Brian Flores suing NFL, Giants over "sham" Rooney rule - "mistakenly" (?) sent Belichick text may be linchpin

[sodenj5]

Am I wrong in saying this case is almost entirely going to hinge on BB's testimony? Who told him the Giants hiring plans, and when? We always assume he's playing 4D chess, all the time. But if someone who didn't really know WTF they were talking about reached out to him, and he jumped the gun in texting whichever Brian he was meaning to text, it falls apart, right? Doesn't seem like tanking and speculation about whether Elway was hungover 3 years ago will be enough to move the needle.

I would feel pretty bad for Flores if he’s gone out on this limb, which took a tremendous amount of courage, because he was under the assumption that he had no shot at the Giants job because Bill Belichick got bad intel and doesn’t know how to text.

The Giants have clearly refuted both Flores and Belichick’s claims that the decision was made prior to his interview and that his interview was very much for real.

He spent 6+ hours at the facility meeting 13 different members of the staff, front office, and ownership. This wasn’t a meeting at a Marriott on the Jersey Turnpike for an hour or two so they could hire Daboll the next day.

 

[Marciano490]

Giants just released a statement and provided a full itinerary of Flores’s interview.

https://www.giants.com/news/statement-from-the-new-york-giants-february-3

Giants playing the “we’d never do something stupid in hiring a coach” is a strong play, especially after Judge.

 

[cornwalls@6]

I would feel pretty bad for Flores if he’s gone out on this limb, which took a tremendous amount of courage, because he was under the assumption that he had no shot at the Giants job because Bill Belichick got bad intel and doesn’t know how to text.

The Giants have clearly refuted both Flores and Belichick’s claims that the decision was made prior to his interview and that his interview was very much for real.

He spent 6+ hours at the facility meeting 13 different members of the staff, front office, and ownership. This wasn’t a meeting at a Marriott on the Jersey Turnpike for an hour or two so they could hire Daboll the next day.

Yeah, I've been less and less and bullish on the suit for the last 2 days. My own pre-existing bias against the league, and desire to see them take a big hit on this issue, had me all in when it was initially announced. And I absolutely admire Flores' conviction. But can't lie, I'm having big misgivings that a very bright, talented young coach might be sabotaging his career, with little personal gain to show for it, and with the very real issue of the atrocious record of minority hiring in the league largely unchanged.

 

[AlNipper49]

I would feel pretty bad for Flores if he’s gone out on this limb, which took a tremendous amount of courage, because he was under the assumption that he had no shot at the Giants job because Bill Belichick got bad intel and doesn’t know how to text.

The Giants have clearly refuted both Flores and Belichick’s claims that the decision was made prior to his interview and that his interview was very much for real.

He spent 6+ hours at the facility meeting 13 different members of the staff, front office, and ownership. This wasn’t a meeting at a Marriott on the Jersey Turnpike for an hour or two so they could hire Daboll the next day.

They also interviewed two other minority candidates, 3 out of the 6. One was their current DC who doesn’t qualify for the Rooney because he was an in-house candidate.

 

[cornwalls@6]

They also interviewed two other minority candidates, 3 out of the 6. One was their current DC who doesn’t qualify for the Rooney because he was an in-house candidate.

And they can make a credible argument that hiring a veteran OC/QB guy was the best move to A.) determine if Dimes is their guy going forward or, B.) for Daboll to coach and develop the next guy. I hope this isn't right cause, wrong example.

 

[Bread of Yaz]

I would feel pretty bad for Flores if he’s gone out on this limb, which took a tremendous amount of courage, because he was under the assumption that he had no shot at the Giants job because Bill Belichick got bad intel and doesn’t know how to text.

The Giants have clearly refuted both Flores and Belichick’s claims that the decision was made prior to his interview and that his interview was very much for real.

He spent 6+ hours at the facility meeting 13 different members of the staff, front office, and ownership. This wasn’t a meeting at a Marriott on the Jersey Turnpike for an hour or two so they could hire Daboll the next day.

