Celtics hire Ime Udoka as HC

HowBoutDemSox

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View: https://twitter.com/SteveBHoop/status/1534761311715966976

Ime Udoka may have saved the Celtics with a key question during a timeout after his team had committed some bad turnovers. According to a source, Udoka stepped into the huddle and said, "Will you guys stop playing like assholes?" Aaaaaand we have our coaching moment of the year.
I’m just trying to imagine Brad saying that, and I can’t even get the imagine in my head, to say nothing of trying to guess what the audio would sound like. Such different styles between the two.
 

djbayko

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View: https://twitter.com/SteveBHoop/status/1534761311715966976

Ime Udoka may have saved the Celtics with a key question during a timeout after his team had committed some bad turnovers. According to a source, Udoka stepped into the huddle and said, "Will you guys stop playing like assholes?" Aaaaaand we have our coaching moment of the year.
The anti-Brad Stevens. I love Stevens, but it seems like Ime is the right man at the right time.
 

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lovegtm

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I’m just trying to imagine Brad saying that, and I can’t even get the imagine in my head, to say nothing of trying to guess what the audio would sound like. Such different styles between the two.
Anecdotally, I've heard Brad said stuff like this off-mic all the time. His reputation was very different from the in-person reality.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I think they should just scrap the entire challenge system altogether. Replay reviews take too long, ruin the flow of the game, and the challenge outcomes are completely inconsistent. How many times have we been left scratching our heads at challenge decisions that don't seem to be supported by replay? It doesn't work well at all, and I'd rather we have fewer video reviews during the course of the game.
I'd scrap all challenges and ban slow-motion replays that aren't connected to highlight reel plays. More than just a game flow thing, so much of the game is ruined because of how every single play can be analyzed more closely than the Zapruder film. Someone posted old video of one of the Russell-era title wins and the last 5 minutes of game play or whatever. There were a bunch of calls that looked questionable to me at first glance but nobody's whining at the refs, the game isn't halted for 10 minutes to review it from a thousand angles, the announcers aren't sitting there shitting on the refs or the players for screwing it up or flopping. I know the toothpaste is out of the tube here but I have always been amenable to, at most, allowing replay but only at full speed. If you need to freeze frame something to see it, then it's close enough to be arbitrary. Slow-mo replays of potential fouls do nothing but aggravate everyone. Ignorance is bliss.
 

m0ckduck

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I'd scrap all challenges and ban slow-motion replays that aren't connected to highlight reel plays. More than just a game flow thing, so much of the game is ruined because of how every single play can be analyzed more closely than the Zapruder film. Someone posted old video of one of the Russell-era title wins and the last 5 minutes of game play or whatever. There were a bunch of calls that looked questionable to me at first glance but nobody's whining at the refs, the game isn't halted for 10 minutes to review it from a thousand angles, the announcers aren't sitting there shitting on the refs or the players for screwing it up or flopping. I know the toothpaste is out of the tube here but I have always been amenable to, at most, allowing replay but only at full speed. If you need to freeze frame something to see it, then it's close enough to be arbitrary. Slow-mo replays of potential fouls do nothing but aggravate everyone. Ignorance is bliss.
Also: I've been following Celtics games since 1982, and I can't remember an incident where a single blown call made me feel that the outcome of a meaningful game was unfairly altered. There's definitely been games where the overall tenor of the refereeing made me feel that way (e.g. G7 2010 Finals) but replay isn't going to address that. And, yes, there are enough closely-played, badly-reffed games in the NBA where you're inevitably going to find a game where the point equity of several bad calls together was greater than the margin of victory (e.g. Sac-LA game 6 2002). But again, replay wouldn't have addressed the obvious officiating bias in that contest A 6th foul is the only kind of call in a basketball game that carries enough weight to merit several minutes of painstaking review, and— as you say— reviewing it in slow motion rarely brings anything new to light.

