Celtics-Raptors 2nd Round--Dethrone the Champs

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
4,206
I was surprised they didn't go at FVV more after he picked up three early fouls. Having him out and Smart on Lowry really limits the Raptors choices on offense.
Not that the Celtics are entirely different, but I do think Toronto's extra reliance on its starters makes them a bit more vulnerable to foul trouble. They should definitely keep doing what they are doing and driving to the basket.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
41,897
Not that the Celtics are entirely different, but I do think Toronto's extra reliance on its starters makes them a bit more vulnerable to foul trouble. They should definitely keep doing what they are doing and driving to the basket.
If there's no Ibaka tonight, Toronto will be in a lot of trouble if he Celtics are aggressive and the fouls start piling up.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,049
I wouldn't rule out Siakam/Anunoby being the backup and Toronto going smaller. They showed that some in game 5, and while it wasn't super effective it may be a better setup than playing Boucher a lot. I have to think Celts will hunt him on PnR if he gets big minutes
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,049
Good point—I’ll bet that is precisely what Brad would do.

He might get minutes against Boucher too if he’s the backup
 

CreightonGubanich

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,114
north shore, MA
Have we really seen Kanter play more against smaller lineups, though? Anecdotally, it seems like the opposite - Kanter plays more against bigger centers he can credibly defend one-on-one in the post. If there's been one constant in Enes Kanter's career, it's that he becomes unplayable in certain lineups, because what he gives back on the defensive end against smaller, quicker guys usurps what he's able to do against those guys offensively. Now, Siakam/OG at the 4 and 5 isn't exactly Durant and Draymond, but I think the principle still applies. Kanter's playable as a post defender, he's not playable defending quicker guys in space on the perimeter.

It sounds good - send our best offensive rebounder and post scorer down there to smash smaller lineups - but we've seen repeatedly that it doesn't work that way. Besides, if other teams want to go small, I think that plays into Boston's hands, whether they want Theis' defense or Grant Williams' shooting on the floor. It's a shame Gordon Hayward isn't healthy, because I think we'd see the Tatum-at-5 death lineup.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
22,066
Saskatoon Canada
Wonder if that wou,d get Kanter off the bench. I am scared of what would happen down the other end, but Kanter would abuse Siakam/Anunoby in the post
I'll step out of bounds, off topic here,. Shaq ruined the game.The way the game is reffed makes a guy like Kanter, a very good low pot scorer almost useless because he can't guard the ball on the perimeter. Refs still allow significant contact by shot blockers, post defenders, while treating guys on the perimeter like porcelain. The game has ended up with everyone playing the same way. But in today's game Kanter may get hit pretty hard, pushed out of the key etc, but he will get whistled if he puts his hand on a guy 15 feet from the hoop. The way they ref the perimeter should not change, but they should call more fouls on lightweight like Siakam when he is trying to push, get around a wide body. Shaq was unstoppable, and so much of the rule/reffing changes were to stop him from bulling his way to the hoop, but as a result there is really no reward to play a great low post guy anymore.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
4,206
I'm not too concerned with the C's on the offensive end, so to me, having Kanter take the shot vs. Brown/Kemba/Walker is at best a marginal upgrade in certain situations.

On the defensive end, however, there is a huge downgrade between Kanter and just about anyone else. I think the +/- favors going small.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
2,171
Cultural hub of the universe
I'm not too concerned with the C's on the offensive end, so to me, having Kanter take the shot vs. Brown/Kemba/Walker is at best a marginal upgrade in certain situations.

On the defensive end, however, there is a huge downgrade between Kanter and just about anyone else. I think the +/- favors going small.
I think keeping their shooters out of rhythm is key, so I keep Kanter stapled to the bench.
 

benhogan

Granite is his new binky
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
9,148
Santa Monica
Kanter's most effective use in this series is being a good teammate. He was dreadful defensively in his short minutes Game 3. Maybe we'll see him against a classic WC center?
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
27,304
Melrose, MA
Wow. What a disappointment the Celtics have been in this series. They sat on a 2 game lead and pissed it away.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
6,979
NYC
I know it stings now, but man, that game was an instant classic. If only that Smart three had fallen...
 

Sox Puppet

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2016
378
Credit to the Raptors for being tough as nails, they deserve it.

