Celtic off-court discussion

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,209
Interesting idea because the reality is that Schroder is almost certainly gone after the season. He is obviously a key part of their rotation so replacing his minutes would be tough given what they have on their roster (and presumably whomever he is traded for - if its an NBA body - isn't able to replicate his production).

More to the point, the Celtics should be able to find similar production elsewhere next off-season. Of all the down the road roster issues, this seems easiest to resolve. There is a reason the Cs lucked into Schroder at his current contract.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
6,410
Can someone explain what quirky NBA accounting convention precludes the Celtics from resigning Schroeder next year?

Is there some salary max the Celts are held to (ie a 20% increase) over the $5.8M DS is currently earning, that he would never accept versus a free-market 4/100 type deal?

Thanks in advance.

And unless there is a pass-first PG out there, and clear upgrade, I would not trade the guy mid-season. He may not be perfect but he's been a pretty effective spark plug on offense when it can't get started. This team has had chemistry issues for the past few years, and this team seems to be gelling. Don't fuck it up if you don't have to.
That's right. Because he's only here on a one-year deal the team won't have "Bird rights" on him, so they can't give him much of a raise. Your 20% guess was right - that's the biggest raise they can offer, unless they get way below the luxury tax line somehow. Then they could offer a non-taxpayer midlevel exception, but I don't think even that will be enough to retain him and the team will have a hard time shedding the salary to get to that level.

After two seasons, they could have offered a 75% raise, and after three it can go up to the max, for context.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
11,923
I don’t think you want to weaken the team if they are in playoff position, which they all most certainly should be. For a late first rounder, at best? Just doesn’t make sense IMO.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,115
Santa Monica
a few obvious caveats if we are going to discuss DS trades:

1. DS only gets moved if Boston is a purgatory team. December will tell PBS a lot. If they are contending then he won't get dealt since he's a very good player

2. Fake Trades have a .001% chance of happening, so they ALL are Fantasyland


I'd imagine PBS only moves DS if it's an asset that can stick past this season. Rookie contracts $ would ~ match up, so dredging that territory makes sense since the contender that would want DS doesn't have development minutes.

Coby White isn't going to love the situation in Chicago, w/ the Bulls signing the Lonz & Cookie Monster.
All his previous shots are now being taken by DeMar and Vuc. Green, Ayo, DJJ are defensive players that have fit into their rotation. Coby White won't get paid being the 9th/10th option, that matters to young players/agents.

Coby now has COVID, may be weakened, and he's looking at a lost season. Karnisovas moving White before he loses a lot of his value wouldn't shock me, he had no issue tossing aside Markkanen.

Add in Schroder had his best season and was in 6th MOY contention when he last played for Billy Donovan.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
Schroder could get moved as part of a larger deal, or as part of a series of deals. There is no chance he gets moved for a draft pick in the ass end of the first round unless the C's go into a terrible slump.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,478
Melrose, MA
Can someone explain what quirky NBA accounting convention precludes the Celtics from resigning Schroeder next year?

Is there some salary max the Celts are held to (ie a 20% increase) over the $5.8M DS is currently earning, that he would never accept versus a free-market 4/100 type deal?

Thanks in advance.

And unless there is a pass-first PG out there, and clear upgrade, I would not trade the guy mid-season. He may not be perfect but he's been a pretty effective spark plug on offense when it can't get started. This team has had chemistry issues for the past few years, and this team seems to be gelling. Don't fuck it up if you don't have to.
If a team does not have a player's Bird rights, they can only offer him 1) a 20% raise, 2) an exception (e.g., the MLE), or 3) whatever they have in cap room. The Celtics signed Schroder by offering him the taxpayer MLE. They don't and won't have cap room. So if they try to re-sign him they are limited to either 20% raise from his $5.8 M or the taxpayer MLE again, whichever is more. (I don;t think they con do the full MLE because I don't think they can get below the tax line, but maybe I am wrong about that. I suppose they could also do a 1+1 with a player option for another 20% raise.

Unless he's playing a vital role on the team at the deadline, I'd move him.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
If a team does not have a player's Bird rights, they can only offer him 1) a 20% raise, 2) an exception (e.g., the MLE), or 3) whatever they have in cap room. The Celtics signed Schroder by offering him the taxpayer MLE. They don't and won't have cap room. So if they try to re-sign him they are limited to either 20% raise from his $5.8 M or the taxpayer MLE again, whichever is more. (I don;t think they con do the full MLE because I don't think they can get below the tax line, but maybe I am wrong about that. I suppose they could also do a 1+1 with a player option for another 20% raise.