On the broader point, I've long made the argument for full-speed replays over slo-mo even in NFL games. The counter-argument is generally that with so much betting money at stake, the public has a vested interest in knowing what "really" happened on any given play at a frame-by-frame basis. I dispute the idea that, on a sports level, frame-by-frame analysis supports an understanding of what "really" happened, since sports are experienced at full-speed and revolve around subjective phenomena ("was it a catch?" "was it a foul?"). But that's a rant for another day..
 

lovegtm

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Also: I've been following Celtics games since 1982, and I can't remember an incident where a single blown call made me feel that the outcome of a meaningful game was unfairly altered. There's definitely been games where the overall tenor of the refereeing made me feel that way (e.g. G7 2010 Finals) but replay isn't going to address that. And, yes, there are enough closely-played, badly-reffed games in the NBA where you're inevitably going to find a game where the point equity of several bad calls together was greater than the margin of victory (e.g. Sac-LA game 6 2002). But again, replay wouldn't have addressed the obvious officiating bias in that contest A 6th foul is the only kind of call in a basketball game that carries enough weight to merit several minutes of painstaking review, and— as you say— reviewing it in slow motion rarely brings anything new to light.

On the broader point, I've long made the argument for full-speed replays over slo-mo even in NFL games. The counter-argument is generally that with so much betting money at stake, the public has a vested interest in knowing what "really" happened on any given play at a frame-by-frame basis. I dispute the idea that, on a sports level, frame-by-frame analysis supports an understanding of what "really" happened, since sports are experienced at full-speed and revolve around subjective phenomena ("was it a catch?" "was it a foul?"). But that's a rant for another day..
The problem with full-speed replay is that refs will just watch it over and over again anyway, so you just end up with bad human-generated slo-mo.
 

kieckeredinthehead

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Also: I've been following Celtics games since 1982, and I can't remember an incident where a single blown call made me feel that the outcome of a meaningful game was unfairly altered.
McHale “goaltend” in 91 ECSF game 6, the only time I saw my grandfather angry.
 

Eddie Jurak

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McHale “goaltend” in 91 ECSF game 6, the only time I saw my grandfather angry.
Is that the same game where Reggie fouled out late? On a play where his man received the ball and went up for a shot, Reggie stepped backwards to avoid any contact (which he did), and the ref must have read it as "Reggie bounced off contact" and called the foul. Can't remember when that was but it has haunted me for decades.
 

kieckeredinthehead

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Is that the same game where Reggie fouled out late? On a play where his man received the ball and went up for a shot, Reggie stepped backwards to avoid any contact (which he did), and the ref must have read it as "Reggie bounced off contact" and called the foul. Can't remember when that was but it has haunted me for decades.
That was game 5.

The goaltend came with about 40 seconds left in regulation, tie game that they ended up losing in OT. Maybe if the only example I can think of happened 31 years ago, it’s more an exception that proves the rule, but that game turned me into a lifelong believer in at least some kind of replay system. Although the way it works now, 50/50 it gets overturned.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Remember Ime Udoka after the loss to the Bucks in game 5 of that series? He was upbeat and confident and talking about the opportunity to come back and win it.

Not so last night.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2022/06/14/karalis-ime-udokas-frustration-shows-as-his-green-celtics-struggle-under-the-finals-spotlight

Hard to explain that start,” Udoka said of the first quarter. I’ll be honest, I don’t think I’ve ever heard him use the phrase ‘hard to explain’ with us, much less use it so often.

“They took the fight to us a little bit early. We were struggling to finish in the paint. So that was pretty evident early on,” he continued. “Poor start overall. That's hard to explain that, why that is. But we got back in. Turnovers, missed free throws, some of the things obviously, a little bit talking to the refs too much didn't help us in the fourth. But the start is hard to explain. We were guarding well enough. They had 27. For the most part they had 19, 17, with a few minutes left, but our offense was stagnant, unaggressive.”
Unlike Milwaukee, Ime is at a loss this time.

Ime had his own problems in this game. He called Boston's second timeout with 2 minutes and change left in the second quarter and did not call Boston's third until Golden State had taken full command of the game with 9:30 left in the 4th.

