He was waived, they can re-acquire him however they want. I think you may be confusing this with traded players. You can't reacquire a player you trade away for 1 season except in some narrow exceptions.
Cavalry Candidates
- Thread starter bakahump
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I've seen a lot of imprecise and conflicting reporting from so-called reporters and bloggers about this possibility, so the confusion is warranted.
Gallinari was waived by the Spurs, in time to avoid his full 2022-23 salary from becoming guaranteed. Normally, he would be eligible to be traded back to the Spurs, as there is nothing to prevent a waived player from being traded back to the original team.
However, there is the complication that the Spurs and Hawks agreed to increase Gallo's guaranteed portion of his 2022-23 salary in order to make the cap numbers work out when he was traded to the Spurs. So it's possible that the NBA CBA could treat the Gallinari waiver as a buyout by the Spurs. The CBA does have a clause that a player that is bought out cannot be traded back to the original team until the end of the term of the original contract, which is intended to prevent teams from using buyouts to circumvent the cap. I don't agree with the interpretation that Gallo's waiver is buyout, but the CBA is full of arcane clauses. Unfortunately, none of the reporters and bloggers noted above have bothered to dig into this issue.
Huh, I thought it applied to both. I remember our shenanigans with trading Gary Payton, the team other team waiving him and him signing back here killed that. I'm probably losing my mind but I swear I heard it somewhere I trusted. Oh well
I will add, after the last few weeks, I think what the team needs most, big assumption on health, is a 3D wing over a big. Kornet has shown more than Hauser in their respective roles, plus Kornet can space way better than Poeltl which allows the team to stay in their preferred offense
Agreed. If Boston has to surrender any significant assets for a rotation player, they should be looking for the area of biggest need. An upgrade of their bigs would certainly help mitigate concerns around Horford's milage or TLs knee but if those two are ok, that leaves another big Kornet's regular season mpg - around 12 - and likely fewer when the playoffs begin.
Hauser averages just under 15 mpg so upgrading those minutes while building more wing depth seems like a better use of resources, even if the player acquired also gets more limited run in the playoffs.
Another wing gives the team a bit more defensive versatility imo.
Interesting, thanks for the info. I did a quick internet search and in basic terms a player being waived is a one sided decision, while a buyout is mutual. I guess it depends on how the increase was agreed upon. If he just took the pay raise to make the deal work, it would appear that he was waived, but if he agreed to the restructure with the condition SA will let him go I can see the grey area. Though I myself would probably call that a buyout since it took both parties involved to make happen
Poeltl always had the physicals and grew his skillset into that body. Kornet doesn’t have the same physicals so I have his ceiling much lower. Poeltl has been a quality starter the past couple years…..I don’t foresee Kornet ever reaching that level.
I’m not disparaging Kornet as he’s shown to be a 2nd unit rotation player which will make him some money after next season. This is far different than him being a guy you want on the floor in the 4Q of critical playoff games.
That’s a big leap he took. To me, he’s like Pritchard in that they don’t really have much more to their ceiling. He should stick around for some years though if he continues to put the work in.
Yup to all of it. Also I wonder what Brad is actually looking for. He seems willing to be aggressive to go get who he wants, but aims a little higher and with term than I think most of us expected on his first few deals. I don't follow the rest of the NBA that closely outside of fantasy so I'm not up on a lot of players defensive numbers. However, a guy I've had my eye on since last year just dropped 26 on us in Jalen McDaniels. Now I don't think he is an option because CHA I'm sure wants to keep him and he would require a ton to trade for. He is also is a FA at the end of the season, but he seems more in line with what Brad would be looking for with the intention of extending him. Another guy in that vein is Kevin Knox with a team option for next year. Again, we know very little about how Brad operates, but he seems like he'd rather add players in trades that will help multiple years
I don’t think Brad will be looking to add younger players looking to find their niche in the league like Knox or looking for minutes/numbers to get their first big contract.
I'm with Eddie, with the added bit of thinking that Brad may feel confident that Gallinari can still be that guy and he's already under contract.
