Buchholz Traded To Philly For 2B/DH Josh Tobias

Dr. Gonzo

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Tobias was taken in the 10th round of the 2015 draft. Writeup from Philliesminorthoughts.com when he was drafted with BA predraft report below.

Tobias was drafted in the 31st round by the Nationals in 2011 when he was coming out of a North Carolina high school, but went on to Florida, where he was named to the SEC All-Freshman team the next year. He battled injuries and wasn’t as consistent in the next two seasons, going undrafted last year. He’s bounced back in 2015 and has become one of the best seniors in the country. Tobias has returned to switch-hitting this season to great success. He led the Gators in several offensive categories in the regular season, including batting average (.366) and OPS (1.004). He has a contact-oriented approach and makes the most of his average speed. Tobias isn’t the smoothest defender at third base, but has gotten the job done and nearly went the whole season without making an error. He’s moved around the infield some during his career and provides good versatility. His best other spot is second base and he has some similarities to Josh Harrison. Tobias doesn’t have the loudest tools, but he’ll provide a team good value in this year’s draft as an offensive infielder.
 

BoSoxFink

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13 million dollars saved as well, which is what they really cared about. Dombrowski may have said "he's not under a mandate" to get under the luxury tax threshold, but it certainly seems like he is.
 

czar

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Red Sox must have really, really wanted to dump that $13m, I guess. I thought they would have been able to do better.

Maybe you'd have to eat half the contract, but it stings not getting something to replenish the system from the SP glut.

Also, farewell, Clay -- few Red Sox players with 15 career fWAR were as maligned as you.
 

NoXInNixon

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So the Phillies are hoping he has a good first half so they can flip him at the deadline?
 

jsinger121

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Red Sox must have really, really wanted to dump that $13m, I guess. I thought they would have been able to do better.

Maybe you'd have to eat half the contract, but it stings not getting something to replenish the system from the SP glut.
He wasn't worth shit on the market without picking up more than half the salary.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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adios Clay.
This is harsh. The guys was the 42nd overall pick in his draft class, and he gave the Sox 81 wins and a 109 ERA+ in his time here, not to mention 2 WS rings (one of which he played a huge part in by pitching while injured). I know the sky was supposed to be the limit, blah blah blah, but the return on the Buchholz pick was quite good.
 

joe dokes

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He wasn't worth shit on the market without picking up more than half the salary.
and then at that point the question is "what sort of prospects do we get for our 6.5M. answer was probably "one that's not worth it."
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Well...that's kind of lousy. Pretty garbage return for Clay. I wouldn't have cared if the team picked up half if it improved talent coming back
 

czar

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This is harsh. The guys was the 42nd overall pick in his draft class, and he gave the Sox 81 wins and a 109 ERA+ in his time here, not to mention 2 WS rings (one of which he played a huge part in by pitching while injured). I know the sky was supposed to be the limit, blah blah blah, but the return on the Buchholz pick was quite good.
Buchholz returned 14.6 fWAR and $101m in value (by FG). Sox paid him ~$60m. Has always been a good team player. Will never understand the angst...
 

bsj

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I feel like whenever we free up a surplus of SP, there comes a point mid season when we suddenly wish we had one more SP. I really hope everyone stays healthy in '17.
 

czar

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He wasn't worth shit on the market without picking up more than half the salary.
Then not sure why this move had to be made *right now* unless A) you are freeing salary up to run after EE or B) Buchholz was like "c'mon guys, do me a solid and just get me out of here before ST so I'm not in limbo."

Like, if he's totally worthless, at least get to ST and make sure someone's arm doesn't fall up or maybe another team gets decimated...
 

joe dokes

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For his sake, it's nice that he's going to a good team, in a pitcher's park, with appreciative and forgiving fans, where he'll get to run the bases more.
 

joe dokes

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Then not sure why this move had to be made *right now* unless A) you are freeing salary up to run after EE or B) Buchholz was like "c'mon guys, do me a solid and just get me out of here before ST so I'm not in limbo."
I saw DD interviewed recently, and he seemed to say that its *harder* to move guys in ST; that waiting for an injury (to your team or another) or other type of emergency need is a fool's errand.
 

