Bye week / Eagles chatter

lexrageorge

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Jul 31, 2007
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Does anyone else find it surprising that we never heard anything about what happened with Malcolm Butler in the super bowl? I wouldn't expect BB to spill the beans of course. But, I do find it surprising that after all this time, no former player, no friend of MB, no former coach, no one - anywhere, ever leaked what was going on? Is that because only BB knows? That would seem a bit odd to me for two reasons, #1) is the Pats coaching situation so that no other coaches can ask a question and get an answer? It's an exaggeration, but could BB say "Brady is not starting this week" and no coach would ask for an explanation? I hope not. #2) Would MB not deserve at least some conversation as to why he wasn't playing?
The simplest explanation is the both the most boring and the most likely: football decision

IIRC, McCourty mentioned the squad captains on the defense were told there was a chance they may be without Butler. He was sick and may have missed some practice time. He hadn't been playing all that well and struggled in the AFCCG. Belichick tends to make these decisions in consultation with the coaches, so to the coaches it was just a decision that they owned together. Patricia pretty much said Butler wasn't part of the game plan. Bottom line it was a football decision, which is exactly how it was described by BB himself.

It would also explain why we've never heard anything, as there really is no story to hear. No-one really wants to revisit football decisions. The former players and coaches and Butler himself have all moved on.

It may come out some day long after his retirement that Belichick may feel the benching was a mistake. But we may be waiting a while.
 

Peak Oil Can Boyd

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Sep 28, 2011
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All 3 SB losses were excruciating. But then again, each of the 6 SB wins could have been losses. Live, learn and move on.
I hear you on the two losses to the Giants, but I don't really understand this narrative around SB52. The Patriots were defending champions winning, easily, the most exciting and satisfying Super Bowl in franchise history the year before. It was a good game and Philly played a little bit better. The game wasn't defined by one massive choke or a total collapse. Reiss even compares the SB52 loss to the losses of the Seahawks and Falcons; it's laughable, they're not even in the same universe.

Is that they lost to Nick Foles or that Eagles fans are unbearable?
 
Apr 24, 2019
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It’s that the QB threw for 500 yards and the Pats lost anyway due in somewhat large part to their secondary getting KILLED while their (at least serviceable) CB was benched defensively FOR THE ENTIRE GAME. It isn’t complicated. And it’s isnt Foles.
 

BigSoxFan

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SB52 was just one giant ball of frustration. You had the slow start featuring Gost FG/XP misses, the Cooks stupid hurdle play, Cooks getting himself concussed, Brady dropping the easy pass, the defense giving up big plays on practically every drive, Philly Philly, the Butler situation, etc.

It’s a real testament to this franchise that they basically shrugged off the SB loss and went out and won it the very next year and are sitting here at 8-1. BB never lets the team feel sorry for itself. They just get back to work.
 

Super Nomario

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I hear you on the two losses to the Giants, but I don't really understand this narrative around SB52. The Patriots were defending champions winning, easily, the most exciting and satisfying Super Bowl in franchise history the year before. It was a good game and Philly played a little bit better. The game wasn't defined by one massive choke or a total collapse. Reiss even compares the SB52 loss to the losses of the Seahawks and Falcons; it's laughable, they're not even in the same universe.

Is that they lost to Nick Foles or that Eagles fans are unbearable?
It was pretty much a total collapse on defense, all game long, against an Eagles team missing not only Wentz but also LT Jason Peters.
 

Red Averages

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You guys realize the Patriots won a super bowl the following year and current sport the best record in the AFC again? Stop living in the dark times.
 

NomarsFool

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The simplest explanation is the both the most boring and the most likely: football decision

IIRC, McCourty mentioned the squad captains on the defense were told there was a chance they may be without Butler. He was sick and may have missed some practice time. He hadn't been playing all that well and struggled in the AFCCG. Belichick tends to make these decisions in consultation with the coaches, so to the coaches it was just a decision that they owned together. Patricia pretty much said Butler wasn't part of the game plan. Bottom line it was a football decision, which is exactly how it was described by BB himself.

It would also explain why we've never heard anything, as there really is no story to hear. No-one really wants to revisit football decisions. The former players and coaches and Butler himself have all moved on.