Unless he's playing a vital role on the team at the deadline, I'd move him.
His role now is valuable enough that he should be moved only for an upgrade, probably as part of a larger deal.
 

Burkharts Uppercut

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 18, 2003
138
It wouldn't be that hard to maneuver under the Luxury Tax. The C's are 6.3M over and Juancho has a 7M luxury tax figure. OKC is the only team that can absorb his salary outright, but there are a few teams likes ORL and NOP under the luxury tax number with trade exceptions large enough. If there are no major deals to be made to improve this season's team, getting under the luxury tax at least puts the C's into the conversation of being able to find a suitable replacement for DS with standard MLE instead of the Mini MLE (for this year's numbers 4/41 vs 3/18) and maybe even gets us in the conversation for DS, but still very unlikely. This last offseason Alex Caruso got close to the full MLE and Reggie Bullock got the full MLE but only for 3 years, so those are the caliber players you're looking at to replace DS.

Another minor thing they can do if they're anticipating buyouts is waive Jabrari's non-guaranteed contract. This gives them a little flexibility, because similar to Jabrari himself last year had only a $430K cap figure because it was pro-rated. It may allow the C's to pick up two players on minimums and waive someone like Fernando.
 
Last edited:

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
4,546
It wouldn't be that hard to maneuver under the Luxury Tax. The C's are 6.3M over and Juancho has a 7M luxury tax figure. OKC is the only team that can absorb his salary outright, but there are a few teams likes ORL and NOP under the luxury tax number with trade exceptions large enough. If there are no major deals to be made to improve this season's team, getting under the luxury tax at least puts the C's into the conversation of being able to find a suitable replacement for DS with standard MLE instead of the Mini MLE (for this year's numbers 4/41 vs 3/18) and maybe even gets us in the conversation for DS, but still very unlikely. This last offseason Alex Caruso got close to the full MLE and Reggie Bullock got the full MLE but only for 3 years, so those are the caliber players you're looking at to replace DS.

Another minor thing they can do if they're anticipating buyouts is waive Jabrari's non-guaranteed contract. This gives them a little flexibility, because similar to Jabrari himself last year had only a $430K cap figure because it was pro-rated. It may allow the C's to pick up two players on minimums and waive someone like Fernando.
You have to finish next season under the luxury tax apron, not this season, to use the full MLE next season. Using that MLE hard caps you in the season you use it.

For the rest of the recent posts in the thread, If the Celtics can trade Schroder for a player of similar current impact that either has more term left on his deal, or Bird rights if you want to re-sign him, then that's a fine move.

They absolutely shouldn't trade him for modest future returns in shaky picks/prospects because he's going to walk away next summer.

People need to get over the fear of players, especially one at the Schroder level, walking away. It's fine to let those guys walk away if you think they can help your current team at least have a fighting chance to compete. So many people seem stuck on there only being two levels of team, championship contenders and who cares.

It's fine to not trade everything that's not nailed down if you're in the middle group of teams that are very unlikely to win a title, but can at least be competitive against the teams that are title contenders.

Playoff basketball is fun. It's just fine, preferable in my opinion, to pass on late first/second round picks for your expiring rotation players that will get playoff minutes for you. Give your team a fighting chance.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
You have to finish next season under the luxury tax apron, not this season, to use the full MLE next season. Using that MLE hard caps you in the season you use it.

For the rest of the recent posts in the thread, If the Celtics can trade Schroder for a player of similar current impact that either has more term left on his deal, or Bird rights if you want to re-sign him, then that's a fine move.

They absolutely shouldn't trade him for modest future returns in shaky picks/prospects because he's going to walk away next summer.

People need to get over the fear of players, especially one at the Schroder level, walking away. It's fine to let those guys walk away if you think they can help your current team at least have a fighting chance to compete. So many people seem stuck on there only being two levels of team, championship contenders and who cares.

It's fine to not trade everything that's not nailed down if you're in the middle group of teams that are very unlikely to win a title, but can at least be competitive against the teams that are title contenders.

Playoff basketball is fun. It's just fine, preferable in my opinion, to pass on late first/second round picks for your expiring rotation players that will get playoff minutes for you. Give your team a fighting chance.
Yes, key point. And this is how the Celtics ownership thinks and will expect Stevens to operate on this very principle, whether we want them to or not.