The Celtics high water mark was 66-61 with 3:55 to go in the third after a well-executed Grant 3-point play. After that it was 71-67 with 1:38 to go after Smart was fouled and hit 1 of 2. By the end of the quarter it was GS by a point, 75-74. Even before Poole's long bank shot at the end, GS fueled its comeback by a stretch where they shot 3-4 from three. At no point during GS 14-8 run to close the quarter (or even the 8-3 run in the final 1:38) did Ime call a time out. Then Golden State opens the 4th with an 7-0 run and only then does Ime call time. Over the next 5 minutes GS outscores the Celtics 9-5 and Ime calls his 4th time out with 4:40 left, down by 12. He loses one at the 3 minutes mark and then calls his next one with 1:19 left to wave the white flag.

Ime stood there for 6 minutes watchng his team lose control of the game and chose not to intervene. He wasn't trying to save timeouts for use later - he only called 4 while the game was at least somewhat competive. He could have been more aggressive in time out calling earlier in the game, too. Called only 2 in the whole first half - which the Celtics played terribly in.

Weird.
 

ragnarok725

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Remember Ime Udoka after the loss to the Bucks in game 5 of that series? He was upbeat and confident and talking about the opportunity to come back and win it.

Not so last night.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2022/06/14/karalis-ime-udokas-frustration-shows-as-his-green-celtics-struggle-under-the-finals-spotlight


Unlike Milwaukee, Ime is at a loss this time.

Ime had his own problems in this game. He called Boston's second timeout with 2 minutes and change left in the second quarter and did not call Boston's third until Golden State had taken full command of the game with 9:30 left in the 4th.

The Celtics high water mark was 66-61 with 3:55 to go in the third after a well-executed Grant 3-point play. After that it was 71-67 with 1:38 to go after Smart was fouled and hit 1 of 2. By the end of the quarter it was GS by a point, 75-74. Even before Poole's long bank shot at the end, GS fueled its comeback by a stretch where they shot 3-4 from three. At no point during GS 14-8 run to close the quarter (or even the 8-3 run in the final 1:38) did Ime call a time out. Then Golden State opens the 4th with an 7-0 run and only then does Ime call time. Over the next 5 minutes GS outscores the Celtics 9-5 and Ime calls his 4th time out with 4:40 left, down by 12. He loses one at the 3 minutes mark and then calls his next one with 1:19 left to wave the white flag.

Ime stood there for 6 minutes watchng his team lose control of the game and chose not to intervene. He wasn't trying to save timeouts for use later - he only called 4 while the game was at least somewhat competive. He could have been more aggressive in time out calling earlier in the game, too. Called only 2 in the whole first half - which the Celtics played terribly in.

Weird.
Not sure there's much to complain about there. The 14-8 "run" was an 11-8 stretch of fairly even play with no big swings until Poole's end of quarter prayer. The Cs played a great 3rd quarter, breaking the series trend, and pretty much carried it all the way through excepting the half court bank three. I don't think they wanted or needed a TO to break the rhythm.

The only good time to call a TO would have been after Poole's shot, but that was the end of the quarter.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Not sure there's much to complain about there. The 14-8 "run" was an 11-8 stretch of fairly even play with no big swings until Poole's end of quarter prayer. The Cs played a great 3rd quarter, breaking the series trend, and pretty much carried it all the way through excepting the half court bank three. I don't think they wanted or needed a TO to break the rhythm.

The only good time to call a TO would have been after Poole's shot, but that was the end of the quarter.
The bigger issue than the score is that the Celtics defense was giving up wide open threes. In total, GS went on a 21-8 run, admiddetly including a quarter break, before Ime called time. Did he like what he saw from the Celtics early in the 4th quarter? He’s been a frequent caller of early quarter time outs.

I wonder if his thought last night was “OK, guys, if you aren’t going to listen to me than just do it your way.”
 

ragnarok725

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The bigger issue than the score is that the Celtics defense was giving up wide open threes. In total, GS went on a 21-8 run, admiddetly including a quarter break, before Ime called time. Did he like what he saw from the Celtics early in the 4th quarter? He’s been a frequent caller of early quarter time outs.

I wonder if his thought last night was “OK, guys, if you aren’t going to listen to me than just do it your way.”
They had the Poole shot, followed by a quarter break. To start the quarter, the Warriors went Wiggins drive and shot from the paint (good), missed Wiggins 3, Poole drive and foul on White (2 FT, both good), missed Klay 3, then made Klay 3. Ime calls TO.