However, I have lost all respect for Nick Nurse after watching this series. Literally all he does is whine for foul calls the entire game. I get that he's trying to give his team an edge, but it's unseemly for the coach of a defending champion. He's basically James Harden in a polo shirt.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
2,969
Game 6 was squarely on Kemba. He was horrible on offense, where opposing PG Lowry outscored him 33-7. Kemba also got tortured all night on defense. Even with that, if he gets a call on his last second layup attempt, where there was contact on his shooting arm, Boston wins the game.

Brown and Tatum both got stripped in crunch time, with Tatum's leading to a three point play that turned the game. Top caliber players can't let that happen.

On to Cincinnati.
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
27,304
Melrose, MA
Credit to the Raptors for being tough as nails, they deserve it.

However, I have lost all respect for Nick Nurse after watching this series. Literally all he does is whine for foul calls the entire game. I get that he's trying to give his team an edge, but it's unseemly for the coach of a defending champion. He's basically James Harden in a polo shirt.
That and he puts his foot in bounds during live action. That should be a automatic technical and a hefty fine each and every time it happens. (I realize that lots of coaches do this and the league tolerates it, but it is still a fucking stupid thing to allow.
 

Mooch

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,784
Lowry was exhausted at the end. I wonder how his legs will be in game 7 after logging 53 high stress minutes. He’s no youngster.
 

OurF'ingCity

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 22, 2016
4,859
New York City
Game 6 was squarely on Kemba. He was horrible on offense, where opposing PG Lowry outscored him 33-7. Kemba also got tortured all night on defense. Even with that, if he gets a call on his last second layup attempt, where there was contact on his shooting arm, Boston wins the game.

Brown and Tatum both got stripped in crunch time, with Tatum's leading to a three point play that turned the game. Top caliber players can't let that happen.

On to Cincinnati.
Yep - don’t get me wrong, refs were atrocious and obviously doing everything in their power to get to a game 7, but if Kemba plays even decently well it’s probably not even that close at the end. You can’t have the guy we just gave a max contract to largely to be instant offense score 5 fucking points in a crucial playoff game, particularly when the team is missing another key contributor in Hayward. He just needs to be better, period.

(Also, regarding the refs, their shittiness is going to be completely swept under the rug - we’re already seeing this being billed as an “instant classic” when really it was a sloppily player and VERY sloppily reffed game, and I would have said that if the Celtics won.)
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
41,897
How can they think that was a good showcase for their league? That was horrible.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,049
I mean, there's a lot of evidence that Toronto can't win a game if it is called straight. But after acknowledging that reality--and the uneven playing field the Celts encountered tonight---a lot of great plays by Toronto. And a mixed bag from the Celtics. They looked scared when they were up in OT---guys weren't willing to pull the trigger. To me that was the biggest bummer of it all, they would have won in spite of the calls and Kemba's struggles if they had been willing to pull the trigger. Several key possessions ended with too much dribbling and one pass too many. Can't do that in Game 7.

As for Nurse, if the league were interested in fairness and player safety---neither of which it is---they'd ban him from game 7.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
3,704
Palo Alto
Tatum really choked in some big moments tonight. And Lowry, man that guy is good. Hit some huge shots, made some huge defensive plays. I think game 7 is going to be terrible basketball.
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
11,511
JT has been a disaster driving the lane after having seemingly cleaned that mess up. Really too bad.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 10, 2017
1,733
Jaylen has gotten so much better at only driving if there is an open lane, but Tatum trying to bully his way 1 on 2 just does not work.
 

JCizzle

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2006
12,156
It occurred under two minutes left, I believe, so they will at least need to acknowledge it? Or does that report only happen for the 2OT last two min?
 
Aug 20, 2017
2,085
Portland
He didn’t touch a player or the ball, so I’m surethey’ll do nothing.

Or perhaps fine him a parking ticket and send a sternly worded reprimand when no one is paying attention.
But we all know the refs pay attentions. No matter what anyone says, they were in the bag for the raptors tonight. I bet they do whatever they can to prove they aren't in game 7. Celtics win by 10 or i give 50 to the Jimmy fund.
 

