Celtic 2014-15: Exit Red Thunder

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CodPiece XL

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I've been travelling so I heard the news this afternoon. Not surprising really. He sees all his best players leave, the board appear to only want to spend money once they qualify for the CL, meanwhile,  between end of season and the CL qualifiers, the best players are sold. There are few significant signings prior and a short desperate period where they are frantically trying to sign players once they know they are in. He's pissing into the wind with that type of thinking...he was probably told what his budget was and thought..screw this.
 
Lawell and the board appear to show little or no ambition to improve the squad. They seem satisfied by trying to squeak into the CL yet show no ambition to go any further. They sign the likes of Pukki, Griffiths, Balde and Boerrigter and I doubt any of them were Lennon's first choices. The squad has a bunch of flotsam and jetson. One year removed from getting into the last 16, they were slaughtered by Barcelona, completely out played by Milan and lucky to get any points in the group period. Not forgetting squeaky bum time playing a bunch of nobodies in the qualifying rounds.
 
I've never been a big fan of Lennon and I never bought into his "bring back the thunder " shit. However, I thought he did a decent job, my only gripe was that he should have had at least one treble, if not two. He should have been given the funds to build on his success in Europe, but instead, Lawell and the money men wanted to cash in. I can understand to a certain extent but that's running a business, not a football team. The average fan wants a squad to be improved upon and Celtic have never had a better period in time where the door was wide open to get into the CL year after year with guaranteed millions. I think the fans deserve better , I thought Lennon deserved better....if Lawell opens his eyes he can't fail to see the fans staying away in droves, Lennon is not the only one walking away.
 
Step on down Malky MacKay..Stevie Clarke.....who else is in the running? The new manager won't play Mulgrew in midfiled....right??
 

Biggreenone

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CodPiece XL said:
I've been travelling so I heard the news this afternoon. Not surprising really. He sees all his best players leave, the board appear to only want to spend money once they qualify for the CL, meanwhile,  between end of season and the CL qualifiers, the best players are sold. There are few significant signings prior and a short desperate period where they are frantically trying to sign players once they know they are in. He's pissing into the wind with that type of thinking...he was probably told what his budget was and thought..screw this.
 
Lawell and the board appear to show little or no ambition to improve the squad. They seem satisfied by trying to squeak into the CL yet show no ambition to go any further. They sign the likes of Pukki, Griffiths, Balde and Boerrigter and I doubt any of them were Lennon's first choices. The squad has a bunch of flotsam and jetson. One year removed from getting into the last 16, they were slaughtered by Barcelona, completely out played by Milan and lucky to get any points in the group period. Not forgetting squeaky bum time playing a bunch of nobodies in the qualifying rounds.
 
I've never been a big fan of Lennon and I never bought into his "bring back the thunder " shit. However, I thought he did a decent job, my only gripe was that he should have had at least one treble, if not two. He should have been given the funds to build on his success in Europe, but instead, Lawell and the money men wanted to cash in. I can understand to a certain extent but that's running a business, not a football team. The average fan wants a squad to be improved upon and Celtic have never had a better period in time where the door was wide open to get into the CL year after year with guaranteed millions. I think the fans deserve better , I thought Lennon deserved better....if Lawell opens his eyes he can't fail to see the fans staying away in droves, Lennon is not the only one walking away.
 
Step on down Malky MacKay..Stevie Clarke.....who else is in the running? The new manager won't play Mulgrew in midfiled....right??
Pretty much nailed it.

Word I am hearing is we can expect 'the return of the magnificent 7'.

This would tick all the boxes for Lawwell -:

* Unlikely to get grief from supporters as HL is a legend
* Young manager in first big job so unlikely to be making demands on the CEO that gave him the chance and will toe the line.

Basically Lennon mk 2 but with a higher standing amongst the fans.

Personally I believe he is way too inexperienced and it's way too soon.

MacKay / Clarke / Lambert would be my short list.

Lenny gave us same great moments both as a player and manager. I've met him a few times and he's a really top bloke and I wish him every success. Nobody should have had to put up with the shit he got in his time in Scotland.
 