Do we know this for a certainty? The Giants could already have made their decision to retain Daboll before they met Flores and Daboll (and never told either), and the Flores interviews were a sham, or an attempt to suck information out of him, or a kick the tires session in case Daboll set off alarm bells, or some combo of all three.

 

[sodenj5]

And they can make a credible argument that hiring a veteran OC/QB guy was the best move to A.) determine if Dimes is their guy going forward or, B.) for Daboll to coach and develop the next guy. I hope this isn't right cause, wrong example.

And they also just fired a Belichick disciple and may have determined they ultimately wanted to go in a different direction with their new coach.

There’s a number of reasons and the Giants don’t have to justify why they decided on Daboll. They only need to show that Flores’ interview was a legitimate opportunity.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

I don’t think Flores is necessarily really trying to win this case and win a bunch of money. He’s looking to get this conversation into the media and maybe air some dirty laundry. He knew he was potentially flushing his coaching career by doing this, and hopefully his lawyers were honest with him about his chances of winning. He’s trying to be a catalyst for change, which is probably harder than winning the case.

 

[sodenj5]

Do we know this for a certainty? The Giants could already have made their decision to retain Daboll before they met Flores and Daboll (and never told either), and the Flores interviews were a sham, or an attempt to suck information out of him, or a kick the tires session in case Daboll set off alarm bells, or some combo of all three.

The Giants are saying that they interviewed Flores in person before Brian Daboll and didn’t make a decision until a full day after they interviewed Daboll.

Saying that they were trying to extract info from him is a little bit too tin-foil hat for me.

 

[sodenj5]

I don’t think Flores is necessarily really trying to win this case and win a bunch of money. He’s looking to get this conversation into the media and maybe air some dirty laundry. He knew he was potentially flushing his coaching career by doing this, and hopefully his lawyers were honest with him about his chances of winning. He’s trying to be a catalyst for change, which is probably harder than winning the case.

The problem is if the systemic racism that Flores is combatting is based off some poor intel that he got and not actual racism or discrimination, he not only has jeopardized his career and has a lot of egg on his face, but he makes it much harder for someone else to blow the whistle in the future.

I am not trying to dispute Flores’s other claims against Ross trying to get him to tank, etc. but his class action suit appears to have some holes in it unless there are some corroborating texts or emails.

 

[finnVT]

The Giants are saying that they interviewed Flores in person before Brian Daboll and didn’t make a decision until a full day after they interviewed Daboll.

Saying that they were trying to extract info from him is a little bit too tin-foil hat for me.

Just a nitpick, but I don't think this is quite right-- the Daboll interview was before Flores'. Daboll 1/25, Flores 1/27. Their statement is that they interviewed Flores before making a decision to go with Daboll (on 1/28), and that the Belichick text was before the Daboll interview (sent 1/24, I believe).

Per the Giants, the interview schedule is described here-- https://www.giants.com/news/head-coach-search-track-giants-latest-interviews

 

[sodenj5]

Just a nitpick, but I don't think this is quite right-- the Daboll interview was before Flores'. Daboll 1/25, Flores 1/27. Their statement is that they interviewed Flores before making a decision to go with Daboll (on 1/28), and that the Belichick text was before the Daboll interview (sent 1/24, I believe).

Per the Giants, the interview schedule is described here-- https://www.giants.com/news/head-coach-search-track-giants-latest-interviews

You’re right, I read the timeline wrong. Daboll interviewed in person before Flores did, however the text Bill sent was before either Daboll or Flores interviewed in person.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

The problem is if the systemic racism that Flores is combatting is based off some poor intel that he got and not actual racism or discrimination, he not only has jeopardized his career and has a lot of egg on his face, but he makes it much harder for someone else to blow the whistle in the future.

I am not trying to dispute Flores’s other claims against Ross trying to get him to tank, etc. but his class action suit appears to have some holes in it unless there are some corroborating texts or emails.

This is nonsensical. Flores isn’t going to be able to prove or disprove the existence of systemic racism in the NFL in this lawsuit. On top of which, there’s really no disputing it exists, and in and of itself it doesn’t give rise to actionable claims. He’s trying to shine a light on the fucked up way the NFL goes about things. There are surely weaknesses in his case and things that will be hard to prove. He knows this. It isn’t why he’s going down this road.