Light-Tower-Power

ask me about My Pillow
SoSH Member
Jun 14, 2013
10,300
Nashua, NH
It occurred under two minutes left, I believe, so they will at least need to acknowledge it? Or does that report only happen for the 2OT last two min?
This seems potentially and unfortunately naive.

I am still utterly dumbfounded that 0 out of 3 officials saw that in real time. But that’s probably naive on my part.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
3,552
It occurred under two minutes left, I believe, so they will at least need to acknowledge it? Or does that report only happen for the 2OT last two min?
The l2m is the last two of regulation and the entirety of overtime, but it skips stuff all the time. Toss up if this makes it.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
38,957
Biggest concern that has been exposed here is basically that the Celtics have looked terrible and totally lost their composure late in the close games. I don’t like how this stacks up in comparison to a Miami team that is super confident right now, if they can even get there. Feels like blowout or bust the way this series has gone.

Toronto has some particular characteristics that make them tough to score on if you don’t move the ball, but when it gets tight they ballwatch and force shit. Bad combo when they aren’t shooting well enough to overcome it anyway.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
34,310
Biggest concern that has been exposed here is basically that the Celtics have looked terrible and totally lost their composure late in the close games. I don’t like how this stacks up in comparison to a Miami team that is super confident right now, if they can even get there. Feels like blowout or bust the way this series has gone.

Toronto has some particular characteristics that make them tough to score on if you don’t move the ball, but when it gets tight they ballwatch and force shit. Bad combo when they aren’t shooting well enough to overcome it anyway.
I am curious what you are referring to. We can agree to disagree about the end of game three because regardless of where you come down on the defense, Lowry made a brilliant pass across the court and OG hit the shot. What happened with composure there?

As for today, Boston overcame a four point deficit with 4:24 left in the game, against probably the best defense they saw all season, all while holding Toronto scoreless.

In OT1, the Celtics tied the game on Brown's FTs while holding Toronto scoreless for the last 92 seconds to force OT2.

I mean, they did lots of things wrong but so too did Toronto.
 

dhellers

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2005
2,114
Silver Spring, Maryland
I do wonder why coaches get SO TIGHT on their OT rotations.
For example: with Kemba having a terrible game, and totally fatigued hence unlikely to find the switch: perhaps a fresh Wannamaker would be better? Why no try it for a minute or two?
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
38,957
I am curious what you are referring to. We can agree to disagree about the end of game three because regardless of where you come down on the defense, Lowry made a brilliant pass across the court and OG hit the shot. What happened with composure there?

As for today, Boston overcame a four point deficit with 4:24 left in the game, against probably the best defense they saw all season, all while holding Toronto scoreless.

In OT1, the Celtics tied the game on Brown's FTs while holding Toronto scoreless for the last 92 seconds to force OT2.

I mean, they did lots of things wrong but so too did Toronto.
It's easy to play great defense when the offense becomes one guy dribbling into the teeth of it with nobody else moving and no real plan.

After they tied it tonight in Q4, they had these possessions in the last two minutes with zero ball movement:
Kemba misses a forced jumper (hero ball)
Tatum throws it to nobody after getting lost on the dribble (hero ball)
Kemba forces a layup (hero ball)

2nd OT, up 4, they go:
Jaylen one man fast break to nowhere, stripped (hero ball)
Tatum 2018 style long-2 with a hand in his face, missed (hero ball)
Jaylen backing down Lowry in the post for god knows why, again stripped (hero ball)
Theis alleyoop (ball movement!)
Marcus three (ball movement!)
Theis alleyoop (ball movement!)
Tatum TO leading to the and-1 (hero ball), after which it is a two possession game until the final desperation heave.

At least in game 3 they got shots up on their late possessions but still gave away their chance to make it a two possession game with Tatum forcing a contested long 2.

Where are the good possessions consistently coming from late in close games? They nearly pissed away game 2 also.The thing Toronto has done wrong have been more like missing shots because they are smaller than our players. Our wrong things have been forgetting you have teammates, having no awareness of the game situation, and thinking the goal of basketball is to see who can stay the most still on offense.

I guess the good news is when they have made adjustments and pressed hard all game, they have won blowouts. But they have to play two other great teams to win the title, and the games will be close more often than not. They haven't earned anybody's trust in these situations.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
19,058
Biggest concern that has been exposed here is basically that the Celtics have looked terrible and totally lost their composure late in the close games. I don’t like how this stacks up in comparison to a Miami team that is super confident right now, if they can even get there. Feels like blowout or bust the way this series has gone.

