Brian Flores suing NFL, Giants over "sham" Rooney rule - "mistakenly" (?) sent Belichick text may be linchpin

[amfox1]

If he lost the Saints and Texans jobs and filed the suit then, then people would say he's just having sour grapes. He looks much better here doing it now.

I don't think this makes Flores look good. He waited until he lost his HC job and then decided to air the dirty laundry he's obviously known about the entire time. If I'm an owner, why would I ever hire Flores for an important job. He obviously cannot be trusted to be a team player.

As to the NYG, it was pretty obvious when Schoen was hired that one of the BUF coordinators (and likely Daboll, because they wanted to retain Graham as DC) was going to get the job. Since they were always going to interview Graham and Frazier, there was never going to be a Rooney Rule issue.

 

[nattysez]

The good news for Flores is that a lot of coaches are more amenable to coaching in college now that recruiting can be more open in terms of the financial incentives boosters can offer thanks to the new NIL rules. Hopefully he can find a landing spot in college if he's blackballed by the NFL.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I'm not a litigator, but I don't think I've ever seen a complaint that led with an epigraph (let alone 2).

This whole complaint is written in very flowery "for the public" language. Leading off with an epigraph and the Black History month. A paragraph about the "angry Black man" trope?

Some interesting allegations in there, but the intent here might just be to embarass the league?

 

[thestardawg]

Well it appears bb is no Mona Lisa Vito of texting

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

I can't imagine BB is very happy that a private text message that makes him look a little foolish is one of the more material pieces of evidence in a legal case. It pisses off the owners, the league, and is going to - at a minimum - at least be at an arms length from being involved with a lengthy legal battle.

I'd think hes kind of pissed at Flores.

This was my first reaction as well. The only possible way BB would be cool with that text thread seeing the light of day would be if he gave permission for it, and he'd have to know that giving permission for that would reinforce his Darth Vader persona at Park Avenue.

I know we all love to think BB lives to tweak the shield, but I think it's the opposite. He honors the league and its history. I'm sure he's not pleased with some of the sham fines and suspensions, but when the league comes after him it's an enormous inconvenience that makes it harder for him to win football games.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

I don't think this makes Flores look good. He waited until he lost his HC job and then decided to air the dirty laundry he's obviously known about the entire time. If I'm an owner, why would I ever hire Flores for an important job. He obviously cannot be trusted to be a team player.

Umm, what? What should he have done, gone public with the news that Ross was asking him to tank games while he still worked there? He's a rookie head coach in a league that is ruthless on coaches, what do you think his options were at that point? And should he not have aired it now because doing so makes him not a team player?

 

[BroodsSexton]

So will this be consolidated with the Gruden lawsuit? That would be so much fun.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

This whole complaint is written in very flowery "for the public" language. Leading off with an epigraph and the Black History month. A paragraph about the "angry Black man" trope?

Some interesting allegations in there, but the intent here might just be to embarass the league?

I'm not a civil rights litigator, but I think legally the complaint has some problems and suspect that it is designed to try to get discovery or to make a PR statement. It is very difficult lawsuit and not really a class action.

For the most part the complaint is based on new articles and statistics without really having any actual facts. It recycles stories about Kap and it even tries to piggy back on a separate lawsuit about the league's method for deciding how to challenge CTE compensation claims.

The only real substantive factual allegations in there relate to the Dolphins pretextual firing and the Giants' pretextual interview. On the first, discrimination is really hard to prove and the complaint is probably not even ripe yet because you typically have to go through the EEOC first. On the second, the only piece of evidence that he has is the Belichick text and I doubt Bill is going to testify that he knew for 100 percent certain that Daboll was the guy -- just that he had heard they were really high on him and the Giants are going to argue that Belichick was mistaken.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Spitballing here ... but if Flores got the Giants job (or the Bears job, where he apparently also interviewed), how would the Ross allegations have seen the light of day?

 

[canderson]

I am not completely clear on why the tampering is here (aside from the Dolphins).

 

[radsoxfan]

My guess is that generally Flores is the guy acting correctly/getting the short end of the stick.

My guess is also that he is quite likely submarining his career in NFL coaching.

Owners aren't all friends but they also don't want this kind of stuff to get out. Unless they all hate Ross/Mara and just don't care, I find it hard to see them singing off on a Flores hire at this point. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Bongorific]

I'm not a civil rights litigator, but I think legally the complaint has some problems and suspect that it is designed to try to get discovery or to make a PR statement. It is very difficult lawsuit and not really a class action.