There are no truly dominant teams in the East; some really good teams in the Nets and Bucks, but is otherwise wide open. Getting a 4/5 seed is not purgatory, and sometimes the better teams do get beat due to matchups or injury luck. The 5th seeded Heat made the Finals just 1.5 years ago, and for a team hoping to keep its star players happy, making the Finals has a huge benefit.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,406
around the way
You have to finish next season under the luxury tax apron, not this season, to use the full MLE next season. Using that MLE hard caps you in the season you use it.

For the rest of the recent posts in the thread, If the Celtics can trade Schroder for a player of similar current impact that either has more term left on his deal, or Bird rights if you want to re-sign him, then that's a fine move.

They absolutely shouldn't trade him for modest future returns in shaky picks/prospects because he's going to walk away next summer.

People need to get over the fear of players, especially one at the Schroder level, walking away. It's fine to let those guys walk away if you think they can help your current team at least have a fighting chance to compete. So many people seem stuck on there only being two levels of team, championship contenders and who cares.

It's fine to not trade everything that's not nailed down if you're in the middle group of teams that are very unlikely to win a title, but can at least be competitive against the teams that are title contenders.

Playoff basketball is fun. It's just fine, preferable in my opinion, to pass on late first/second round picks for your expiring rotation players that will get playoff minutes for you. Give your team a fighting chance.
Great post.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Should we sell high on Schroder? We can’t have him next year and he is balling right now. I love having him on the team but I would like to know what we can get for him. Or what type of package he could be an addition to.
I can’t imagine Brad going into tank mode by trading Schroder for a (likely) 1st round pick. That’s how you lose your team. The only way is if another deal is made to solidity the PG position long term which doesn’t appear likely unless Jaylen is involved.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
His role now is valuable enough that he should be moved only for an upgrade, probably as part of a larger deal.
Yes, he’s much more than an expiring contract that we with to get future value from. The value in Schroder has always been what he brings to this team THIS year in filling an enormous hole in the backcourt with his skillet. It is unlikely anything we receive for him straight up will outweigh what he brings to this current team. This year matters too…..it matters to all of your core group.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,115
Santa Monica
I can’t imagine Brad going into tank mode by trading Schroder for a (likely) 1st round pick. That’s how you lose your team. The only way is if another deal is made to solidity the PG position long term which doesn’t appear likely unless Jaylen is involved.
The Celtics won't trade DS, unless they are in purgatory. By definition, the team would have been lost already by then.
AND we'd all want PBS to improve the team in any way possible. After last summer, it's pretty clear Brad isn't afraid to make a deal.

Many thought hanging on to Kemba (esp. after his end of the '21 season scoring binge) for another year was a good idea until Brad punted him before the paint dried in his new office.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
The Celtics won't trade DS, unless they are in purgatory. By definition, the team would have been lost already by then.
AND we'd all want PBS to improve the team in any way possible. After last summer, it's pretty clear Brad isn't afraid to make a deal.

Many thought hanging on to Kemba (esp. after his end of the '21 season scoring binge) for another year was a good idea until Brad punted him before the paint dried in his new office.
I agree on the bolded. Having said that…..I’m expecting this team to really come together on this road trip. This is a great opportunity to them to come together as a group both on and off the court.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,115
Santa Monica
I agree on the bolded. Having said that…..I’m expecting this team to really come together on this road trip. This is a great opportunity to them to come together as a group both on and off the court.
Agreed, the team is playing better. The Utah game was the most encouraging loss in years, backed up by the Portland blowout.

12 games left in December, just need to survive. January is much easier.

With 3 TPE's ($17.2, $9.8 & $5MM) + all their draft picks + a handful of young players, Trader Brad will be active between now and this Summer consolidating.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
5,205
Lynn
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/jayson-tatum-gives-thoughtful-answer-jaylen-brown-relationship

"I think the next step for us is even feeding off each other more in a game," Tatum said. "But JB is -- from where he started in his first year and what they tried to label him as 'he couldn't shoot' or whatever -- he shot 40% from three (last season) and made his first All-Star Game. I couldn't have been happier for him.