Yeah I know McDaniels wasn't a great comp, he's got too much upside. Knox though is in his 6th year, playing 14.6 minutes a game, most he's averaged since his second season. I would think 3D bench/fringe starter is his upside at this point. Plus Brad might want to cover the team in case Grant leaves. Maybe Grant is asking way more than what the team wants to pay him, and if the team declined Knox's $3 mil team option and gave him say 3/$36 mil they'd keep that salary on the books. It also only takes one team to offer Grant stupid money. I dunno, I just don't see it as far fetched when involving Brad and 1sts.
This is what I think as well.
I don't get the Poeltl fit for Boston. He's just injury insurance for the Celtics.
Would be bizarre if the Spurs couldn't get a better offer from a team that has a much greater need.
Brad has basically added high-end complimentary players that add value. Horford, White, and Brogdon all have consistently shown positive +/- and On-Off.
Kevin Knox has never had a positive On-Off or +/- .
He's like a terrible version of Aaron Nesmith
If they permanently wanted to play Horford as a 4 (suggested above), then a combo of TL/Poeltl at the 5 would make a ton of sense (in addition to Rob insurance)
The C's would have a long/strong 9 (that could be shaved down to 8 in the playoffs) of
TimeLord, Horford, Tatum, Brown, Smart
Poeltl, Grant, Brogdon, White
Horford playing all of his minutes at the 4(which I'd never do) is still minutes as a big. How would it even work? Al and Grant split all the minutes at the 4 and Rob and Poeltl split all the minutes at the 5 with no small lineups? They'd all be playing less than expected minutes, even if they played with two bigs 100% of the time.
Since Celtics still prefer to close halves with Tatum at the 4, you're talking maybe 88 minutes max from your bigs, probably less.
88 minutes max from your three bigs is perfect.
88 minutes max from four bigs is a luxury.
Other teams that need Poeltl to be more than a luxury should be going harder for him than Boston.
Kornet is signed for 2 years at like 2.25 M a year. That is cheap. Poeltl is on the last year of a 3 year, 26.25 million contract. He has a standing offer of a 4 year 58 M ext with SA that he has repeatedly declined. That is not cheap.
Shams started the Celtic/Poeltl rumor...like all rumors small chance of happening
BUT if it did happen this is the 9-man rotation I'd expect. CJM could mix/match in numerous ways. small, big, and in between. Horford has spent years expressing his desire to play on the perimeter.
Yep other teams should have more or similar interest in Poeltl. What teams do you have?
Poeltl is a much better player then Luke Kornet.
$9.4M/yr for an NBA starter at Poeltl's level is dirt cheap. How do you feel about TimeLord's contract? Because thats also dirt cheap. or Al's $10M extensions?
You could only add him if you punted Gallinari's $6.5M contract
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Agree on what he has already shown, and that's why I think he's going to target a younger option who can be around for more than just this year. I admitted in my original post about this I don't know much about role players on other teams, I was using Knox as both an option and a placeholder, probably should have been more clear about that. I trust your word on Knox, he was a bad choice, but there must be a few guys that fit the mold
Knox was a high pick that flamed out pretty quickly. Romeo/Aaron had trouble adding value around here.
Brad has most of the roster signed for numerous years. Even Grant is an RFA and they can match any offer. It probably comes down to how much Wyc wants to shell out in tax $$$.
HRB makes a good point, young players want to play, score and get their first sizeable contract. Human nature. If Brad adds a player it's probably a veteran
This is getting silly. Yes Poeltl is a better (or different style of) player then Kornet. His current salary is inexpensive for the starting center for even one of the worst teams in the NBA. But we are not talking about trading for him to be the starter, we are talking about him playing behind (P)TL and Horford with the idea of him maybe, eventually, replacing Horford. This would be nice if he was agreeable to that, but the indications are that he wants to get paid next year and maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t want to spend his prime playing caddy to PTL and Horford. The likelihood of him being a rental is high and I think it would be a mistake to give away the store for a rental 3rd string center, no matter how overqualified he is.
There are better uses for our resources.
If there are better uses for our resources who is the big that is available as that appears to be our greatest need as well as greatest insurance policy for the playoffs? Kornet provides value to the Spurs next year as a cheap rotation big so maybe they simply accept Kornet and the low #1.
Maybe.