It may come out some day long after his retirement that Belichick may feel the benching was a mistake. But we may be waiting a while.
It just seems odd to me that he didn't play a single defensive snap (other than special teams). After playing 98% of snaps during the season, it seems hard to understand that there wasn't any situation (nickel, dime, etc.) where he wouldn't have been one of the best DBs to put on the field. That makes me believe there was something beyond football that went into it.

I don't think BB will ever talk about it.
 

Jimbodandy

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It just seems odd to me that he didn't play a single defensive snap (other than special teams). After playing 98% of snaps during the season, it seems hard to understand that there wasn't any situation (nickel, dime, etc.) where he wouldn't have been one of the best DBs to put on the field. That makes me believe there was something beyond football that went into it.

I don't think BB will ever talk about it.
Stop listening to sports talk radio. Butler was playing poorly leading up to the Super Bowl and then missed massive practice time the week of the game. He wasn't better than what they put out there, and his resume is irrelevant.

Bill wouldn't kneecap his own chances at a Super Bowl because Butler used the wrong salad fork. People need to stop regurgitating that nonsense.

Nothing that Butler has done since leaving New England has lended a shred of credibility to talk that he should have been out there. I'll always love the kid, but he has been mediocre to worse in the last two seasons.

Bill went with the guys that he thought gave him the best chance, like he said. I take his word over the moron talking heads any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

The irony of all this is that Butler's signature play came because Bill sat Arrington DURING a Super Bowl.
 

lexrageorge

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To be fair, Butler was a lot better the second half of 2018 than the start of his tenure with the Titans:

From weeks one though nine, Butler was nothing short of dreadful and was getting beat on the regular. According to Pro Football Focus, his overall grade was a 51.9, and his coverage grade was just slightly better at 53.4. Butler also allowed a passer rating of 141.8.

Butler was able to salvage his season in the second half, though. The veteran corner was named as one of PFF’s “second-half stars,” and came up with an overall grade of 80.2, a coverage grade of 83.1, and a passer rating allowed of 40.4 from weeks 10 through 17.
https://titansized.com/2019/08/08/malcolm-butler-optimistic-2019/
He trash-talked the Browns to death (this one's hilarious if you hate the Browns, who come across as a bunch of babies):

https://titansized.com/2019/09/15/browns-react-malcolm-butler-no-heart/
And he was doing OK until he got hurt:

The veteran corner has seen a big improvement from where he was last season. In 2018, Butler allowed a passer rating of 101.4 when targeted, but in 2019 he’s allowed a 75.2 mark.
https://titansized.com/2019/11/04/titans-malcolm-butler-lost-season/
I realize folks will never accept the "football decision" aspect of Butler's benching in the Super Bowl. That doesn't mean Bill made the right decision (I think he did), or that Bill didn't make a mistake by keeping Butler on the bench when the Pats D was clearly struggling (I think he did). But sometimes during the course of 40 (!!) playoff games, bad things happen that defy any other explanation other than "it's football".
 
Apr 24, 2019
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Stop listening to sports talk radio. Butler was playing poorly leading up to the Super Bowl and then missed massive practice time the week of the game. He wasn't better than what they put out there, and his resume is irrelevant.

Bill wouldn't kneecap his own chances at a Super Bowl because Butler used the wrong salad fork. People need to stop regurgitating that nonsense.

Nothing that Butler has done since leaving New England has lended a shred of credibility to talk that he should have been out there. I'll always love the kid, but he has been mediocre to worse in the last two seasons.

Bill went with the guys that he thought gave him the best chance, like he said. I take his word over the moron talking heads any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

The irony of all this is that Butler's signature play came because Bill sat Arrington DURING a Super Bowl.
This seems pretty over-the-top. No one is arguing that Butler was AMAZING or even above average - that season or in the ones since. No one is arguing that he was practicing well. We weren't there, the players and coaches were. Obviously. But the idea that, even with a shit-tastic week of practice, Butler "wasn't better than what they put out there," is ludicrous. Bademosi over a guy who played 98% of the snaps until that point? Butler wasn't better than Bademosi? Really? And while Butler hasn't been amazing since he left, hasn't lived up to the big contract, that doesn't equal WORSE THAN WHAT THEY PUT OUT THERE. That seems like the kind of extreme one does hear on sports talk.

