. That just doesn't sit right given they just gave Story his deal and they're the same age. At least make it the same length as Story's deal.
I don't buy this report for a second given the messenger, but if it were true, then all I can conclude is the Sox don't want Bogaerts back if that's what they're offering. Too soon and too little information to get upset about it now, though.
I know it’s not your point but the whole “The Red Sox don’t want Xander back” argument seems false. They want—or don’t want—him back at a certain number because of what it means to roster construction.
Based on this (excellent) piece by Chad Jennings in last week’s Athletic, he means a ton to this team and they would be losing a lot in letting him go. I’m sure they know that and were Xander to offer a 2019-style discount, I have little doubt they would jump at the chance. Instead I think Xander probably feels he has been the good soldier up to this point and just wants to earn his market value. I can’t say I blame him.
Absolutely. When I say they don't want him back, I implicitly mean unless it's at their price. It would just appear that if this was their offer, their price isn't anywhere near what it will likely take, discount or not.
And that’s just the way it often works these days. When Robinson Cano was a FA, NY offered him a more than fair 7/175 deal, but his agent (Brodie Van W) got him a ridiculous 10/240 deal from SEA. To no one’s surprise, he was solid for the first 5 years of that deal (4-5 WAR per year) and has fallen off a cliff since. Luckily for the Mariners, the then-Mets GM (the same Brodie Van W) bailed them out of the rest of the shitty contract.
"Wanting" is a two-way street. Regardless of the initial offer, walking away, rather than making a counter-offer could be "construed" (if, say, Boras was working for the *Sox* and leaking stuff to Heyman) as the player saying he "doesn't want to come back." Again, though, as you say, unless it's at *his* price. Both sides have their price. I dont think Bloom will negotiate based on what Felger's callers or Shaughnessy's readers think of him.
Very true. As I said, I don't really buy Heyman's story but if it's true that Bogaerts' side is "insulted" and they didn't counter offer (even with an equally "insulting" high demand), I'm also left to question his commitment to staying. Negotiations are never pretty, and usually involve one side or the other raising a seemingly crazy idea up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes. Maybe that's what this was. Taking it personally and walking away isn't exactly the best reaction.
That’s true for me as well.
i think reactions are amplified by the larger concern, lessened somewhat by Story, of a RaysNorth operation.
If we aren’t going to resign the drafted and developed stars (didn’t say homegrown!) then it’s potentially going to take time for the longer tail of farm led teams to mature.
We’ve got Devers and X for more than this year, which may offer the bridge to Casas/Yorke-Mayer/etc., or maybe Bloom feels the better way to invest going forward is pitching, but it’s hard not to read the tea leaves and see both X and D walking.
That said, I can imagine Bloom finding a way to spend the $60m annual tied up in their theoretical future contracts on better win/$ investments.
Personally, I hope Bloom identifies a better inflection point to sign younger players to long term deals…this seems like a good thing forMLB overall.
Those are examples, but I would argue that X is not quite as good as Machado, and that Rendon contract felt like a bad one from the first day, so I'm not sure those are comps we want to hit.
Additionally, I think people are treating this as if it is a normal FA negotiation, but it's not. X has an opt-out, but he also agreed to the potential of the following years at the current rate back when he signed this deal, and they reflect the Sox taking on the risk at the time. The Sox should be attempting to get a discounted rate if they are extending the current contract, because they aren't negotiating from scratch here, those years are already on the books if he doesn't want to leave, and X has already accrued the value of reducing his risk on the front end. If he does want leave, then he is welcome to do so, and the Sox can make a decision then about whether they want to try and negotiate to sign him as a FA in that market, but that isn't the market for this discussion. They aren't negotiating against anyone else at present, and they shouldn't act like they are.
If the 4/90 part is true, they should be insulted at that offer and I don't blame them for not countering that. That is a Jon Lester-esque type of lowball.
Again. That’s exactly why I don’t buy Heymans report. Until Rosenthal or Passan confirm it, I still stand by my belief this is bullshit being fed to Heyman by Boras. Especially since Heyman has track record for this type of stuff
Judging by what this FO did with Betts, everyone should tend to believe this report Heyman or not. Everyone is too focused on where it came from and not the substance of it. You think it's BS because you don't want to believe they would offer Bogaerts such an unbelievably low deal. Bogaerts himself on the record confirmed that the two sides were way off a couple of weeks ago. It doesn't take much to put 2 and 2 together.