Celtics Plan, Summer 2021

benhogan

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The window for the majority of NBA teams is 2-3 years. You are doing a major disservice to your organization if you are planning for some future beyond.
The Celtics aren't in the majority of NBA teams. Their two best players are 23 and 24yr old All-Stars. I'm sure they have a short-term plan (next 2 seasons) and a long-term plan (when Tatum's contract is up) that coexist/fit well together.
 

the moops

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OK, is there a sign and trade with Fournier going to a third team with no cap space (DAL if they resign Hardaway Jr), Nesmith, TL, future picks, something from the third team, for Beal out there? Seems like the Beal/Tatum thing needs to happen.

Roll into the season with Smart, Beal, Brown, Tatum, Horford and a ridiculous tax bill
 

DJnVa

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Some Celtics summer league and roster info

Romeo Langford, Payton Pritchard, Aaron Nesmith, Carsen Edwards, and Yam Madar are expected to join the Celtics’ summer league team in Las Vegas in the second week of August, according to sources. Grant and Rob Williams are not planning to play. If two-way player Tacko Fall remains with the organization through free agency, he would join the team as well. Fall has continued his summer training program at the team facility.

Waters likely moving on.

Tremont Waters, who is on a two-way deal, has been working out away from the organization back home in Connecticut and is looking for more of an opportunity to break into a rotation elsewhere in the NBA this upcoming season, per sources.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He definitely got noticed.
It’s the nature of the position at the end of the bench. It took Eddie House and Ish Smith 6-7 teams of pushing the envelope and sucking, while being noticed for their aggressiveness, to find their niche.
 

128

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It’s the nature of the position at the end of the bench. It took Eddie House and Ish Smith 6-7 teams of pushing the envelope and sucking, while being noticed for their aggressiveness, to find their niche.
I get what you're saying, but Waters, ostensibly a point guard, has usually appeared to be more interested in jacking up 3s than in setting up teammates or trying to run the offense. Even by the standards of most end-of-the-bench guys, his gotta-get-mine approach stood out, IMO, and he almost single-handedly cost the C's a win after they'd built up a huge lead on the Lakers.

Cleary, though, he has some skills, and I could see him growing into a legit NBA reserve. It's not likely to happen in Boston, though.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I get what you're saying, but Waters, ostensibly a point guard, has usually appeared to be more interested in jacking up 3s than in setting up teammates or trying to run the offense. Even by the standards of most end-of-the-bench guys, his gotta-get-mine approach stood out, IMO, and he almost single-handedly cost the C's a win after they'd built up a huge lead on the Lakers.

Cleary, though, he has some skills, and I could see him growing into a legit NBA reserve. It's not likely to happen in Boston, though.
Agreed fully on the last paragraph. He’s going to get some chances it’s imperative that the game slows down for him which typically doesn’t happen until mid to late 20’s for this type of player.
 

benhogan

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Thanks for posting. I guess it's not surprising that GW isn't playing but if I were him, I'd probably play even if it's unusual for 3rd year players to play. After all, if he played, he'd get more touches in a game that he gets in a week with the Cs. That can't hurt.
Grant is nuts not to suit up and at least work on his corner 3 in-game.

Or get a head start on pre-season and familiarize himself with Ime's sets
 

pjheff

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Grant is nuts not to suit up and at least work on his corner 3 in-game.
After his early 0/25 struggle, Grant has shot the 3-pointer adequately. He needs to work on his defense covering wings if he wants to expand his role beyond small ball 5.
 

lexrageorge

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Not sure how much Summer League action would help Grant Williams. His real work will come in training camp and in the preseason.
 

benhogan

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After his early 0/25 struggle, Grant has shot the 3-pointer adequately. He needs to work on his defense covering wings if he wants to expand his role beyond small ball 5.
Yep. He was great from 3 in the Bubble playoffs

37% from 3 last season, and 44.6% from corner 3s. Getting better

Scrappy, small-ball Center feels like his real shot to add value. If he can take it up to 40% from 3, draw the opposing BIG to the perimeter/corner, he could see minutes in certain matchups.

I like Grant but if the Celtics need GW to cover wings defensively for more than 10 seconds, then they're screwed.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Thanks for posting. I guess it's not surprising that GW isn't playing but if I were him, I'd probably play even if it's unusual for 3rd year players to play. After all, if he played, he'd get more touches in a game that he gets in a week with the Cs. That can't hurt.

Grant is nuts not to suit up and at least work on his corner 3 in-game.