My best guess, which is worth nothing and won't change a thing, it's hard to imagine a player as passionate (imperfect, but passionate, scrappy, "hungry") as Butler has largely been in his NFL career, wouldn't have made a difference. Had Butler come out in, say, the 3rd or 4th quarter of a game where his teammates are getting TORCHED, I suspect he would've played with his hair on fire to make up for whatever crappy practice performance he had given that week, and I suspect that the Pats would've won their 7th this year. I think it's credible that he would've at least played HARD, if only to make up for...whatever inexcusable behavior/performance he exhibited - having a girl in his room after curfew. Smoking pot in his room - drinking - whatever the hell he did. There were approximately one trillion 3rd and 4th down conversions made by Philly in the second half of that game. You don't think Butler could've made a difference on ONE of them? Because one could have changed the outcome.

Obviously this is just wallowing and theorizing, but your post seems to be dumping on a fairly legitimate viewpoint, however tired you and others are of entertaining it.

EDIT: lots of typos and shit
 

pappymojo

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People go on and on about how the defense couldn't stop the Eagles offense, but really, outside of the fumble, their defense couldn't stop the Patriots either.

I don't think the referees were doing either defense any favors and I don't think Butler, coming off the flu, was changing anything in that game.
 

NomarsFool

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It's hard for me to believe that, football-wise, the Patriots coaching stuff thought that Butler was better than every single other DB that played that game while at the same time thinking he was good enough to play 98% of the defensive snaps before that game. Totally could have understood the reasons not to start him. Hard to understand not having him play at all from a football perspective, in a game where the secondary was getting lit up.
 

Anthologos

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Jun 4, 2017
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If you're having trouble summoning sufficient disgust for the game tomorrow, allow me a quick news bite to get you in the mood:

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2019/11/14/eagles-fan-patti-pizzimenti-thriving-receiving-kidney-donation-patriots-fan-john-houlihan/
I must be missing something, but I can’t summon up anything like disgust for living organ donation. I don’t like to share my towel. This level of generosity always leaves me inspired, though I also suspect I will end up needing both of my kidneys...

Those shirts must be incredible conversation starters. Wear them often enough, get enough free drinks, you may be back in line for a replacement...
 

lexrageorge

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It's hard for me to believe that, football-wise, the Patriots coaching stuff thought that Butler was better than every single other DB that played that game while at the same time thinking he was good enough to play 98% of the defensive snaps before that game. Totally could have understood the reasons not to start him. Hard to understand not having him play at all from a football perspective, in a game where the secondary was getting lit up.
The 98% of defensive snaps is a red herring, as those snaps were becoming far less effective as the season wore on.

The second issue, why Butler was never inserted as a late inning reliever, is, IMO, one of Belichick's rare mistakes, although I think Patricia owns some of it as well. Probably a combination of the game situation getting away from them and the coaches (mistaken) belief that their current personnel would correct their issues in the second half. It's unusual for a Belichick-coached team, but stuff happens.
 

Super Nomario

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The 98% of defensive snaps is a red herring, as those snaps were becoming far less effective as the season wore on.

The second issue, why Butler was never inserted as a late inning reliever, is, IMO, one of Belichick's rare mistakes, although I think Patricia owns some of it as well. Probably a combination of the game situation getting away from them and the coaches (mistaken) belief that their current personnel would correct their issues in the second half. It's unusual for a Belichick-coached team, but stuff happens.
The outside cornerbacks were fine in the second half once they switched Rowe and Gilmore. The guys who killed them were Clement, Ertz, and slot WR Agholor. Butler wasn't going to help with the first two and it's debatable whether he would have helped with Agholor (he rarely played in the slot in NE, so it would have likely been putting Butler on Torrey Smith and shifting Rowe to Agholor).

I get why people focus on Butler, but the real head-scratcher was not starting with Gilmore on Jeffery. I never understood that one, and it cost them a third-down conversion early and the jumpball touchdown. They also did some other weird stuff, like play James Harrison almost wire-to-wire while only giving Deatrich Wise six snaps (his fewest all year).

At the end of the day, they lost that game on the LOS though. The Eagles ran at will on them (164 yards on 27 carries) and they didn't sack Foles once.
 

tims4wins

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Wise was concussed in the AFCCG. The Jones and Wise injuries were probably more important than the Butler situation.
 

dirtynine

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Heading to this one. As a Philly-area Pats fan I’m curious to see how much traveling support there will be. Hopefully a bunch of us come out of the woodwork.