Toronto has some particular characteristics that make them tough to score on if you don’t move the ball, but when it gets tight they ballwatch and force shit. Bad combo when they aren’t shooting well enough to overcome it anyway.
Both halfcourt defenses are worlds ahead of the 4Q offenses once they clamp down. One team didn’t score a single 4Q point past the 4:24 mark with 0-6 shooting and 2 turnovers down the stretch.......and it wasn’t the Celtics.
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
7,082
Both halfcourt defenses are worlds ahead of the 4Q offenses once they clamp down. One team didn’t score a single 4Q point past the 4:24 mark with 0-6 shooting and 2 turnovers down the stretch.......and it wasn’t the Celtics.
But that doesn't fit his narrative
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
35,808
I was initially incredibly angry about this game but have calmed down a bit. Game 3 still looms so large but we have one game to right the ship. If we lose Game 7, I’ll probably forget about this Game 6 quickly and dwell on that damn inbounds play.

Among the positives for Game 6, if there are any, is that Jaylen has his confidence back. He didn’t shoot well but Game 3 is a distant memory for him. Marcus Smart was also tremendous. It’s incredible to me that the Jay’s and Kemba shoot 35% on big volume, we had several shitty calls go against us, Lowry played out of his mind, and we still were a play away from winning. As we’ve seen all series, when the Celtics play well, they are simply flat out better.

Now, for my beefs:

1. Kemba. Fucking A. 5 points in a 2OT game is an absolute disgrace. He absolutely was fouled at the end but he submitted another terrible game for us at a crucial moment. Meanwhile, Lowry went 33/8/6 with 1 TO in 53 minutes. We are positively screwed in Game 7 if Bad Kemba shows up. This was an absolutely pathetic performance and he simply must be better or we’re going home.

2. Tatum. Filled up the stat sheet but his poor 1H is partly why that first half lead shriveled. Tatum and Kemba are supposed to be the guys for us and I must admit that my confidence in both of them delivering has been shaken a bit. Turnovers killed us with Tatum. You want to be considered a star? Then step up. Here’s your moment.

3. 3 PT defense. Neither team excelled here but Celtics gave up so many backbreaking 3’s towards the end. Simply can’t leave so many guys open. Give up the 2, if needed.

4. Refs. I mean...c’mon. So much here to criticize. Losing sucks regardless but losing when you know refs played a crucial role REALLY sucks. I don’t want to be talking about these assholes after Game 7 no matter what the outcome is. Sick of this shitty officiating ruining the product.

5. Brad. Get your fucking team ready to play the 3rd quarter for once. -37 for the series is a huge issue. Brad is a very good coach but these 3rd quarter issues have got to stop or we’ll be toast.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
25,021
Hingham, MA
I think the Celts have been outscored in the 3Q of every game this series and are like -40 to -50 in total that quarter. Why does that happen every game??
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
27,304
Melrose, MA
I think the Celts have been outscored in the 3Q of every game this series and are like -40 to -50 in total that quarter. Why does that happen every game??
The Celtics don't have the instinct to put teams away. They followed up their great start to the series by letting up on the pressure and playing an even game that they ultimately lost on the game ending heartbreaker. Then they basically mailed one in allowing Toronto to claw back into it. Then, finally worried with the series at 2-2, they fucking showed up and kicked the living crap out of Toronto from wire to wire. Then they immediately reverted back into thev "we've got this" mindset and let Toronto hang close and ultimately win.

They have a great team but not one that has figured out how to do what it takes to win.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
1,651
Just because Stevens and the players aren't bitching publicly about the officiating doesn't mean the C's won't raise the issue with the NBA. There's no way Danny, watching that at home, is going to sit back and say nothing. Not sure what the behind-the-scenes process is, but I'd be shocked if the C's don't make their case.
 

CoffeeNerdness

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2012
4,740
I think the Celts have been outscored in the 3Q of every game this series and are like -40 to -50 in total that quarter. Why does that happen every game??
I don't know if he was right but Breen said they've lost every third quarter in the entire playoffs. Pray they don't go into half tomorrow night with a deficit.