Cap Clearing trade?

PedroKsBambino

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I think a few teams could take AB into space or trade exceptions, essentially as a salary dump (or getting back a 2nd or something like that).

Then there's a few swaps that clear $1-$2 mil to get them enough money to get Hayward. My guess is Ainge has a preferred option on this path which gets back a big.

Personally, I'd love for them to package AB (or Crowder, if they've concluded he won't play nicely with Hayward..which I kind of doubt is a problem) and one of their later 1st round picks---their own, or Clips--for a big they can control for a few years and actually might benefit from. Portis is one possibility there, I think, though not sure in either direction what they think of the value there.
 

amfox1

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I believe Mickeys' contract doesn't become guaranteed til the 15th. Couldn't find it online but Adam Himmlesbach noted it here.


I'm pretty sure they would've cut him loose by the 1st if that was the opt out date. They knew the cap crunch was coming.
Makes sense. Spotrac has it as 7/1. In that case, they could waive Mickey, but that only saves $650k, given the roster spot min. hold. It takes $1.85mm to $1.2mm but doesn't change the analysis. Rozier wouldn't be enough, alone or with Mickey, but it likely would be close enough for Hayward to take a small haircut.
 

cheech13

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Bradley or Crowder may be worth a first round pick but it'll be difficult to get one under the circumstances.
 

bowiac

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I have a strong preference for moving Bradley. He's the worst player of Smart, Bradley, and Crowder, and is probably the one made most redundant by a Hayward signing. He's got less upside than Smart, and is about to get paid sooner than Crowder.

I'd rather move Bradley for nothing (e.g., a late second) than move Crowder for a first round pick.
 

Cellar-Door

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Makes sense. Spotrac has it as 7/1. In that case, they could waive Mickey, but that only saves $650k, given the roster spot min. hold. It takes $1.85mm to $1.2mm but doesn't change the analysis. Rozier wouldn't be enough, alone or with Mickey, but it likely would be close enough for Hayward to take a small haircut.
Yeah the cheapest way (in terms of last year's rotation minutes) to clear the space is to cut Mickey and trade both Rozier and Jackson w/o taking back salary.
 

bosockboy

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I have a strong preference for moving Bradley. He's the worst player of Smart, Bradley, and Crowder, and is probably the one made most redundant by a Hayward signing. He's got less upside than Smart, and is about to get paid sooner than Crowder.

I'd rather move Bradley for nothing (e.g., a late second) than move Crowder for a first round pick.
So in a Bradley trade, does Smart assume the 2 guard or is he most valuable off the bench?
 

mcpickl

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Tough to find a big to fit into Olynyk role that would be available.

Would Charlotte move Kaminsky after signing Dwight? I don't think they'll get all those picks offered before though.

Kyle O'Quinn from the Knicks?

I think Patrick Patterson would be a good fit, but he's going to get offered more than the room midlevel.

Maybe Lavoy Allen?

Don't see a lot of options. Hopefully Ainge can unearth the next Jae Crowder hiding on someones' roster who's a big.

Didn't think I'd spend my 4th of July sifting through the bottoms of NBA rosters, but here I am.
 

RedOctober3829

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So in a Bradley trade, does Smart assume the 2 guard or is he most valuable off the bench?
I'd sign Tony Allen to start and use Smart in his useful role off the bench. smart, Brown, Tatum, and Zizic is a very formidable 6-9. Maybe Crowder is on the bench too if he stays unless he plays the 4 alongside Horford. That'd be a real small lineup which is why he'd go to the bench. Get a 2 guard and a PF.
 

DannyDarwinism

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It pains me because I love the dude, but I think moving Avery makes the most sense. Crowder can play minutes at the 4 in small line-ups, and is obviously on the most team-friendly contract, which may allow for flexibility should the right situation arise. Also, for some reason (aesthetics maybe?), I think he's one of those guys who's actual value on the court is probably higher than his perceived value, so I wonder what he would fetch in a trade. Similarly with Smart, I wonder what his trade value is, but given his age, he can be part of the present and the future with Tatum/Jaylen and the future picks. Plus, he's such a versatile defender, if he makes the progress that Bradly made on his jump shot, he'll be a very valuable guy on what should be a decent contract, unless he tears it up this year.