CodPiece XL

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I agree why the board may go for HL. Like you say, he ticks all the boxes and takes the heat off them . However, are they likely to risk the 20 Million or so hiring an inexperienced manager and not making the CL? That's too much of a risk I would have thought, not unless they give him a budget of around 10 million which is just as unlikely. I think the job will go to MacKay or Clarke...which ever is the cheaper.
 
I'm a huge fan of Lambert, he was  heck of a player, very cerebral. I remember him playing for Motherwell againts Dortmund and they signed him a few years later. Then he shackled Zidane in the European final, I even think he set up the opening goal. He learned other languages, gained coaching status in Germany, he's quiet and doesn't seek attention. He's used to working within financial constraints and is prudent in his transfer dealings. He's not afraid to blood younger players. BUT, he kept Aston Villa up with a bunch of kids ( horrific home record, gave up too much possession)  I think he will feel his work is not done...also.....he's in the EPL, good wages,,,,,, it's a pipedream..
 
The realist in me can see MacKay making an immediate impact and I'd probably be comfortable with him leading the team into the CL qualifiers.I'm not sure how much of a "yes man " he is....but if the transfer budget is where I think it will be....he probably says thanks...but no thanks.
 

Biggreenone

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Welcome to Paradise Ronny Deila.

I won't pretend to know much about him but I have to say I like this imaginative appointment. It's something different than picking someone off the EPL / SPL merry go round.

Thumbs up from me.
 

CodPiece XL

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Ronny Deila:
 
The positives:
 
  1. An innovative hire, young with fresh ideas, something new, a new slate.
  2. Has a record of youth development
  3. Has a record of playing exciting football, fluid fast back to front passing game with wing backs.
  4. Likes to play a high pressing game.  
  5. Used to having a very limited budget…trust me he will have a very limited budget
  6. Not a Catholic Northern Irishman ( from a safety point of view , probably good, less for the bigoted vermin to get in a frenzy about). Sad but true
  7. He’s not Roy Keane
 
The negatives:
 
 
  1. Who the hell is Ronny Deila
  2. Who the hell is Ronny Delia
  3. Little or no experience of CL football
  4. Young and not much experience, could completely backfire, maybe too risky a gamble with CL money on the line
  5.  Perhaps not the big name some fans wanted
  6. Who the hell is Ronny Delia
 
Me: Cautiously optimistic, I like it, thinking outside the box. If Celtic make it to the CL stages I’ll be happy. The league is a given, so Ronny for the treble in his first season.
 
Can he rescue Tony Watt and harness that natural ability? I doubt it, by all accounts he does not like lazy players.
 
So, the strong rumors are that Craig Gordon is signing….a precursor for The Wall moving south?
 

CodPiece XL

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Yuuup. And they will be playing the home leg in Edinburgh.
 


CELTIC are currently in discussions with KR Reykjavik over the possibility of swapping the legs of the UEFA Champions League Second Qualifying Round tie.
The Hoops will face the Icelandic side, with the first leg scheduled as a home tie on July 15/16. The return leg would be a week later, on July 22/23.
Discussions as to the possibility of Celtic playing the first leg in Iceland are ongoing, and supporters will be updated as soon as possible.


 
http://www.celticfc.net/news/6113
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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Celtic move on to the third round of CL qualifying after winning 4-0 yesterday. They'll face either St. Patrick's Athletic of Legia Warsaw.
 
Meanwhile, Southampton put in a bid for GK Fraser Forster, which Deila quickly dismissed. Celtic are supposedly looking for a £9m transfer fee for Forster, the Southampton bid was less than half of that.
 
From the Herald:
 
"We want to keep Fraser," he said. "We want to qualify for the Champions League and build our team further. So we want to keep him here. He has not indicated any desire to leave. He came to Celtic and has done a good job here, but Celtic has also been fantastic for him. I hope that continues because we need our best players and he is a fantastic goalkeeper.
 
"In the end, something will happen, but whether it happens now or in the winter or next summer I don't know; we just have to keep on going. Things happen around my players all the time. But Fraser is an unbelievable professional and I know he wants to play in the Champions League."
 
