Celtics hire Ime Udoka as HC

[pjheff]

Yep. It is not the big ask (or concession to losing) people make it out to be. I kind of wonder, if Miami had drafted Langford, would he have established himself by now. And if we had drafted Herro would he not have?

The C’s have developed Olynyk, Smart, Rozier, Brown, Tatum, and RWilliams in the last decade. They’ve also not developed Melo, Young, Hunter, and Yabusele during that time. If Langford and/or Nesmith don’t establish themselves, it won’t be due to an environment that blocked their development.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

The C’s have developed Olynyk, Smart, Rozier, Brown, Tatum, and RWilliams in the last decade. They’ve also not developed Melo, Young, Hunter, and Yabusele during that time. If Langford and/or Nesmith don’t establish themselves, it won’t be due to an environment that blocked their development.

Your first two sentences don’t prove the third.

 

[pjheff]

Your first two sentences don’t prove the third.

True. Neither does your speculation. It’s an easy narrative that the C’s don’t develop their young players because the team sure could use greater contributions from Nesmith and Langford right now. But the organization has developed young players, those drafted higher and lower, in recent years, and it’s not as if the draftees who’ve missed have gone elsewhere and emerged. The variable in the equation is the player.

 

[NomarsFool]

I feel like Stevens erred in his development of young players by playing them for a short stint in a game, and then often benching them for the rest.

I feel like Udoka has had a different approach where a guy will play meaningful minutes for a game or two, and then have DNP-CDs for games on end.

Neither approach gives the players any reasonable expectations about whether or how much they are going to play, I think. Players need playing time to develop, because there really is no practice during the season.

 

[lexrageorge]

I feel like Stevens erred in his development of young players by playing them for a short stint in a game, and then often benching them for the rest.

I feel like Udoka has had a different approach where a guy will play meaningful minutes for a game or two, and then have DNP-CDs for games on end.

Neither approach gives the players any reasonable expectations about whether or how much they are going to play, I think. Players need playing time to develop, because there really is no practice during the season.

As noted, Robert Williams, Kelly Olynyk, Marcus Smart, and Terry Rozier developed into everyday NBA players under Coach Brad Stevens. Not sure why this meme about player development and the Celtics keeps coming up, to be honest.

Ime's playing time distribution is a different, albeit related topic. But Ime is also being pressured to win games and make the playoffs. At this point, it's on Langford and Nesmith to show that they belong in the rotation.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I feel like Stevens erred in his development of young players by playing them for a short stint in a game, and then often benching them for the rest.

I feel like Udoka has had a different approach where a guy will play meaningful minutes for a game or two, and then have DNP-CDs for games on end.

Neither approach gives the players any reasonable expectations about whether or how much they are going to play, I think. Players need playing time to develop, because there really is no practice during the season.

During neither tenure have we been in developmental mode. Teams (theoretically) competing for deep playoff runs and acquiring veteran players are going to play the guys who give us the best chance to win. Those guys didn’t sign here to watch the 2006 Celtics and Wyc sure isn’t deep into the tax to sit courtside to watch this. It’s the same with all teams who have invested in this years teams that are going to play the young guys extended minites if they earned them or injuries/Covid left them no other choice.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I think the “players X, Y, and C” developed under team/coach/GM X thus the team’s development of players cannot be criticized is absurd. All the more so if players like Smart and Olynyk are listed among the successes - the team sucked so the got to play, a lot, right away. Their success says absolutely nothing about the success of a Langford.

Also, prospects aren’t all the same.

The Brad/Ime Celtics are 1) not good enough to win as they are and 2) there isn’t a lot of reason to be confident that they will improve themselves via the player development route.

The reason this criticism is fair is because there are teams in the NBA that are able to do this.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Yeah I think that citing top picks like Smart, Tatum, and Brown is proof of nothing development-wise. Those guys would have been players whoever drafted them.

Robert Williams, Terry, and Olynyk are success stories, but there are a bunch of guys Danny drafted around where they were who turned into nothing (or at least nothing so far).