"Me and him just kind of took the same approach of, I'm getting better and he's getting better. We're not just staying the same. So, we're two of the hungriest players in the league. We're still trying to get there."
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
It appears that the entire league is in the midst of an outbreak regardless of vaccination status. If they catch it in waves rather than everyone at once the league can maybe avoid a stoppage.
Yeah, it's going to cycle through in waves, with clusters occurring here and there. Not much to be done, but chances of complications are very low among the vaxxed players and coaches, which is the goal. Recall that Ed Rod lost a whole season to post-CoVid complications before there was a vaccine.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,406
around the way
Yeah, it's going to cycle through in waves, with clusters occurring here and there. Not much to be done, but chances of complications are very low among the vaxxed players and coaches, which is the goal. Recall that Ed Rod lost a whole season to post-CoVid complications before there was a vaccine.
Yeah, any talk of whether vaccines have an effect should involve a comparison in man games lost and games rescheduled. Frankly, just looking at the NFL shows how covid isn't bouncing around teams like last year. Same in the NBA. There were some NBA games last year with like 9 guys dressed and NFL games moved to bye weeks and Tuesdays/Wednesdays.

That said, yes, we will still have guys missing a couple of NBA games here and there until clean tests come through.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Yeah, any talk of whether vaccines have an effect should involve a comparison in man games lost and games rescheduled. Frankly, just looking at the NFL shows how covid isn't bouncing around teams like last year. Same in the NBA. There were some NBA games last year with like 9 guys dressed and NFL games moved to bye weeks and Tuesdays/Wednesdays.

That said, yes, we will still have guys missing a couple of NBA games here and there until clean tests come through.
The NBA is testing everyone, including players who are asymptomatic and vaccinated, right?

A lot of us who assume we haven’t had COVID would have tested positive if we were subject to the NBA protocols. Plus the odds of having a false positive at some point if you’re tested on a regular basis are pretty good, even though it’s a remote possibility in any single instance. There’s really no comparison to the situation last year.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
6,410
Not sure where this belongs, but Michelle Wu just announced a vaccine mandate for Boston. No unvaccinated players will be able to play home games starting January 15.

View: https://twitter.com/universalhub/status/1472947254025719817?s=21


Last I knew Schroder and Richardson were not vaccinated, so Brad's going to have to look to change their minds or trade them.


@universalhub
·
Dec 20, 2021
Wu: Boston to require vaccination proof for indoor dining, fitness venues, theaters, sports events. Will apply to both patrons 12 and up and employees.
Vaccination requirement will start with one-shot proof on Jan. 15, ramp up to full vaccination by Feb. 15."

View: https://twitter.com/briantrobb/status/1472951948370395137?s=21


Edit: never mind, false alarm. Brian Robb reporting that Celtics are exempt as pro athletes. Still, crowd will need to be vaccinated.
 
Last edited:

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,502
Not sure where this belongs, but Michelle Wu just announced a vaccine mandate for Boston. No unvaccinated players will be able to play home games starting January 15.

Last I knew Schroder and Richardson were not vaccinated, so Brad's going to have to look to change their minds or trade them.
·
Dec 20, 2021
Wu: Boston to require vaccination proof for indoor dining, fitness venues, theaters, sports events. Will apply to both patrons 12 and up and employees.
Vaccination requirement will start with one-shot proof on Jan. 15, ramp up to full vaccination by Feb. 15."



Edit: never mind, false alarm. Brian Robb reporting that Celtics are exempt as pro athletes. Still, crowd will need to be vaccinated.
Here's the policy: https://www.boston.gov/sites/default/files/file/2021/12/BPHC-Indoor-Vaccination-Order-12-20-21.pdf

It's unclear to me but assuming the Cs do not operate TD Garden and actually are based outside of BOS, yes BRobb is correct and the Cs nor the players would not be subject to the mandate.

2. The following individuals are exempted from this Order, and therefore may enter a
covered premises without displaying proof of vaccination, provided that such individuals
wear a face mask at all times:
a. Individuals entering for a quick and limited purpose (for example, using the
restroom, placing or picking up an order or service, making a delivery, or
performing necessary repairs);
b. A performing artist not regularly employed by the covered entity while they are in
a covered premises for purposes of performing;
c. A professional athlete/sports team who enters a covered premises as part of their
regular employment for purposes of competing; and
d. An individual accompanying a performing artist or professional athlete/sports
team into a covered premises as part of their regular employment so long as the
performing artist or professional athlete/sports team are performing or competing
in the covered premises.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,115
Santa Monica
Here's the policy: https://www.boston.gov/sites/default/files/file/2021/12/BPHC-Indoor-Vaccination-Order-12-20-21.pdf
2. The following individuals are exempted from this Order, and therefore may enter a
covered premises without displaying proof of vaccination, provided that such individuals
wear a face mask at all times:
a. Individuals entering for a quick and limited purpose (for example, using the
restroom, placing or picking up an order or service, making a delivery, or
performing necessary repairs);
b. A performing artist not regularly employed by the covered entity while they are in
a covered premises for purposes of performing;
c. A professional athlete/sports team who enters a covered premises as part of their
regular employment for purposes of competing; and
d. An individual accompanying a performing artist or professional athlete/sports
team into a covered premises as part of their regular employment so long as the
performing artist or professional athlete/sports team are performing or competing
in the covered premises.
if they are not vaccinated will they need to "wear a face mask at all times" on the court?
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,115
Santa Monica
Feels like Jay King was perusing the Cellar yesterday

