Celtics in 18-19
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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All this talk about the depth helping them outscore the opponents bench is fun and all, but I’m here to see the Celtics absolutely wreck the other team’s best lineup.
I will be disappointed if the Celtics don’t regularly beat teams 110-88. Save the Brad end of game magic for the finals.
I will be disappointed if the Celtics don’t regularly beat teams 110-88. Save the Brad end of game magic for the finals.
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I hadn't noticed his wrong-footedness before (other than implicitly, noticing that he looked awkward).
I don't think I'll be able to un-see that now. But hey, if it works for him.
His release looks quicker than last year. At first I thought he was rushing, but it was similar in all his attempts.
As I mentioned upthread, Baynes's shot looks weird because although he's shooting right-handed, his left foot is out in front. (Most right-handed shooting players have their right foot out as it gives them more lift). For Baynes, I think he does it to keep his shoulders square to the basket.
In looking at his three pointers made last year, he had no such left foot forward thing going on. I think it may have been just some odd footwork this time around
Here's a video from practice last season. On the first two sets, it looks like his right foot seems slightly behind the left foot in most cases but admittedly that might just be the angle.
Now that I'm looking at the ones from the top of the key, looks like he is trying to put his right foot ahead.
I noticed that footwork the first time around but it didn’t seem like a big deal to me. It looks like he just wasn’t sure how far behind the line he was and didn’t want to step in front of his foot which was already planted. It ended up in an awkward position because, well, he’s a big awkward guy. I seriously doubt we’ll see that on a regular basis.
Theis is clearly the next big off the bench and he should see significant minutes with the Magic's frontcourt length but there is a greater than zero chance we see Bobby Williams in Theis' limited role where he's matched up against Bamba, a player of similar inexperience as to not be abused by a veterans experience. It would actually be a good matchup for him to get his feet wet.
Theis looks as bad as any Celtic has in the early going this year. He's been a foul machine who lacks every bit of the explosiveness he showed at time last year. Like Hayward, he is obviously still working his own way back.
The combination of Baynes being out and Theis being subpar is going to create some opportunities for other players, though not only Williams: Yabu, Ojeleye, and the regular bench guys (with more use of small lineups) are also in the mix.
The combination of Baynes being out and Theis being subpar is going to create some opportunities for other players, though not only Williams: Yabu, Ojeleye, and the regular bench guys (with more use of small lineups) are also in the mix.
Agreed. Theis has looked rusty/out of sync. We need those high energy minutes (boards and blocks) he gave us last season. Hopefully, he is just tentative post knee injury. Otherwise, expect Yabu to see minutes at the 5.
At least Daniel has an excuse. Jaylen Brown has me scratching my head. He has looked tentative and confused all pre-season and these 3 reg. season games. It's been a month of his sleepwalking on the court. It's not just his offense, he's been getting beat defensively. He's going to start getting questioned by reporters about his desire to fast last playoffs and if he has continued with that.
https://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2018/10/boston_celtics_jaylen_brown_sa_1.html
At least Daniel has an excuse. Jaylen Brown has me scratching my head. He has looked tentative and confused all pre-season and these 3 reg. season games. It's been a month of his sleepwalking on the court. It's not just his offense, he's been getting beat defensively. He's going to start getting questioned by reporters about his desire to fast last playoffs and if he has continued with that.
https://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2018/10/boston_celtics_jaylen_brown_sa_1.html
John Karalis and Jay King talked about this on the Locked on Celtics pod. Karalis, I think, made the point that if all of the Celtic regulars, Brown is maybe the least effective at creating his own shot in a 1 on 1 situation, and therefore the most dependent on the team running some semblance of an offense from which he can get some good looks. Since the Celtics’ offense in the early going has been a lot of “guys taking turns going 1 on 1”, Brown’s offense has suffered.
I don't know if he's least effective in creating his own shot but it seems to me that JB is least willing to pound the ball in an attempt to go one-on-one.
But y'all are looking in the wrong place IMO. The main culprit for BOS's "slow" start is Kyrie Irving. He's really been brutal thus far. The Cs are better on offense when he is off the court - on = 104.0 / off = 107.3, and the Cs have really been brutal on defense when he's on the court - on = 113.4 / off = 81.1.