For the most part the complaint is based on new articles and statistics without really having any actual facts. It recycles stories about Kap and it even tries to piggy back on a separate lawsuit about the league's method for deciding how to challenge CTE compensation claims.

The only real substantive factual allegations in there relate to the Dolphins pretextual firing and the Giants' pretextual interview. On the first, discrimination is really hard to prove and the complaint is probably not even ripe yet because you typically have to go through the EEOC first. On the second, the only piece of evidence that he has is the Belichick text and I doubt Bill is going to testify that he knew for 100 percent certain that Daboll was the guy -- just that he had heard they were really high on him and the Giants are going to argue that Belichick was mistaken.

This ain’t my area either, but does he have to go through EEOC if NFL has anti-trust or whatever other special exemptions?

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I'm not a civil rights litigator, but I think legally the complaint has some problems and suspect that it is designed to try to get discovery or to make a PR statement. It is very difficult lawsuit and not really a class action.

For the most part the complaint is based on new articles and statistics without really having any actual facts. It recycles stories about Kap and it even tries to piggy back on a separate lawsuit about the league's method for deciding how to challenge CTE compensation claims.

The only real substantive factual allegations in there relate to the Dolphins pretextual firing and the Giants' pretextual interview. On the first, discrimination is really hard to prove and the complaint is probably not even ripe yet because you typically have to go through the EEOC first. On the second, the only piece of evidence that he has is the Belichick text and I doubt Bill is going to testify that he knew for 100 percent certain that Daboll was the guy -- just that he had heard they were really high on him and the Giants are going to argue that Belichick was mistaken.

So Flores is blowing up his career for a PR stunt, maybe? Ugh.

 

[bankshot1]

I look forward to the NFL's investigation of the allegations of tanking to protect the integrity of the shield and what steps it might take against rogue owners threatening the integrity of the product or a promising new source of income.

 

[Harry Hooper]

In case you missed it, Ian O'Connor's column back on Jan. 22nd about Flores and the Giants talks about his growing up in NYC area.

 

[E5 Yaz]

I look forward to the NFL's investigation of the allegations of tanking to protect the integrity of the shield and what steps it might take against rogue owners threatening the integrity of the product or a promising new source of income.

... and the Patriots losing a second-round draft pick

 

[mauf]

Good for Flores for doing this despite what it might cost him reputationally in the league.

Edit: I should clarify, good for him for getting this out there regardless, but it shows particular courage to do so at the potential risk of future coaching gigs. I don't know which way this will go. The NFL definitely looks bad as a league if he's blackballed over this, but I don't know that individual owners care, and we are talking about the league that collectively turned its back on Kaepernick over kneeling.

In terms of whether or not Flores nuked his career here, the owners only give a shit about the league's reputation insofar as it impacts their individual franchise or TV ratings. This isn't going to impact TV ratings even a little. None of them outside of Ross and Mara care about the Dolphins or Giants taking a hit here and none of them are going to hire Flores because they want to make the league look less racist. And more than a few of them will never hire Flores because they are either full-fledged or casual racists to begin with, and now they probably think Flores is the uppity black guy airing the league's dirty laundry instead of being grateful that Ross gave him a job to begin with. It is hard enough for minority candidates to get these jobs in the first place, I think this without a doubt decreases his chances of getting another head coaching job in the league.

Ross offering him money to tank games is something. Flores absolutely understands how rare these opportunities are, particularly for a black coach. Your owner offering you money to lose, and then getting pissed at you for winning games when this might be your only shot is some fucked up shit.

Edit: Clarity

QFT. I think it’s likely that Flores won’t work in the NFL again. At a minimum, it’s a distinct possibility. Some folks are seriously underrating his courage.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

It was Brady Ross wanted to tamper with. In Miami for the SB after the ‘19 season.

View: https://twitter.com/inthistown1/status/1488631247752605697?s=21

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

So Flores is blowing up his career for a PR stunt, maybe? Ugh.

No! I do not think he did it as a stunt. I think, though, it's very likely that he did it not to win it but to try to affect real and positive change.

 

[Red Averages]

BB manages to wash Brady’s retirement announcement out of the headlines within hours….

 

[canderson]

I look forward to the NFL's investigation of the allegations of tanking to protect the integrity of the shield and what steps it might take against rogue owners threatening the integrity of the product or a promising new source of income.

Draft lottery? They could sell the tv rights and make major coin.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Josh should hire him as the Raiders DC.