From everything I've heard, Ainge loves Bradley, but on paper, I think he makes the most sense to move.
 

bowiac

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So in a Bradley trade, does Smart assume the 2 guard or is he most valuable off the bench?
I mean, bench or start really barely matters. Again most teams, I think he's best as a starter (alongside Thomas, Hayward, Crowder and Horford), but depending on matchups and development from Brown and Tatum, they can go with Brown starting at the 2, or Tatum at the 4 (moving Hayward and Crowder down). I'm a Brown skeptic, but I'm wrong all the time, so it could happen.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I have a strong preference for moving Bradley. He's the worst player of Smart, Bradley, and Crowder, and is probably the one made most redundant by a Hayward signing. He's got less upside than Smart, and is about to get paid sooner than Crowder.

I'd rather move Bradley for nothing (e.g., a late second) than move Crowder for a first round pick.
They already have a guy on the roster who could step up and grab any minutes left behind by AB in Terry Rozier.

I think they end up trading both AB and Crowder though, and we'll get players back. They are both kinda redundant and I'm not sure either would be happy with a bench role.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I mean, bench or start really barely matters. Again most teams, I think he's best as a starter (alongside Thomas, Hayward, Crowder and Horford), but depending on matchups and development from Brown and Tatum, they can go with Brown starting at the 2, or Tatum at the 4 (moving Hayward and Crowder down). I'm a Brown skeptic, but I'm wrong all the time, so it could happen.
If Brown is really the 6'9 245 pounds he claims to be, he might be playing 4 at times too.
 

JCizzle

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If Brown is really the 6'9 245 pounds he claims to be, he might be playing 4 at times too.
Not a huge difference, but I thought it was 6'8, ~235. I'm also not sure I totally buy the growth spurt, but do believe the weight.
 

smastroyin

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There are two sides to every trade though. I hope Danny has some things lined up but everyone is gonna know he has to dump salary and everyone now seems to want to"win" their trades with Ainge.

I do think Crowder is probably the easiest move, the question being what you get back. His contract and versatility should make him have appeal to a wide range of teams.

As well, moving down from Fultz to Tatum did swing the balance of the team a little. I'm not sure they can actually really afford to give up a competent guard. I know Hayward and maybe Brown can defend some 2's but they can't guard the better 1's for long. And with IT a bit questionable health wise and unable to really guard the better 1's either, you will be stuck really short back there.

I agree with the idea that Bradley would be the most expendable guy in terms of ability and contract... But team construction I think makes it a bit more difficult.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Yes they are. They are like 15 million under
I checked. Technically (at least on Sportrac) they are $10 mil over now, but that's because of all the cap holds. When you take out holds like Rodriguez and Splitter they are between $10-$15 mil under depending on how they handle the Euros. So, they could get under enough to do a deal for Bradley.

That said, I still don't think Bradley for Holmes is a deal they'd do without an asset attached to AB, do you?
 

the moops

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I have a strong preference for moving Bradley. He's the worst player of Smart, Bradley, and Crowder, and is probably the one made most redundant by a Hayward signing. He's got less upside than Smart, and is about to get paid sooner than Crowder.

I'd rather move Bradley for nothing (e.g., a late second) than move Crowder for a first round pick.
Avery Bradley is a much better basketball player than Marcus Smart.
 

Cellar-Door

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Tough to find a big to fit into Olynyk role that would be available.
Do you mean the role of floor stretching big, or just the backup big role? If it;s the former, well nobody is filling that, it's why Olynyk is about to get paid. They'll probably counter it by going small more often and having Crowder (if he's still here) and/or Tatum play more 4.
If the latter, here is a list of free agent bigs who could hypothetically consider taking one of the exceptions:
Roy Hibbert
Aron Baynes
Brandon Bass
Mo Speights
Thomas Robinson
David Lee
Willie Reed
Andrew Bogut
Donatas Motiejunas
Nick Collison
David Lee
Jeff Withey
Jared Sullinger
Festus Ezeli
Stephen Zimmerman
obviously a bunch of players who are limited in various ways some better on offense, some D, some w/ health concerns.
Personally I'd probably be sniffing around the "prove you're healthy" group of Bogut/Sullinger/Ezeli.
 

