Bruins Acquire Garnet Hathaway and Dmitry Orlov

Haunted

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I do remember that both Kane and Toews has pretty terrible responses to the Kyle Beech thing. Basically the complete opposite of how the bruins locker room responded to Mitchell Miller being brought in.
This is the "decider" for me and what I keep going back to regarding my hostility towards bringing Kane in. I want no one who had anything to do with that situation.
 

Hector Salamanca

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That's almost assuredly true, but their head coach and one of their goaltenders are "from" Maine, too. (Montgomery just missed overlapping with Weinrich at UMaine.)

Weinrich is only a few years older than me. I used to play youth hockey in Yarmouth, Maine as a kid and I remember seeing him skate a few times before or after my games/practices. He really stood out and I loved following his college and NHL careers.
I grew up in Yarmouth playing football with Eric's son and our families spent a decent amount of time together - great, great guy. Think they still live there.

On topic, I come to this forum to see how I should feel about moves like this and glad to see I should be thrilled.
 

Myt1

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Jeez, I don't even want to go back and read my takes on the Cassidy firing with the benefit of hindsight.

Every point DeBrusk puts up reminds me again of how little we actually know about what's going on in the room.
I’ll have you all know that I was completely OK with the Cassidy firing . . .

. . . because I thought this might be a rebuilding year playing more of the kids.:unsure:

In everyone else’s defense against @Frisbetarian ’s light-hearted teasing, team sure looks a shitload different with your top two centers playing for beer money.
 

burstnbloom

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Jeez, I don't even want to go back and read my takes on the Cassidy firing with the benefit of hindsight.

Every point DeBrusk puts up reminds me again of how little we actually know about what's going on in the room.
This is how I feel too. We have so much more information than we had back then. Given what we knew at the time and the clumsy fucking way Sweeney handled it publicly, feels like a pass is reasonable.
 

biff_hardbody

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Apr 27, 2016
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That's almost assuredly true, but their head coach and one of their goaltenders are "from" Maine, too. (Montgomery just missed overlapping with Weinrich at UMaine.)

Weinrich is only a few years older than me. I used to play youth hockey in Yarmouth, Maine as a kid and I remember seeing him skate a few times before or after my games/practices. He really stood out and I loved following his college and NHL careers.
I grew up in Yarmouth playing football with Eric's son and our families spent a decent amount of time together - great, great guy. Think they still live there.

On topic, I come to this forum to see how I should feel about moves like this and glad to see I should be thrilled.
I grew up in Yarmouth in the 90s and though I never played hockey I was working around the Portland Pirates when Eric Weinrich was the captain. Small world!

Anyway, really happy with this move.
 

BaseballJones

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Like most/all here, I’m excited about this trade. But I’d anyone even just a tiny bit concerned about a change in team chemistry being a negative? They SEEM like they’d fit right in, but the team absolutely was a wagon before the trade, and swapping out some players DOES change team chemistry, even just a little.

Or is this totally nothing at all to worry about?
 

Ferm Sheller

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Like most/all here, I’m excited about this trade. But I’d anyone even just a tiny bit concerned about a change in team chemistry being a negative? They SEEM like they’d fit right in, but the team absolutely was a wagon before the trade, and swapping out some players DOES change team chemistry, even just a little.

Or is this totally nothing at all to worry about?
I'm not worried at all, and haven't even give it any thought until now. Smith was a popular teammate, I'm sure, but it's not like he was the glue that kept the group together. Orlov and Hathaway are physical guys who you don't like to face as opponents (Hathaway even boarded Marchand once, so they have some history), but they don't seem to be assholes at all off the ice.
 

cshea

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They’ll be fine. It’s a veteran team that’s been through this before. Smith seemed like a popular guy in the room but in all honesty he’s probably going to a better situation for him. When they were healthy he was a regular healthy scratch. That was probably coming again once Nosek was healthy. Now he gets a chance to play and I wouldn’t be surprised if WSH flips him by next week to a playoff contender.