 

[amfox1]

Umm, what? What should he have done, gone public with the news that Ross was asking him to tank games while he still worked there? He's a rookie head coach in a league that is ruthless on coaches, what do you think his options were at that point? And should he not have aired it now because doing so makes him not a team player?

So, what exactly do the Ross allegations have to do with the class action claims? Is he alleging that a white HC would not have been asked to tank or would not have been asked to assist in tampering? Of course not.

 

[bankshot1]

Draft lottery? They could sell the tv rights and make major coin.

Gambling.

If its proven there is tanking sanctioned by owners, it would follow that legalized gambling takes a hit.

 

[Pedro's Complaint]

I'm assuming Belichick accidentally texted Flores instead of Daboll. I'm also assuming Belichick is embarrassed and/or annoyed that the texts are public, but he's neither the one who did something seriously wrong nor the one who stands to win or lose in a major way.

If Flores believes the Rooney Rule isn't helping minority candidates and is staking his own NFL livelihood on pointing out how the policy doesn't help minority candidates, then I applaud him. That's what this looks like to me with the info we have so far. In terms of timing, he just lost one job and may believe he's not about to get another one for 2022. I get it.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I don't know about Flores as a person but on the surface, this is a pretty courageous move as @mauf notes. Many of us work in industries where a lot of people move around and work with each other. Talking "out of school" regardless of the topic is a quick way to limit your career. Flores is doing more than that of course.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

So, what exactly do the Ross allegations have to do with the class action claims? Is he alleging that a white HC would not have been asked to tank or would not have been asked to assist in tampering? Of course not.

The Ross allegations are in there to support his discharge claim.

You are not wrong, though, that they are logically inconsistent with his discrimination claim, because they present a basis for firing that is not on account of race. Ordinarily, you would not plead a theory for termination that is not based on race because that tends to undermine your claim. But here the lawyers probably thought about it pretty strategically. If you're the Dolphins here what do you do?

"We didn't fire him because he was black, we fired him because he refused to cheat" is a tough defense. So, the allegations put them in a bit of a box.

 

[bosockboy]

I don't know about Flores as a person but on the surface, this is a pretty courageous move as @mauf notes. Many of us work in industries where a lot of people move around and work with each other. Talking "out of school" regardless of the topic is a quick way to limit your career. Flores is doing more than that of course.

This era’s Curt Flood.

 

[Rico Guapo]

Josh should hire him as the Raiders DC.

Love this idea.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

So, what exactly do the Ross allegations have to do with the class action claims? Is he alleging that a white HC would not have been asked to tank or would not have been asked to assist in tampering? Of course not.

What does that have to do with him being a team player or not? In your opinion what would a team player do when the owner asked him to tank games?

The Ross allegations are heinous regardless of race, but he was absolutely asking a rookie black head coach to do something that was going to make it harder for him to get another job, in a league where minority coaches don't get many shots. And then fired him, and put him in a position of keeping his mouth shut if he wanted to work again, or exposing the heinous conduct. That you think he should have kept his mouth shut and the owners are justified in viewing him as not a team player because he's didn't is frankly crazy to me.

 

[bankshot1]

Josh should hire him as the Raiders DC.

With the brain drain in Foxboro, BB should give him a call.

 

[radsoxfan]

Josh should hire him as the Raiders DC.

Raiders friend just texted me exactly this.

Depends how his relationship was with Josh I guess.

Mark Davis one of the owners that might be fine with it.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Good for Flores for speaking up. If he felt that the interview process is a sham, he's doing God's work in bringing it to light.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

So, what exactly do the Ross allegations have to do with the class action claims? Is he alleging that a white HC would not have been asked to tank or would not have been asked to assist in tampering? Of course not.

My guess is that the idea is that the team was using him. "Throw games (we'll even throw you a few bucks!), help us get Brady, then you can go fuck yourself." If white coaches get more opportunities than black ones, he's being offered $100K per game to light his career on fire. I don't know that it all holds together, but I think that would be the basic allegation.

 

[soxhop411]

NFL statement
View: https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1488641322382733314

“Diversity is core to everything we do, and there are few issues on which our clubs and our internal leadership team spend more time. We will defend against these claims, which are without merit."

Yah. We know that this statement is bull. Why would you need the Rooney rule? and why would you need to bribe teams with draft picks for when a team hires away a minority coach? if you (and the owners as a whole) cared about diversity

 

[sodenj5]

NFL quickly siding with ownership is not a shock.

View: https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1488643379542077442?s=21

 

[jmcc5400]

BB texting like Raymond Holt is just Tremendous.

And I’m glad Flores is fighting the league on this, but I think the situation is going to get ugly.