That feels like about the right time to make the TO call, at least defensively.

I don't think the problem was open 3s so much as an offense that had lost its rhythm from early in the 3rd. Threes weren't going down, and there were two bad Tatum TOs to start the 4th (a bad pass OOB and a travel).

Ime's TO timing last night was not anywhere near the top of their issues.
 

Eddie Jurak

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They had the Poole shot, followed by a quarter break. To start the quarter, the Warriors went Wiggins drive and shot from the paint (good), missed Wiggins 3, Poole drive and foul on White (2 FT, both good), missed Klay 3, then made Klay 3. Ime calls TO.

That feels like about the right time to make the TO call, at least defensively.

I don't think the problem was open 3s so much as an offense that had lost its rhythm from early in the 3rd. Threes weren't going down, and there were two bad Tatum TOs to start the 4th (a bad pass OOB and a travel).

Ime's TO timing last night was not anywhere near the top of their issues.
The Celtics offense scored 8 points in over 6 minutes a pace of under 50 per game. While GS scored 21 over the same span a pace of about 125. Ime had nothing worthwhile to say during that whole stretch other than after the Poole shot? During the whole year, he has seemed to have a much quicker trigger than that.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Maybe he's just burnt out in trying to get them to stick to a game plan for an entire quarter, or for constantly having to verbally slap them back to attention, or from seeing them make the same panicked mistakes he thought he'd coached out of them by now. He's probably just exasperated as this point, and who can blame him? It looks a lot like his team, who played so disciplined in the second half of the season and became the team to beat, has just lost the plot and is going to let this opportunity slip away due to youth, lack of maturity, ego, believing their own press clippings, straight-up boneheaded play, or some combination of the above. They're in the Finals and keep reverting to bad habits. What else can he say at this point? They either want it bad enough to listen to the guy who got them there and to play the way that got them there, or they don't. And that's not a heart thing either. If they listen to the coach and play their game, they win. I don't know why he's having such a hard time getting them to be laser focused at this point. Get the entire team a sports therapist and do a summit back in Boston. Get KG and Pierce in there to talk about ubuntu. Do something different for now and figure out what the biggest cause of it is during the off-season.
 

Bleedred

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I still have hope, but it sure looks like the veteran, championship team, is the more mentally tough team and that the upstarts, who may be great some day, are not quite there. There's just too much inconsistency on the green side of the ball, particularly on offense, which probably cannot survive a team like the GSW if they continually turn the ball over. They also go into funks on the offensive end for too long, and against teams like Miami and Milwaukee, they could survive them because teams had similar offensive issues so they wouldn't pull away. GSW has no such offensive flaws. This is damn close series, and it's not over, but last night I almost got the feeling that the Celtics seemed resigned to their fate.
 

lexrageorge

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Maybe he's just burnt out in trying to get them to stick to a game plan for an entire quarter, or for constantly having to verbally slap them back to attention, or from seeing them make the same panicked mistakes he thought he'd coached out of them by now. He's probably just exasperated as this point, and who can blame him? It looks a lot like his team, who played so disciplined in the second half of the season and became the team to beat, has just lost the plot and is going to let this opportunity slip away due to youth, lack of maturity, ego, believing their own press clippings, straight-up boneheaded play, or some combination of the above. They're in the Finals and keep reverting to bad habits. What else can he say at this point? They either want it bad enough to listen to the guy who got them there and to play the way that got them there, or they don't. And that's not a heart thing either. If they listen to the coach and play their game, they win. I don't know why he's having such a hard time getting them to be laser focused at this point. Get the entire team a sports therapist and do a summit back in Boston. Get KG and Pierce in there to talk about ubuntu. Do something different for now and figure out what the biggest cause of it is during the off-season.
I think we may be failing to give Golden State enough credit. They have the best player on the floor in Steph Curry (and it's really not close), and have assembled a really strong supporting cast of veterans and young players around him. They were the 2nd best team defensively during the season. They would probably beat just about any of the other Eastern Conference contenders in 5 games or less, except perhaps the Bucks with a healthy Middleton. The Heat certainly would have been eliminated by now.
 