Guys are going to lose ice time on defense, no question about it. They have 7 NHL regulars (8 if you want to include Zboril) right now. Forbort and Grzelyck are probably going to lose time with Orlov coming on board but they will be fine. Monty has already sat the defense all down and explained how they will need everyone to get where they want to go.
 

cornwalls@6

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Like most/all here, I’m excited about this trade. But I’d anyone even just a tiny bit concerned about a change in team chemistry being a negative? They SEEM like they’d fit right in, but the team absolutely was a wagon before the trade, and swapping out some players DOES change team chemistry, even just a little.

Or is this totally nothing at all to worry about?
Not concerned at all. I’m always a believer in adding as much talent as possible. The rest will work out. These move’s absolutely improve the team, and further address what had been a major playoff weakness in recent years, not being heavy and physical enough. I’m even more excited to watch this team play down the stretch.
 

wiffleballhero

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And it was also just a one player turnover, not something that seems like a major move in the feel of the locker room. And Smith was pretty obviously a guy likely to not find a chair when the music stopped (those healthy scratches were a bit of a sign, no?)

Monty has already sat the defense all down and explained how they will need everyone to get where they want to go.
This also seems like not just an exercise in trying to make everyone feel good. The NHL playoffs are such a grind, and with the run of back to backs, it seems like 7 defenders is hardly too many.
 

burstnbloom

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Regarding the chemistry questions, I think its a factor but even in a worse case scenario, the talent add far outweighs whatever effect it could have. Hathaway (piece of shit) helps them create a legitimate shutdown 4th line. He's a very good defender. Foligno, Nosek-Hathaway is a group you can bury against a second line like Toronto's, for example, and likely play them to a draw. That's huge. Orlov is a massive Forbort upgrade. Talent matters.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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One thing that's nice is neither Grz nor Forbort are playing for a new contract this summer which could have theoretically caused some discontent.

They are so laser-focused on the mission right now and the on-ice fit is so good in both cases that I have no concerns about negative locker room effects.
 

cornwalls@6

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Regarding the chemistry questions, I think its a factor but even in a worse case scenario, the talent add far outweighs whatever effect it could have. Hathaway (piece of shit) helps them create a legitimate shutdown 4th line. He's a very good defender. Foligno, Nosek-Hathaway is a group you can bury against a second line like Toronto's, for example, and likely play them to a draw. That's huge. Orlov is a massive Forbort upgrade. Talent matters.
Honestly asking, is it strictly on ice stuff that makes you call Hathaway a piece of shit?
 

burstnbloom

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Honestly asking, is it strictly on ice stuff that makes you call Hathaway a piece of shit?
haha yes I guess this day in age you have to clarify. He's just a dirty piece of shit on the ice but he's our piece of shit now. By all accounts hes a sweetheart off the ice, of course.
 

RG33

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Reading about Bergeron going to Craig Smith’s hotel to thank both him and his wife for the contributions to the team and wish them well in DC makes me love the man even more. Such an incredible leader who sets the tone in that locker room and who has set the tone for two decades in that building (along with Z). I never want him to retire, I’ll gladly deal with him being 60 and slow but still winning faceoffs.
 
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Frisbetarian

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They’ll be fine. It’s a veteran team that’s been through this before. Smith seemed like a popular guy in the room but in all honesty he’s probably going to a better situation for him. When they were healthy he was a regular healthy scratch. That was probably coming again once Nosek was healthy. Now he gets a chance to play and I wouldn’t be surprised if WSH flips him by next week to a playoff contender.

Guys are going to lose ice time on defense, no question about it. They have 7 NHL regulars (8 if you want to include Zboril) right now. Forbort and Grzelyck are probably going to lose time with Orlov coming on board but they will be fine. Monty has already sat the defense all down and explained how they will need everyone to get where they want to go.
I'm hoping most of the time lost comes from Forbort. Matt Grzelcyk has long been a binkie for me; he's a analytics dream ;) When the team signed John Moore, I remember making a comment like, "That's a lot of years, but a decent annual salary. But where is he going to play? Grzelcyk is better."

Over his career, Matt Grzelcyk has been on the ice for 261 goals for and just 146 goals against in 5 on 5 situations, a goal for percentage of 64.1%, the best in the league by a considerable margin. Over the last almost 3 seasons, since the start of 2020-21, those numbers are 144 goals for and 71 goals against (67.0%), again the best in the league for defensemen with over 1500 5 on 5 minutes in that period (187 players). Grzelcyk has elite expected goal on ice numbers, as well. In pretty much every system I looked at, he is right around or just over a 60% XGF% for both his career and the last 3 years. This also puts him at or very close to the top of all defensemen (top 3 pretty much everywhere). Very good things happen when Grzelcyk is on the ice.