 

[sodenj5]

This is nonsensical. Flores isn’t going to be able to prove or disprove the existence of systemic racism in the NFL in this lawsuit. On top of which, there’s really no disputing it exists, and in and of itself it doesn’t give rise to actionable claims. He’s trying to shine a light on the fucked up way the NFL goes about things. There are surely weaknesses in his case and things that will be hard to prove. He knows this. It isn’t why he’s going down this road.

He’s suing because he felt that he wasn’t given a legitimate opportunity at the job and because he was only brought in to appease the Rooney Rule.

The Giants are saying that’s false and they say they have evidence, which I’m assuming are likely internal emails discussing the candidates.

So Flores is shining a light on the poor hiring practices, which certainly exist, but not in his particular case according to the Giants. You can see how this starts to quickly fall apart here.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

He’s suing because he felt that he wasn’t given a legitimate opportunity at the job and because he was only brought in to appease the Rooney Rule.

The Giants are saying that’s false and they say they have evidence, which I’m assuming are likely internal emails discussing the candidates.

So Flores is shining a light on the poor hiring practices, which certainly exist, but not in his particular case according to the Giants. You can see how this starts to quickly fall apart here.

Oh, according to the Giants everything was kosher? I mean what else are they going to say at this point?

Flores’ case may very well have holes but (a) that doesn’t mean that he will fail to meet whatever objective he has by bringing it, and (b) that the Giants or any other team in the NFL have earned the benefit of thr doubt on the statements they issue in the face of these things.

I’m sure the Giants and Dolphins can circle the wagons here, and as we’ve seen the NFL is a formidable foe. That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth it for Flores.

 

[snowmanny]

I’m with soden on this. 1 in 32 proves Flores’ point. But saying Elway was hungover or that he knows the Giants had decided something based on double hearsay from
a coach on another team seem like pretty shaky assertions and both are vulnerable to being effectively refuted. They might weaken the actual argument, which, again, is 1 in 32.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Giants playing the “we’d never do something stupid in hiring a coach” is a strong play, especially after Judge.

... and Schurmer ... and McAdoo

 

[Jinhocho]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/03/brian-flores-claims-giants-decision-to-hire-brian-daboll-was-made-with-bill-belichicks-influence/

Lost me on this one. I am sure BB talked Flores up as well in various settings - you back the guys in your tree/give references.

 

[Super Nomario]

And they can make a credible argument that hiring a veteran OC/QB guy was the best move to A.) determine if Dimes is their guy going forward or, B.) for Daboll to coach and develop the next guy. I hope this isn't right cause, wrong example.

This isn't a good argument that the NYG ran a legit search process, because they interviewed Daboll and 5 DC/defensive coaches. If they prioritized hiring a "veteran OC/QB guy," the candidate pool should have included other offensive minds and not just Daboll.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Looks like Flores will not be the DC for the Pats any time soon.

 

[BringBackMo]

You’re right, I read the timeline wrong. Daboll interviewed in person before Flores did, however the text Bill sent was before either Daboll or Flores interviewed in person.

You’ve been getting important, basic facts wrong in posts in which you express your concerns that Flores may not understand what he’s doing or the ramifications of his actions, or that he may have acted rashly based on information that he didn’t understand was flawed.

You said that his interview with the Broncos was what got him on the radar screen years later for the Miami job, thereby validating the effectiveness of the Rooney Rule. That was demonstrably not the case.

Now you have posted that Flores interviewed for the Giants job in person before Daboll did, which you interpret as evidence that he was a legitimate candidate for the Giants job because the team hadn’t made up its mind prior to interviewing him. That was demonstrably not the case. Daboll was interviewed first.

Of course, the order of the interviews doesn’t actually tell us anything about whether Flores legitimately had a shot at the job. Many posters in this thread have given examples from their companies in which a preferred candidate was identified prior to the start of the interview process. Nor is it in any way exculpatory that, as you later pointed out, BB’s text was sent prior to the start of interviews. If anything, it simply lends credence to the idea that the Giants had made up their mind prior to the interview process. After all, BB’s info proved spot on.