No way to know how much of this is drafting vs. development of course. It's a fair question to ask out loud, whether Herro or Langford develop differently in different orgs. I don't think that there's any way to know that answer.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Yeah I think that citing top picks like Smart, Tatum, and Brown is proof of nothing development-wise. Those guys would have been players whoever drafted them.

Robert Williams, Terry, and Olynyk are success stories, but there are a bunch of guys Danny drafted around where they were who turned into nothing (or at least nothing so far).

No way to know how much of this is drafting vs. development of course. It's a fair question to ask out loud, whether Herro or Langford develop differently in different orgs. I don't think that there's any way to know that answer.

Terry is arguably a failure. not of developent per se but of failing to recognize value.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

What was it about Romeo’s 3-point shooting were you right about……that he would shoot 50% early on sss, go through a 5-28 stretch or that he’s shouting 40% on them since?

That his shot was still very much in question and that we should wait for a bigger sample size. He thought that was absurd and that we definitely had enough proof Romeo's 3 point shot was fixed.

Then he decides to troll me for it for the next 4 months. He must be like 5 years old.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Yeah I think that citing top picks like Smart, Tatum, and Brown is proof of nothing development-wise. Those guys would have been players whoever drafted them.

Robert Williams, Terry, and Olynyk are success stories, but there are a bunch of guys Danny drafted around where they were who turned into nothing (or at least nothing so far).

No way to know how much of this is drafting vs. development of course. It's a fair question to ask out loud, whether Herro or Langford develop differently in different orgs. I don't think that there's any way to know that answer.

Yeah the “development” that a team does is so overrated as nearly all teams hire quality coaches while few hire magicians who can turn water into port.

There are two primary factors in a players growth to the next level……individual skillset and opportunity. Rozier, for example, showed the skillset when he was here but playing behind Kyrie didn’t have the opportunity. Is that ok Danny for not trying to win a championship with a loaded roster over the development of a rookie contract player? Players take different time to grow and find their niche but without the right opportunity it will rarely be realized. Once you have an opportunity, like Strus and Nesmith have each had, it is up to the player to take advantage of it.

Having said that…..teams misjudge talent all the time (or for whatever reason are poor fits) and don’t give that player an opportunity prior to them fading out of the league or catching on elsewhere and taking advantage of the opportunity that team offered to them. To me, that is poor evaluation of a player (Garrison Mathew? Strus?) which differs from poor development. There is a balance as spending an extra year on one player over another which again is player evaluation and not development. Just as you don’t want to give up on a player too soon you also risk him blocking a roster spot of a guy that you could have received an opportunity.

Edit: Mostly what Eddie said.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I think it’s difficult to give consistent playing time to guys who are routinely not available. Langford and now Nesmith seem to always be injured, which is likely as big a factor in their lack of development as anything else.

Nesmith has missed all of 2 games.

edit: He's missed all of 3 due to injury. 1 last year, 2 this year. Always injured though.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Yeah the “development” that a team does is so overrated as nearly all teams hire quality coaches while few hire magicians who can turn water into port.

There are two primary factors in a players growth to the next level……individual skillset and opportunity. Rozier, for example, showed the skillset when he was here but playing behind Kyrie didn’t have the opportunity. Is that ok Danny for not trying to win a championship with a loaded roster over the development of a rookie contract player? Players take different time to grow and find their niche but without the right opportunity it will rarely be realized. Once you have an opportunity, like Strus and Nesmith have each had, it is up to the player to take advantage of it.

Having said that…..teams misjudge talent all the time (or for whatever reason are poor fits) and don’t give that player an opportunity prior to them fading out of the league or catching on elsewhere and taking advantage of the opportunity that team offered to them. To me, that is poor evaluation of a player (Garrison Mathew? Strus?) which differs from poor development. There is a balance as spending an extra year on one player over another which again is player evaluation and not development. Just as you don’t want to give up on a player too soon you also risk him blocking a roster spot of a guy that you could have received an opportunity.

Edit: Mostly what Eddie said.