 

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Did anyone watch it? I saw some of the first leg in the boozer and after watching the World Cup it was a tough watch...not knocking Celtic, but the presentation was a bit tinky and the Scottish commentator i dunno his  name but he comes across as a bit of a jakey caught in the headlights.
 

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Caught most of it. Celtic totally dominated, could have easily been 9-0. Pukki looked very good, but that could be more the quality of the opposing side than him showing an improvement in Deila's system.
 

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I have to say Delia comes across very well in print and also on TV interviews. I think he has a good take and understanding of the game. I know they are looking at players atm, and i like that he's stated the type of player Celtic want, as opposed to just doffing his cap to the board. be interesting to see how Celtic play this year.
 

Biggreenone

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Well that went well !!!  a 4-1 defeat to Legia Warsaw.
 
Dire stuff - Legia miss two penalties or it could have been a lot lot worse.
 
Welcome to life in the Euro slow lane Ronny.
 
RD getting pelters for his team selection - and rightly so. Berget starts a CL qualifier and he's only been at the club a few minutes? Matthews at LB ? Mulgrew centre mid ? Pukki ?
 
It was as bad as Artmedia.
 
Legia were not even a really good team. A wee bit of discipline and keep ball and our 10 men (Ambrose seen red before HT) could have escaped with a 3-1 or even 2-1 defeat which kept the tie alive. At 4-1 it will take a miracle at Murrayfield.
 
Another Celtic manager with a baptism of fire - this time a very costly financial one.
 
The growing gap between the Euro haves and have nots is now seriously depressing and in all likelihood tonight that gap just got even bigger for Celtic.
 

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We need a proper striker. Not sold on Pukki and I don't see Stokes being the guy this year to lean on in Europe.
 

Biggreenone

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The Celtbot said:
We need a proper striker. Not sold on Pukki and I don't see Stokes being the guy this year to lean on in Europe.
 
From what I am hearing Stokes is out of favour with Deila.
 
Midfield was the issue - overrun for 90 minutes.
 

Biggreenone

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Pitiful display - totally mullered by an average Legia team. We dont deserve the right to get horsed by all and sundry in the CL group stages.
 
How far we have fallen. We have went from Larsson / Sutton  to Hooper / Wanyama to Stokes / Griffiths.
 
I know it's hard to justify serious expenditure while playing in Scotland - but we need to show a lot more ambition than we have over the past few seasons. Every player leaving is being replaced by players of inferior quality. The fans will continue to vote with their feet.
 

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Word is that Bartosz Bereszynskiego wasn't put on the CL roster for Legia's tie with St. Patrick's, which would have allowed him to serve his suspension for a red card at the end of last season.  So he should have been suspended for the Celtic tie.
 
It makes me wonder why the hell UEFA doesn't tell clubs which players are available before a tie so this doesn't happen, but for Celtic supporters, this could be a chance to watch them get waxed two more times.
 

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FIFA also doesn't tell club which players are ineligible. You'd never see an NBA team play a guy who was suspended. 
 
I'm not sure what exactly UEFA and FIFA do.
 

Biggreenone

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PedroSpecialK said:
Apparently, Legia fielded an ineligible player for the final 4 minutes of the 2nd leg...
 
link
 
UEFA sit at 9 am GMT today to decide Legia's fate. Precedent and the UEFA rule book points to a 3-0 win for Celtic.
 
it seems the error was spotted by the UEFA observer at the game.
 
If we get through it guarantees us at minimum a place in the Europa Lg group stages as opposed to having to clear the final qualifying round which is the case as it stands at the time of posting. Obviously a win in the final qualifying round would allow us the right to get royally pumped for six games in the CL Group stages.
 
If it happens (which it should) it seems a bit of off going through this way - but d'ems da roolz.
 
Someone at Legia needs their baws squarely toed for this one.
 

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That Legia let this happen, that UEFA allowed it to happen, the draconian punishment for it happening, and the assignment of a 3-0 scoreline* are all incredibly, mind-blowingly, outrageously fucking stupid.
 