You are, of course, welcome to your opinions about whether Flores was the victim of systemic racism, and whether systemic racism exists at all in the NFL. But there is some irony that, in posting about your worries that Flores may not fully understand what he’s doing, and may be going on flawed information, you keep using as your evidence misstatements of fact.

 

[Gash Prex]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/03/brian-flores-claims-giants-decision-to-hire-brian-daboll-was-made-with-bill-belichicks-influence/

Lost me on this one. I am sure BB talked Flores up as well in various settings - you back the guys in your tree/give references.

“I think there are back channel conversations and back channel meetings that are had that oftentimes influence decisions,” Flores told Jay Williams of NPR’s podcast The Limits. “I think [the Giants hiring process] is a clear example of that. Bill Belichick is a clear example of that. His resume speaks to that. It was clear to me that decision was made with his influence. That’s part of the problem. That needs to change. There needs to be a fair and equal opportunity to interview and showcase your abilities to lead and earn one of those positions.”

Flores implicating BB as part of the problem is…a take.

Is he mad that BB potentially recommended Daboll over him (Flores)? is he suggesting it’s because he is black?

what does his “resume speaks to that” mean? If BB did recommend Daboll, why does that need to change ?

 

[ManicCompression]

If the Giants were going to give Flores a half-assed interview just to check a box... and they already knew that they were going to hire Daboll before doing that... and we know that coaching hires are very competitive... also that Daboll was an "in-demand" coaching prospect... why would they wait two days to get it out of the way and three days to make the hire? Why would they risk losing the guy they really wanted by waiting that long? And why would they give Leslie Frazier a second interview on the 28th if they were closed off to anyone but Daboll? Why would you waste time on a second, unnecessary interview to a not-serious candidate?

The Giants are very illogical, yes, but you really have to move these puzzle pieces around to see what their motivations would be for that chain of events. It requires a lot of risk on the Giants part to loser their guy for literally no gain. It's tough for me to wrap my head around them going through all those theatrics just for show.

I'm in agreement that there's an issue with the coaching demographics in the NFL, but it seems possible that this specific situation may not be the best example of what needs to be improved.

 

[cornwalls@6]

This isn't a good argument that the NYG ran a legit search process, because they interviewed Daboll and 5 DC/defensive coaches. If they prioritized hiring a "veteran OC/QB guy," the candidate pool should have included other offensive minds and not just Daboll.

That can absolutely be a good argument for their final decision. I’m not taking a position one way or another on whether they’re telling the truth, but interviewing offensive and defensive guys, with them ultimately deciding the offense/QB issues were the decider, doesn’t, I don’t think, preclude a legit interview process.

 

[cornwalls@6]

Flores implicating BB as part of the problem is…a take.

Is he mad that BB potentially recommended Daboll over him (Flores)? is he suggesting it’s because he is black?

what does his “resume speaks to that” mean? If BB did recommend Daboll, why does that need to change ?

So much for him going to the pats as DC, and then successor to Bill. He seems to be burning that bridge, between releasing the texts in the first place, and now insinuating Bill favored, and campaigned for Daboll over him. However this shakes out, he wasn’t lying about being all in.

 

[Sox and Rocks]

And they can make a credible argument that hiring a veteran OC/QB guy was the best move to A.) determine if Dimes is their guy going forward or, B.) for Daboll to coach and develop the next guy. I hope this isn't right cause, wrong example.

This is exactly what it's starting to look like. The NFL's hiring practices are clearly flawed, and real change that isn't the Rooney Rule is needed. So Flores' main contention is correct, but it's also obvious. His throwing dirt on everyone and everything, though, is weakening his case, not helping it.

I'm an English Professor at a small college. I teach, among other things, courses in composition and logic. In evaluating my student's writing, I'm routinely telling them, "You have a strong thesis, but the evidence you're using isn't strong enough to support it, or at the very least, it isn't directly connected to your thesis." It's starting to feel like that here...