We won’t know a better use for our resources and our greatest need until after the next injury. In the meantime, maybe a poll would be fun to find out what people think they will actually do by the trade deadline. I think that they are going to do nothing (unless that injury happens).
Even if nothing materializes with Jakob P I would expect Brad to use these draft picks to add someone at the deadline. Having those picks sitting there on draft night doesn’t help this team and we aren’t in developmental mode.
Just note that the Celtics don't own their 2023 pick, which was sent to Indy for Brogdon. That means nothing is available to trade until 2025.
Kornet is taking 0.6 3s per 36 minutes. He's nearly always playing inside, and spaces out extremely rarely.
Not saying they'll go get Poeltl, but preferred offense is not the reason not to. I think the Celtics actually prefer to have a center inside for vertical spacing and rebounding, and that's a reason they like Horford more and more as a 4 now.
This is close to where I am. If he's going to be a rental, I wouldn't throw in more than a second round pick (or two) and the extreme end of the bench guys (not Pritchard). And it seems doubtful Poeltl would want to resign here at a modest price, as he's moving into his prime earning years (he's 27 now). I'd rather look for a young, raw big who can jump like Claxton and has the chance to develop into something. True, someone like this probably won't have a three-point shot, but we can live without that if he's not on the floor with Rob.
I also think Celtics would do well to have another vet wing on the roster---that may well be a ring-chaser but I worry about Hauser in a playoff setting. I like the profile, but the on-court guy hasn't shown he can do it against playoff teams.
This is a luxury-level need, of course. And I assume some of that type of player will be bought out after the deadline----so it doesn't mean we couldn't deal for Poeltl, but as others note I suspect Celts will be outbid there. Josh Richardson is one possibility
This is a luxury-level need, of course. And I assume some of that type of player will be bought out after the deadline----so it doesn't mean we couldn't deal for Poeltl, but as others note I suspect Celts will be outbid there. Josh Richardson is one possibility
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Celtics are currently projected for the 42nd, 50th & 60th pick in the '23 draft.
https://www.tankathon.com/mock_draft
I understand what you're saying and Boston does need super cheap players like Kornet, Pritchard, Hauser to round out the regular season roster. I like Luke and think he has an NBA future which is not something any of us would have said a season ago. BUT this is a really good time to GFIN. The League is jammed packed with parity. There isn't a dominant team in sight. A lot of rivals are depending heavily on aging stars. The JAYs are just starting to enter their primes. The two Achilles heals this team has is TimeLord's injury history and Horford's age. Neither can play in a back-to-back, which isn't an issue in the playoffs but does tell you how fragile they are.
If Brad needs to overpay with younger players (PP) & prospects (Begarin) & 2nds (they are just $$$) to go get a Poeltl for a season, Daniel Gafford, or another Center to be the 9th man it's perfectly acceptable IMO.
The current Celtics, if healthy, would never need to play Hauser in the playoffs. BUT it would need 10-12mpg from a Center if TL/Al are in the starting lineup. Especially if they draw Embiid or Giannis/Lopez/Portis in the playoffs
In addition, I'd rather not cross our fingers on TimeLord's health, Horford's continued revitalization, and Luke not pumpkining.
If the playoffs started today, I think Hauser would be out of the rotation - he’d be #11 on a team that generally plays 8 or 9.
At this point, the question before the Celtics is: do they need a deal for a third wing or can they get those minutes from some double big/three guard lineups.
Maybe Hauser will get out of his funk and play himself back into consideration, but for this season I am not holding my breath.
The more I think about it the less I like the idea of a Poetl trade. I don't think we need a big that badly, and particularly if you're sending out a 1st for a big I want him to be able to be insurance for BOTH Horford and TL, Poetl is strictly TL insurance, he can't play Al's role and he can't share the floor with TL, that means his only real playoff role is a few minutes max unless TL gets hurt given the amount of time guys play in the playoffs and the amount we'll likely go small. There is just a really limited situation where playing him is better than playing the current top 8.
I don't really like the idea of dropping a first for a Poeltl rental, but the idea makes sense in some ways. Anyone saying "He's only injury insurance" on a team that plays Rob Williams has the memory of a goldfish.