Or get a head start on pre-season and familiarize himself with Ime's sets

Let’s keep in mind that ultimately it is the Celtics decision on whether GW plays in Vegas and not the player.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Thanks, I didn't know that. That being said, if GW really really really wanted to play, the Cs wouldn't stop him, would they?
Hard to tell but they probably wouldn’t allow a young players input on their decision. I know back when I played, decades ago, severs college players in the area weren’t allowed by their school to play in the pro-am summer league bc they didn’t want it to interfere with the training program that they had them on.

In GW’s case that could be a reason but IMO it is that Brad knows what he has and having GW play against inferior players where he could drop 30 in the paint isn’t going to benefit anyone.
 

Jakarta

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Waters likely moving on.
[/QUOTE]

Love the agent spin here. Looking for a greater opportunity than on a team currently with 0 point guards on the roster!
 

Koufax

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It's hilarious really. I suppose if he's looking outside the NBA he might get some traction.
 

radsoxfan

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In GW’s case that could be a reason but IMO it is that Brad knows what he has and having GW play against inferior players where he could drop 30 in the paint isn’t going to benefit anyone.
LOL the idea that Grant would be dropping 30 in the paint in Summer League. He would be physically outmatched in the paint there too.
 

HomeRunBaker

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LOL the idea that Grant would be dropping 30 in the paint in Summer League. He would be physically outmatched in the paint there too.
I’m super shocked you feel this way. SL lineups are loaded with physically undeveloped bigs and overall less talented players.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I'm not sure that the ragged play one sees in summer league is necessarily what Grant needs right now. And his 3 point shooting is fine: but 34% if you include his playoffs and his 0-25 start, 38% after the 0-25.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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IMO, GW needs minutes on the offensive end to do things other than stand in the corner and shoot 3s and he needs minutes on the defensive end to guard littler players (or even working on guarding big Bigs). Seems to me what he needs to work on is something that requires playing against competition (as opposed to just workouts) but what do I know?
 

lexrageorge

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IMO, GW needs minutes on the offensive end to do things other than stand in the corner and shoot 3s and he needs minutes on the defensive end to guard littler players (or even working on guarding big Bigs). Seems to me what he needs to work on is something that requires playing against competition (as opposed to just workouts) but what do I know?
His chance for playing time should come in the preseason. Hopefully the NBA institutes a full preseason schedule of 6 or so games.

As for Waters, he is undoubtedly looking for a better deal than the $84K plus the pro-rated vet min he would get as a 2-way player. There are some really bad rosters in the NBA, so I don't blame his agent for looking for an opportunity for him to occupy a spot on a 15-man roster someplace. The monetary delta is significant for a player who's likely to have a short career.
 

benhogan

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Jay King talking PG depth via FA options. Some excerpts from the very useful Athletic, definitely worth the subscription IMO

https://theathletic.com/2716277/2021/07/20/smart-backup-plan-five-point-guards-the-celtics-could-targets-this-summer-by-board/?source=dailyemail

1. TJ McConnell
McConnell is still coming off a strong season. He has never been an accurate outside shooter but still has found ways to be efficient. Even at 6-foot-1, he shot more like a big man from inside the arc last season, making 58.6 percent of his 2-point attempts. (For the sake of reference, Tristan Thompson shot 52.3 percent on 2-pointers.) By averaging 6.6 assists per game, McConnell narrowly missed leading the Pacers in that category, even while playing just 26 minutes per game. He led the whole league in steal rate.

2. Mills
Set to turn 33 before the next NBA season begins, he has not slowed down as a high-volume 3-point maker. Last season, he made 37.5 percent from deep while taking almost the same amount of 3-pointers per 100 possessions as Walker.
Obviously, Mills wouldn’t replace everything else Walker does offensively. But Mills flies around screens, commands a lot of attention and never stops moving without the ball. The Spurs’ offense through the years has regularly been better — and often much better — with Mills on the court, as his on-off history shows.


3. Neto
Over the years, Neto’s teams have typically defended much better with him in the lineup. He’s not a high-usage guy at the other end of the court, but he has shot the ball well throughout his career and has experience playing alongside big-time scorers.

4. Brad W
Wanamaker molded himself into a valuable bench player with the Celtics, but he is coming off a rough season where his 3-point shot abandoned him. He could be a target if Boston wants a tough third-string guard,

5. Ish Smith
If the Celtics want a change-of-pace guard now that Walker is gone, Smith could be an option. Even at age 33, he remains one of the NBA’s fastest men. He has flaws (just check his career true shooting percentage), but he can get into the paint against just about anyone and can be extremely difficult to guard once he gets going.