Are Langford and Nesmith due to poor player development or poor player evaluation?

Grant Williams developed just fine. TL developed just fine. Maybe RL and AN just aren't that good. But I'm a believer that true talent will always rise to the top.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Nesmith has missed all of 2 games.

Perfect example of a guy who has continued to receive opportunity after opportunity these past two years. That’s the other factor…..1st round picks, especially higher 1st round picks are going to the top of the pecking order by the GM who selected him if all else is equal or even close to equal. Nesmith and Garrison Mathews would have much different career paths had the latter been the 14th pick and the former an UFA.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Perfect example of a guy who has continued to receive opportunity after opportunity these past two years. That’s the other factor…..1st round picks, especially higher 1st round picks are going to the top of the pecking order by the GM who selected him if all else is equal or even close to equal. Nesmith and Garrison Mathews would have much different career paths had the latter been the 14th pick and the former an UFA.

I dunno. RL and AN both received opportunity after opportunity but PP has also been given a few chances, and Grant Williams got plenty of time too.

The Celtics have been giving minutes to young players, they just haven't done anything with those minutes.

I don't know if it's a failure by the C's to develop players when the players do nothing with the time they get. Seems like it's more a drafting/evaluation failure. If you draft a lemon, he's never going to turn into a steak.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Are Langford and Nesmith due to poor player development or poor player evaluation?

Grant Williams developed just fine. TL developed just fine. Maybe RL and AN just aren't that good. But I'm a believer that true talent will always rise to the top.

I wouldn’t include the word “poor” at all with Romeo. He’s a mid-1st pick who is a rotation player on a team built for the playoffs. He’s about where he projects to be at this stage. Nesmith arrived deer in headlights from day one and as mentioned above if he was an UFA it’s unlikely he’d have a second year here to improve. The risk with him now is how Brad evaluates him…….maybe he sees something to bring him back and Aaron takes off, maybe Brad sees something that isn’t there and he’s brough back only to block another player from succeeding with that roster spot. Personally I didn’t see enough last year to bring him back this year so yeah it was poor evaluation to this point as that roster spot could have been used on another prospect…..Strus? Mathews? Other guys who would fail? It’s an imperfect science but every decision along with the timing of it has consequences which can be positive or negative.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I wouldn’t include the word “poor” at all with Romeo. He’s a mid-1st pick who is a rotation player on a team built for the playoffs. He’s about where he projects to be at this stage. Nesmith arrived deer in headlights from day one and as mentioned above if he was an UFA it’s unlikely he’d have a second year here to improve. The risk with him now is how Brad evaluates him…….maybe he sees something to bring him back and Aaron takes off, maybe Brad sees something that isn’t there and he’s brough back only to block another player from succeeding with that roster spot. Personally I didn’t see enough last year to bring him back this year so yeah it was poor evaluation to this point as that roster spot could have been used on another prospect…..Strus? Mathews? Other guys who would fail? It’s an imperfect science but every decision along with the timing of it has consequences which can be positive or negative.

I don't agree with that. RL is only a rotation player because the C's lack depth and besides that, the team might not even make the playoffs.

Even if RL wasn't "poor," he's been a major disappointment. Maybe he can build off his last 2 games though, it's a start.

 

[PedrosRedGlove]

They're probably about average at development. Three (Tatum, Brown, Smart) of the recent successes are lottery picks. Some credit should definitely be given for the development of Rob Williams.

It does seem like they've had a harder time doing it when in contending mode. The early Brad years it seemed like it was a real strength. Olynyk, Smart, and Rozier showed growth, and even what they were doing with guys like IT, Turner, and Crowder. Brad was very good at getting improvement out of his players.

Since going all in for Kyrie and Hayward, it hasn't felt the same. Culminating with the current situation with Langford and Nesmith, hoping we didn't bust on consecutive #14 picks, and having little depth to show from the later pick try outs we've had over the past few years. Grant Williams and Pritchard do offer something there. But it's unfortunate to have nothing to show out of Edwards, Fall, Waters, Green, Yabu, and Zizic. Guys they invested some sort of money, draft capital, or playing time in and never really contributed.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I dunno. RL and AN both received opportunity after opportunity but PP has also been given a few chances, and Grant Williams got plenty of time too.