Exactly. If TL goes down, which history would suggest is a distinct possibility, the dynamic changes totally.
Absolutely.
IMO, it’s not even a question or a discussion as to what this team needs the most. Another veteran wing would be nice but it’s not even close to the level of need as a real 3rd big. That’s the area of the team with the least amount of depth and the two biggest red flags (TimeLord being injury prone and Al being old). Kornet has outplayed my expectations by a decent amount but I still don’t want any part of him being forced to play serious minutes in a playoff game.
Jared Weiss does an excellent job for the Athletic. He makes a nice point here:
https://theathletic.com/4101845/2023/01/18/celtics-trade-jakob-poeltl/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983
Considering Rob Williams’ health track record and Horford’s load management program, there is ample opportunity for Poeltl during the regular season. Horford would likely welcome Poeltl, considering his predilection to play the four and limit his wear and tear with the tread on his career almost gone. Horford is playing 30.5 minutes per game while Luke Kornet has carved out 11.8 of his own. There’s room to get Horford down to the mid-20s and get Poeltl closer to his 26.5, even as Williams’ minutes were finally approaching the 30 mark on the last road trip.
But Kornet has played above his pay grade so far and has fulfilled what the team asks of him. Once they get to the postseason, the backup center is only going to see the floor if someone ahead of him on the depth chart is out.
According to team sources, Celtics management recognizes the possibility Rob Williams could miss games in the playoffs, and replicating Horford’s minutes load from last postseason will be difficult since he isn’t coming off the massive offseason he enjoyed in Oklahoma City in 2021.
https://theathletic.com/4101845/2023/01/18/celtics-trade-jakob-poeltl/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983
Considering Rob Williams’ health track record and Horford’s load management program, there is ample opportunity for Poeltl during the regular season. Horford would likely welcome Poeltl, considering his predilection to play the four and limit his wear and tear with the tread on his career almost gone. Horford is playing 30.5 minutes per game while Luke Kornet has carved out 11.8 of his own. There’s room to get Horford down to the mid-20s and get Poeltl closer to his 26.5, even as Williams’ minutes were finally approaching the 30 mark on the last road trip.
But Kornet has played above his pay grade so far and has fulfilled what the team asks of him. Once they get to the postseason, the backup center is only going to see the floor if someone ahead of him on the depth chart is out.
According to team sources, Celtics management recognizes the possibility Rob Williams could miss games in the playoffs, and replicating Horford’s minutes load from last postseason will be difficult since he isn’t coming off the massive offseason he enjoyed in Oklahoma City in 2021.
Trading a low 1st round pick and Kornet (or whatever low end player you need to put in) isn’t exactly “giving away the store.”
HRB has been beating this drum for a while but low 1sts just don’t really move the needle or serve much of a purpose for this roster/team. There are pretty much no minutes available, there’s no patience for allowing players to grow or develop. Basically they are going to be used on foreign players that the C’s can stash and that is no longer any sort of inefficiency. Pretty much everyone wants to do it so by the time the Celtics get to pick its an extreme lottery ticket
Someone will offer a first for him. Not only do we not have a first to offer in 2023, trading a 2024 first is a huge leap for a backup center (and means we have to hold on to the 2025 first under NBA rules). Frankly, if we do pay what Poeltl can command in a trade, it probably means management has no faith in Al having gas in the tank for the playoffs, that TL is held together with spit and glue, or that something is off with Derrick White or Marcus that requires Jaylen to move to guard, none of which would be good news.
Yes, but the reason to add that wing is to manage injuries, not to play them much when all healthy. Planning for 4 playoff series requires that depth---whether it's Kornet or another wing. That's the reason to explore it.
I wouldn't deal a lot to get either of those parts personally (I suggested buy-out market for the wing, and I would only get a big if it's someone materially better than Kornet which I doubt is available at a price I'd pay). And I also wouldn't assume full health
I'd love Crowder as a free agent---I don't see a deal for him given his salary (and limited value/role given duplicativity of Grant).
I don't have a great sense whether he will be dealt or bought up, though I agree one will happen. It's a little surprising he hasn't been dealt yet and that may speak to lack of interest? Or chaos in Suns front office, or both
Yeah, no chance they buy out Crowder I don't think.
