Celtic off-court discussion

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

LeBron is just an independent contractor at this point of his career. But as we all know, banners fly a lot longer. If this team has a chance to upgrade talent to remain competitive, including bringing in mercaneries, they have to do it. This is the window. And though they cant add bodies at present, it includes this season.

Even if they win another championship this season, they need to do whatever it takes to maximize the number of chances this core has at winning titles going forward. Its not unreasonable to consider scenarios where this squad is a perennial contender over the next few years.

 

[DGreenwood]

Al is the only one of the best 10 players on this team that isn't under team control for two more years after this one. And none of those 10 except Al should be showing age related decline during that period. So there's a real chance to build something that lasts several years.

 

[Kliq]

If Tatum is going to pout because he has to defer to Lebron at times, then I think we all should question his confidence.

Lebron may not be known as a fun teammate, but who the hell cares. He has consistently gotten mediocre players to play way above themselves. He has the utmost respect of young players like Tatum and Brown and my guess is they would jump at the chance to play with him.

Who are the star players who have played better when they were with LeBron? The teams were better because LeBron is great, but LeBron generally has a habit of reducing star players into more role-player positions.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Who are the star players who have played better when they were with LeBron? The teams were better because LeBron is great, but LeBron generally has a habit of reducing star players into more role-player positions.

Well, it hasn't been the 38 year old version of LeBron before. He may actually embrace a different role as he waits for Bronny.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Well, it hasn't been the 38 year old version of LeBron before. He may actually embrace a different role as he waits for Bronny.

Dudes been a moping, pouting, asshole this year. Nothing about his past has shown a willingness to try to fit into a system or embrace a different role.

Tatum is a beast with the ball in his hands. His strength is now making the right decision. LeBron isn't going to play off ball. He's going to take the ball out of Tatums ha dd for large stretches. Would the team be better? Probably. Does Tatum immediately drop in usage and out of top dog territory? Yep.

 

[Cellar-Door]

LeBron would be very difficult to get, and brings his own baggage, and also would have no interest.

On the other hand he's an incredible player and without having to carry his team on his back his defense probably bounces back.

I have zero concern about Tatum/Brown.... it's LeBron James... guys aren't getting upset about losing shots to probably the greatest player of all time, and certainly the greatest player of their basketball watching lives.

 

[benhogan]

I have zero problem with idle Bron chatter/speculation. In fact this is the place to discuss it

BUT anyone involved in this banter better not demand multiple sources for the next fake trade proposal around here.

 

[the moops]

Nothing about his past has shown a willingness to try to fit into a system or embrace a different role.

Well, he has been one of the best basketball players on the planet every year since his 2nd year in the league. Makes sense to craft teams around him, not the other way around.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

We wouldn’t have the haul or want to give up what it would take to trade for LeBron. The Lakers aren’t going to give him away for a low-1st and a role player.

 

[bankshot1]

We wouldn’t have the haul or want to give up what it would take to trade for LeBron. The Lakers aren’t going to give him away for a low-1st and a role player.

Wouldn't the trade machine demand at a minimum about $45MM in contracts going back the Lakers?

Which if my abacus is working would mean an Al and Marcus/D.White centered deal plus picks for the right to LeBron and eventually LeBronny.

 

[moondog80]

We wouldn’t have the haul or want to give up what it would take to trade for LeBron. The Lakers aren’t going to give him away for a low-1st and a role player.

I don't think LeBron is coming to Boston. But if/when he does want to leave LA, he is going to say "I want to go to (team x), trade me there", and the Lakers won't have much leverage. Maybe they can demand a second low-1st round pick.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I don't think LeBron is coming to Boston. But if/when he does want to leave LA, he is going to say "I want to go to (team x), trade me there", and the Lakers won't have much leverage. Maybe they can demand a second low-1st round pick.

Unless a team has a lot of dead money, it's going to be a package regardless.

 

[benhogan]

We wouldn’t have the haul or want to give up what it would take to trade for LeBron. The Lakers aren’t going to give him away for a low-1st and a role player.

Agreed. ALSO the Buss family/Laker fans care about Banners. I imagine the Celtics would be the last place they would trade him to. Maybe the Clippers, for Los Angeles attention? but the Celtics direct line was torn out of the walls years ago

Bron to Boston is probably the most bizarre trade suggestion made around here in years, esp. with absolutely no smoke signals by Klutch or medidiots suggesting it.

 

[JHS]

I imagine the Clippers are the one team less likely then the Celtics! They would hate for LA to be a Clippers town, even if only for a year or two.