The Celtics have been giving minutes to young players, they just haven't done anything with those minutes.

I don't know if it's a failure by the C's to develop players when the players do nothing with the time they get. Seems like it's more a drafting/evaluation failure. If you draft a lemon, he's never going to turn into a steak.

Absolutely and I’ve been saying this for two years. This is why I don’t buy the “let’s see what we have” crew bc we have seen plenty. Another fallacy is thinking that when a guy takes off a couple years down the road we failed at “development” (or whatever) when change of scenery/role/comfort zone all play factors. Fresh starts for marginal players can be underrated as proper fits are crucial to that player finding his niche within that team.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I don't agree with that. RL is only a rotation player because the C's lack depth and besides that, the team might not even make the playoffs.

Even if RL wasn't "poor," he's been a major disappointment. Maybe he can build off his last 2 games though, it's a start.

We probably have more veteran depth than most teams in the league with Schroder, Grant, and J-Rich yet Romeo has still played many 4Q minutes. I’m not sure what your expectations are for a 14th overall pick…..that’s essentially a flier and most drafted around there are out of the league in 5-6 years.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

It does seem like they've had a harder time doing it when in contending mode. The early Brad years it seemed like it was a real strength. Olynyk, Smart, and Rozier showed growth, and even what they were doing with guys like IT, Turner, and Crowder. Brad was very good at getting improvement out of his players.

That's a league wide thing. If you aren't contending, there are far more minutes to go around for younger players. Those early Stevens teams didn't have a bunch of players expecting to play 30 minutes every game.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

We probably have more veteran depth than most teams in the league with Schroder, Grant, and J-Rich yet Romeo has still played many 4Q minutes. I’m not sure what your expectations are for a 14th overall pick…..that’s essentially a flier and most drafted around there are out of the league in 5-6 years.

Maybe I want the C's to do better than "expected outcome" especially when that outcome is "out of the league in 5 years."

I'm guessing most people here thought Romeo would be far better right now than he actually is. Or were at least hoping for it. I mean, if you go into the draft wanting a player who is out of the league in 5 years at the 14 spot, good for you. I'd rather aim higher.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Absolutely and I’ve been saying this for two years. This is why I don’t buy the “let’s see what we have” crew bc we have seen plenty. Another fallacy is thinking that when a guy takes off a couple years down the road we failed at “development” (or whatever) when change of scenery/role/comfort zone all play factors. Fresh starts for marginal players can be underrated as proper fits are crucial to that player finding his niche within that team.

What has been missing is consistent minutes. The rotation---especially this year---is a mess and that is pretty clearly bad for development of younger players. I agree that these guys haven't shown that they are anything great, but not giving them regular run is an issue.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

What has been missing is consistent minutes. The rotation---especially this year---is a mess and that is pretty clearly bad for development of younger players. I agree that these guys haven't shown that they are anything great, but not giving them regular run is an issue.

but they have been getting regular minutes or they all had multiple game stretches where they received minutes. What you are saying is just not true.

How can people say RL wasn't getting consistent minutes? Is Grant Williams not getting consistent minutes?

 

[Cesar Crespo]

But, but, but consistent minutes. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/langfro01/gamelog/2022

What's the excuse?

but, but, but... https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nesmiaa01/gamelog/2022

Again, what's the excuse? They were all given a chance and given actual minutes.

Nope, they don't play youth. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willigr01/gamelog/2022

People are glossing over the fact the young players were all given chances, and some multiple.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

They're probably about average at development. Three (Tatum, Brown, Smart) of the recent successes are lottery picks. Some credit should definitely be given for the development of Rob Williams.

It does seem like they've had a harder time doing it when in contending mode. The early Brad years it seemed like it was a real strength. Olynyk, Smart, and Rozier showed growth, and even what they were doing with guys like IT, Turner, and Crowder. Brad was very good at getting improvement out of his players.