Other guards around the league projected in the Celtics price range by Hollinger’s BORD$ tool include Cory Joseph (whose contract next year is partially guaranteed), Ryan Arcidiacono, Saben Lee, Jordan McLaughlin, Lou Williams and Elfrid Payton, among others. Payne also was projected to fit into the taxpayer mid-level exception but has likely played himself into a greater contract with a strong regular season and postseason.

The Celtics don’t necessarily need to find another ballhandler in free agency. They could address their backcourt depth by trading for a guard like Tomas Satoransky or Delon Wright (either player would fit into the remaining piece of the Gordon Hayward exception)
 

radsoxfan

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I’m super shocked you feel this way. SL lineups are loaded with physically undeveloped bigs and overall less talented players.
I was partially joking... but Grant is incredibly overmatched physically in the NBA that even with the massive step down to Summer League, I'm not sure I see him dominating in the paint for 30 points a game. He might need to find a local YMCA for that.
 

128

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I was partially joking... but Grant is incredibly overmatched physically in the NBA that even with the massive step down to Summer League, I'm not sure I see him dominating in the paint for 30 points a game. He might need to find a local YMCA for that.
It still amazes me that Grant was a two-time SEC player of the year. We're not talking about some mid-major league, but the home of the Kentucky Wildcats, among others. I guess that speaks to the gulf separating the NBA and even top-level college ball.
 

radsoxfan

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It still amazes me that Grant was a two-time SEC player of the year. We're not talking about some mid-major league, but the home of the Kentucky Wildcats, among others. I guess that speaks to the gulf separating the NBA and even top-level college ball.
Me too!!

Year 2 in the NBA for him was odd in a lot of ways, who knows if it was the strange COVID year, being out of shape, some unknown personal issue, etc.

We can only hope it was just a massive blip and he looks like a different player this year.
 

cardiacs

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From my perspective, GWill needs better physical conditioning and focus to improve his game more than anything else. I hope he's working out hard this summer.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It still amazes me that Grant was a two-time SEC player of the year. We're not talking about some mid-major league, but the home of the Kentucky Wildcats, among others. I guess that speaks to the gulf separating the NBA and even top-level college ball.
It’s the physical mismatches he had in college, similar to what he’d have in SL, that work against him in the NBA. We’ve seen it time and time again.....recently in Boston with Sullinger as well.
 

128

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It’s the physical mismatches he had in college, similar to what he’d have in SL, that work against him in the NBA. We’ve seen it time and time again.....recently in Boston with Sullinger as well.
My memory isn't perfect, but I seem to recall that Sullinger's inability to keep his weight down was his biggest issue. He had more size and length than Grant. Sullinger was never going to be an NBA star, but I think his ceiling was considerably higher than Grant's is.
 

Jimbodandy

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My memory isn't perfect, but I seem to recall that Sullinger's inability to keep his weight down was his biggest issue. He had more size and length than Grant. Sullinger was never going to be an NBA star, but I think his ceiling was considerably higher than Grant's is.
They were both obvious tweeners, which is why they fell. Sully had better size for sure, but the game is different now too. He didn't last because he didn't work on his game and body. We will get a better read on Grant's work ethic when they're back.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Satoransky seems interesting on paper as a 10 minute a game guy. Anyone have an opinion on him?
Decent enough rotational guy. He’s been primarily a starter/3rd guard his entire career if he signs I’d expect it would be to replace one of Smart/Fournier as a 20+ mpg guy rather in a Nesmith/Edwards role.
 

HomeRunBaker

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They were both obvious tweeners, which is why they fell. Sully had better size for sure, but the game is different now too. He didn't last because he didn't work on his game and body. We will get a better read on Grant's work ethic when they're back.
It’s more than that though. They are both slow-twitch players in a fast-twitch (NBA) game who have physical limitations despite conditioning. They both were able to dominate in college due to their physical advantages as it is a much different game.
 

DJnVa

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It’s the physical mismatches he had in college, similar to what he’d have in SL, that work against him in the NBA. We’ve seen it time and time again.....recently in Boston with Sullinger as well.
Yeah--GW in the SL *might* be akin to those young kids we all played with that were physically larger and stronger than the other 14 year olds. They were never challenged physically. GW getting more of that isn't what he needs.
 

Jimbodandy

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It’s more than that though. They are both slow-twitch players in a fast-twitch (NBA) game who have physical limitations despite conditioning. They both were able to dominate in college due to their physical advantages as it is a much different game.
Agreed completely. Not just tweeners, but unathletic ones. Still kinda why they dropped and were available where we were picking. Those twitchier guys typically go higher because they have better ceiling

I think that guys like that can make a living in this league still if they work hard enough at developing their bodies and skills to fit the right role. Jury is out on Grant, but I think that Sullinger just never did. If anything he seemed to get slothier as time went on. And I loved the guy.