Remagellan

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Bradley/Jackson for Okafor/Stauskas works and clears $1.3 mil. I know we all hate Okafor, but getting a big would be nice (and it's hard to make cap work for a deal for Holmes)
You guys need to get real. We're not giving you anything to help you clear cap space. You're going to be sending picks the Sixers way to take on a salary. That's the way that teams have been operating for a number of years now. That protected Sacramento pick we sent to you guys to move up to take Fultz came from us taking Stauskas, Carl Landry, and Jason Thompson so the Kings could clear cap space for free agent moves that didn't pan out.

If the Celtics are up against it, they're not going to be the ones making demands if they're trying to clear salaries. Other teams can do the math as well.
 

PedroKsBambino

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You guys need to get real. We're not giving you anything to help you clear cap space. You're going to be sending picks the Sixers way to take on a salary. That's the way that teams have been operating for a number of years now. That protected Sacramento pick we sent to you guys to move up to take Fultz came from us taking Stauskas, Carl Landry, and Jason Thompson so the Kings could clear cap space for free agent moves that didn't pan out.

If the Celtics are up against it, they're not going to be the ones making demands if they're trying to clear salaries. Other teams can do the math as well.
The Sixers have been trying to dump Okafor and would like to move off Stauskas' salary. Bradley is a much better basketball player, and someone they could flip for a pick during the year in all probability. They are getting a significant benefit here, both cap-wise and player-value wise. The only scenario that's not true is if someone actually wants to give a real asset for Okafor---I don't think many believe that is the case anymore.

The Holmes talk, I grant you, is hard to figure out from Philly's perspective absent a 1 going their way...but I'm not standing beyind any of that chatter!
 

finnVT

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Jamychal Green was very similar to Olynyk this year, and there seem to be rumblings he's available as an RFA, potentially via sign and trade. You could conceivably do an AB+Crowder for Green, if he'd sign in the 10-11m range. That would save you enough money to do the Hayward contract without moving anyone else, while giving you stretch-4 minutes (though with the caveat that Green shot really well from 3 this year-- around 38%-- but that hasn't been a big part of his game in the past, and was still less than Olynyk).

I think part of this decision, though, should be figuring out who of Smart/IT/AB you want to commit to after this season. If you're looking at just IT, it probably makes more sense to keep AB and move Smart.
 

the moops

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And yeah, teams know that Ainge has to clear salary, but he is trying to do so by offering valuable players like Bradley/Smart/Crowder. And all it takes is more than one team to actually want those players to create a scenario where Ainge could in fact get something of value while clearing space.
 

benhogan

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You guys need to get real. We're not giving you anything to help you clear cap space. You're going to be sending picks the Sixers way to take on a salary. That's the way that teams have been operating for a number of years now. That protected Sacramento pick we sent to you guys to move up to take Fultz came from us taking Stauskas, Carl Landry, and Jason Thompson so the Kings could clear cap space for free agent moves that didn't pan out.

If the Celtics are up against it, they're not going to be the ones making demands if they're trying to clear salaries. Other teams can do the math as well.
Ha. not even close....AB, Crowder, Smart are all good players on cheap deals. Celts won't have to attach picks unless they are upgrading for talent.
 

LondonSox

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I checked. Technically (at least on Sportrac) they are $10 mil over now, but that's because of all the cap holds. When you take out holds like Rodriguez and Splitter they are between $10-$15 mil under depending on how they handle the Euros. So, they could get under enough to do a deal for Bradley.

That said, I still don't think Bradley for Holmes is a deal they'd do without an asset attached to AB, do you?
Holmes isn't going anywhere imo given embiid questions. No.
It's 15mm as that's all pretty clear unless bolden changes some kinda in sl

The Sixers have been trying to dump Okafor and would like to move off Stauskas' salary. Bradley is a much better basketball player, and someone they could flip for a pick during the year in all probability. They are getting a significant benefit here, both cap-wise and player-value wise. The only scenario that's not true is if someone actually wants to give a real asset for Okafor---I don't think many believe that is the case anymore.