 

[Harry Hooper]

If the Giants were going to give Flores a half-assed interview just to check a box... and they already knew that they were going to hire Daboll before doing that... and we know that coaching hires are very competitive... also that Daboll was an "in-demand" coaching prospect... why would they wait two days to get it out of the way and three days to make the hire? Why would they risk losing the guy they really wanted by waiting that long? And why would they give Leslie Frazier a second interview on the 28th if they were closed off to anyone but Daboll? Why would you waste time on a second, unnecessary interview to a not-serious candidate?

The Giants are very illogical, yes, but you really have to move these puzzle pieces around to see what their motivations would be for that chain of events. It requires a lot of risk on the Giants part to loser their guy for literally no gain. It's tough for me to wrap my head around them going through all those theatrics just for show.

I'm in agreement that there's an issue with the coaching demographics in the NFL, but it seems possible that this specific situation may not be the best example of what needs to be improved.

I believe the candidates were doing an initial Zoom interview and an in-person interview, so Frazier getting the second (in-person) interview is part of that process. Plus, the Giants weren't losing Daboll given his connection to the new GM for the Giants

 

[jose melendez]

This is nonsensical. Flores isn’t going to be able to prove or disprove the existence of systemic racism in the NFL in this lawsuit. On top of which, there’s really no disputing it exists, and in and of itself it doesn’t give rise to actionable claims. He’s trying to shine a light on the fucked up way the NFL goes about things. There are surely weaknesses in his case and things that will be hard to prove. He knows this. It isn’t why he’s going down this road.

I think if they actually went through discovery and then to trial, he would almost certainly prove systematic (as opposed to systemic) racism in the NFL. NFL front offices may have some really smart guys, but they pretty clearly also have a lot of pretty dumb guys--at least about things other than football--and are lead by disconnected rich guys. There is no damn way that there isn't a paper trail. The NFL's strategy is always to settle before it gets to that point. Even if Flores has a weak case, the NFL will try very, very hard to pay for this to go away.

 

[Justthetippett]

Flores implicating BB as part of the problem is…a take.

Is he mad that BB potentially recommended Daboll over him (Flores)? is he suggesting it’s because he is black?

what does his “resume speaks to that” mean? If BB did recommend Daboll, why does that need to change ?

My take on his comments was that the process needed to change in that you can’t have guys outside the formal process (BB) somehow having an undue influence. What he didn’t say, but we can infer, is that having these kinds of outside influences will likely disproportionately affect minority candidates who are historically outside the upper echelon coaching fraternity. It’s the old boys network, and he wants to burn it down. Good for him. I’d love to see an owner who wasn’t a coward hire him.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I swear this isn't trolling. But I've had both Miami and Buffallo fans mention it, so I've gotta ask...

What's the chances the Patriots somehow get punished because of the BB text?

 

[E5 Yaz]

What's the chances the Patriots somehow get punished because of the BB text?

Always have a fall guy

 

[HomeRunBaker]

You’re right, I read the timeline wrong. Daboll interviewed in person before Flores did, however the text Bill sent was before either Daboll or Flores interviewed in person.

Isn’t this likely to be fairly common? If you’re a GM of a struggling team and you’re looking to make a coaching change……you very likely know what your pecking order looks like and if you don’t you really should. The interviews should be more of a formality in many cases. Take Las Vegas for example…..Ziegler worked with Mcadaniels for the past decade in New England and Denver. When he received permission to interview Josh I’m certain that Belichick sent a text to someone saying that Josh was getting the Raiders job before the interview. That isn’t racism. That isn’t discriminating against anyone. It was a text stating what everyone knew whether it was Josh or Daboll. The interview was the formality and the Rooney Rule made Flores interview a sham bc from the sounds of things he didn’t have any chance at the job. This isn’t uncommon when you are forced to interview a candidate who isn’t really a candidate.