* So if you win 4-0 at home in the first leg you can play all the ineligible guys you want in the away leg?  Seriously, this is a rule?
 

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Legia brought Bartosz Bereszynski on in the 86th minute...of a blow-out tie. Jeez, such a fine line between stupid and ahering to the regulations and conditions set forth in the...blah blah blah
 
God is Green.
 
Anyway, Raith Rovers have some tasty players and a good shot at promotion in a very tough league...so I just hope Celtic stay away from oor players. Goan see what Cowden have on offer, they'll do em good deal. There's a really good chippie not far from the ground, they have a few seats and you get two bits of fish with your poke, great place to talk business. Have Hibs got anyone Celtic can get? I know Celtic are scouring the Albanian and San Marino leagues for untapped talent. The Celts have money and are willing to spend.
 
The youth team get an apple and/or an orange at half time now and don't have to wash their own kits. They'll be watching training DVD's not videos now. I feel sorry for the guy who has the clutie dumpling stall at the Barras, he won't be getting his catering contract re-upped. Shame.
 

Biggreenone

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DLew On Roids said:
That Legia let this happen, that UEFA allowed it to happen, the draconian punishment for it happening, and the assignment of a 3-0 scoreline* are all incredibly, mind-blowingly, outrageously fucking stupid.
 
* So if you win 4-0 at home in the first leg you can play all the ineligible guys you want in the away leg?  Seriously, this is a rule?
It's daft alright however it's not without precedent.

Whoever looks after the admin at Legia monumentally cocked up here for sure.

Clubs competing in Euro competitions know full well in advance the procedures re registrations / suspensions etc - if they bungle them then they also know the penalty so the onus is on the clubs to get it right which obviously the vast majority of clubs repeatedly do.

It's a bit embarrassing for Celtic to progress in such a manner after being so roundly gubbed over two legs - however in professional sports getting the admin side correct is now just as important as getting the on field side in order.

Let's hope Deila and the players can take advantage of this huge break and get passed Maribor.
 

CodPiece XL

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It will be interesting to see how the appeal goes.
 
On one hand,  I certainly don't see malice, any attempt to gain advantage and on the face of it, the punishment is disproportionate to the culpability. Common sense would indicate that Legia gained absolutely nothing by playing a player for the last 4 minutes of a game where the outcome of the tie had become a foregone conclusion.
 
However, I think the beaks at UEFA look at this as being a player who was suspended and had no right to be on the field of play. You simply can't play a suspended player;  that was why he was ineligible no matter how badly you bungle paperwork. There are literally millions on the line and if Legia don't line up their ducks as far as correct submissions of paperwork to serve a suspension shame on them. 
 
I do feel badly for them, they played Celtic off the park in both legs, if the 3:0 result stands, it's truly a very hollow victory.
 
EDIT Jeez...BG, you posted that as I was typing this...same thoughts, said differently.
 

Biggreenone

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CodPiece XL said:
It will be interesting to see how the appeal goes.
 
On one hand,  I certainly don't see malice, any attempt to gain advantage and on the face of it, the punishment is disproportionate to the culpability. Common sense would indicate that Legia gained absolutely nothing by playing a player for the last 4 minutes of a game where the outcome of the tie had become a foregone conclusion.
 
However, I think the beaks at UEFA look at this as being a player who was suspended and had no right to be on the field of play. You simply can't play a suspended player;  that was why he was ineligible no matter how badly you bungle paperwork. There are literally millions on the line and if Legia don't line up their ducks as far as correct submissions of paperwork to serve a suspension shame on them. 
 
I do feel badly for them, they played Celtic off the park in both legs, if the 3:0 result stands, it's truly a very hollow victory.
 
EDIT Jeez...BG, you posted that as I was typing this...same thoughts, said differently.
It's fairly certain there will be no appeal as Legia have no grounds to appeal. They played a suspended player and the punishment is a 3-0 defeat - it's that cut and dried.

In the eyes of the rule book the fact he came on in the dying moments of a 2-0 win is totally irrelevant as the player had not served his 3 game suspension.
 

