Carry on my Hayward Son: Gordon to Charlotte for 4 years, $120M

bankshot1

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Is there a set time parameter (ie 5 business days) by which a player (in this case GH) must officially sign his contract?

What if during this assumed extended negotiation period for a S&T, a still unsigned Gordo sprains his pompadour, can the Hornets back out as the contract was never signed?

Or once an agreement in principle is reached and filed with the NBA, both sides, GH and Hornets, are contractually bound, and the Celts-Charlotte negotiations are addenda to the contract?
 

RedOctober3829

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Is there a set time parameter (ie 5 business days) by which a player (in this case GH) must officially sign his contract?

What if during this assumed extended negotiation period for a S&T, a still unsigned Gordo sprains his pompadour, can the Hornets back out as the contract was never signed?

Or once an agreement in principle is reached and filed with the NBA, both sides, GH and Hornets, are contractually bound, and the Celts-Charlotte negotiations are addenda to the contract?
If the contract isn't signed, he technically can back out. But good luck to any of Bartlestein's clients in trying to sign with Charlotte again.
 

mcpickl

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So what is the hold-up on announcing this as a S&T if it is? Charlotte gets a free second rounder or 2 and that should be enough.
They must be working on a version of this trade that has a third team taking on Rozier or Zeller, because Batum hasn't been waived yet by Charlotte.

Is there a set time parameter (ie 5 business days) by which a player (in this case GH) must officially sign his contract?

What if during this assumed extended negotiation period for a S&T, a still unsigned Gordo sprains his pompadour, can the Hornets back out as the contract was never signed?

Or once an agreement in principle is reached and filed with the NBA, both sides, GH and Hornets, are contractually bound, and the Celts-Charlotte negotiations are addenda to the contract?
No.

When Hayward signed in Boston he announced his decision on July 4th, officially signed on July 14th.

The deal isn't official until he actually signs, just ask San Antonio Spur Marcus Morris.
 

nighthob

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In fairness the Mook Morris fiasco was caused by his sleazy agent, who'd promised him a high paying gig with the Lakers, only to decide that the Lakers should invest that cap space elsewhere and then negotiating an MLE deal with the Spurs. While the Knicks had to literally contact Morris directly because the agent wasn't relaying their messages. (Really as great as LeBron the player is LeBron the agent is slimy.)
 

BigSoxFan

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In fairness the Mook Morris fiasco was caused by his sleazy agent, who'd promised him a high paying gig with the Lakers, only to decide that the Lakers should invest that cap space elsewhere and then negotiating an MLE deal with the Spurs. While the Knicks had to literally contact Morris directly because the agent wasn't relaying their messages. (Really as great as LeBron the player is LeBron the agent is slimy.)
Not only that but the Spurs traded Davis Bertans to create the cap space necessary to sign Morris. So they basically got screwed twice.
 

lovegtm

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Not only that but the Spurs traded Davis Bertans to create the cap space necessary to sign Morris. So they basically got screwed twice.
To be fair, the Spurs screwed themselves by preferring Mook over Bertans. They’ve been lowkey a shit franchise since they started catering to Pop’s high time preference.
 

NomarsFool

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The Kemba situation makes it very difficult to figure out where the Celtics should invest that TPE. Do you upgrade at PG? Tough to do with a max player already at PG. I would more think to upgrade at the 5 so you have a really solid closing 5 for the playoffs. But, maybe TT thrives in Boston. My guess is they just save it for mid season and evaluate then
 

Cellar-Door

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The Kemba situation makes it very difficult to figure out where the Celtics should invest that TPE. Do you upgrade at PG? Tough to do with a max player already at PG. I would more think to upgrade at the 5 so you have a really solid closing 5 for the playoffs. But, maybe TT thrives in Boston. My guess is they just save it for mid season and evaluate then
I bet they save it for next season.
 

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I wonder if Orlando would move Evan Fournier. He’s on the last year of his deal making 17 million. He would fill the gap left from losing Hayward.
 

NomarsFool

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If they wait for mid-season, only the pro-rated portion of the salary counts for luxury tax purposes, right? So, they could land a higher impact player - maybe ideally even on an expiring.
 

Cellar-Door

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If they wait for mid-season, only the pro-rated portion of the salary counts for luxury tax purposes, right? So, they could land a higher impact player - maybe ideally even on an expiring.
as far as I know, it isn't pro-rated, I believe they just used the player contracts you have on the books at time of calculation.
 

NomarsFool

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I don't know where I saw the source, but I'm pretty sure some of the limits are based on salary at the time, and some are based on a pro-rated salary.
 