 

[lexrageorge]

I imagine the Clippers are the one team less likely then the Celtics! They would hate for LA to be a Clippers town, even if only for a year or two.

Klutch could make it happen if LeBron had an aching desire to team up w/ Kawhi. But doubt the Clippers have enough to trade to make it worthwhile.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I imagine the Clippers are the one team less likely then the Celtics! They would hate for LA to be a Clippers town, even if only for a year or two.

Yeah there has to be zero chance of LeBron being traded down the hall to the Clippers locker room.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Its hard to see an NBA franchise dictating any terms to LeBron and Klutch. They not only have the King but a lot of good young stars on their client roster as well. Furthermore, their influence is only likely to expand in the future. YRMV but I assume LeBron can name his destination and be reasonably confident that it will get done.

Also, nobody presented this as a fake trade or a rumor. Just a possibility. Its a bit different than our typical making up ways to trade more talented players for draft binkies who happen to have a rando good night. You can almost see those posts coming when watching non Cs games or reading box scores.

 

[lexrageorge]

Its hard to see an NBA franchise dictating any terms to LeBron and Klutch. They not only have the King but a lot of good young stars on their client roster as well. Furthermore, their influence is only likely to expand in the future. YRMV but I assume LeBron can name his destination and be reasonably confident that it will get done.

Also, nobody presented this as a fake trade or a rumor. Just a possibility. Its a bit different than our typical making up ways to trade more talented players for draft binkies who happen to have a rando good night. You can almost see those posts coming when watching non Cs games or reading box scores.

The leverage Klutch has this coming offseason is somewhat restricted by the fact that LeBron is under contract, so they could not force the Lakers to trade LeBron to a hypothetical team with zero assets aside from a couple of 2nd rounders. There would need to be something coming back to make it worthwhile for the Lakers.

But, if a team does have assets to trade and the willingness to do so, Klutch isn't going to allow artificial constraints such as Lakers vs. Clippers relations get in the way. This isn't Ainge/Pritchard unable to agree on a trade for relatively fungible (as compared to Mr. James) assets.

Agree 100% that this is all a fun, academic, and essentially moot exercise in message boarding. Unless AD's health is causing him to enter a decline (a possibility), the most likely answer is that the Lakers attempt to retool around their 2 stars. The 2nd most likely outcome is that James gets traded to a team of LeBron's choosing that has abundant assets to deal. Neither outcome favors Boston in any way, and probably not the Clippers either, although I think LeBron would have no issue playing across town. LA is LA.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Aren't the Lakers working themselves into a frozen envelope situation?

 

[nighthob]

The leverage Klutch has this coming offseason is somewhat restricted by the fact that LeBron is under contract, so they could not force the Lakers to trade LeBron to a hypothetical team with zero assets aside from a couple of 2nd rounders. There would need to be something coming back to make it worthwhile for the Lakers.

The Lakers are 100% beholden to LeBron, even if he's gone. Because their post-LeBron plans are built around another LeBron client. And pissing off your star player's agent is the quickest way to end up in the lottery. Which makes it inevitable that the Buss family goes just that route and the Davis trade go down as the greatest in NBA history. For the Pelicans.

 

[Euclis20]

The Lakers are 100% beholden to LeBron, even if he's gone. Because their post-LeBron plans are built around another LeBron client. And pissing off your star player's agent is the quickest way to end up in the lottery. Which makes it inevitable that the Buss family goes just that route and the Davis trade go down as the greatest in NBA history. For the Pelicans.

Fingers crossed. It wasn't that long ago that the Lakers had back to back to back 2nd overall picks. It can happen again, but with someone else getting the players.

 

[Saints Rest]

Yea the Cavs and even Philly would be in play if he demands a trade... BUT expect the Lakers to get AD healthy, move RWB and then go searching for defense-first role players instead of the aged offense only ex-stars
The Celtics will be better next season, Bron + Cavs or anyone else shouldn't make the Celtics flinch one bit.

What you describe about the Lakers is exactly what the Celtics have done and should continue to do: get rid of the square peg (Schroder) and then surround your two stars with defense-first role players (like Marcus, TL, Al, and White) NOT aged offense only ex-stars.

Al is the only one of the best 10 players on this team that isn't under team control for two more years after this one. And none of those 10 except Al should be showing age related decline during that period. So there's a real chance to build something that lasts several years.

In my mind, the one spot in the top 6 that needs upgrading is Al. Mainly, because as great as he has been this year, I don't think you can expect that level of play for more than another year at best. Or, put another way, they need to upgrade his replacement (i.e. better than Theis). If Theis can remain as the 8th or 9th player in the rotation, I think he's fine. Ditto for Pritchard.