The Holmes talk, I grant you, is hard to figure out from Philly's perspective absent a 1 going their way...but I'm not standing beyind any of that chatter!
They picked up the option on stauskas I think the idea they want to dump him is pretty much wishful.

If redick wasn't done Bradley would absolutely be an option and sauce expendable and of course okafor is dead weight so that absolutely would work. But he is and Bradley is a one year and it's hard to give him and redick minutes and develop tlc and now korkmaz.
 

Big John

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Phoenix says done in a heartbeat...
Well, if you have to clear space and want a veteran center who can defend, Chandler is one of the options.

I guess I'd rather trade Bradley and Crowder for a veteran 7 footer on short money than for a couple of second round picks.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I had understood they thought Stauskas was essentially deadweight post-Redick signing...his only realistic role was eviscerated there. But, yes, they could hold him and see what develops.

Still seems to me that Jackson--who fits a need as a backup PG type with some level of potential---and upgrading from Stauskas' trade value to AB's is real value for Philly, along with dumping Okafor.
 

Reardon's Beard

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I like AB here more than JC if it comes down to the two. Jae more redundant and AB playing for a contract will be a killer, and I like the depth it provides the guards.

I would not be surprised to see Jae shipped out as soon as tomorrow.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Do you mean the role of floor stretching big, or just the backup big role? If it;s the former, well nobody is filling that, it's why Olynyk is about to get paid. They'll probably counter it by going small more often and having Crowder (if he's still here) and/or Tatum play more 4.
If the latter, here is a list of free agent bigs who could hypothetically consider taking one of the exceptions:
Roy Hibbert
Aron Baynes
Brandon Bass
Mo Speights
Thomas Robinson
David Lee
Willie Reed
Andrew Bogut
Donatas Motiejunas
Nick Collison
David Lee
Jeff Withey
Jared Sullinger
Festus Ezeli
Stephen Zimmerman
obviously a bunch of players who are limited in various ways some better on offense, some D, some w/ health concerns.
Personally I'd probably be sniffing around the "prove you're healthy" group of Bogut/Sullinger/Ezeli.
In looking at this list, I agree that Ezeli is worth checking into. That said, he is a traditional big so he isn't going to help with spacing. But he can rebound some, score around the cup and protect the rim. As some of you know, I am an Anti-Bogut guy. I love his game but he is cooked and cannot be depended on at all. As strange as it sounds, if the C's want a big who can spread the floor a bit, Mo Speights is a guy to look at. He sucked with the Clippers last year but he was a good with Golden State and developed a three point shot while there. If anyone can get him to play at that level again, its Stevens.
 

the moops

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Well, if you have to clear space and want a veteran center who can defend, Chandler is one of the options.

I guess I'd rather trade Bradley and Crowder for a veteran 7 footer on short money than for a couple of second round picks.
They don't have to trade both Bradley and Crowder
 

PedroKsBambino

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The tricky part about trading Crowder is you need to believe one of the MLE options, Tatum, or Zizic is ready to play crunch-time minutes at the 4 (or a MLE at the 5) right away, and will be good in them by the playoffs. I just am not sure I do. I guess if you imagine Horford at 4 and one of the vet 5s (Bogut down the road, etc.) that fits, but against a lot of lineups that just doesn't work

Would love to keep rest of the pieces together and still hoping Hayward was willing to forego the last million...but can't count on it
 

nighthob

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Well yes, if he was 6'5" he would be one of the best SGs in the league.

And Smart may very well learn to shoot, at this time he sucks at it though.
Let's put this another way, one of Boston's real defensive problems last year was backcourt size. Trading the one guard over 6'2" so as to get one more year out of a 6'2" G that struggles defensively against bigger SGs seems rather counterproductive.

Boston can't afford to sign both Thomas & Bradley, so the latter is gone for nothing at the end of the '18 season anyway (from the Boston perspective where they have two max players already).

Smart, on the other hand, is coming into extension season where Boston can likely get him for an additional three years at below market rates. So given how well he fits their defense, and the added size he brings to the floor, I'd bet on him not being the one sent out.
 