Seabass177

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I was listening to Lowe's podcast with Chris Herring, and Herring made the point that about 75% of TPEs go unused, and those that are used are rarely for a good player. GSW just used theirs to land Oubre, but the bulk of them end up being a "We got something!" tweet from the team, and nothing more. Still, obviously better than nothing.
 

Cellar-Door

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I was listening to Lowe's podcast with Chris Herring, and Herring made the point that about 75% of TPEs go unused, and those that are used are rarely for a good player. GSW just used theirs to land Oubre, but the bulk of them end up being a "We got something!" tweet from the team, and nothing more. Still, obviously better than nothing.
It's covered in the other thread, but that's generally misleading. There are tons and tons of TPEs, most of them quite small and most of the biggest ones are created by teams selling off for a rebuild, which means they can't/won't get high salary good players, they're better served eating bad deals for picks. Contenders with good sized TPEs use them a good amount and often get rotation players. It's rare that a top team even has a big TPE to play with.
 

DGreenwood

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If you acquire a player mid year, his entire salary for the year counts for cap and luxury tax purposes, not a prorated portion. The team only pays a prorated portion but the entire thing counts against the cap.
 

nighthob

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If Boston ever could get this finished, I wouldn't mind seeing them use a portion of it on Cam Reddish since he looks to be the odd man out in Atlanta's playoff push.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I am not sure Charlotte will actually be able to lay off Batum's salary even with an asset attached (let's guess they flip whatever Celts send them to the team eating Batum) but it would be a pretty nice piece of work to effectively swap Batum's garbage $27 mil for Hayward's useul $30 mil....at least for year one. Years 2-4, well...not so much
 

pjheff

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I am not sure Charlotte will actually be able to lay off Batum's salary even with an asset attached (let's guess they flip whatever Celts send them to the team eating Batum) but it would be a pretty nice piece of work to effectively swap Batum's garbage $27 mil for Hayward's useul $30 mil....at least for year one. Years 2-4, well...not so much
I think it’s going to take a bigger asset to offload Batum’s contract than it will to facilitate a TPE.
 

ManicCompression

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Looking at BBall ref, here's a list of players who seem like they could be available over the next calendar year, possibly help the Celtics, and fit into the TPE:

- Rudy Gobert - if extension talks don't go well and Utah is not a serious contender, they could try to get some assets for him at the trade deadline
- Nikola Vukevic - Orlando has to tear this thing down at some point, right? Has three years left on his deal and there were rumors Ainge tried to sign him last year
- Lamarcus Aldridge - last year of his contract, but I don't think he's the best fit for what the Celtics are trying to do
- Draymond Green - If the Warriors are not in the playoff picture because of Klay's injury, it's possible (though unlikely) they start a fire sale and I think DG would be first to go. He's got four years left, though, and this could turn into one of the worst contracts in basketball shortly
- Victor Oladipo - last year of his contract and he doesn't really fit into the Pacers' plans anymore. However, I think he'd be a bad fit from a basketball perspective because he needs to be on ball
- Aaron Gordon - Same with Vukevic; I'm kind of intrigued by him as a small ball five, but I'm just not sure he'll ever buy in
- Miles Turner - this has been discussed ad nauseam and if Ainge wanted him, would've just done the sign and trade probably
- Fournier - I'm not sure the Celtics need another wing, but he can shoot and be a secondary ball handler
- JJ Redick - if the Cs can go all in on shooting, may be able to cover up his defensive liabilities
- Cody Zeller - evidence of how uninspiring this list is

I left out guys who'd be extremely unlikely to get traded, like Malcom Brogdon, and other players who are on negative value contracts, like Eric Gordon, Eric Bledsoe, old friend Terry Rozier, etc. Full list here. All in all, I just don't see a ton of productive pathways to using the TPE - it's more likely going to lead to a good bench piece than a starter-level asset. Hopefully DA and Zarren are more imaginative than me and can figure out how to spin it into someone like Gobert for a playoff run
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Looking at BBall ref, here's a list of players who seem like they could be available over the next calendar year, possibly help the Celtics, and fit into the TPE:

- Rudy Gobert - if extension talks don't go well and Utah is not a serious contender, they could try to get some assets for him at the trade deadline
- Nikola Vukevic - Orlando has to tear this thing down at some point, right? Has three years left on his deal and there were rumors Ainge tried to sign him last year
- Lamarcus Aldridge - last year of his contract, but I don't think he's the best fit for what the Celtics are trying to do
- Draymond Green - If the Warriors are not in the playoff picture because of Klay's injury, it's possible (though unlikely) they start a fire sale and I think DG would be first to go. He's got four years left, though, and this could turn into one of the worst contracts in basketball shortly
- Victor Oladipo - last year of his contract and he doesn't really fit into the Pacers' plans anymore. However, I think he'd be a bad fit from a basketball perspective because he needs to be on ball
- Aaron Gordon - Same with Vukevic; I'm kind of intrigued by him as a small ball five, but I'm just not sure he'll ever buy in
- Miles Turner - this has been discussed ad nauseam and if Ainge wanted him, would've just done the sign and trade probably
- Fournier - I'm not sure the Celtics need another wing, but he can shoot and be a secondary ball handler
- JJ Redick - if the Cs can go all in on shooting, may be able to cover up his defensive liabilities
- Cody Zeller - evidence of how uninspiring this list is

I left out guys who'd be extremely unlikely to get traded, like Malcom Brogdon, and other players who are on negative value contracts, like Eric Gordon, Eric Bledsoe, old friend Terry Rozier, etc. Full list here. All in all, I just don't see a ton of productive pathways to using the TPE - it's more likely going to lead to a good bench piece than a starter-level asset. Hopefully DA and Zarren are more imaginative than me and can figure out how to spin it into someone like Gobert for a playoff run
If OKC is involved in the C's talks with the Hornets, Danny Green is another name to watch. Its hard to see him staying in OKC and while he is on his decline slope, he clearly has a skillset the Cs can use.
 

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If Boston ever could get this finished, I wouldn't mind seeing them use a portion of it on Cam Reddish since he looks to be the odd man out in Atlanta's playoff push.
Agreed, but it would be a terrible look for ATL to give up so quickly on a lottery pick, no?
 

nighthob

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Agreed, but it would be a terrible look for ATL to give up so quickly on a lottery pick, no?
Well, technically, they already did when they signed another wing to start when they already had Hunter and Huerter ahead of him on the depth chart. My guess is that when everything's done Collins ends up someplace like OKC for a bunch of picks and Reddish languishes at the end of the bench until they quietly move him.
 

ManicCompression

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I'm not totally sure the Cs need another 3 and D wing, either. I'm probably putting too much faith in Romeo, but he can be 80% (maybe more) of Danny Green at this point in his career. If he can be around league average from corner threes and continue to show flashes on D, I'm okay with him filling that bench role w/ Semi and even Nesmith. There are at least options there.

IMO, the priorities for the Cs are:
- A shot creator who can pass and make smart decisions - with Hayward gone, we don't have a ton of that in reserve
- A big with some size who can either shoot or play really good D (or ideally do both). If Theis was 2-3 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier, he'd be incredible.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'm not totally sure the Cs need another 3 and D wing, either. I'm probably putting too much faith in Romeo, but he can be 80% (maybe more) of Danny Green at this point in his career. If he can be around league average from corner threes and continue to show flashes on D, I'm okay with him filling that bench role w/ Semi and even Nesmith. There are at least options there.

IMO, the priorities for the Cs are:
- A shot creator who can pass and make smart decisions - with Hayward gone, we don't have a ton of that in reserve
- A big with some size who can either shoot or play really good D (or ideally do both). If Theis was 2-3 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier, he'd be incredible.
It really depends on what the team thinks their realistic ceiling is this year. If Boston thinks they have a serious shot in the playoffs, Romeo is likely going to be of limited use only because he lacks real NBA experience, especially in high leverage moments. On the other hand, if they determine that their window really opens after this season, it behooves them to live and die with their young players.

The problem is this roster, coupled with the moves of some of the other Eastern contenders, means they may be just good enough to get out of the EC but not nearly good enough to compete with the top WC teams.
 

DJnVa

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The problem is this roster, coupled with the moves of some of the other Eastern contenders, means they may be just good enough to get out of the EC but not nearly good enough to compete with the top WC teams.
But shit happens (see Golden State). If you think this team is a playoff contender, you gotta play it that way.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Agreed, but it would be a terrible look for ATL to give up so quickly on a lottery pick, no?
More than just any lottery pick, the lottery pick that was their price from Dallas for trading down in the Luka/Trae trade. From a rational perspective, that shouldn’t matter, but would be a tough pill to swallow from a narrative perspective.
 

Cellar-Door

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One reason I think they hold it is..... what you need long term depends on Kemba.