A trade Dennis Schroder Pro/Con article in the very worthwhile
Athletic

https://theathletic.com/3030102/2021/12/22/should-the-celtics-trade-dennis-schroder-or-should-they-keep-him-if-they-can/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983


Pro: He can play. The Celtics don’t have another guard to break through a defense as Schröder does. He ranks first on the team in drives per game, second on the team in assists per game and third on the team in points per game. If the Celtics were healthier, he would probably be among the leaders for the NBA Sixth Man of the Year Award with averages of 16.8 points and 4.7 assists per game. Instead, because of absences around him, he has needed to start 18 of his 28 games played. Ime Udoka has trusted Schröder with big minutes from Day 1.

Con: Sure, but the Celtics probably won’t be able to keep Schröder beyond this season. Because he signed a one-year contract this past offseason, they do not own his Bird rights. As such, they would be limited to offering him 120 percent of his current contract in the first year of a new deal. Schröder, playing on a bargain contract this year after failing to land a big offer, will likely be looking for significantly more than a deal beginning at around $7 million. If he continues to produce the way he has, he could make a lot more — just not from the Celtics.

Plus, there’s growing evidence Schröder fits imperfectly next to the team’s best players. Over 172 minutes he has shared the court with Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown, the Celtics have scored 99.7 points per 100 possessions, which would rank last in the league among teams over the full regular season. Among the Celtics’ top 25 most used trios, that group has the third-worst offensive rating. The defense has been extremely stingy during those minutes, but the lack of scoring has been a major issue, especially in key moments. After one late-game collapse against the Spurs, Udoka said those guys and Marcus Smart “need to learn to play together” and “not just get baskets for themselves.” When Schröder and Smart are in the Celtics’ backcourt to close games, the team typically has three iffy shooters around Tatum and Brown. That’s not ideal for spacing.

Schröder has somehow shot 34.0 percent with Brown on the floor next to him, compared to 46.7 percent without Brown. That’s just weird. And it’s not exactly promising about their ability to mesh. It’s not like Schröder has been able to prop up bench lineups, either. The Celtics have been outscored by 4.2 points per 100 possessions (a worse net rating than the Kings) during his playing time without Tatum.

Pro: Even so, those results have come over a small sample size. The Celtics’ ceiling, which could still be significant, probably won’t be reached unless the four perimeter veterans can learn how to thrive together. It’s difficult to envision a Schröder trade that would make the Celtics more competitive this season. Because he’s on an expiring contract, the suitors for him will likely be contenders looking for a piece to push them over the top. Boston could get valuable draft capital for Schröder, but shouldn’t expect to land any players in return who are ready to contribute to winning immediately.

The Celtics have shown no signs they could make a run this season. They rank 21st in offense, 12th in defense and 13th in net rating. Even the Pacers, who entered Tuesday at 13-18, have a better point differential than Boston. The Celtics need to be honest with themselves about where they stand. Stevens could want to see how his team performs when fully healthy, a treat that has been all too rare so far. But if he doesn’t think the Celtics can salvage this season, it would only be natural to see what they can fetch for Schröder, whose trade market should be substantial.

Pritchard’s play over the last couple of games has added another layer to the discussion. With more opportunities, he has tapped back into the confidence and fearlessness he showed as a rookie. Nobody knows what his career will bring, but based on how he played last season and how he has performed recently, the Celtics should be interested in seeing more of what he can do. They need shooting. Pritchard can provide that. And unlike Schröder, Pritchard will likely be around long term. But as long as Schröder is on the roster, Pritchard’s path to playing time will be blocked.

Would the Celtics even be much worse over the rest of the season if they split up Schröder’s minutes between Pritchard, Josh Richardson, Aaron Nesmith and Romeo Langford? Even if that would rob the Celtics of a few wins over the rest of the regular season, wouldn’t they be wise to give more minutes to their younger prospects in a season that will likely end pretty early?