Reardon's Beard

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The tricky part about trading Crowder is you need to believe one of the MLE options, Tatum, or Zizic is ready to play crunch-time minutes at the 4 (or a MLE at the 5) right away, and will be good in them by the playoffs. I just am not sure I do. I guess if you imagine Horford at 4 and one of the vet 5s (Bogut down the road, etc.) that fits, but against a lot of lineups that just doesn't work

Would love to keep rest of the pieces together and still hoping Hayward was willing to forego the last million...but can't count on it
J Brown is going to be a killer and would not be surprised to see him on the floor at crunch time along with with IT, Bradley/Smart, GH and Al.
 

bowiac

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Avery Bradley is a much better basketball player than Marcus Smart.
I know it's not a popular view around here, but I think Bradley is one of the more overrated players in the league. He's a decent offensive piece who has turned into a pretty good shooter, and can score off the dribble a bit too, but that's about all he does. He has this defensive reputation as a shutdown guy, but he can't actually guard his own position effectively (SG), since he lacks the size for it. He's usable in certain sets with Smart on the court, but that's just cause Smart covers up for Bradley's lack of size. Bigger shooters just go over him, and he provides basically nothing in the way of help defense by himself. This shows up in both raw plus/minus, as well as more advanced implementations like RAPM, where the Celtics grade better defensively when Bradley is off the court. That stuff can be deceptive, but in Bradley's case, I think it's on point.

That's why I'm pretty happy to dump Bradley for just about anything, even if they can get more in return for Smart or Crowder.
 

the moops

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Let's put this another way, one of Boston's real defensive problems last year was backcourt size. Trading the one guard over 6'2" so as to get one more year out of a 6'2" G that struggles defensively against bigger SGs seems rather counterproductive.

Boston can't afford to sign both Thomas & Bradley, so the latter is gone for nothing at the end of the '18 season anyway (from the Boston perspective where they have two max players already).

Smart, on the other hand, is coming into extension season where Boston can likely get him for an additional three years at below market rates. So given how well he fits their defense, and the added size he brings to the floor, I'd bet on him not being the one sent out.
I understand, and agree with most of this. I was just offering an opinion on the statement that Bradley was a worse player than Smart. I don't buy that.
 

Cesar Crespo

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How about AB+Crowder for Rodney Hood + 2018 First rounder? Or just Crowder for their first.
 

PedroKsBambino

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J Brown is going to be a killer and would not be surprised to see him on the floor at crunch time along with with IT, Bradley/Smart, GH and Al.
I hope you are right---I think there's a ton of projection there, both in Brown taking a leap quickly (which I somewhat agree is possible) and that he bulks up effectively to play a new role quickly and effectively too (which I think is not all that likely)
 

nighthob

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The tricky part about trading Crowder is you need to believe one of the MLE options, Tatum, or Zizic is ready to play crunch-time minutes at the 4 (or a MLE at the 5) right away, and will be good in them by the playoffs. I just am not sure I do. I guess if you imagine Horford at 4 and one of the vet 5s (Bogut down the road, etc.) that fits, but against a lot of lineups that just doesn't work
Crowder did play a lot of crunch time 4 for Boston, but his 8'4" standing reach was something of a disadvantage. In truth Hayward is longer and could replace Crowder in that regard.

I think Boston also envisions Semi Ojeleye in the Jae Crowder role, albeit the hope being that he becomes a longer/bouncier version. His standing reach is also a lot greater than Crowder's.

There's also the option of moving Crowder/Bradley as a package for a forward that fits their concept that simultaneously clears the needed space. Like a deal with Memphis for Green. Or maybe even just Crowder to Sacramento for Labissiere, who's still young, but at least has some experience and would flourish next to Horford.
 

JCizzle

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Does anyone have insight why Memphis is trying to move Green and/or not give him a fair offer? He seems like a pretty valuable piece?
 

Cesar Crespo

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If Sacramento would trade Skal for Crowder, they truly are a helpless organization. That would be a coup.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think this swap is a great place to deploy one of the many lower first round picks to sweeten a deal.

Skal might be one such deal---Kings shouldn't do that deal. But they might.
 

nighthob

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I understand, and agree with most of this. I was just offering an opinion on the statement that Bradley was a worse player than Smart. I don't buy that.
Except that defensively he is and now that Hayward's inbound Bradley's offensive advantages are not as impactful.