If you see Kemba this year and decide you need to move off him, then you're looking for another scorer (not necessarily a PG) with that TPE. It lets you move Kemba on somewhere for what is likely to be.... not great return, but hopefully some cap relief (taking back 20M say?). But then try to trade, or preferably S&T (you get better players for less assets) for a player who wants to come here and be a scorer, and your flexibility with your 3 other guys (Smart, Tatum, Jaylen) means he can play anywhere and you can adjust accordingly.

If Kemba looks great, we aren't using the full TPE on one player probably. Oh maybe there is a disgruntled star we can mortgage a decade of picks for, but most likely we're using it on one or more rotation guys.
 

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I think that it's premature to forecast (or wishcast) the player that might be brought in on a TPE. Don't get me wrong--I expect Danny to use it. But its will be situation- dependent. If a guy falls into their lap as part of a sell-off at the trading deadline, and that guy is very impactful, they'll use it. Or if a key player has something catastrophic happen, but we're still in it, maybe then. Most likely I think it gets used on a max or near max guy next offseason, and which guy that is depends on who's available and on what we need most...next offseason. And that will depend on a year of seeing what leaps the Js take, what kids stick/leap, and what Kemba can give us. Too many variables to forecast what we'll do at the deadline, let alone next summer imo.
 

nighthob

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I'm not totally sure the Cs need another 3 and D wing, either. I'm probably putting too much faith in Romeo, but he can be 80% (maybe more) of Danny Green at this point in his career. If he can be around league average from corner threes and continue to show flashes on D, I'm okay with him filling that bench role w/ Semi and even Nesmith. There are at least options there.
Neither Langford nor Reddish are 3&D types. They're secondary shot creators with shaky jumpers. The big difference is that Reddish is taller/longer. But they're both lottery tickets at this point.

IMO, the priorities for the Cs are:
- A shot creator who can pass and make smart decisions - with Hayward gone, we don't have a ton of that in reserve
- A big with some size who can either shoot or play really good D (or ideally do both). If Theis was 2-3 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier, he'd be incredible.
Shot creation is why Langford would have been force fed minutes this year. But god only knows now coming off surgery. As for the second item, that guy is Tris Thompson. Boston just isn't terribly interested in the sort of player that you want (see their disinterest in Myles Turner). They want guys that play good positional defense, set good screens, pass effectively, and hopefully stay in front of guards on switches.
 

lovegtm

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Neither Langford nor Reddish are 3&D types. They're secondary shot creators with shaky jumpers. The big difference is that Reddish is taller/longer. But they're both lottery tickets at this point.



Shot creation is why Langford would have been force fed minutes this year. But god only knows now coming off surgery. As for the second item, that guy is Tris Thompson. Boston just isn't terribly interested in the sort of player that you want (see their disinterest in Myles Turner). They want guys that play good positional defense, set good screens, pass effectively, and hopefully stay in front of guards on switches.
Yeah it’s really weird to me that people think of Boston as a team that likes stretch 5s. I guess it’s because of Horford?

In reality, versatile and effective screening is a far more important offensive skill to Brad, particularly with Tatum and Kemba.
 

pjheff

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I expect Danny to use it. But its will be situation- dependent. If a guy falls into their lap as part of a sell-off at the trading deadline, and that guy is very impactful, they'll use it. Or if a key player has something catastrophic happen, but we're still in it, maybe then. Most likely I think it gets used on a max or near max guy next offseason, and which guy that is depends on who's available and on what we need most...next offseason.
What assets do you envision Ainge offering in such a scenario? For the first time in quite a while, he is not sitting on a treasure chest full of potential lottery picks from moribund franchises such as the Nets, Kings, and Grizzlies.
 

Cellar-Door

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What assets do you envision Ainge offering in such a scenario? For the first time in quite a while, he is not sitting on a treasure chest full of potential lottery picks from moribund franchises such as the Nets, Kings, and Grizzlies.
We still have as much as many teams, I mean look at the rumored Harden deal, or the Jrue deal.... we could match that pretty easily. If you are willing to mortgage picks you can get a deal. Also.... Smart is one of the better contracts in the league
 

Jimbodandy

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What assets do you envision Ainge offering in such a scenario? For the first time in quite a while, he is not sitting on a treasure chest full of potential lottery picks from moribund franchises such as the Nets, Kings, and Grizzlies.
And he didn't even want to offer those.

If it's a salary dump, it won't take much. At least with the TPE, he'll have flexibility.
 

mcpickl

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The Kemba situation makes it very difficult to figure out where the Celtics should invest that TPE. Do you upgrade at PG? Tough to do with a max player already at PG. I would more think to upgrade at the 5 so you have a really solid closing 5 for the playoffs. But, maybe TT thrives in Boston. My guess is they just save it for mid season and evaluate then
I would guess they use it instantly, at least a portion of it, in a three way deal with Charlotte.