Pro: It might not be smart to write off the Celtics’ chances too early. Brown has missed almost half the season. Tatum struggled for the first month or so. The team needed to adjust to a new coach, a new system and a rearranged supporting cast. Stevens still has a month and a half left to evaluate this team before deciding what avenue to take. By then, maybe, the Celtics will make the decision easy for him one way or another.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,298
While the on-court play has led to a lot of teeth-gnashing, they are still roughly where they were before the season after Brad's flurry of moves. Two great young players surrounded by some decent pieces on movable contracts. Things could look very different in a hurry. Brad's not a dummy and even if the results are only there half the time I think he'd still make all the same moves given the chance, for the sake of flexibility.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
While the on-court play has led to a lot of teeth-gnashing, they are still roughly where they were before the season after Brad's flurry of moves. Two great young players surrounded by some decent pieces on movable contracts. Things could look very different in a hurry. Brad's not a dummy and even if the results are only there half the time I think he'd still make all the same moves given the chance, for the sake of flexibility.
If it's more of the same next year, I'll start to think Brad is a dummy and part of the problem.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,115
Santa Monica
If it's more of the same next year, I'll start to think Brad is a dummy and part of the problem.
3 months into the season and I still think Brad had a very good offseason, especially reworking the future cap obligations

1. getting out of Kemba
2. adding Horford
3. not giving up on Grant (like some were desperate to do around here)
4. extending Smart
5. getting JRich for free and extending
6. IME is a new needed voice
7. Freedom on a minimum
8. Schroder on a cheap deal
9. drafting Begarin
10. unloading TT
11. not overpaying for Fournier
12. both 2-ways have been good at Maine
13. adding/extending TPE's

The only things that may be questionable (50/50 in hindsight) are extending TL at that price, picking Jabari over Mathews for #15, and not adding Delon Wright for TT. BUT those are nitpicky

The Celtics consistently (Tatum/Horford esp) poor 3pt shooting has been costly. They miss way too many wide-open 3s
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
Brad's moves so far have had a lateral result record wise. But if the Celtics had last season's roster this year, they would probably be around 12th or 13th in the EC right now.
 

bigq

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
11,087
It is difficult to draw forward looking conclusions from the past couple of seasons or even this year given the impact of Covid. I agree with everything @benhogan says above. The continued .500 play has been frustrating and perhaps Tatum and Brown are the problem but I'm not convinced of that. If I were PBS I would looking for ways to add another impact player rather than blow it up.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,298
If it's more of the same next year, I'll start to think Brad is a dummy and part of the problem.
I mean, sure, but he started with a bad hand and at the very least has opened the door to draw some aces over the next year. Have we even reached the point where new contracts signed in the offseason are eligible to be traded? He hasn't had a chance to make a real impact in the draft either (partly by choice, of course, but I still fully support the Kemba move).

If this deadline and next summer pass without this flexibility turning into significant upgrades then yes, totally fair to question the direction at that point as we will have fully entered useless wheel-spinning territory.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
3 months into the season and I still think Brad had a very good offseason, especially reworking the future cap obligations

1. getting out of Kemba
2. adding Horford
3. not giving up on Grant (like some were desperate to do around here)
4. extending Smart
5. getting JRich for free and extending
6. IME is a new needed voice
7. Freedom on a minimum
8. Schroder on a cheap deal
9. drafting Begarin
10. unloading TT
11. not overpaying for Fournier
12. both 2-ways have been good at Maine
13. adding/extending TPE's

The only things that may be questionable (50/50 in hindsight) are extending TL at that price, picking Jabari over Mathews for #15, and not adding Delon Wright for TT. BUT those are nitpicky

The Celtics consistently (Tatum/Horford esp) poor 3pt shooting has been costly. They miss way too many wide-open 3s
They miss way too many wide open 3s because they don't have shooters.

Where did the very good offseason get us? Same .500 record, still painful to watch. If it sets the team up to make some moves this offseason that improves them, great. If they just switch the deck chairs around again or stand pat and the team is 41-41 next year with no real hopes of improvement from 23/24... heh.