For reference sake, a team that scores 60% of the total goals in all their games would be expected to finish with ~130 points. I can show my work if anyone's interested, but it's fairly long and relatively boring.
 

cshea

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I'm hoping most of the time lost comes from Forbort. Matt Grzelcyk has long been a binkie for me; he's a analytics dream ;) When the team signed John Moore, I remember making a comment like, "That's a lot of years, but a decent annual salary. But where is he going to play? Grzelcyk is better."

Over his career, Matt Grzelcyk has been on the ice for 261 goals for and just 146 goals against in 5 on 5 situations, a goal for percentage of 64.1%, the best in the league by a considerable margin. Over the last almost 3 seasons, since the start of 2020-21, those numbers are 144 goals for and 71 goals against (67.0%), again the best in the league for defensemen with over 1500 5 on 5 minutes in that period (187 players). Grzelcyk has elite expected goal on ice numbers, as well. In pretty much every system I looked at, he is right around or just over a 60% XGF% for both his career and the last 3 years. This also puts him at or very close to the top of all defensemen (top 3 pretty much everywhere). Very good things happen when Grzelcyk is on the ice.

For reference sake, a team that scores 60% of the total goals in all their games would be expected to finish with ~130 points. I can show my work if anyone's interested, but it's fairly long and relatively boring.
Totally agree. I just wonder if they are spooked by Grzelyck’s actual goals for in the post season. It’s a small sample and his expected in the playoffs are in line with his regular season numbers so he should have positive regression but that’s my one concern.

If it’s me, Orlov plays with McAvoy, Grz with Clifton.

Orlov - McAvoy
Lindholm - Carlo
Grzelyck - Clifton
 

xc world cup

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Reading about Bergeron going to Craig Smith’s hotel to thank both him and his wife for the contributions to the team and wish them well in DC makes me love the man even more. Such an incredible leader who sets the tone in that locker room and who has set the done for two decades in that building (along with Z). I never want him to retire, I’ll gladly deal with him being 60 and slow but still winning faceoffs.
As a "certain class of poster", better, more accurate words have seldom been spoken...indeed, you have shown that your posts are classy, empathetic and appreciative in a "certain" way. I, too, wish he'd never hang the skates up, but know I've been blessed to watch one of the great leaders and gentlemen in all sports' history for 20 years and we all must recognize the gift. What a night it'll be if he can skate the Cup around the rink!
 

Frisbetarian

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Totally agree. I just wonder if they are spooked by Grzelyck’s actual goals for in the post season. It’s a small sample and his expected in the playoffs are in line with his regular season numbers so he should have positive regression but that’s my one concern.

If it’s me, Orlov plays with McAvoy, Grz with Clifton.

Orlov - McAvoy
Lindholm - Carlo
Grzelyck - Clifton
Grzelcyk and Clifton have struggled when together this year. It's just 131 5 on 5 minutes, so a relatively small sample, but something to consider. For reference sake, in 450 minutes together, Lindholm and Cliffy have been very good, and Grzelcyk and Carlo have been outstanding in their 180 minutes on ice as a pair.
 

cshea

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Yeah, that’s true. If they put Orlov on the 3rd pair they could conceivably cover over 60 minutes with one of McAvoy/Lindholm/Orlov on the ice. Then they can mix and match as specific situations dictate.
 

Zososoxfan

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Yeah, that’s true. If they put Orlov on the 3rd pair they could conceivably cover over 60 minutes with one of McAvoy/Lindholm/Orlov on the ice. Then they can mix and match as specific situations dictate.
That’s what they call one of them good problems.

hard not to gush over this trade. Makes the forwards even more 4lines deep. And the d corps is genuinely stacked.
 

cshea

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A bit of a rough start for Orlov last night. The pairing with Forbort really struggled. Obviously it’s not of great concern, he did have the shock of getting traded, had to fly from DC to Vancouver and play a game with a new team with zero on-ice preparation. Not to mention the system changes which impact the defenseman more than someone like Hathaway.