Since going all in for Kyrie and Hayward, it hasn't felt the same. Culminating with the current situation with Langford and Nesmith, hoping we didn't bust on consecutive #14 picks, and having little depth to show from the later pick try outs we've had over the past few years. Grant Williams and Pritchard do offer something there. But it's unfortunate to have nothing to show out of Edwards, Fall, Waters, Green, Yabu, and Zizic. Guys they invested some sort of money, draft capital, or playing time in and never really contributed.

It's always much harder to develop guys when a team is trying to win. I've said before that I think if Romeo was playing on DET or ORL, he'd be putting up decent numbers because his ability to defend would give him minutes and he would get a bunch of shots because no one would care if he went 3-13 for a few games.

No way to know how much of this is drafting vs. development of course. It's a fair question to ask out loud, whether Herro or Langford develop differently in different orgs. I don't think that there's any way to know that answer.

Herro almost assuredly has a different development path if he spent most of the game standing in the corner waiting for one of the Jays to pass him the ball.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Herro almost assuredly has a different development path if he spent most of the game standing in the corner waiting for one of the Jays to pass him the ball.

So are the Jays the reason for poor player development? That would be very hard to build around.

edit: And if so, how does one fix it without trading one of them? Does adding a real distributor fix the problem?

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

So are the Jays the reason for poor player development? That would be very hard to build around.

edit: And if so, how does one fix it without trading one of them? Does adding a real distributor fix the problem?

I don't have a counter-factual so don't know for sure but I have to imagine it's hard for a lot of young guys to play with Jays unless (i) they are a catch-and-shoot 3P shooter (i.e., GW; note that neither AN nor RL were that in college) or (ii) handles the ball a lot on their own (PP).

AN for instance looks to me to shoot the ball much better when he's on the move - whether slashing or shooting off the pick. Having him stand in the corner and wait for the ball to get to him isn't the best use of his skills IMO but unless the Cs run a set play for him (which Ime has done occasionally), it's not like the Jays are waiting for AN to come off a screen and get him the ball.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Maybe I want the C's to do better than "expected outcome" especially when that outcome is "out of the league in 5 years."

I'm guessing most people here thought Romeo would be far better right now than he actually is. Or were at least hoping for it. I mean, if you go into the draft wanting a player who is out of the league in 5 years at the 14 spot, good for you. I'd rather aim higher.

And they did. I doubt anyone here feels Romeo will be out of the league in 5 years based on him year over year improvements.

What has been missing is consistent minutes. The rotation---especially this year---is a mess and that is pretty clearly bad for development of younger players. I agree that these guys haven't shown that they are anything great, but not giving them regular run is an issue.

You EARN consistent minutes. Langford and Grant have had consistent minutes all year bc they performed their roles well/fairly well. Nesmith and Pritchard are shooters who weren’t performing so they didn’t play.

If you were a sales guy in a competitive environment but couldn’t close anyone would you be complaining that others got better leads? (Actually don’t ask that as every sales person I have managed always felt they deserved more and better leads lol)

 

[PedroKsBambino]

And they did. I doubt anyone here feels Romeo will be out of the league in 5 years based on him year over year improvements.


You EARN consistent minutes. Langford and Grant have had consistent minutes all year bc they performed their roles well/fairly well. Nesmith and Pritchard are shooters who weren’t performing so they didn’t play.

If you were a sales guy in a competitive environment but couldn’t close anyone would you be complaining that others got better leads? (Actually don’t ask that as every sales person I have managed always felt they deserved more and better leads lol)

It's a balance. The problem I have is also with getting SOME consistent opporutnity, not that they should be giving Nesmith 20 minutes a game until he earns it.

I do not agree Langford has had consistent minutes, and his case is the one that is most glaring---he's been solid (not great at all) and his minutes still bounce around a lot. PP, to me, earned them last year and didn't get them the first 20 games, which caused a crisis of confidence. You have the order of those things wrong, imo.