Honestly maybe the ideal guy would be Olynyk given he can play 5 but also shoot in the Horford role, but he makes a tiny bit too much money to make a trade work and he won't get bought out.
Tough to find a true big who can shoot well enough to backup both big roles, those guys get paid too much.
One reason I think they'll explore the 6'8" or 6'9" SF/PF swings that would relieve pressure on everyone and let them go to a 1 big lineup if there is an injury.
Honestly maybe the ideal guy would be Olynyk given he can play 5 but also shoot in the Horford role, but he makes a tiny bit too much money to make a trade work and he won't get bought out.
Tough to find a true big who can shoot well enough to backup both big roles, those guys get paid too much.
One reason I think they'll explore the 6'8" or 6'9" SF/PF swings that would relieve pressure on everyone and let them go to a 1 big lineup if there is an injury.
Well, that's true. If Jaylen's injury is any worse than is being let on, that's reason to make a move.
But I think we're still talking about the #9 Celtic, or someone competing for the #9 slot with the likes of Kornet and Pritchard.
Is he? I think of him mostly as a #4 these days and I'm not sure what minutes there would be for him - which would lead me to wonder if he would want to be here.
That said, if he came available in the buyout market I'd want Brad to go after him.
Even with Brown out right now, Hauser is getting minimal looks. Barring injury or major trade, I don't see playoff minutes significant playoff minutes for anyone beyond our top 8.
I mean, against a certain opponent, I could maybe see Mazzulla looking at the opposing lineup on the floor and thinking, "Hey, I could steal a minute with Kornet against this group!" and doing it. But I think we'll be mostly an 8-man playoff rotation and we have the 8.
It's about cost to me. If Spurs want to dump Richardson's salary and get worse for Wemby and the best offer is the 50th pick this year, I'd do that (if we can trade-wise)---the 50th pick is almost worthless to Celtics. If they want a future 1st, I'd just roll with Hauser since this is a depth pickup (I agree another wing is not likely to play much/at all if everyone's healthy)
I see Crowder today--- a couple years older and in a league a bit smaller overall than when last here---as a 4 who can slide sometimes a bit to 3 and occasionally as a 5, but not a versatile combo wing anymore. I have to think someone deals for him, but I don't rule out there's not a market and he's bought up. He's been very on the market for several months with nothing.
I see Crowder today--- a couple years older and in a league a bit smaller overall than when last here---as a 4 who can slide sometimes a bit to 3 and occasionally as a 5, but not a versatile combo wing anymore. I have to think someone deals for him, but I don't rule out there's not a market and he's bought up. He's been very on the market for several months with nothing.
Crowder is refusing to play because the team won't start him. He isn't starting here so I don't think it's a very good fit.
It's not a thought I would let too many people know about--San Antonio would laugh at that offer and they'd be right to.
Poeltl has value to us 3 ways:
1) Upgrading Kornet's minutes
2) Decreasing the # of minutes TL needs to play, allowing us to rest him for more games, or more portions of games, to preserve the odometer
3) Plausible step-in replacement for a TL injury, be it short or long term, because Kornet / Griffin / Al-at-the-5 is kinda ugly to contemplate
He also, as was noted, costs a lot less than his value this year. Is getting him a need? No. Is that value worth a 2025 first-round pick? Unlikely, in my view, but arguable with the right protections. Is that the highest-and-best use of trade capital right now? I'm struggling to identify many places we could reasonably upgrade the rotation, other than:
(1) Dumping Grant's expiring. This has value to trade partners, but Grant probably has more value to us for the remainder of the season than to an acquirer, plus we have the RFA-matching threat.
(2) Upgrading Hauser (as mentioned above). Any acquired upgrade would add a lot of luxury tax, given that Hauser barely costs the vet minimum, and is signed for two more seasons after this one. Finding better players than Hauser isn't hard. DARKO has him at -1.14 DPM (-0.24 offense, -0.90 defense), with his career arc having peaked and even receding a bit. Are there decent options for such an upgrade, leaving aside the price tag in assets?