I think the point of Flores's lawsuit is that it *is* ugly and the allegations paint a pretty stark portrait of what we all should recognize as institutionalized racism. It would have been easy for him to keep his mouth shut and collect seven figure paychecks as a coordinator and await his eventual next chance at a head coaching gig. This lawsuit took a ton of courage to bring. Good for him.

 

[Gash Prex]

Wouldn’t it be a non starter to hire Flores right now in the NFL given he has named all the teams as potential defendants?

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Raiders friend just texted me exactly this.

Depends how his relationship was with Josh I guess.

Mark Davis one of the owners that might be fine with it.

Al Davis would've done it in a heartbeat, is my guess

 

[Super Nomario]

1) Bill hears that the Giants are hiring "Brian," thinks it's Flo, and tells Flo, only to realize that he was confused about which Brian the Giants had decided to hire.

Belichick mentions he heard from Buffalo. That's a pretty clear indication he thinks he's talking with Daboll.

I don't think this makes Flores look good. He waited until he lost his HC job and then decided to air the dirty laundry he's obviously known about the entire time. If I'm an owner, why would I ever hire Flores for an important job. He obviously cannot be trusted to be a team player.

I don't think it's fair to say he waited. Daboll was named 2 days ago. Flores interviewed 5 days ago. These Belichick texts are from 8 days ago. I assume these documents take some time to put together. When exactly did you want him to come forward here?

As to the NYG, it was pretty obvious when Schoen was hired that one of the BUF coordinators (and likely Daboll, because they wanted to retain Graham as DC) was going to get the job. Since they were always going to interview Graham and Frazier, there was never going to be a Rooney Rule issue.

If it's true the Giants had made up their mind by last Monday 1/24 (when BB sent the texts), then Frazier's interview 1/22 would not meet the Rooney Rule, as it was virtual. Frazier didn't have an in-person interview until 1/28. Graham didn't interview in person until 1/26, Flores until 1/27. Graham wouldn't meet the Rooney Rule anyway, as he was not an external candidate.

 

[BroodsSexton]

I'm not a civil rights litigator, but I think legally the complaint has some problems and suspect that it is designed to try to get discovery or to make a PR statement. It is very difficult lawsuit and not really a class action.

For the most part the complaint is based on new articles and statistics without really having any actual facts. It recycles stories about Kap and it even tries to piggy back on a separate lawsuit about the league's method for deciding how to challenge CTE compensation claims.

The only real substantive factual allegations in there relate to the Dolphins pretextual firing and the Giants' pretextual interview. On the first, discrimination is really hard to prove and the complaint is probably not even ripe yet because you typically have to go through the EEOC first. On the second, the only piece of evidence that he has is the Belichick text and I doubt Bill is going to testify that he knew for 100 percent certain that Daboll was the guy -- just that he had heard they were really high on him and the Giants are going to argue that Belichick was mistaken.

You're incorrect in a number of areas, and might want to dial back your opinions--especially since you're very well regarded around here in areas where you do have experience. Whether or not he needs a right to sue letter (and I'm not sure he does, since he's suing under 1981), he has state law discrimination claims in any event. He has almost certainly alleged a prima facie case of discrimination to trigger McDonnell Douglas burden shifting analysis that does apply under Title VII:

McDonnell Douglas:

1. that the employee belongs to a racial minority;
2. that the employee applied and was qualified for a job for which the employer was seeking applicants;
3. that, despite the employee's qualifications, the employee was rejected; and
4. that, after the employee's rejection, the position remained open and the employer continued to seek applicants from persons of complainant's qualifications.

The complaint is targeted at alleging a prima facie case of disparate treatment. The whole purpose of pleading like this is to get into discovery and bring out the facts.

I think you may be correct that it will be difficult to certify a class, since every individual is going to have different dynamics surrounding his non-hiring. But, it's going to depend on the evidence.

EDIT: Paragraph 25 says that he plans to amend with a Title VII claim after getting a right to sue letter.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

It was Brady Ross wanted to tamper with. In Miami for the SB after the ‘19 season.

View: https://twitter.com/inthistown1/status/1488631247752605697?s=21

Would Brady have faced any consequences for showing up on that yacht to meet with Daboll and Ross? Seems it takes two to tamper, at least in practice. If it turns out it was definitely Brady, the timing of Brady's retirement on the same day Daboll drops a lawsuit discussing an unnamed QB that he was being asked to recruit (and said unnamed QB had no issue with showing up to the yacht) seems really, really coincidental, or something.