That said, I didn’t love putting him on the right with Forbort right out of the gate. I would’ve preferred a softer landing spot to break him in, on his natural left. He said he’s only played 50/60 games in the NHL on the right but feels comfortable there. Maybe Clifton is banged up to some degree and that’s why he was first to sit. Just thought plopping him on his offside with Forbort wasn’t exactly an easy first assignment.
 

joe dokes

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A bit of a rough start for Orlov last night. The pairing with Forbort really struggled. Obviously it’s not of great concern, he did have the shock of getting traded, had to fly from DC to Vancouver and play a game with a new team with zero on-ice preparation. Not to mention the system changes which impact the defenseman more than someone like Hathaway.

That said, I didn’t love putting him on the right with Forbort right out of the gate. I would’ve preferred a softer landing spot to break him in, on his natural left. He said he’s only played 50/60 games in the NHL on the right but feels comfortable there. Maybe Clifton is banged up to some degree and that’s why he was first to sit. Just thought plopping him on his offside with Forbort wasn’t exactly an easy first assignment.
I suppose Montgomery was going with "lets throw him in the deep end." Especially with the b2b, I think we'll see some new d-pairs soon. And then they have FOUR days off next week to straighten it all out for the stretch.
 

Chainsaw318

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Hathaway seemed to fit right in, getting involved physically, but not starting a fight or committing a called penalty.

He rotated up top to the blue line on an early possession, when the D moved forward, so that’s a nice sign. He could be fun with Foligno and Nosek.
 

LogansDad

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A bit of a rough start for Orlov last night. The pairing with Forbort really struggled. Obviously it’s not of great concern, he did have the shock of getting traded, had to fly from DC to Vancouver and play a game with a new team with zero on-ice preparation. Not to mention the system changes which impact the defenseman more than someone like Hathaway.

That said, I didn’t love putting him on the right with Forbort right out of the gate. I would’ve preferred a softer landing spot to break him in, on his natural left. He said he’s only played 50/60 games in the NHL on the right but feels comfortable there. Maybe Clifton is banged up to some degree and that’s why he was first to sit. Just thought plopping him on his offside with Forbort wasn’t exactly an easy first assignment.
I don't think it helped thatcForbert played what, to my eyes, was his worst game in a long time. He was a disaster out there, both near the puck and away from it.
 

InstaFace

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I'm hoping most of the time lost comes from Forbort. Matt Grzelcyk has long been a binkie for me; he's a analytics dream ;) When the team signed John Moore, I remember making a comment like, "That's a lot of years, but a decent annual salary. But where is he going to play? Grzelcyk is better."

Over his career, Matt Grzelcyk has been on the ice for 261 goals for and just 146 goals against in 5 on 5 situations, a goal for percentage of 64.1%, the best in the league by a considerable margin. Over the last almost 3 seasons, since the start of 2020-21, those numbers are 144 goals for and 71 goals against (67.0%), again the best in the league for defensemen with over 1500 5 on 5 minutes in that period (187 players). Grzelcyk has elite expected goal on ice numbers, as well. In pretty much every system I looked at, he is right around or just over a 60% XGF% for both his career and the last 3 years. This also puts him at or very close to the top of all defensemen (top 3 pretty much everywhere). Very good things happen when Grzelcyk is on the ice.

For reference sake, a team that scores 60% of the total goals in all their games would be expected to finish with ~130 points. I can show my work if anyone's interested, but it's fairly long and relatively boring.
Not to get too far down a tangent, but: how do you isolate such GF% numbers from the impact of the rest of the team - in Grzelcyk's case, playing on the awesome Bruins? Do we index it to the team's GF%? Do an on-off +/- like basketball? Are there other ways to remove more noise variables?
 

Frisbetarian

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Great questions.

We absolutely looked at team relative when looking at either actual on ice goals or expected on ice golas. We also did some work with strength of teammates and opposition, and the team stuff was somewhat valuable, but (at that point) the opposition data had too much noise to be of any worth. We also looked at WoWY numbers.

Grzelcyk leading the league in both G% and XPG% over the long and short term, never having a G% under 55% or an XPG% under 58% (depending on data source), and always being well above team average in both makes it pretty clear, though. Good things have happened with him on the ice. He's an underrated player, imo, with elite edging skills.