 

[ManicCompression]

Aren't the Lakers working themselves into a frozen envelope situation?

That's the amazing thing about the end of this season for them. They traded their 2022 first rounder to NOLA, who then traded it (protected) to Memphis in the JV/Adams deal. So if it's 1-10, NOLA gets the pick, and 11-30 goes to Memphis. The Lakers don't benefit from being bad at all.

 

[chilidawg]

In my mind, the one spot in the top 6 that needs upgrading is Al. Mainly, because as great as he has been this year, I don't think you can expect that level of play for more than another year at best. Or, put another way, they need to upgrade his replacement (i.e. better than Theis). If Theis can remain as the 8th or 9th player in the rotation, I think he's fine. Ditto for Pritchard.

SOSH just can't stop digging Al an early grave. So cold.

 

[benhogan]

What you describe about the Lakers is exactly what the Celtics have done and should continue to do: get rid of the square peg (Schroder) and then surround your two stars with defense-first role players (like Marcus, TL, Al, and White) NOT aged offense only ex-stars.

by and large the league overpays for PPG and really doesn't give a F--k about Defense

PBS Executive of the Year (hiring IME being his one of his best moves)

 

[HomeRunBaker]

by and large the league overpays for PPG and really doesn't give a F--k about Defense

I feel this is bc with exception to the top 5% (or so) of defenders and the bottom 10-15% (or so) there isn’t much difference in the defensive ability of the other 80-85% of NBA rotation players. The primary difference between these 85% are the scheme, their teammates and whether they are a competitive team. Some of the talk surrounding LeBron this year is a perfect example of how someone in the 85% (amd formerly in the top 5%) can look when playing in a bad situation with bad teammates.

Whereas offensive skill is more unique and a more valued commodity since fewer can consistently score at the NBA level.

 

[SteveF]

We're about to get some idea of which Celtics aren't vaccinated. Horford missed today for personal reasons, and Scal mentioned he was likely out again tomorrow.

I only bring this up as relevant because there's a chance the Celtics have to play Toronto in the first round.

Edit: (Prior to Jan. 15 2022 there was an exemption. The Celtics (and Derrick White) have not played in Toronto since then.)

 

[Buster Olney the Lonely]

We're about to get some idea of which Celtics aren't vaccinated. Horford missed today for personal reasons, and Scal mentioned he was likely out again tomorrow.

I only bring this up as relevant because there's a chance the Celtics have to play Toronto in the first round.

Al did play in Toronto back in November. I assume the same restrictions were in place in Canada at that time.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202111280TOR.html

 

[SteveF]

Al did play in Toronto back in November. I assume the same restrictions were in place in Canada at that time.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202111280TOR.html

You beat my edit. Sorry about that.

FWIW, Weiss tweeted Ime Udoka implied that all the Celtics players were eligible to play in Toronto. I'll check the press conference and see what Ime actually said.

"If healthy, all our guys are available to play." That does seem to imply the whole roster would be available in a playoff series.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

That's the amazing thing about the end of this season for them. They traded their 2022 first rounder to NOLA, who then traded it (protected) to Memphis in the JV/Adams deal. So if it's 1-10, NOLA gets the pick, and 11-30 goes to Memphis. The Lakers don't benefit from being bad at all.

Good to know.

 

[benhogan]

I feel this is bc with exception to the top 5% (or so) of defenders and the bottom 10-15% (or so) there isn’t much difference in the defensive ability of the other 80-85% of NBA rotation players. The primary difference between these 85% are the scheme, their teammates and whether they are a competitive team. Some of the talk surrounding LeBron this year is a perfect example of how someone in the 85% (amd formerly in the top 5%) can look when playing in a bad situation with bad teammates.

Whereas offensive skill is more unique and a more valued commodity since fewer can consistently score at the NBA level.

How do you explain Dennis Schroder getting offered more money then Derrick White last year (White was just smarter to accept his offer, DS's agent just believed the hype of PPG).

Clearly DW is the superior player, if you care about winning. DS will get you a bucket and give up more on the other side. Not shocking that the boobs running the Lakers were comfortable offering a large deal to DS.

I mean you always talk about players getting selfish/points focused during their contract year (see Rozier's last season in Boston). That alone tells you all you need to know about teams overpaying for POINTz

 

[lovegtm]

How do you explain Dennis Schroder getting offered more money then Derrick White last year (White was just smarter to accept his offer, DS's agent just believed the hype of PPG).