KingChre

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I'm a bit biased as I know him on a personal level a little bit, and he is a great guy, but this was a necessary move. I guess I was expecting to get more in return as well, given the dearth of starting pitching available right now. Oh well. Good luck Clay and thanks for your efforts in Boston!
 
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ElcaballitoMVP

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Then not sure why this move had to be made *right now* unless A) you are freeing salary up to run after EE or B) Buchholz was like "c'mon guys, do me a solid and just get me out of here before ST so I'm not in limbo."

Like, if he's totally worthless, at least get to ST and make sure someone's arm doesn't fall up or maybe another team gets decimated...
A was my first thought, as well. I don't see why they did this now unless they're looking to use that money elsewhere.
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

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Can we all agree now that in hindsight it wasn't worth picking up his option? I understand at the time we didn't know Sale was happening, but Clay doesn't have a whole lot of value.
 

Zososoxfan

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Happy trails Clay. I will not miss the squirrels, but the man pitched some big innings and was here for some big moments. He never had another season like 2010, which is what we would've wanted, but he outlasted a ton of pitchers in Boston.
 

joe dokes

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Can we all agree now that in hindsight it wasn't worth picking up his option? I understand at the time we didn't know Sale was happening, but Clay doesn't have a whole lot of value.
Did picking it up actually cost them anything? It did get them a warm body in return, which they dont get if they just let him go.
 

NickEsasky

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Can we all agree now that in hindsight it wasn't worth picking up his option? I understand at the time we didn't know Sale was happening, but Clay doesn't have a whole lot of value.
How was it not worth it? The Phillies are now paying for him and they got an asset they wouldn't have otherwise gotten if they declined the option. It may not be a great asset but it's something.
 

Steve Dillard

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Then not sure why this move had to be made *right now* unless A) you are freeing salary up to run after EE or B) Buchholz was like "c'mon guys, do me a solid and just get me out of here before ST so I'm not in limbo."
The best might be C) Extend one of Betts/Bogaerts
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Can we all agree now that in hindsight it wasn't worth picking up his option? I understand at the time we didn't know Sale was happening, but Clay doesn't have a whole lot of value.
What difference does it make now? It cost the Red Sox exactly ZERO dollars to pick up the option and trade him (where as declining would have cost them $500K). Maybe Tobias turns out to be of value someday...who knows.

Thing is, maybe Clay's presence on the roster gave DD just a touch more leverage in the Sale negotiation. He didn't *need* Sale as he had six starters already, so he didn't have to give in and send Benintendi or Devers to get the job done.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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I don't think keeping Buchholz and relying on him for an important role, for $13.5M, was ever Option A for DD. I think he realized that exercising Clay's option had some value at the time, provided him with some flexibility, and could always be undone with a little something coming back if things played out well (like, if you can swing a trade for Chris Sale and pick up a better BP arm). We could always wish that the return on a trade would be interesting - a fallen, former top prospect, a good-fitting bench piece, a lower-level lottery ticket, etc. - but a guy like Tobias was always more likely.

So now, we get the salary relief most of us were expecting, and add a piece who, if he hits his ceiling, could be BROCKHOLT-lite.
 

bankshot1

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This is harsh. The guys was the 42nd overall pick in his draft class, and he gave the Sox 81 wins and a 109 ERA+ in his time here, not to mention 2 WS rings (one of which he played a huge part in by pitching while injured). I know the sky was supposed to be the limit, blah blah blah, but the return on the Buchholz pick was quite good.
I was going to specifically thank him for his '13 WS 4+ inning start. while he was hurt. I really wanted to root for the guy, but he seemed to always get in his own way, with injuries/issues real or imagined. I wish him no ill-will, and hope he does well in Philly. it was time.
 

foulkehampshire

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Godspeed Buchholz. Often maligned, mostly injured, forever an enigma.

When he came up with that over-the-top delivery, 12-6 curve, a bunny-rabbit changeup and that 95+ mph fastball I really thought the Sox had something special. He looked like a right-handed Deliverance version of Cole Hamels.