I would guess almost all of that is due to the fact that he's shooting .417 from 2P and .143 from 3P land.
The problem is that when Kyrie is missing shots, not only does the other team get out and run but there is no balance to Kyrie's not-good defense.
I'm guessing that Kyrie going to have a week pretty soon where he makes everything to get his stats up to normal. Otherwise, well the alternative isn't pretty to think about.
BTW, interesting CelticsBlog article here on shot selection. Funny that Cs defense is predicated on giving up long 2s but Cs are 4th in the league at taking them. Breakdown (through 3 games):
- 11th in 3P shots; 21 in 3P% (35.1%);
- 31.8% of shots were at the rim = 25th; 29th in FG% at the rim (51.9%).
- 20.8% of shots classified as long mid-range, 4th highest in the league. 7th in FG% on these shots (45.6%)
- 16.4% FT rate is 26th in the league
- tied for 13th in assist percentage (23.7%) and 18th in passes made (284).
Last season Kyrie started: 8/17, 7/25, 7/17, 5/13, which is 37.5%, and throughout his career, October has been his worst shooting month.
This is related to the point K & K were making. As a team they aren’t creating high percentage looks for themselves. Kyrie’s struggles are definitely part of the story, and maybe some of the “creating good looks” involved playing off of Kyrie who is usually hitting shots.
After 3 games I'm not really using SSS as a guide. Just using the eye test on what I've seen from 4 pre-season + 3 regular season games.
My general point was Kyrie, Gordon, and Theis are all coming back from surgery. That set back was bound to create a slow start for all 3 of them. Kyrie being off was expected. Jaylen made a huge leap last season and was a key player in their deep play-off run. I wasn't looking for an additional leap but didn't expect to see a tentative player that looks lost. Maybe the addition of Gordon has thrown him off (he played with Kyrie plenty last season) but Hayward didn't play Sat. night so that excuse really doesn't fly.
Brown is staying within himself and not forcing, for the most part. On defense, he seems to be struggling to get around screens at the moment. That's correctable.
Overall the offense and defense are both fucking disasters. Both will improve with reps, and the offense should improve drastically when Kyrie comes back and replaces Imposter Kyrie.
Brown's game suffering a bit during this chaos is zero percent surprising.
Overall the offense and defense are both fucking disasters. Both will improve with reps, and the offense should improve drastically when Kyrie comes back and replaces Imposter Kyrie.
Brown's game suffering a bit during this chaos is zero percent surprising.
I mentioned in the pre-season thread about this team having too many chiefs and not enough Indians to where you have to have 1-2 players not fit into the game plan. It appears Jaylen is one to be affected by this......not being involved in the offense can absolutely affect a players ability to maximize his defensive ability by not being fully engaged in the flow of the game.
Someone posted earlier that Kyrie is historically a slow starter even when his season ends in June so it isn't a surprise he's struggling even more this year after his season ending in early March with a surgery that limited him in the summer even more than normal.
Regarding the former, it's certainly possible. Disorganization on offense will affect a secondary scorer like Brown. I'm not sure why they're so disorganized, but they definitely are. Maybe the abundance of primaries is a problem. Good point on the flow affecting defense. I'm less concerned about sorting out the defense, because Brad has a recent track record of getting the team to play together. Brown alone was a completely different player in year 2 than year 1. They'll be fine.
Regarding the latter, I'm not personally worried. It would be nice if Kyrie were himself, and I firmly believe that a dangerous Kyrie greases the skids for all. But that guy will appear, the offense and defense will both improve, and Brown will be more like Brown. All of this will happen soon enough.
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Yes, I don't see it getting better any time soon. Their timing is way off at both ends, and although Stevens praised their offensive ball movement last night, there are still too many possessions where someone tries to be the hero.
Last season we thought it would take 4-6 weeks to gel. That's even more difficult now---these 5 starters never really played together in games that matter until this season. And the work done last preseason was with a healthy Irving and Hayward and was with a different Tatum and Brown.
So you have that reintegration plus Irving and Hayward finding their sea legs. It'll come. This team will be something like 10-7 and then rip off a long winning streak.
We kinda know where we'll be by February, I think we're just a bit anxious to get there.
So you have that reintegration plus Irving and Hayward finding their sea legs. It'll come. This team will be something like 10-7 and then rip off a long winning streak.