Clearly DW is the superior player, if you care about winning. DS will get you a bucket and give up more on the other side.

I mean you always talk about players getting selfish/points focused during their contract year (see Rozier's last season in Boston).

White was an RFA, which makes it somewhat less apples to apples.

 

[benhogan]

White was an RFA, which makes it somewhat less apples to apples.

thats fair, it's not a perfect comp...it's just something recent and relative, that we all have witnessed up close.

They were placed into similar roles and even when DW isn't scoring/shooting well he's adding value, because of his +++defense.

 

[Cellar-Door]

How do you explain Dennis Schroder getting offered more money then Derrick White last year (White was just smarter to accept his offer, DS's agent just believed the hype of PPG).

Clearly DW is the superior player, if you care about winning. DS will get you a bucket and give up more on the other side. Not shocking that the boobs running the Lakers were comfortable offering a large deal to DS.

I mean you always talk about players getting selfish/points focused during their contract year (see Rozier's last season in Boston). That alone tells you all you need to know about teams overpaying for POINTz

Well one thing is that Schroder says he never actually got an offer, but another is that the Lakers were in a weird spot where they had no ways to add talent since they had no cap space for FA, couldn't sign and trade, etc. Also White was an RFA. Schroder settling for a tax MLE tells you that the Lakers' rumored offer (that they apparently never formally made) was not indicative of the market at all.

 

[benhogan]

Well one thing is that Schroder says he never actually got an offer, but another is that the Lakers were in a weird spot where they had no ways to add talent since they had no cap space for FA, couldn't sign and trade, etc. Also White was an RFA. Schroder settling for a tax MLE tells you that the Lakers' rumored offer (that they apparently never formally made) was not indicative of the market at all.

I thought it was pretty well understood that there was a substantial offer made? DS went as far to make a elf effacing joke about "dropping the bag" on a Social media post? But I'm just going off reports from NBA insiders

as far as the Lakers valuing defense vs offense just look how they felt about Caruso?...or how they built this mess in the off-season around 2 of the best players in the NBA.

of course Brad has taken a different tact and traded out offense for defense at just about every turn

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Well one thing is that Schroder says he never actually got an offer, but another is that the Lakers were in a weird spot where they had no ways to add talent since they had no cap space for FA, couldn't sign and trade, etc. Also White was an RFA. Schroder settling for a tax MLE tells you that the Lakers' rumored offer (that they apparently never formally made) was not indicative of the market at all.

Yeah Schroder’s Laker offer was unique for sure.

Two things……Aside from that you can always find one-offs in anything if you look hard enough. And…..both have had similar roles in this league as starting combo guards masquerading as 1’s when forced to do so. In their primes the overall production is similar…….surprised we are still overrating White whose flaws are being masked by Tatum/Jaylen’s health and offensive explosions.

 

[128]

Yeah Schroder’s Laker offer was unique for sure.

Two things……Aside from that you can always find one-offs in anything if you look hard enough. And…..both have had similar roles in this league as starting combo guards masquerading as 1’s when forced to do so. In their primes the overall production is similar…….surprised we are still overrating White whose flaws are being masked by Tatum/Jaylen’s health and offensive explosions.

In his past two games, White is 8 for 12 from the floor, including 5 for 8 from 3-point range. He's not going to stay that hot, in all likelihood, but he appears to be emerging from his slump.

 

[benhogan]

Yeah Schroder’s Laker offer was unique for sure.

Two things……Aside from that you can always find one-offs in anything if you look hard enough. And…..both have had similar roles in this league as starting combo guards masquerading as 1’s when forced to do so. In their primes the overall production is similar…….surprised we are still overrating White whose flaws are being masked by Tatum/Jaylen’s health and offensive explosions.

you have to see White's defensive fingerprints vs Schroder's just about every time down the floor, right? I mean it's SSS and anecdotal, but you can definitely see it. DW can hold his own in the post for 5 secs or less. DS would quickly leave the lane and force the other 4 into rotation

 

[HomeRunBaker]

In his past two games, White is 8 for 12 from the floor, including 5 for 8 from 3-point range. He's not going to stay that hot, in all likelihood, but he appears to be emerging from his slump.