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I think we may be failing to give Golden State enough credit. They have the best player on the floor in Steph Curry (and it's really not close), and have assembled a really strong supporting cast of veterans and young players around him. They were the 2nd best team defensively during the season. They would probably beat just about any of the other Eastern Conference contenders in 5 games or less, except perhaps the Bucks with a healthy Middleton. The Heat certainly would have been eliminated by now.
I'd agree. For a team that keeps getting described as smaller and older, they've done a great job of defending at the rim and forcing the C's to be a perimeter team.
 

128

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I think we may be failing to give Golden State enough credit. They have the best player on the floor in Steph Curry (and it's really not close), and have assembled a really strong supporting cast of veterans and young players around him. They were the 2nd best team defensively during the season. They would probably beat just about any of the other Eastern Conference contenders in 5 games or less, except perhaps the Bucks with a healthy Middleton. The Heat certainly would have been eliminated by now.
Yes. That's been a constant from many on this board since the start of the series, especially after the C's Game 1 win. Underestimate the Warriors at your own peril.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think we may be failing to give Golden State enough credit. They have the best player on the floor in Steph Curry (and it's really not close), and have assembled a really strong supporting cast of veterans and young players around him. They were the 2nd best team defensively during the season. They would probably beat just about any of the other Eastern Conference contenders in 5 games or less, except perhaps the Bucks with a healthy Middleton. The Heat certainly would have been eliminated by now.
Wiggins quietly had a super game in G4 when he was overshadowed by Curry and clearly their second best player on the floor. Last night was Wiggins coming out party……this was the Andrew Wiggins many of us saw coming out of college. The guy has such an awesome skillset and is finally putting it all together now that he escaped purgatory.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think we may be failing to give Golden State enough credit. They have the best player on the floor in Steph Curry (and it's really not close), and have assembled a really strong supporting cast of veterans and young players around him. They were the 2nd best team defensively during the season. They would probably beat just about any of the other Eastern Conference contenders in 5 games or less, except perhaps the Bucks with a healthy Middleton. The Heat certainly would have been eliminated by now.
Defensively this is probably true. GS is usually thought of as a great offensive team and that have not been that in this series. If you told me going in that GS was going to score 108, 107, 100, 107, 104 in the first 5 games I think it would have lied the Celtics chances better than I do now.

Still, there is a lot of poor offensive execution on the part of the Celtics.
 

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Defensively this is probably true. GS is usually thought of as a great offensive team and that have not been that in this series. If you told me going in that GS was going to score 108, 107, 100, 107, 104 in the first 5 games I think it would have lied the Celtics chances better than I do now.

Still, there is a lot of poor offensive execution on the part of the Celtics.
Just like MIL and MIA, GS is giving up open jumpers (and 3s), and initiating contact during drives to the paint. As been the case throughout the playoffs, the Cs win when (1) they're jumpers (especially 3s) are falling, which opens up paint and/or (2) they get out in transition before the defense can set. Unfortunately, the Cs are streaky when it comes to (1), and there's not much you can do about that. However, I do think that, especially after a good C defensive stop, they are not looking to get out in transition enough and tend to walk the ball up for a set play, which, again, if (1) is not working, is not great.
 

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Should maybe ait a day to calm down, but my feeling is Ime did an incredible job.
It took the Warriors and truly legendary coach player combo of Kerr/Curry to expose the island of misfit toys Ime took 5 minutes from a 3-1 lead in the finals.

The forward group, Rob who can't score unless he dunks it, who gets the ball stripped because he hasn't learned the high school skill of not bringing the ball down, and Al, Grant who either hits 3s or don't score. His points were two slow (by NBA standards) d first, team oriented guys Smart, and White.
He has two quite young stars that he meshed almost perfectly. Having Brown score early and Tatum as the trail guy half-court guy. This was team built for defence, and he was able to get them to score, which almost took them to a title.

On one hand, I am pessimistic about the roster, (Al is old, Rob is hurt, nagging worry Tatum is too soft) I have a lot of faith in this coach.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Should maybe ait a day to calm down, but my feeling is Ime did an incredible job.
It took the Warriors and truly legendary coach player combo of Kerr/Curry to expose the island of misfit toys Ime took 5 minutes from a 3-1 lead in the finals.