They can't go into the season with their top options off the bench for wings being Grant Williams, Aaron Nesmith and Semi Ojeyele(assuming Romeo isn't ready by opening day)
 

lovegtm

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I would guess they use it instantly, at least a portion of it, in a three way deal with Charlotte.

They can't go into the season with their top options off the bench for wings being Grant Williams, Aaron Nesmith and Semi Ojeyele(assuming Romeo isn't ready by opening day)
Why not? They’d probably see at as losing some regular season wins in order to use the TPE in a more favorable spot.

We’re talking about ~45 mins/night total. They’re totally comfortable playing Grant and Semi for that amount.
 

Jimbodandy

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I would guess they use it instantly, at least a portion of it, in a three way deal with Charlotte.

They can't go into the season with their top options off the bench for wings being Grant Williams, Aaron Nesmith and Semi Ojeyele(assuming Romeo isn't ready by opening day)
You're forgetting Marcus there. Marcus was Gordon Hayward for much of last year. I'm not sure why this year would be any different.

Teague and Pritchard are BH2 and BH3 respectively.

edit: ...when Kemba plays
 

lovegtm

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You're forgetting Marcus there. Marcus was Gordon Hayward for much of last year. I'm not sure why this year would be any different.

Teague and Pritchard are BH2 and BH3 respectively.

edit: ...when Kemba plays
Na, he's (correctly) thinking of Marcus/Jaylen/Jayson as the 3 starting wings.
 

mcpickl

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Why not? They’d probably see at as losing some regular season wins in order to use the TPE in a more favorable spot.

We’re talking about ~45 mins/night total. They’re totally comfortable playing Grant and Semi for that amount.
Because I think as a contending team, they'd like to have a contender lineup. 45 mins/night total is a lot, and that's in perfect circumstances.

Add any injury, or night off for Kemba, now you need another 30 minutes or so from those guys or deeper into the bench(like Teague/Pritchard taking minuted if Kemba is out)

I also don't think, say they get a whopper TPE coming back for Hayward for like 27M, that they are expecting to add a 27M player with it. They wouldn't be able to use all of it in-season since they are hard capped at the apron by signing Thompson for the full MLE. And I don't think they'd try to add a player at that big a number in the offseason with Kemba/Tatum/Brown already on the books for almost 89M dollars at the minimum for next season.

I also think it'd easier to do deals in the offseason, rather than in season. If they can get a legit rotation wing right now for a good portion of that MLE now, I'd do it right now. Have that guy help you right away and have him locked in rather than hoping you'll find someone better at the deadline.
 

TripleOT

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Miami played two rookie and an unproven second year undrafted player 87 mpg. Toronto relied on Norman Powell, who never averaged more than 8.6ppg in four underwhelming seasons. The Lakers gave important minutes to Alex Caruso.

Teams need to get decent production from low cost players in spots 5-9 in their rotations. At least one of Grant, Nesmith, Romeo, or even Javonte should become a reliable every night rotation guy. I’d rather develop them than bring in some middling retread.

The luxury of having a max contract third wing only occurred because the two wings in front of him were on rookie deals. With over half their salary taken up by the Jays after this season, the team is going to have to rely on low cost wing production, especially if they plan on retaining Smart long term.

If the Celtics have to rely on their young unproven bench wings, they will have to set up their rotations where one Jay is on the court at all times, and just get them four or five more shots per game.
 

mcpickl

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Miami played two rookie and an unproven second year undrafted player 87 mpg. Toronto relied on Norman Powell, who never averaged more than 8.6ppg in four underwhelming seasons. The Lakers gave important minutes to Alex Caruso.

Teams need to get decent production from low cost players in spots 5-9 in their rotations. At least one of Grant, Nesmith, Romeo, or even Javonte should become a reliable every night rotation guy. I’d rather develop them than bring in some middling retread.

The luxury of having a max contract third wing only occurred because the two wings in front of him were on rookie deals. With over half their salary taken up by the Jays after this season, the team is going to have to rely on low cost wing production, especially if they plan on retaining Smart long term.

If the Celtics have to rely on their young unproven bench wings, they will have to set up their rotations where one Jay is on the court at all times, and just get them four or five more shots per game.
Do you think it's likely that two of them will become a reliable every night rotation guy this year?

Because they were a wing short last year, and they are minus one from last years rotation.

There will still be plenty of playing time available for these young guys to develop even if they bring in a "middling retread"

Smart/Tatum/Brown aren't going to play every game this year.