Nesmith, to a fair degree, I think it is fair to say he has not always earned the next game's minutes.

Grant, to me, has been in a different place than the above since last year.

As I see it, among three development guys Ime has been inconsistent on two of them and (at best) unhelpful but not unreasonable on the third.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Nesmith has missed all of 2 games.

edit: He's missed all of 3 due to injury. 1 last year, 2 this year. Always injured though.

My bad; I guess my perception about him often being unavailable was off.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

My bad; I guess my perception about him often being unavailable was off.

It's RL/TL fatigue. I did the same thing like a week ago.

edit: AN and MS are good to go today. Celtics are at full health.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

It's a balance. The problem I have is also with getting SOME consistent opporutnity, not that they should be giving Nesmith 20 minutes a game until he earns it.

I do not agree Langford has had consistent minutes, and his case is the one that is most glaring---he's been solid (not great at all) and his minutes still bounce around a lot. PP, to me, earned them last year and didn't get them the first 20 games, which caused a crisis of confidence. You have the order of those things wrong, imo.

Nesmith, to a fair degree, I think it is fair to say he has not always earned the next game's minutes.

Grant, to me, has been in a different place than the above since last year.

As I see it, among three development guys Ime has been inconsistent on two of them and (at best) unhelpful but not unreasonable on the third.

Langford has played 36 games this year with only 1-2 DNP-CD that I recall. He’s logged 16-24 min in 18 of those games (50%) and greater than 24 min in 8 others (22%). I mean that’s about as consistent as you get for a role player who isn’t your top guy off the bench.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Langford has played 36 games this year with only 1-2 DNP-CD that I recall. He’s logged 16-24 min in 18 of those games (50%) and greater than 24 min in 8 others (22%). I mean that’s about as consistent as you get for a role player.

No, it’s just not so. This calendar year he’s played:

8
0
2
0
3
16
0
5
17
23

In no world is that consistent. As you know from gamethreads and the analysis threads there is some divergence in views on how well he has (or has not) played this year. My point is that the lack of consistency is part of the problem; if you're willing to say he's shown nothing and shouldn't get minutes the usage is fine---but I don't think that's fair/true of RL

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Langford has played 36 games this year with only 1-2 DNP-CD that I recall. He’s logged 16-24 min in 18 of those games (50%) and greater than 24 min in 8 others (22%). I mean that’s about as consistent as you get for a role player who isn’t your top guy off the bench.

He has 5 but 3 came in the last few weeks. He also missed 6 games for injuries/other.

He was given consistent minutes up until the beginning of January when Ime moved away from him. Looks like he's out of the dog house as he's played 15+ the last 2 games.

He even had one stretch where he played 28.0 over 6 games, and didn't play less than 23:25.

I'm with you though. Romeo was given a real chance until the end of December and is getting his 2nd chance now. His first 29 games he was at 19.9 mpg with 2 DNP-CDs. He also missed 5 games due to injury. Unless consistent minutes means playing 20 minutes on the dot every single night, I'm not sure how Romeo's minutes could be any more consistent for 8th/9th man.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

No, it’s just not so. This calendar year he’s played:

8
0
2
0
3
16
0
5
17
23

In no world is that consistent.

Yeah, because he wasn't very good from Oct-Dec when he was getting consistent playing time. I don't think he was anyway, and clearly Ime agreed.

He got a chance before that, and he lost it with poor performance. He's now getting his 2nd chance. That's normal player development. Romeo's just not developing in a normal way.

edit: Team health plays a part in his minute reduction too.