I'm hopeful it's not going to be the same thing next year, or at the very least 23/24. The team has to change a lot by default the next 2 seasons. Brad is probably here for that long regardless of performance. Year 2 and Year 3 are the big ones.
 

teddykgb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
11,017
Chelmsford, MA
The shooting is it. Tatum becoming just a little more wayward was the last thing they needed but what may doom the Tatum/Brown/Smart core is that it fundamentally means the remaining 2 need to be really high percentage shooters at meaningful volume or they are just too prone to slumps in game they can’t recover from. When Brown isn’t injured and is making from all over the court they look a different team but I don’t know that he’s ever going to be a high volume high percentage scorer from 3 and that’s the game now. Schroder is a good player but not a good enough shooter to pair with the others. They’re basically trying to do it the hard way every night.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
When Brown isn’t injured and is making from all over the court they look a different team but I don’t know that he’s ever going to be a high volume high percentage scorer from 3 and that’s the game now.
What? He averaged 7.1 3PA/G last year and is at 7.1 again this year. If he qualified, he'd be tied for 48th in the league in 3PA/36 at 7.8. Tatum is at 8.3.

What do you consider high volume? Or is it the .380 he has shot the last 2+ seasons?

I have problems with Brown but his 3 point shooting/volume aren't them.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
If it's more of the same next year, I'll start to think Brad is a dummy and part of the problem.
While things haven’t worked out in this weird season I can’t imagine him doing more with less over a short summer while just getting his feet wet. His hands were tied in many regards but did bring in some good talent on the quick with Schroder, Horford and J-Rich without giving up much in return. Let’s not forget Begarin either.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,502
Feels like Jay King was perusing the Cellar yesterday

* * * *
Pro: It might not be smart to write off the Celtics’ chances too early. Brown has missed almost half the season. Tatum struggled for the first month or so. The team needed to adjust to a new coach, a new system and a rearranged supporting cast. Stevens still has a month and a half left to evaluate this team before deciding what avenue to take. By then, maybe, the Celtics will make the decision easy for him one way or another.
This league is driven by stars and at the end of the day, the Cs stars haven't been good enough.

But the most likely path for the Cs to become championship contenders is that JT and JB play better - more consistently. And it doesn't even have to be that they have to shoot better or score more points. If they could more consistently take better shots; more consistently take care of the ball; play more consistent defense - including not overhelping.

I know this sounds like a cliche but the Cs did not play winning basketball down the stretch against PHI. (I read somewhere that they are 4-9 in "clutch games" - within 5 points with 5 minutes or less down the stretch, so this is nothing new). For example, up 97-90, they give up an offensive rebound that leads to a Thybulle 3P. OK, they were scrambling. But then being up 98-96, the play below happens:

47547

So defense looks okay. But keep the video going (posted below), and you'll see Smart get caught in no man's land - not doubling Embiid but too far to get back to Curry. Embiid throws the ball to Curry and JB has to go contest. For some reason, JT and RL keep sinking towards Embiid so when Curry gets the ball, both Green and Harris are wide open. Curry goes to Green; JT's contest is way late, and the Cs are down.

Right before the shot, here's what the Cs defense looks like:

47550

I hope Ime goes over this play in film session. That's not winning basketball. Contrast it to the defense they played against PHI on the last shot when the Cs won. Granted no TL and no Horford but MS, JB, and JT have to be better in these situations.


View: https://youtu.be/ctTYC4_OdVc?t=522
 

Attachments

Last edited:

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,100
They miss way too many wide open 3s because they don't have shooters.

Where did the very good offseason get us? Same .500 record, still painful to watch. If it sets the team up to make some moves this offseason that improves them, great. If they just switch the deck chairs around again or stand pat and the team is 41-41 next year with no real hopes of improvement from 23/24... heh.

I'm hopeful it's not going to be the same thing next year, or at the very least 23/24. The team has to change a lot by default the next 2 seasons. Brad is probably here for that long regardless of performance. Year 2 and Year 3 are the big ones.
There will be trades to be had either at the deadline, the offseason, or both. So, if the results don't change, it will be on Brad. And would definitely have downstream effects on Tatum's and Brown's willingness to stay here longer term.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,115
Santa Monica
Where did the very good offseason get us? Same .500 record, still painful to watch. If it sets the team up to make some moves this offseason that improves them, great. If they just switch the deck chairs around again or stand pat and the team is 41-41 next year with no real hopes of improvement from 23/24... heh.

I'm hopeful it's not going to be the same thing next year, or at the very least 23/24. The team has to change a lot by default the next 2 seasons. Brad is probably here for that long regardless of performance. Year 2 and Year 3 are the big ones.
Ainge's last couple of seasons were rough, not all his doing, but the AD face plant + Hayward injury + Ky-hex situation + Kemba blunder has wrought our .500 team

Brad has more tradeable assets now, so the record isn't better, but the roster is more fungible.