The forward group, Rob who can't score unless he dunks it, who gets the ball stripped because he hasn't learned the high school skill of not bringing the ball down, and Al, Grant who either hits 3s or don't score. His points were two slow (by NBA standards) d first, team oriented guys Smart, and White.
He has two quite young stars that he meshed almost perfectly. Having Brown score early and Tatum as the trail guy half-court guy. This was team built for defence, and he was able to get them to score, which almost took them to a title.

On one hand, I am pessimistic about the roster, (Al is old, Rob is hurt, nagging worry Tatum is too soft) I have a lot of faith in this coach.
Geez. That's a pretty one-sided harsh description of Rob. He has his issues, but if he is healthy he has the makings of a fantastic player. He has no offensive moves and does get stripped a lot, but he does a lot more than just blocks and dunks - even led the team in FT% this playoffs despite shooting 60% his first 3 seasons.

I agree about Ime though.
 

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Wiggins quietly had a super game in G4 when he was overshadowed by Curry and clearly their second best player on the floor. Last night was Wiggins coming out party……this was the Andrew Wiggins many of us saw coming out of college. The guy has such an awesome skillset and is finally putting it all together now that he escaped purgatory.
Whenever I think of Wiggins I think about how he was treated by Jimmy Butler while they were teammates in Minnesota. Funny how this works out. Jimmy might be looking at his fifth team soon. Zero rings. And Wiggins has won his first.
 

Mooch

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I love that within only a few posts, we have one person worried that Tatum is "soft" and someone else celebrating Wiggins (and rightfully so, he was great in the Finals.) for his "awesome skillset."

It was only a few years ago that Wiggins was called soft by his own teammate, one Jimmy Butler. That was his age 23 season, the same age that Tatum is now.

Just wanted to throw that out there for perspective.
 

lexrageorge

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I love that within only a few posts, we have one person worried that Tatum is "soft" and someone else celebrating Wiggins (and rightfully so, he was great in the Finals.) for his "awesome skillset."

It was only a few years ago that Wiggins was called soft by his own teammate, one Jimmy Butler. That was his age 23 season, the same age that Tatum is now.

Just wanted to throw that out there for perspective.
“Basketball people” were clamoring that Paul Pierce was soft after his disastrous “bandage game”.
 

reggiecleveland

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Geez. That's a pretty one-sided harsh description of Rob. He has his issues, but if he is healthy he has the makings of a fantastic player. He has no offensive moves and does get stripped a lot, but he does a lot more than just blocks and dunks - even led the team in FT% this playoffs despite shooting 60% his first 3 seasons.

I agree about Ime though.
I was talking about the offence. You think he is a fantastic offense player waiting to happen? He is the same age as Tatum. This unskilled guy is the result of years of intense work. Just how much more do yuu think he will improve considering he will need most of the off season off. He is a very valuable player because he changes the game on defence.

If healthy? This was by far his healthiest year ever. What are the odds he is ever healthy? kinda like "If Wily-mo stops striking out!"

TL is a poster child for today's unskilled forwards. You can switch on him and he can catch it six feet from the hoop vs a guard and probably kicks it out more than half the time. He is an awful scorer. The warriors were sending his guy at Tatum all series and when Tatum kicked it to him if he did catch it he got stripped way more than he got a shot off. He severely limits what you can do on O. When he is healthy he gets 3-5 lobs a game making him valuable, and he passes okay on the perimeter but his passing isn't as good as some think because he is unguarded most of the time and has a ton of space.

So the coach has to design stuff for one big that wants to stand at the 3pt line and another that cannot score if he catches the ball below 11 feet, and neither can post up, even against a guard. Not easy on the coach.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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I love that within only a few posts, we have one person worried that Tatum is "soft" and someone else celebrating Wiggins (and rightfully so, he was great in the Finals.) for his "awesome skillset."

It was only a few years ago that Wiggins was called soft by his own teammate, one Jimmy Butler. That was his age 23 season, the same age that Tatum is now.