 

[Swedgin]

The absence of true PG/playmaker cannot be helping their development. Desmond Bane is a frequent topic of conversation (understandably) on this board. I have to think getting to run with Ja has played some part in his early success. An unselfish elite playmaker obviously makes everyone better, but that's magnified for players who are limited, whether to due to talent level or developmental stage. Much like a poor O-line inhibits the ability to accurately asses quarterback play, the lack of a real PG makes it more challenging to evaluate a wing like AN.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

No, it’s just not so. This calendar year he’s played:

8
0
2
0
3
16
0
5
17
23

In no world is that consistent. As you know from gamethreads and the analysis threads there is some divergence in views on how well he has (or has not) played this year. My point is that the lack of consistency is part of the problem; if you're willing to say he's shown nothing and shouldn't get minutes the usage is fine---but I don't think that's fair/true of RL

This was prior to Ime changing his rotation. Prior to start of year, when Romeo was playing and shooting well, his rotations were extremely consistent. When Romeo became more inconsistent with energy and missing his corner 3 he lost those minutes. Deservedly so too.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Boy, Ime sure coached a lot better today. <rimshot>

 

[Cellar-Door]

Part of the Heat's ability to develop guys is that the guys they have developed often are guys with very particular roles, often shooters, and they have been able to develop them in part because they gave them minutes with vet PGs to help.

Also, MIA has plenty of Whiffs... Winslow, Napier, Cole, Aciuwa was on his way,

 

[benhogan]

If you were a sales guy in a competitive environment but couldn’t close anyone would you be complaining that others got better leads? (Actually don’t ask that as every sales person I have managed always felt they deserved more and better leads lol)

Williamson, I'm going to Mitch & Maury...

The greatest 8 minute Sales speech ever:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCcKIkMp8Y

 

[NomarsFool]

How does Al Horford log over 34 minutes in a game where you led by 20 for most of the game? Langford had ~4 non-garbage time minutes. Was this game 7 of the NBA finals?

I'm okay with leaving Tatum in. He was going for 50, playing against his buddy - no problem with that. But, it was quite curious there was no attempt to spread the minutes around until under 4 minutes to go in the 4th quarter.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Boy, Ime sure coached a lot better today. <rimshot>

Cant say for sure without a deep dive into minutes and rotations.

 

[benhogan]

Tatum IME-proofed this one. BUT the 2BIGZzz lineup against the Wizards, when they didn't have a Center on the floor, was hilarious. Good thing he got a stealthy 35mins from Horford.

This .500 team with a +2.1 difference has them zeroing in on dead last in win expectations vs actual.

The good news is IME won Q4 today!

 

[HomeRunBaker]

How does Al Horford log over 34 minutes in a game where you led by 20 for most of the game? Langford had ~4 non-garbage time minutes. Was this game 7 of the NBA finals?

I'm okay with leaving Tatum in. He was going for 50, playing against his buddy - no problem with that. But, it was quite curious there was no attempt to spread the minutes around until under 4 minutes to go in the 4th quarter.

The simple answer is that because the Romeo decision was made that he wasn’t in the rotation and that the game was not secured until the final 4 minutes with days off on each side of the schedule. As we saw in the Heat/Laker game tonight and many other times…..a 20-pt lead is not a lot of possessions to overcome in a short period of time. Laker boards were on fire for him being out there in the 4Q…..until it was a two possession game.

 

[Van Everyman]

Cant say for sure without a deep dive into minutes and rotations.

I know you’re taking the piss but I seriously fucking hate this shit. I get that it’s not ideal to have guys playing excessive minutes. But the constant whining about how guys are missing shots followed by people beating the shit out of coach for leaving these guys in to get into a rhythm is mind boggling.

Not to be an old man, but in the 80s we didn’t wring our hands over Larry and McHale playing 35 minutes so Rick Robey and Greg Kite could get more floor time. And I’d guess dudes are in better shape today than they were then.

I’m not saying he’s perfect. And I know the effort and results vary wildly from game to game, even quarter to quarter. But if Ime thinks Tatum needs more minutes to get his offensive game together in this system, I have to believe he needs more minutes in this system. Meanwhile while everyone has been harping on how Jaylen’s knee is going to explode any minute, he seems to be doing fine after the early season health issues.

I continue to think that this team is mostly struggling due to a new program—possibly a very new program—and not because the coach is a moron or the roster is deeply flawed.