Right and Schroder had some big offensive games as well. I was referring to the comment about White clearly being the superior player. Schroder may be on the downside of his career (or maybe not I dunno) but they seem pretty similarly productive players in their prime.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I thought it was pretty well understood that there was a substantial offer made? DS went as far to make a elf effacing joke about "dropping the bag" on a Social media post? But I'm just going off reports from NBA insiders

as far as the Lakers valuing defense vs offense just look how they felt about Caruso?...or how they built this mess in the off-season around 2 of the best players in the NBA.

of course Brad has taken a different tact and traded out offense for defense at just about every turn

Yeah, with Schroder I think they vaguely discussed a contract and DS wanted to wait until he could test the market. So it's both true that the Lakers would have made him an outsized offer, and that the rumored deal never actually was there for him to sign, so it wasn't like say Nerlens Noel, where he had the firm offer refused to sign then the team pulled it. I have no doubt that the Lakers would have made him SOME kind of big offer, but I always hesitate to credit the exact numbers on things like this because we so often hear some big number, then it turns out to not be exactly true and when the actual offer gets made it's smaller.

 

[benhogan]

Not sure they go there, but there are theoretically a number of options in FA this year:

Claxton, Bryant, Bamba, etc.

I mean, none of those guys is Timelord or even close…

Yep, nobody will be close to TL's unicorn skillset.

It would be about protecting TL while also preparing for Horford's age-related decline. Luckily for the Celtics a defensively inclined bench BIGs is one of the cheapest positions to acquire

Claxton, Bryant, Bamba are interesting. Other bench players to consider sign/trade: McGee, Derrick Jones Jr, Kyle Anderson, Boucher, Covington, McDaniels, Bazley, Roby, Sims, Bassey

2022 Draft and European league may have talent.

Big Game hunting would include: John Collins, Christian Woods, Jerami Grant, Gafford, Mitchell Robinson

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I think some team is going to overpay Bamba.

Or maybe not even overpay him. Who knows, he had a weird development arc. He looked lost prior to this year.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I think some team is going to overpay Bamba.

Or maybe not even overpay him. Who knows, he had a weird development arc. He looked lost prior to this year.

He’s going to get paid paid paid on potential and he still has a bunch of upside in that body & athleticism on top of a leap this year.

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

There is growing evidence that not all the Celtics are vaccinated. Toucher and Rich talked about this the other day, but misremembered that the mandate went into effect on January 15, not mid November.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33631986/facing-potential-playoff-games-toronto-boston-celtics-philadelphia-76ers-decline-say-teams-fully-vaccinated

When asked directly within the past 24 hours if their teams are fully vaccinated, both the Boston Celtics and Philadelphia 76ers declined to comment to ESPN -- opening the possibility that both teams could potentially be missing players in road games of a first-round playoff series against the Toronto Raptors.

And of course, we know that the J's and Big Al didn't play in Toronto the other night (TL didn't either, but that was after the injury and he has said be vaccinated). Tatum said at the beginning of the year that he was.

 

[benhogan]

He’s going to get paid paid paid on potential and he still has a bunch of upside in that body & athleticism on top of a leap this year.

I wouldn't mind passing on Bamba, not sure how he'd feel about a bench role (and being Rob's caddy). A BIG will slip through the cracks.

There usually isn't a line around the block for defense first bench BIGs

 

[chilidawg]

There is growing evidence that not all the Celtics are vaccinated. Toucher and Rich talked about this the other day, but misremembered that the mandate went into effect on January 15, not mid November.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33631986/facing-potential-playoff-games-toronto-boston-celtics-philadelphia-76ers-decline-say-teams-fully-vaccinated



And of course, we know that the J's and Big Al didn't play in Toronto the other night (TL didn't either, but that was after the injury and he has said be vaccinated). Tatum said at the beginning of the year that he was.

I'm not sure I'd call that evidence. More like opening the possibility that it's the case. On the other hand Al missed the previous game as well, Tatum and Brown do have knee issues, it was a back to back, and these guys were due for a night off. That seems like it's the far more likely explanation.

 

[128]

I'm not sure I'd call that evidence. More like opening the possibility that it's the case. On the other hand Al missed the previous game as well, Tatum and Brown do have knee issues, it was a back to back, and these guys were due for a night off. That seems like it's the far more likely explanation.

I would think media members would have asked Ime about this report during his pregame availability this evening.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Imagine playing the last half of the season like this just to blow it away by not being able to play in Toronto.

What an absolute gut punch to the fanbase that would be to, too. I'm going to believe Ime but I'll be pretty upset if everyone isn't playing in Toronto.

I wonder how many teams are hoping for Toronto to miss the playoffs.

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

I'm not sure I'd call that evidence. More like opening the possibility that it's the case. On the other hand Al missed the previous game as well, Tatum and Brown do have knee issues, it was a back to back, and these guys were due for a night off. That seems like it's the far more likely explanation.

Then why would they decline to comment?

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Then why would they decline to comment?

To keep Toronto guessing?