We kinda know where we'll be by February, I think we're just a bit anxious to get there.
I kinda agree with Brad. There was some hero ball, sure, but the looks were there too. For example, Horford almost never takes bad threes that aren't in rhythm and he went 1-7 from deep. Tatum was 0-5 from 3 and at least two of those were back to back wide open looks in the same possession on a fast break that just didn't fall. Kyrie started attacking the rim more frequently in the second half and still had 0 FTA despite being knocked down a number of times. They were doing the right things more frequently - the results will come.
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Perhaps a bit of hyperbole. I am not saying the foul-calling has been even, but sometimes it does favor the Celtics. The start of the fourth quarter last night is one example. It was almost comical how quickly the Magic racked up fouls.
You're right, it did seem to even out a bit then, but Brown has been hammered on some drives and nothing, but then we see calls for moving picks and screens that seem iffy.
My eyes suck (we all have this problem), but the foul calls in our games seem even MORE player-specific this year (SSS).
Brown gets nothing ever. Baynes and Theis screens are called more often than not. Embiid can mug on screens, and Kawhi goes to the line for touch fouls (as an aside, it cracked me up how hard he complained about even more star treatment).
FWIW, it took IT forever to get that star treatment. Brown and Tatum need to keep building that resume and avoid being deterred. Theis and Baynes need to be coached into invisibility.
Obviously our team killed themselves last night, not the refs, but I have been channeling Johnny/Tommy more than usual so far too.
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When Kyrie went to the rim the Magic were straight up shoving him and there was nothing and I felt like exploding Tommy-style. Someone in the gt even made a joke about Kyrie going to a different team just so he can shoot free throws again. I know it's not why we lost but it was still noticeable as hell that our superstar couldn't buy an And-1 to save his life.
Why would you think this? They have the talent and the coach. It shoudn't surprise anyone if they get their shit together real quick
Orlando had 15 PF and went to the line 10 times.
Boston had 15 PF and went to the line 9 times.
Celtics attempted 40 3s, Magic 35.
Boston had 26 PF and went to the line 33 times.
NY had 25 PF and went to the line 27 times.
Celtics attempted 25 3s, Knicks 35.
Boston had 27 PF and went to the line 10 times.
Toronto had 19 PF and went to the line 19 times.
Celtics attempted 36 3s, Raptors 35.
Philly had 20 PF and went to the line 23 times.
Boston had 20 PF and went to the line 14 times.
Celtics attempted 37 3s, 76ers 26.
Maybe? Either way, outside of 1 game they haven't been getting to the FT line very much. In that 1 game they did, they took considerably less 3 point attempts.
The Raptors game looks fishy but the other games not so much.
Boston had 15 PF and went to the line 9 times.
Celtics attempted 40 3s, Magic 35.
Boston had 26 PF and went to the line 33 times.
NY had 25 PF and went to the line 27 times.
Celtics attempted 25 3s, Knicks 35.
Boston had 27 PF and went to the line 10 times.
Toronto had 19 PF and went to the line 19 times.
Celtics attempted 36 3s, Raptors 35.
Philly had 20 PF and went to the line 23 times.
Boston had 20 PF and went to the line 14 times.
Celtics attempted 37 3s, 76ers 26.
Maybe? Either way, outside of 1 game they haven't been getting to the FT line very much. In that 1 game they did, they took considerably less 3 point attempts.
The Raptors game looks fishy but the other games not so much.
Yeah, but that assumes each team is fouling, etc. at the same rate. We seemed to be called for some ticky-tack stuff (Hayward on the pick last night for example) while we've seen Brown and Irving get hit with nothing.
Some of it is Celtics-colored glasses of course.
Some of it is Celtics-colored glasses of course.
Some of us like to give Brad a hard time for not riding the refs. Worth keeping an eye on how the Lakers are treated over their next couple of games after Walton just called out the FT discrepancy in the Spurs game. Granted, anyone affiliated with the Lakers crying about calls is absurd...
It is hard reffing hoop. Anyone who has tried it will admit.