Yeah--GW in the SL *might* be akin to those young kids we all played with that were physically larger and stronger than the other 14 year olds. They were never challenged physically. GW getting more of that isn't what he needs.
Word. He should be working with trainers, not bullying 20yos


It may well be true.

Fortunately, the hole is undersized.
Lol.
 

the moops

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Man, this place sure is down on Grant. He had a bad year, no doubt, but we have seen sophomore slumps before. I still think he can be a serviceable 15-20 minute a night guy.
 

Bernie Carbohydrate

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Man, this place sure is down on Grant. He had a bad year, no doubt, but we have seen sophomore slumps before. I still think he can be a serviceable 15-20 minute a night guy.
I think the issue with Grant is that it hard to picture 15-20 minutes per game when he can thrive. He's a small-ball center who can only guard undersized 5s and slower 4s. So when does he play?

Look at the teams that finished ahead of the Celtics in the East:

Philly ran out Embiid (7-0) and Howard (6-10).
Brooklyn went with DeAndre Jordan (6-11) and Claxton (6-11). I guess if you call late Jeff Green (6-8) a center maybe Grant is a decent matchup?
The Bucks run out Lopez (7-0) and Portis (7-0). Grant is a good matchup for P.J. Tucker, but how often is Tucker going to play small-ball center on a team with Giannis?
Knicks? Robinson and Noel, both 7-0. Maybe Grant guards Taj Gibson (6-9) if the Knicks go small?
The Hawks play Capela (6-10) at center 33 MPG. His backup Okongwu (6-8), plays 12 minutes per game, so there's a potential Grant matchup.
The Heat--Adebayo (6-8)--give Grant credit here, he handled Bam fairly well in the bubble playoffs. Bam's backup Dedmon (7-0) plays 13MPG, so in this case, Grant is maybe more useful against the starter?

I guess you could give Grant Semi's minutes and he becomes your backup PF?

But Semi's minutes were sitting right there for the taking and Grant didn't make the case. I hope Grant improves to become serviceable, but we're down on him because last season the team gambled on Jabari Parker instead of trusting Grant with an expanded role. Jabari Parker, man.
 

benhogan

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Man, this place sure is down on Grant. He had a bad year, no doubt, but we have seen sophomore slumps before. I still think he can be a serviceable 15-20 minute a night guy.
yea, the Grant Williams Sophmore season criticism is fair.

After the bubble, some of us were bullish (guilty here). We saw a small minute/high-energy front-court defender that had a decent 3pt stroke after his rookie year. Strength tests, at the age of 20, had him stronger than 96% of NBA players (P3 - see attached). So there was optimism, he'd only get stronger/fitter.

Unfortunately, it was obvious from Day 1 last season, he showed up out of shape. His chunkiness was noted at the time. Maybe Brad has locked him in the gym all Summer and told him to not come out until preseason???

If GW shows up lean/great shape then he can be that "serviceable 15-20mpg player". He could eventually take it up a notch (22-25mpg player) if he gets ripped, drills 3s at 40+% and defends like his rookie season.

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/grant-williams-has-strong-chance-earn-playing-time-celtics
 

Swedgin

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Satoransky seems interesting on paper as a 10 minute a game guy. Anyone have an opinion on him?
Think he would be a great fit for this roster. He finishes well at the rim, shoots the 3 ok (and well from the corners) and has a higher asst% than anyone on the current roster. For those of concerned about point-guard Marcus and think the Jays are still limited as playmakers for others, he brings everything you want to the table.
 

JM3

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Not sure that "serviceable 15 minute per game guy" should be the upside you're going for with the 22nd pick - although I'm sure he can be that. He basically is that now. If people are good for 15 minutes, they play for more than 15 minutes.

Of course, it's probably better than taking Carsen 33rd...

I'm sure this has been beat to death here, but going from the 20th pick in 2019 (Thybulle drafted 20th/Brandon Clarke 21st) & turning that into 24 & 33 (drafting Grant 22nd when he was a poor man's Clarke), turning 24 (Ty Jerome) & Baynes' expiring $5.4m into the Bucks 2020 1st via the Suns, drafting Carsen with 33 & then using the #30 (BANE!) to get off Kanter's $5m & get what appears to be imaginary "future draft pick compensation" from the Grizzlies* is quite a run of yikes & explains a lot of the Celtics roster construction issues after Ainge did such a good job of accumulating the picks to begin with (#20 was from the Jeff Green trade to the Clippers).

*It looks like they are actually getting a '23 2nd with some crazy rules, but it might actually be a good 2nd?