He was better than he looked at times, and not as bad as we'll probably remember him...but I can't help but think he could of been much, much more.
 

Rasputin

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Can we all agree now that in hindsight it wasn't worth picking up his option? I understand at the time we didn't know Sale was happening, but Clay doesn't have a whole lot of value.
Of course not. That's stupid.

Not only is it stupid to judge decisions by things that happen after the decision was made, it's stupid to thing Buchholz had no value. He had value if we needed him to pitch and he had value as a trade chip. He didn't bring back a sexy big time prospect, but he did bring back a guy that's worth having.
 

Byrdbrain

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Can we all agree now that in hindsight it wasn't worth picking up his option? I understand at the time we didn't know Sale was happening, but Clay doesn't have a whole lot of value.
What are you going to post about now that this is done and what was the harm in picking up the option?
I think they should have held on to him and seen if they could get a bit more but they got something for him.
 

sfip

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This was the one opportunity to get under the luxury tax threshold, which should make a significant difference under the new CBA. If they can stay under, it's worth it. That's even though it's a guarantee people here will get mad when the Phillies trade Clay at the deadline for a higher value than Josh Tobias.
 

johnnywayback

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Puzzling, to say the least. I was hoping that, if they couldn't get a top-150 prospect, they could at least have gotten that "has options but is better than Henry Owens" 7th starter. And it's hard to imagine they couldn't have gotten Josh Tobias for him in March.

I will say that you now have to factor this into the calculation of the Sale trade -- given that they more or less concluded they had to ditch Buchholz for nothing, we didn't trade Moncada/Kopech/Basabe/Diaz for three years of Sale, we traded them for two years of Sale and one year of the difference between Sale and Buchholz.
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

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What are you going to post about now that this is done and what was the harm in picking up the option?
I think they should have held on to him and seen if they could get a bit more but they got something for him.
I'll still complain about the bullpen.

Edit: In all seriousness though - it's hard for me to argue with Dombrowski's moves this offseason. I would still like to see them take a flyer on Greg Holland.
 

curly2

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Buchholz returned 14.6 fWAR and $101m in value (by FG). Sox paid him ~$60m. Has always been a good team player. Will never understand the angst...
I think it was partly because the potential was there for him to be an elite pitcher, and partly because he pitched SO slowly, especially with guys on base, he was brutal to watch.

The Sox certainly got their money's worth from him. He was hugely important in 2013, and him gutting out four innings in the World Series will always make him OK in my book.

Tobias probably maxes out as a utility player.
Like an analrapist?
 

InstaFace

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Fun fact: The pick we used to get Buchholz came as a result of the Mets signing away Pedro Martinez.

Funner fact: I had forgotten that upon Clay's call-up, Tito had told reporters, "It doesn't matter if he throws a no-hitter, he's going back down." And then in his second start...


(anyone got a longer GIF of Pedroia's reaction to his play in the 7th?)
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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To the idea of this signaling a move to Encarnacion, I don't see it. Clearing Buchholz's $13M off the books gets the team below the CBT threshold, but not that far. Encarnacion would take them right back over the threshold. I think if they weren't concerned about paying the tax for the second year in a row, they'd have signed Encarnacion already.

I think the timing of this is probably Dombrowski getting things done now and moving on rather than letting it linger through spring training and possibly having nothing materialize in the way of a trade. Holding out for the mythical "more" can get you stuck with nothing more often than actually getting that something more.
 

mauf

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This is obviously a financial move, so either (a) DD needed to clear salary for another move to come, or (b) DD absolutely had to move Buchholz to make the Sale trade fit within his budget. Therefore, you can't judge this move in isolation.

Bear in mind, (a) could be an extension with one of the young guns, which would have an impact on the 2017 CBT calculation.
 

Thetoddwalker

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I am fine with this. It was a move that had to be made and Clay is just too unreliable to give a starting spot to with 6 more deserving starters. Does DD make a another free agent move with the savings?
 

StuckOnYouk

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When is the salary calculated for tax, opening day or final game of the season? If Clay is dumped at the trade deadline does none of his money count against the Cap?