Just wanted to throw that out there for perspective.
I haven’t read the thread so don’t know who would claim that but it’s ridiculous. It’s also ridiculous to read from FB friends ripping into Tatum for his “Horrible” Finals. Lol, this series ended in 4 without all of Tatum’s horrificness in running our offense, defending Curry and being asked to score when shaded by 2-3 defenders on every halfcourt possession. And no, he wasn’t hurt……he was human and got beat by one of the greatest players the game has ever seen.
 

reggiecleveland

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I haven’t read the thread so don’t know who would claim that but it’s ridiculous. It’s also ridiculous to read from FB friends ripping into Tatum for his “Horrible” Finals. Lol, this series ended in 4 without all of Tatum’s horrificness in running our offense, defending Curry and being asked to score when shaded by 2-3 defenders on every halfcourt possession. And no, he wasn’t hurt……he was human and got beat by one of the greatest players the game has ever seen.
Funny I think Tatum may end up like Wiggins starring as a #2.
Tatum is much more talented than Wiggins offensively though.
 

Mooch

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Funny I think Tatum may end up like Wiggins starring as a #2.
Tatum is much more talented than Wiggins offensively though.
He’s more talented in every phase offensively and probably about equal (at worst) defensively. And still hasn’t reached his full potential. Tatum’s floor would be a #2 only if he’s playing with a surefire Hall of Famer.
 

reggiecleveland

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He’s more talented in every phase offensively and probably about equal (at worst) defensively. And still hasn’t reached his full potential. Tatum’s floor would be a #2 only if he’s playing with a surefire Hall of Famer.
Man the Tatum hyperbole. Smh and lol

You forgot Tatum's mom was a faster runner than Wiggin's mom.

I guess we just hung a banner because we kept getting the matchup where our guy is better in every single way.

Equal at worst on D? Just no chance the guy who locked him up is better on d? Lol
 

Eddie Jurak

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I was talking about the offence. You think he is a fantastic offense player waiting to happen? He is the same age as Tatum. This unskilled guy is the result of years of intense work. Just how much more do yuu think he will improve considering he will need most of the off season off. He is a very valuable player because he changes the game on defence.
I didn't say offense. He doesn't have an offensive move really. But he's a good passer - I think as his career goes on there will be more and more offense running through him in the high post. I think he'll add a jump shot.
If healthy? This was by far his healthiest year ever. What are the odds he is ever healthy? kinda like "If Wily-mo stops striking out!"
Completely unfair. If he doesn't have the meniscus injury the Celtics are probably champions now.
Man the Tatum hyperbole. Smh and lol

You forgot Tatum's mom was a faster runner than Wiggin's mom.

I guess we just hung a banner because we kept getting the matchup where our guy is better in every single way.

Equal at worst on D? Just no chance the guy who locked him up is better on d? Lol
Wiggins has been in the league for years and this playoffs is the first time any of his teams has been markedly better with him on the floor as compared to off of it. Skepticism about him is reasonable, IMO.
 

reggiecleveland

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I didn't say offense. He doesn't have an offensive move really. But he's a good passer - I think as his career goes on there will be more and more offense running through him in the high post. I think he'll add a jump shot.
Completely unfair. If he doesn't have the meniscus injury the Celtics are probably champions now.
Wiggins has been in the league for years and this playoffs is the first time any of his teams has been markedly better with him on the floor as compared to off of it. Skepticism about him is reasonable, IMO.
Okay so you agree. i was only talking about him on offence. Now I expect this to go back and forth ten times, but I was only talking about offence and you jumped on me, Glad you realize agree with me and will not belabour this point.

Wait unfair? Holy Shit so your defence to my claim that he is rarely healthy is another "if he didn't get hurt" then they win. "Yeah well if he hadn't gotten hurt you couldn't say he gets hurt a lot" "If Wily-mo had connected there holy fuck would it have gone far!!!!" You can't debunk injury prone claims with "well he almost didn't get hurt." JFC the kid played his ass off while really hurt. The chances he is never the same as before the injury are as likely (meaning twice as likely) as he becomes the guy they run the O through.