Edit: I also think—with no actual evidence—that the pandemic has made installing a new program like this difficult. Guys out, weird protocols, shorter off seasons, etc. Every league seems to have wild variance in performance and it seems like it’s particularly hard for teams without system and roster consistency.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I know you’re taking the piss but I seriously fucking hate this shit. I get that it’s not ideal to have guys playing excessive minutes. But the constant whining about how guys are missing shots followed by people beating the shit out of coach for leaving these guys in to get into a rhythm is mind boggling.

Not to be an old man, but in the 80s we didn’t wring our hands over Larry and McHale playing 35 minutes so Rick Robey and Greg Kite could get more floor time. And I’d guess dudes are in better shape today than they were then.

I’m not saying he’s perfect. And I know the effort and results vary wildly from game to game, even quarter to quarter. But if Ime thinks Tatum needs more minutes to get his offensive game together in this system, I have to believe he needs more minutes in this system. Meanwhile while everyone has been harping on how Jaylen’s knee is going to explode any minute, he seems to be doing fine after the early season health issues.

I continue to think that this team is mostly struggling due to a new program—possibly a very new program—and not because the coach is a moron or the roster is deeply flawed.

In the 80s we didn't know the benfits of correctly managing minutes, also... Larry's body broke into little pieces because of heavy workloads. Also, every guy in the league is 10x the athlete, the impact on the body of the modern game is high because everyone is in great shape, they're running harder, jumping higher and having more significant impacts.

Also.. rhythm? Really? We think that Tatum's missed 3s were because he hadn't taken enough in the last 6 months?

Good coaches manage minutes to keep guys fresh, they use rotations like other modern era teams to give their team the ability to play their best in every one of their minutes.

 

[Van Everyman]

Bird effed his back up working on his mother’s farm. It had nothing to do with KC Jones overplaying him. Plus, there was no such thing as load management (which I kind of hate but whatever).

The reps Tatum needs aren’t just about shooting. They’re also necessary because after 7 or 8 years of only thinking about one thing on the offensive end of the court—scoring—now he’s thinking about passing the ball … sometimes. So his head is a mess. It will get better, I think, but that takes time. And game reps.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Bird effed his back up working on his mother’s farm. It had nothing to do with KC Jones overplaying him. Plus, there was no such thing as load management (which I kind of hate but whatever).

The reps Tatum needs aren’t just about shooting. They’re also necessary because after 7 or 8 years of only thinking about one thing on the offensive end of the court—scoring—now he’s thinking about passing the ball … sometimes. So his head is a mess. It will get better, I think, but that takes time. And game reps.

I mean, Bird's body fell apart because he did farm work, and drank soda and ate garbage, and ran laps around the garden and played tons of minutes. And no load management is exactly the point. In the modern NBA we understand load management, which is why you don't play Jayson Tatum a million minutes every night including massive stretches of consecutive minutes. Ime's rotations and minutes are straight out of like 1992, in the Modern NBA you manage the load you put on your players both for their long term health and because it usually leads to better performance in less minutes.

 

[Van Everyman]

I mean, Bird's body fell apart because he did farm work, and drank soda and ate garbage, and ran laps around the garden and played tons of minutes. And no load management is exactly the point. In the modern NBA we understand load management, which is why you don't play Jayson Tatum a million minutes every night including massive stretches of consecutive minutes. Ime's rotations and minutes are straight out of like 1992, in the Modern NBA you manage the load you put on your players both for their long term health and because it usually leads to better performance in less minutes.

I mean, I’m not really disagreeing with you, even if I think all the worrying about Tatum’s minutes is a little OTT. I guess all I’m saying is that putting in a new system—that fundamentally changes the game of the two best players on the team—is a high risk strategy that takes time.

Part of the reason I have faith in it despite the ugly results so far is that this isn’t happening without Stevens having bought in, if not designed it himself. Stevens’ last year was a disappointment obviously but he earned a lot of credibility with me over the years. If he thinks Tatum (and Brown to a lesser extent) can become playmakers, raise their individual games and take their team to the next level, then I have to believe it’s possible – and that the guy he handpicked to coach them is qualified to help them do it.