That said, some things are easier than others. The moving screens should be called consistently both ways. By whatever standard is used for "illegal". I love Brad, but he's nuts not to be in their ears for that shit. I get that he's trying to avoid giving his guys an excuse, but he needs to also defend his guys when the stars can Trent Brown our guards but Theis/Baynes get called. The Hayward call was ridiculous in particular, but it looked like nobody had a good look real time.
Same goes for the calls at the hoop when there's no traffic at all. Too many misses this year already.
Overall Brad should pick the occasional fight and keep people honest. Maybe eventually he will.
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Exactly this.
I would add that it feels like everybody read the season previews and showed up knowing a team that almost made the Finals without Kyrie and Hayward would automatically be better. Doesn't work that way. They need to figure out from scratch how to make this whole new lineup function. It's basically a brand new team. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing another big in the starting lineup with Al to set some screens to get some closer quality shots. Everything is either a 3 or a contested iso 2 right now. Brad will get this sorted but it'll take more time and effort than we were expecting.
As for the foul thing, I'm old enough to remember that when Doc was here he (and several players), would yell and whine about calls all game. Didn't really help.
Yep, McPickl and I have wanted a BIG to start since pre-season, especially against a big guy like Vucevic (who dominated the Celtics last night). Starting Baynes and sliding Al to the 4 is the right move on many levels. Have Hayward come off the bench while he is on 20-24 minute restriction.
Forcing a small ball lineup is making them very one dimensional on offense, physically dominated when they play D and a below average rebounding team. Not very surprising. This starting group will play better but I certainly wouldn't expect it to dominate like many think.
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What is not very surprising is that you keep forcing this false narrative about us being a poor rebounding team as well. We are 7th overall in Def RebRate and like last year, we are outrebounding our opponents overall. This "small ball" lineup is overmatched physically on defense to the tune of the NBA's 2nd best Defensive Efficiency to Denver with a huge gap to #3. Somehow we've managed this type of defense and rebounding success despise Baynes only playing 44 minutes in our 4 games thus far.
We're 3-4 games into the season and your taking defensive efficiency rankings seriously? You don't have to be a math major to realize what a bunch of nonsense that is...
Hope I'm wrong and this small ball starting lineup starts dominating as you've touted since this Summer.
Hope I'm wrong and this small ball starting lineup starts dominating as you've touted since this Summer.
I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see their issues as the kind that are easily correctible. They're systemic.They have played exactly one good half quarter of basketball in eight games: the last half of Q4 against Philadelphia when Stevens sat Kyrie down and Rozier came in and played well.
So let's say they had hit a few more more treys and won the Orlando game by 5 points. Or suppose Kyrie's corner trey had gone in at the end and the Celtics went on to win in overtime. Would anyone be impressed? Was anyone impressed when they eked out a win against the hapless Knicks? They ought to be beating teams like the Knicks and Magic by 25-30 points.
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1 game or 82....when your defense is 2nd in the league during that timeframe and someone posts how you've been physically dominated on defense it's worth mentioning. For the record, I've spoken extensively how this team could very well underachieve (not dominate) since the summer due to a number of factors. Most notably the number of players in contract years coupled with not having enough balls to keep everyone engaged.
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You're wrong. I have no idea how long it will take or exactly what they need to get on track. It could be as simple as shots starting to fall and guys settling back into a better rhythm as a result. It could be a bigger adjustment to figuring out how to keep the ball moving while players are looking to create for themselves. Either way, the issue isn't a system or systemic issue. We can pretty well know that because this is a virtually identical roster to last year. They were a perfectly good team with Kyrie a year ago, so the big change is just adding Hayward. That should be a small adjustment, not a seismic system change. And, they are running a similar offense to last year too. It just hasn't been working great.
As others have pointed out, the defense remains solid and there is little reason to think it is a concern.
As for winning games by 25-30 points, no one should be winning any category of games by that type of margin. They should have a few wins like that, but even bad teams play a lot of close games, even against good teams. For example, at one point last year that Warriors lost 7 of 10 including dropping a home game against the Kings.
Also, despite the current narrative, the Celtics played very well in their first 2 games. They blew out the Sixers despite poor shooting performancds from several key players and played Toronto (who are most likely the best team in the East and a true contender) reasonably close on the road despite poor shooting from pretty much everyone.
I'm not happy about the last 2 games either, but the sky isn't falling. This is still a top 2 team in the East and a top 5 team in the league.