 

[EvilEmpire]

“I think there are back channel conversations and back channel meetings that are had that oftentimes influence decisions,” Flores told Jay Williams of NPR’s podcast The Limits. “I think [the Giants hiring process] is a clear example of that. Bill Belichick is a clear example of that. His resume speaks to that. It was clear to me that decision was made with his influence. That’s part of the problem. That needs to change. There needs to be a fair and equal opportunity to interview and showcase your abilities to lead and earn one of those positions.”

With regard to the bolded from Flores, isn't it likely that BB went to bat for him when he interviewed for the Miami job? If so, was he wrong to do that?

With regard to the Giants, both guys worked for BB previously. He's a reference on their previous work. The Giants certainly didn't let BB make the decision for them on who to hire, but as a reference with a tremendous reputation of his own, I would hope that the Giants reached out to him. And if so, BB having a little influence on the process doesn't seem strange or inappropriate.

I just can't imagine that BB had more than a small amount of influence on the Giant's final decision.

Edit: Just to be clear, I think Flores going after the NFL is admirable, and obviously at great risk to his career. But I also think the spread on his shotgun blast may be a little wide, almost certainly with regard to hitting BB.

2nd Edit: Of course maybe BB didn't previously help Flores get a job with a division rival, and Flores knows it.

 

[Devizier]

I That isn’t racism. That isn’t discriminating against anyone.

There are some really great posts coming from respected posters in this very thread that explain what structural racism is and how it applies in this instance.

 

[snowmanny]

Yes, for example, four of the coaches considered the best in the league are Belichick, McVay, Harbaugh, and Shanahan. They all could be considered recipients of some sort of nepotism or connections, except they are all damn good; nobody would say it is unfair they have their jobs. What they all had was master classes in coaching basically from birth. Until there are Black coaches and executives in decent numbers all through the NFL and all through college and all through high school the odds of this sort of path producing a great Black NFL coach are lower than it is for whites. Now that’s only four of the 31, but it is still a piece of the equation.

 

[BroodsSexton]

Yes, for example, four of the coaches considered the best in the league are Belichick, McVay, Harbaugh, and Shanahan. They all could be considered recipients of some sort of nepotism or connections, except they are all damn good; nobody would say it is unfair they have their jobs. What they all had was master classes in coaching basically from birth. Until there are Black coaches and executives in decent numbers all through the NFL and all through college and all through high school the odds of this sort of path producing a great Black NFL coach are lower than it is for whites. Now that’s only four of the 31, but it is still a piece of the equation.

Some would say the odds are better with the black head coaches actually in the NFL right now.

 

[Dahabenzapple2]

It absolutely is. But, as my company has been educating our workforce on since the summer of last year, this practice is what leads to less diverse teams. It's natural for people to associate with those who are most "like them", and it feeds a loop where one knows a lot of similar people and then hire them for jobs. I realize 'good ol' boy network' is a loaded term. It takes a lot of work, and some bit of risk, to hire outside one's comfort zone.

Another by-product of hiring people you “know” or are “more comfortable with” is you get more stagnation, inertia and more people who think the same way. Get less innovation, less free thought and almost zero new ideas. You get more of the same garbage that you always got. Like John Mara continuing to hire bad coaches & GM’s. The Gettleman hire was a classic example.

The industry I’m in is a pathetic example of no new blood, hardly any minorities or woman. Most of these assholes still refer to the “girl” in the office.

Last time I was at a convention for my industry the moment I got to the convention center I could “smell” the good ol’ boy network. Old men, old ideas and most of them all protecting each other into retirement. The last thing they’re doing is hiring a 20 something year old black dude to do the purchasing or to sell their PVC pipe. A woman?!?! They still look at her as an inferior sex.

 

[Shaky Walton]

I swear this isn't trolling. But I've had both Miami and Buffallo fans mention it, so I've gotta ask...

What's the chances the Patriots somehow get punished because of the BB text?

What would the penalty be for? Deficient texting? I think the chances are zero.

It's almost funny to think about Bill conspiring with Flores to send a "mistaken" text to help buttress Flores' claims, and if the hiring team was the other resident of Exit 16W Stadium, it might have raised an eyebrow. Maybe. But the Giants are not an organization Bill would seemingly want to target. And the whole idea is beyond the pale, given that Bill is made to look careless here.