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It's no different to when Belle and Sebastian brought out the 'This is just a modern rock song' Ep, and were deemed inelligible for a singles chart placing because the total time of the EP was about 4 seconds over the 20 minutes max allowed length, even though the silent gaps between the songs was about 4 seconds and if they'd shaved that off they'd have been fine and had a hit record. It was a silly mistake and they had to learn from it...it's the same thing, to me anyway. 
 
LTF will back me up on this.
 

fletcherpost

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CodPiece XL said:
I'll have whateverthefuck Fletch is on...sounds like good stuff.
 
The mad kid had 4 lights, the average is 2.5 lights; The mediocre has 2 lights, the sign of genius is three lights; There's one light left, that's the one light; That's the science law.
 

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Biggreenone said:
It's daft alright however it's not without precedent.
 
That's true, but the point of any governing body is to implement controls.  Presumably, the goal of UEFA, in part, is to set controls that maximize the likelihood that the team that performs best on the pitch advances.  That UEFA doesn't send out a list of all suspended players to all clubs in advance of each match, or that the fourth official allows a suspended player in uniform on the bench, or into the match, is insane.  You might need one body, two max, at UEFA to track suspensions and inform club representatives and assigned fourth officials who is ineligible.  In other words, UEFA could avoid sporting and financial debacles like this--and advancing on a technicality that the governing body could have easily avoided after losing 6-1 makes a fucking travesty of the competition, no matter who you support--for a couple hundred thousand euros a year, but now Legia could easily be out (and Celtic into) 10 million euros when no sporting benefit was gained.  
 
This is 100% on UEFA in my book.  Legia broke the rules, but the rules are arcane, they gained no benefit, and UEFA could have easily prevented this with some process changes.  You can't change the rules now, so I understand why Celtic would be restored into the competition, but UEFA could do a lot worse than restoring some of the money and coefficient points Legia earned on the pitch.  And the way UEFA addresses ineligible players needs to be addressed immediately.  Not for 2015-16, but for the next round. 
 

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For those proclaiming the rules are the rules: Are you telling me with a straight face that if a giant (IE Barcelona or Real Madrid) did this in a tie vs Legia that they would be thrown out of the CL for the exact violation? He sat out 3 games. They have been thrown out of the CL for a clerical error. What a joke. 
 

Biggreenone

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DLew On Roids said:
 
That's true, but the point of any governing body is to implement controls.  Presumably, the goal of UEFA, in part, is to set controls that maximize the likelihood that the team that performs best on the pitch advances.  That UEFA doesn't send out a list of all suspended players to all clubs in advance of each match, or that the fourth official allows a suspended player in uniform on the bench, or into the match, is insane.  You might need one body, two max, at UEFA to track suspensions and inform club representatives and assigned fourth officials who is ineligible.  In other words, UEFA could avoid sporting and financial debacles like this--and advancing on a technicality that the governing body could have easily avoided after losing 6-1 makes a fucking travesty of the competition, no matter who you support--for a couple hundred thousand euros a year, but now Legia could easily be out (and Celtic into) 10 million euros when no sporting benefit was gained.  
 
This is 100% on UEFA in my book.  Legia broke the rules, but the rules are arcane, they gained no benefit, and UEFA could have easily prevented this with some process changes.  You can't change the rules now, so I understand why Celtic would be restored into the competition, but UEFA could do a lot worse than restoring some of the money and coefficient points Legia earned on the pitch.  And the way UEFA addresses ineligible players needs to be addressed immediately.  Not for 2015-16, but for the next round. 
I can see your point however the onus is on the competing clubs to comply with the tournament rules.

Bartosz Bereszynski was sent off in Legia's final game in the 2013 Europa League - he was awarded a 3 game suspension of which the club were formally notified. The club will have been notified exactly what must happen for the suspension to be fulfilled. Legia failed to comply with the suspension requirements as Bartosz Bereszynski was not registered in the squad for the St Patrick's Athletic tie and hence did not serve his suspension as required.

Like all teams competing in UEFA competitions Legia are fully aware of the rules & punishments - it is up to them to ensure they adhere to the rules or face the consequences if they don't.