Someone mentioned Crowder upthread, he's a similar 3-and-D role, at +1.22 (-0.61 offense, +1.83 defense), on an upswing the last season and a half in Phoenix, although he's sat the entire season thus far (despite now being healthy). He knows our system, would cost similar to Poeltl ($10.2 pro-rated) but within our exemptions. I dunno if the risk of getting him is worth it if Phoenix refuses to put him on the floor and give the league some tape on him.
Suppose we do get him, though. Is that better for our team than a Poeltl trade that would provide those 3 aspects of value above? An acquired Crowder would have almost no playoff role, and when on the floor he'd be a 4th option on offense at best. An acquired Poeltl would have minimal playoff role, unless there's a TL injury in which case he has a critical playoff role. I find it hard to believe that's not more important to our championship odds than upgrading Hauser right now.
1) Upgrading Kornet's minutes
2) Decreasing the # of minutes TL needs to play, allowing us to rest him for more games, or more portions of games, to preserve the odometer
3) Plausible step-in replacement for a TL injury, be it short or long term, because Kornet / Griffin / Al-at-the-5 is kinda ugly to contemplate
He also, as was noted, costs a lot less than his value this year. Is getting him a need? No. Is that value worth a 2025 first-round pick? Unlikely, in my view, but arguable with the right protections. Is that the highest-and-best use of trade capital right now? I'm struggling to identify many places we could reasonably upgrade the rotation, other than:
(1) Dumping Grant's expiring. This has value to trade partners, but Grant probably has more value to us for the remainder of the season than to an acquirer, plus we have the RFA-matching threat.
(2) Upgrading Hauser (as mentioned above). Any acquired upgrade would add a lot of luxury tax, given that Hauser barely costs the vet minimum, and is signed for two more seasons after this one. Finding better players than Hauser isn't hard. DARKO has him at -1.14 DPM (-0.24 offense, -0.90 defense), with his career arc having peaked and even receding a bit. Are there decent options for such an upgrade, leaving aside the price tag in assets?
Someone mentioned Crowder upthread, he's a similar 3-and-D role, at +1.22 (-0.61 offense, +1.83 defense), on an upswing the last season and a half in Phoenix, although he's sat the entire season thus far (despite now being healthy). He knows our system, would cost similar to Poeltl ($10.2 pro-rated) but within our exemptions. I dunno if the risk of getting him is worth it if Phoenix refuses to put him on the floor and give the league some tape on him.
Suppose we do get him, though. Is that better for our team than a Poeltl trade that would provide those 3 aspects of value above? An acquired Crowder would have almost no playoff role, and when on the floor he'd be a 4th option on offense at best. An acquired Poeltl would have minimal playoff role, unless there's a TL injury in which case he has a critical playoff role. I find it hard to believe that's not more important to our championship odds than upgrading Hauser right now.
I just don't see the issue at wing. The Celtics have 4 guys who can play 3/4 (Al, Grant, Tatum, Brown), and then 3-4 guards (Smart, DWhite, Brogdon, PP). Brown can play 2-4, and Smart/White can play the 3 in three-guard lineups.
They haven't had trouble with Brown out rotationally--just the drop off from losing his talent. They play Grant more, they play Al at the 4 more, some 3-guard lineups, and it's all good.
The Celtics could lose any one of their 8 guards/wings, besides Tatum & Brown, and make it through a tough playoff series.
Center is.....not like that. If Rob goes down, you have Al, Kornet, and Blake. Al is already having trouble protecting the rim, Kornet is fine but limited, and Blake should not see the floor in a playoff series.
I'm not saying GET POELTL, but I am saying that C depth is a way bigger issue than wing depth for the Celtics.
They haven't had trouble with Brown out rotationally--just the drop off from losing his talent. They play Grant more, they play Al at the 4 more, some 3-guard lineups, and it's all good.
The Celtics could lose any one of their 8 guards/wings, besides Tatum & Brown, and make it through a tough playoff series.
Center is.....not like that. If Rob goes down, you have Al, Kornet, and Blake. Al is already having trouble protecting the rim, Kornet is fine but limited, and Blake should not see the floor in a playoff series.
I'm not saying GET POELTL, but I am saying that C depth is a way bigger issue than wing depth for the Celtics.