The conspiracy angle is the ONLY path I can see to punishment of Bill/NE, and it's clearly a huge reach.

Punishment in the Pats direction seems impossible for even the brain dead turd otherwise known as Roger Goodell.

 

[snowmanny]

Some would say the odds are better with the black head coaches actually in the NFL right now.

I’m
Not sure what you’re saying. If you’re saying that the average Black coach in the NFL right now is better than the average white coach then I agree with you.

 

[lexrageorge]

Isn’t this likely to be fairly common? If you’re a GM of a struggling team and you’re looking to make a coaching change……you very likely know what your pecking order looks like and if you don’t you really should. The interviews should be more of a formality in many cases. Take Las Vegas for example…..Ziegler worked with Mcadaniels for the past decade in New England and Denver. When he received permission to interview Josh I’m certain that Belichick sent a text to someone saying that Josh was getting the Raiders job before the interview. That isn’t racism. That isn’t discriminating against anyone. It was a text stating what everyone knew whether it was Josh or Daboll. The interview was the formality and the Rooney Rule made Flores interview a sham bc from the sounds of things he didn’t have any chance at the job. This isn’t uncommon when you are forced to interview a candidate who isn’t really a candidate.

I think one of the issues here is that this particular instance may not have been the result of systemic racism. It's quite possible that Flores was fired because of continued clashes with the owner and GM, but the media leaks after the firing were much more aggressive in dumping on Flores than typical.

And there have been many times I've interviewed candidates for a position, came away impressed with one who instantly became my top choice, but continued interviewing other candidates until the position was filled as a "just in case". And so proving that the Giants interview of Flores was a sham is going to be difficult if not impossible. Maybe they were just following the letter of the Rooney rule, but maybe they were like "You know, Daboll is clearly the guy, but let's do our due diligence and follow up with Flores as he's got a solid reputation and the type of guy we want to maintain a connection with for the future." I agree this happens all the time in the business world and is often nothing more than due diligence as opposed to a sham interview process.

However, the broader issue is that you have non-entities like Kliff Kingsbury securing head coaching positions while successful assistants like Flores, Leftwich, and Bienemy keep getting passed over. And at least some of that is due to the fact that you do have people hiring people that they know or are like them.

EDIT: Flores aiming at Belichick is not going to help his cause, but it's not clear to me that he was actually accusing Bill of doing anything wrong. It sounds like he was just using him as an example of how references among a small circle of insiders can perpetuate the systemic racism problem.

 

[NomarsFool]

The blaming Belichick part I find pretty irritating. At this point in time, Flores has produced no evidence to suggest that BB did anything wrong. As part of their hiring process, the Giants should speak to people who have worked with the candidates they are considering. We don't even know (nor does Flores) what BB told them. He could have told them Flores was better, about the same, or that Flores was a poorer candidate. Under any of those circumstances, I would have expected BB to reach out to the successful candidate to congratulate them. The fact that the Giants asked for this information (supposedly - we don't even know they did) before interviewing Flores is not improper for them, and certainly not for BB.

The GIants are being accused of making a decision before interviewing Flores. BB didn't make that decision.

 

[ManhattanRedSox]

The blaming Belichick part I find pretty irritating. At this point in time, Flores has produced no evidence to suggest that BB did anything wrong. As part of their hiring process, the Giants should speak to people who have worked with the candidates they are considering. We don't even know (nor does Flores) what BB told them. He could have told them Flores was better, about the same, or that Flores was a poorer candidate. Under any of those circumstances, I would have expected BB to reach out to the successful candidate to congratulate them. The fact that the Giants asked for this information (supposedly - we don't even know they did) before interviewing Flores is not improper for them, and certainly not for BB.

The GIants are being accused of making a decision before interviewing Flores. BB didn't make that decision.

This is where I land as well. Why on earth would the Giants let BB convince them to hire a talented OC out of the AFC East? Why would the Giants even care what BB thinks - beyond a superficial "plays well with others" comment? Would the owners secretly huddle with BB and lockout their brand new GM out of this key decision? Dragging BB can be fun sometimes because he's a curmudgeon, but this is absurd.