Incredibly they missed TWO penalties in the home leg - if they scored one of them they would still be through even with playing the suspended Bereszynski so technically the outcome was decided on the pitch in this one - they were not expelled from the competition Celtic were handed a 3-0 2nd leg win which meant the tie was level at 4-4 but Celtic progress by applying the away goal rule.

What needs to be remembered Legia are a huge club within Poland and have been taking part in UEFA competitions for 50+ years - none of this is news to them. Legia completely cocked up in this one and UEFA had to apply the rules.

There are semi-pro clubs with volunteer admin staff competing in the early rounds of UEFA competition - they manage to comply with the admin required etc as the tournament rules are exactly the same for all clubs. As harsh as it seems there really is no excuse for Legia and their relatively huge resources to fail on the required admin.

Can anyone think of an MLB parallel ?
 

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The only thing that comes to mind in MLB would be a batter batting out of order. In which case the penalty is much less severe.
 
Has there ever been a similar parallel in one of the Champions or Europa League competitions?
 
What floors me about this situation is that the player served the suspension - he just wasn't placed on a list - if I understand everything correctly. Is this like if a manager is supposed to list a suspended player on his lineup card, but failed to do so, and therefore the player doesn't count as having served the suspension?
 
I think the part that is infuriating about this situation is that Bereszynski sat out the three games (paid the penalty), Legia badly outplayed Celtic over the two games, and that Bereszynski's impact on the game was entirely meaningless. And yet Celtic gets the advance due essentially to misfiled paperwork? It's akin to letting a guilty man go free because of an error in meaningless paperwork.
 
Full disclosure: Having been more excited by international football since following Liverpool recently and the World Cup, I thought it would be fun to support Legia as an homage to my Polish heritage. What a baptism by fire these events have been!
 

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5050HindSight said:
 
 
It's akin to letting a guilty man go free because of an error in meaningless paperwork.
 
You realize this happens right?
 

CodPiece XL

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UEFA: He's suspended for 3 games
Legia: OK he won't play for 3 games... sorted
UEFA: No, you have to register him in your squad to play
Legia: does this mean he can play?
UEFA: No, it means he could play if he wasn't suspended
Legia: But he is suspended
UEFA: Yes
Legia: So he won't play
UEFA: Correct
Legia: So, we won't pick him
UEFA: No, you have to pick him
Legia: BUT. HE'S. SUSPENDED
UEFA: but you have to select him and not play him
Legia: can we have a new translator in here?????????????????
 

DJnVa

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UEFA: He's suspended for 3 games
Legia: OK he won't play for 3 games... sorted
UEFA: No, you have to register him in your squad to play
Legia: does this mean he can play?
UEFA: No, it means he could play if he wasn't suspended
Legia: But he is suspended
UEFA: Yes
Legia: So he won't play
UEFA: Correct
Legia: So, we won't pick him
UEFA: No, you have to pick him
Legia: BUT. HE'S. SUSPENDED
UEFA: but you have to select him and not play him
Legia: can we have a new translator in here?????????????????
 
 
 
I know you're just doing a Who's on First thing here, but it's not really hard to understand is it? The team is penalized by having him take up a registration slot in those three games, right?
 

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DrewDawg said:
 
 
I know you're just doing a Who's on First thing here, but it's not really hard to understand is it? The team is penalized by having him take up a registration slot in those three games, right?
 
Yes, my point was evidently Legia didn't.
 

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Biggreenone said:
I can see your point however the onus is on the competing clubs to comply with the tournament rules.
No shit, but it shouldn't be. UEFA makes the rules. It would be short money to ensure that clubs comply with the rules by at least, ya know, not letting a suspended player on the pitch. An NBA scorers table or MLB home plate umpire would have the information at hand to not let a suspended player enter a game. Meanwhile, there's a fourth official wearing a UEFA badge who spends most of the match with his dick in his hand. It would be easy to make the fourth official responsible for consulting a checklist of cleared players before punching the numbers into the substitution board. It's as natural as the referee checking spike length or jewelry, and it would keep a deserving club in the competition.
 
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