 

[amfox1]

What does that have to do with him being a team player or not? In your opinion what would a team player do when the owner asked him to tank games?

The Ross allegations are heinous regardless of race, but he was absolutely asking a rookie black head coach to do something that was going to make it harder for him to get another job, in a league where minority coaches don't get many shots. And then fired him, and put him in a position of keeping his mouth shut if he wanted to work again, or exposing the heinous conduct. That you think he should have kept his mouth shut and the owners are justified in viewing him as not a team player because he's didn't is frankly crazy to me.

Teams tank and teams tamper, in nearly every sport. Doesn't make it right, doesn't excuse Ross as a shitty person/owner. The only reason to put this into a lawsuit is to embarrass the shield and MIA, specifically. He could have filed a lawsuit alleging discrimination without putting the pictures of every coach, GM and owner in it. The lawsuit is real and necessary, but everything else, including the Ross allegations, is just for PR purposes.

 

[pappymojo]

So, what exactly do the Ross allegations have to do with the class action claims? Is he alleging that a white HC would not have been asked to tank or would not have been asked to assist in tampering? Of course not.

Possibly that Ross was bad mouthing him to the rest of the owners/General Managers in the league, and that because of what Ross has said the rest of the league not only didn't hire him for positions where he was qualified but also forced him to go through with sham interviews where he had no shot at being hired just as some token reference to diversity.

In other words, the league black listed him because of what Ross was saying about him, where Ross was in fact the bad guy - tampering & trying to lose games.

 

[Gdiguy]

NFL quickly siding with ownership is not a shock.

View: https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1488643379542077442?s=21

This makes me even more confident that the allegations are true

If it was completely out of nowhere, they could just as easily have said 'we will investigate these claims and determine if anything improper has happened', and then a month from now after the Super Bowl on a Friday release a 'we've investigated these claims and we can't corroborate them' press release. To deny them this soon to me means that they know they're largely true and it's more important to deny and cover up than it is to actually let anything get publicly known

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Teams tank and teams tamper, in nearly every sport. Doesn't make it right, doesn't excuse Ross as a shitty person/owner. The only reason to put this into a lawsuit is to embarrass the shield and MIA, specifically. He could have filed a lawsuit alleging discrimination without putting the pictures of every coach, GM and owner in it. The lawsuit is real and necessary, but everything else, including the Ross allegations, is just for PR purposes.

The reality is Flores knows he's lighting his career on fire here, but that speaks to the cesspool that is the NFL ownership and administration, and I could not disagree more that Flores looks bad here, and I have no clue what it means that you don't think he was a team player, or what a team player would have or should have done. Yes the complaint has a lot of PR aspects to it, but the NFL and the owners do not deserve even the smallest benefit of the doubt, and it oftentimes takes someone like Flores being willing to accept the consequences in order to effect change. Knowing that he was putting his career at risk, he went in with both guns blazing. Good on him.

 

[JM3]

Would Brady have faced any consequences for showing up on that yacht to meet with Daboll and Ross? Seems it takes two to tamper, at least in practice. If it turns out it was definitely Brady, the timing of Brady's retirement on the same day Daboll drops a lawsuit discussing an unnamed QB that he was being asked to recruit (and said unnamed QB had no issue with showing up to the yacht) seems really, really coincidental, or something.

Very Belichickian.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

View: https://twitter.com/schadjoe/status/1488641606223806466?s=21

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

The reality is Flores knows he's lighting his career on fire here, but that speaks to the cesspool that is the NFL ownership and administration, and I could not disagree more that Flores looks bad here, and I have no clue what it means that you don't think he was a team player, or what a team player would have done here. Yes the complaint has a lot of PR aspects to it, but the NFL and the owners do not deserve even the smallest benefit of the doubt, and it oftentimes takes someone like Flores being willing to accept the consequences in order to effect change. Knowing that he was putting his career at risk, he went in with both guns blazing. Good on him.

Yup, the reality is that everything that happened behind closed doors that Flores is airing now, was already known by every single owner in the league. Not specifics that would reflect poorly on ownership but every owner sure as shit has been delivered a message through whatever channels the billionaire's club operate in that Flores is difficult, not a team player, etc etc.

And frankly, re: PR components, if you aren't bringing a top-notch PR game then you have no chance of at least winning the narrative game when the league comes back with bigger guns blazing.

 

[Harry Hooper]

I recall Dick Van Dyke's line to his tv son Ritchie many years ago< "Look, Ritchie, when you cheat to win, that's naughty, but when you cheat to lose... it's ridiculous."