I'm all on Team Flo regarding this sham of an interview and hope the NFL treats it as seriously as it did underinflated footballs in New England winter, but insinuating that BB has some influence on another team's ownership and GM decision-making is just dumb.

 

[jsinger121]

If anything I would think that BB would want to recommend Daboll for the Giants job as it would clearly weaken an opponent in the division with a QB that Daboll basically helped turn into a star. If I was in BB’s position with his competitive drive I would have probably done the same.

 

[Shaky Walton]

If anything I would think that BB would want to recommend Daboll for the Giants job as it would clearly weaken an opponent in the division with a QB that Daboll basically helped turn into a star. If I was in BB’s position with his competitive drive I would have probably done the same.

Indeed, my first reaction to the news was "good, fuck Buffalo."

 

[wiffleballhero]

View: https://www.npr.org/2022/02/03/1077927110/brian-flores-on-taking-a-stand-against-the-nfl


I don't have much to add beyond the link since I'm just listening to it now.
NPR's "The Limits" Jay Williams

edit: this increasingly feels like a good example of a situation where Belichick can do another F-U to the league and rehire Flo. He absolutely should.

 

[ManicCompression]

I believe the candidates were doing an initial Zoom interview and an in-person interview, so Frazier getting the second (in-person) interview is part of that process. Plus, the Giants weren't losing Daboll given his connection to the new GM for the Giants

Yeah, it's part of the process if they were interested in hiring him. As I understand it - and correct me if I'm wrong - they're under no obligation to do multiple interviews with "Rooney Rule" candidates. It would seem that they had legitimate interest in Leslie Frazier as a head coach.

Then, supposedly on the same day Daboll was offered the job, the Dolphins requested to interview Daboll a second time. Logically, one would think that this is the event that precipitated their decision to make him coach. If it that was already made on the 24th, they could've made that job offer much earlier.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Flores is frustrated by the fact that so much of how people get head coaching jobs in the NFL is based on networks, who you know, and who recommends you. He's not saying BB did anything "wrong" necessarily, but I'm sure BB's recommendation carries a lot of weight, particularly with the Giants, and he's reacting to that. Does it help his case? Probably not, but saying "I'm team Flo" but then not being team Flo when he points out Bill's influence in these situations might help not hurt the cause, is kind of bogus.

I love BB, but he gave two of his sons jobs because they were his sons and has promoted them up the ladder to the point where they have influential roles in his coaching staff. Nepotism hires like that are part of the problem. I don't blame Bill for doing it because it is the way things have been done in the league forever, look how many sons of coaches end up becoming coaches, sometimes even head coaches. And of course Bill's motivation in hiring his sons isn't racist, but hiring practices like that perpetuate inequality, and are part of the problem.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

There are some really great posts coming from respected posters in this very thread that explain what structural racism is and how it applies in this instance.

Choosing the coach that you want to coach your team isn’t necessarily structural racism as it also eliminates white coaches that you don’t want running your team. You can’t blindly tag every decision as structural racism without any evidence race was involved. That’s preposterous and a dangerous hill to climb

 

[BringBackMo]

This is exactly what it's starting to look like. The NFL's hiring practices are clearly flawed, and real change that isn't the Rooney Rule is needed. So Flores' main contention is correct, but it's also obvious. His throwing dirt on everyone and everything, though, is weakening his case, not helping it.

I'm an English Professor at a small college. I teach, among other things, courses in composition and logic. In evaluating my student's writing, I'm routinely telling them, "You have a strong thesis, but the evidence you're using isn't strong enough to support it, or at the very least, it isn't directly connected to your thesis." It's starting to feel like that here...

What evidence are you using to support this contention?

 

[tims4wins]

I don't really get Flo's take on BB's influence being problematic. He was a former boss of both Daboll and Flores. Teams SHOULD be talking to him about their performance, etc. That's how recommendations work. Maybe that has led to structural racism in this country, I dunno. But references are important in pretty much every walk of life, no?