WTF does (Wiggin's past) that have to with the current discussion? It was stated Tatum was better in every facet of the game than Wiggins, around 20 hours after Wiggins getting the better of Tatum in the three most important games of Tatum's life. Yes Tatum is younger etc, etc, but he was not better than Wiggins. Wiggins flat out kicked his ass when it mattered. Can Tatum even the score?, Maybe. Probably? But it is bullshit wishcasting to say he is better in every way right now.

Direct question none of your goal post moving.
Is Tatum better than Wiggins in every single aspect of the game on both sides of the ball? That was the claim. Better on O better on D.
 

kevmyster

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Direct question none of your goal post moving.
Is Tatum better than Wiggins in every single aspect of the game on both sides of the ball? That was the claim. Better on O better on D.
I’m always one to attack the post instead of the poster, so I’ve gotta say this question reflects the thoughts of someone who has likely never coached and for sure can’t dunk.

The simple answer is ‘yes’ and if you disagree, you’ve likely had your brain poisoned by maple syrup.
 

Mooch

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Man the Tatum hyperbole. Smh and lol

You forgot Tatum's mom was a faster runner than Wiggin's mom.

I guess we just hung a banner because we kept getting the matchup where our guy is better in every single way.

Equal at worst on D? Just no chance the guy who locked him up is better on d? Lol
I view players beyond a small sample size. You might think about looking into it.
 

reggiecleveland

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I’m always one to attack the post instead of the poster, so I’ve gotta say this question reflects the thoughts of someone who has likely never coached and for sure can’t dunk.

The simple answer is ‘yes’ and if you disagree, you’ve likely had your brain poisoned by maple syrup.
This is fair
 

Jimbodandy

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Gotta love Kev accusing a coach who can still dunk of being neither of those things.

He may be right about the maple syrup thing. I don't know reggie's breakfast plan.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Curry is better than Tatum but the delta is probably closer than some people think, even after this series.

Tatum had been a beast up until a few weeks ago. As far as the questions about his toughness, he answered them long ago for me. Like Steph before him, Tatum has to continue to adjust to the way teams successfully defend against him. Given his evolution to date, it seems like a fair bet.
 

lexrageorge

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Steph is better than Tatum, but Tatum is a better player than Wiggins. I don’t think either are debatable.

Wiggins had a good series against Tatum. But Wiggins is mostly a finished product. Tatum should learn from this and be able to better attack a tough 1-on-1 defender next time around. And better bench players would have helped immensely.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Trade Wiggins for Tatum and the Cs are swept easily.

Wiggins played great defense but that's because he didn't have to exert a lot of energy on offense. When he was the Guy in MIN, he didn't play any defense.

Also, Wiggins' offense was generally open 3Ps or taking advantages of mismatches - both generated by Curry's amazing gravity.

It's certainly a nice luxury to have a $30M player as your fourth best player.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I don't get the "TL has a lot of room for improvement" talk. He is what he is, unless you can name players of a similar age and skillset who completely blew up. I doubt anyone can. On top of that, the injuries will always be a concern and he's the type of player who will go to shit once his athleticism slips.

I mean, I guess if he becomes Lopez from 3. Becoming Theis from 3 probably hurts his game.

Also don't get the Tatum is overrated talk, unless people legit have him in the top 3-5. He's top 10.
 

128

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I don't get the "TL has a lot of room for improvement" talk. He is what he is, unless you can name players of a similar age and skillset who completely blew up. I doubt anyone can. On top of that, the injuries will always be a concern and he's the type of player who will go to shit once his athleticism slips.

I mean, I guess if he becomes Lopez from 3. Becoming Theis from 3 probably hurts his game.
Why Rob has never developed a jump hook is mystifying. With his length, it would be unstoppable, but he never even attempts that shot, as far as I can tell. We have, however, occasionally seen him take (and make) 15-foot face-up jumpers. It would be great to more of that from him, just to keep opposing defenses honest.
 

bankshot1

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I wouldn't over-react to the Celts losing to the Warriors in 6.

Forest for the trees.

IMO Celts were tired, benchless sloppy and at times clueless and still almost...

Tatum was a disapointment and was needed to do more than he could. He's a good passer, but he's not a point forward. Hopefully he toughens up and learns from this year. Bu making comps off this series, seems Forest for the trees.