The next step for Brad is to be realistic about this roster contending in '22, be aggressive and make deals with contenders/tankers now and this summer. One of the things we have banged on about is asset mgmt, can't let youngsters (Romeo/Nesmith/PP/Grant) rot on the bench, must shine those guys up. As long as the JAYs have bought in I would not be concerned with losing the team, since many will be moved over the next 14mths

If the theory is to build around the JAYs peak seasons, it's going to have to be cold/calculated dealing. Back to Celtics circa 2015, so far I like Brad's work, TIB...
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,243
I know this sounds like a cliche but the Cs did not play winning basketball down the stretch against PHI. (I read somewhere that they are 4-9 in "clutch games" - within 5 points with 5 minutes or less down the stretch, so this is nothing new). For example, up 97-90, they give up an offensive rebound that leads to a Thybulle 3P. OK, they were scrambling. But then being up 98-96, the play below happens:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/12/21/sports/one-again-celtics-were-finished-by-poor-play-closing-minutes/
The Celtics were up 7 points. They needed just a couple of more positive plays to close out the Philadelphia 76ers. Instead, they panicked with their prosperity. Philadelphia All-Star Joel Embiid took over, but the Celtics handed the 76ers the game, relenting down the stretch.

Turnovers, missed free throws, defensive mistakes and a bizarre technical foul led to the Celtics’ demise. Once again, they proved good enough to beat a quality team for 44 minutes and then melt down.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,115
Santa Monica
Otto Porter getting tossed around

https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/3/25/22989088/masslive-brian-robb-boston-celtics-could-target-otto-porter-in-offseason-with-mle-deal

Never too early to look at the roster for next season

Brad has locked up most of the key players:
1. Jayson Tatum - on MAX deal
2. Jaylen Brown - 2yrs
3. Rob Williams - 4yr ext signed last summer
4. Marcus Smart - 4yr ext signed last summer
5. Al Horford - Jan'23 decision
6. Derrick White - 4yr ext signed last summer
7. Grant Williams - rookie deal but ext eligible - 4yr/$36-40MM may work
8. Daniel Theis - 2yrs left
9. Peyton Pritchard rookie deal
10. Aaron Nesmith rookie deal
11. Hauser?
12.?
13.?
14.?
15.?
2-way A: 2nd round pick
2-way B:?

I'm reading that Madar/Begarin need another year in Europe

Otto Porter may be interesting

Bench vets I'd kick the tires on: Kyle Andersen, Delon Wright, Gary Peyton 2, Mike Muscala

Any other vets we should kick around?


https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics//cap
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,463
Otto Porter getting tossed around

https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/3/25/22989088/masslive-brian-robb-boston-celtics-could-target-otto-porter-in-offseason-with-mle-deal

Never too early to look at the roster for next season

Brad has locked up most of the key players:
1. Jayson Tatum - on MAX deal
2. Jaylen Brown - 2yrs
3. Rob Williams - 4yr ext signed last summer
4. Marcus Smart - 4yr ext signed last summer
5. Al Horford - Jan'23 decision
6. Derrick White - 4yr ext signed last summer
7. Grant Williams - rookie deal but ext eligible - 4yr/$36-40MM may work
8. Daniel Theis - 2yrs left
9. Peyton Pritchard rookie deal
10. Aaron Nesmith rookie deal
11. Hauser?
12.?
13.?
14.?
15.?
2-way A: 2nd round pick
2-way B:?

I'm reading that Madar/Begarin need another year in Europe

Otto Porter may be interesting

Bench vets I'd kick the tires on: Kyle Andersen, Delon Wright, Gary Peyton 2, Mike Muscala

Any other vets we should kick around?


https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics//cap
Jalen Smith, Suns turned down his 5th year option so IND can only offer 4.7M. His semi-breakout probably means he gets better than tax MLE offers, but I'd expect us to kick the tires.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
also take a look at Thomas Bryant.

He's a BIG that can efficiently launch from 3

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/
Wondering what TJ Warren gets at this point.

Lots of interesting names on that list, though I'm guessing many are outside of the C"s price range. I'd love Jalen Smith. Bryant hasn't impressed me much since coming back from injury but it's early.

I like Hamidou too. I can't see him breaking the bank. Bobby Portis would be great but he's going to get paid.