Celtics sign Lonnie Walker IV

luckiestman

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What’s someone at this level making if they take their talents to {insert international league}?
 

benhogan

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I'm not sure which NBA teams have need / roster spot / cap space to sign him but any NBA team who wanted him could have signed him this summer. I can't think of anything that would have really changed this calculus. There are a fair # of vet FAs available - LW4, Brissy, Fultz, Justim Holiday, Danael House, RoCo, Crowder, Shamet (injured), TJ Warren, etc. - not sure any of these are going to get a contract until injuries start to happen.

BTW, if LW4 goes to Maine, you'll be able to watch him in Mazzulla-ball-lite. :)
Thats fair. The NYK have a spot now that they released Shamet (injured).

Not sure about CLE roster situation now that Strus is out for 6 weeks

So a few injuries have slightly altered the equation from 6 weeks ago
 

Euclis20

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I'm not sure which NBA teams have need / roster spot / cap space to sign him but any NBA team who wanted him could have signed him this summer. I can't think of anything that would have really changed this calculus. There are a fair # of vet FAs available - LW4, Brissy, Fultz, Justim Holiday, Danael House, RoCo, Crowder, Shamet (injured), TJ Warren, etc. - not sure any of these are going to get a contract until injuries start to happen.

BTW, if LW4 goes to Maine, you'll be able to watch him in Mazzulla-ball-lite. :)
Yup even if I think Walker could play a real role on the current Celtics, the reality is that no one bothered picking him up until we did in the last possible minute (though I do think he's a much better player in 2024 than anyone else on that list). Even if I think he'd be the 2nd best guard off the bench, on our current roster with the uncertainty at center and the versatility of our core, that means he'd be either the 11th or 12th most important player in the playoffs, depending on how bullish one is on Walsh (and if Walsh pops to the point where he's getting regular rotation minutes in games that matter, that bumps Walker further down the depth chart as Walsh could take some of JB's minutes at forward while JB spends more time at guard).

I'm mostly disappointed because I think the team either chose or was forced to have Springer on the roster over Walker, and I really, really don't think much of Springer. God this has been a boring last couple of months.
 

InstaFace

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What’s someone at this level making if they take their talents to {insert international league}?
Varies considerably. But there's only 1-2 dozen players in Europe / China making as much as the NBA veteran minimum. Shane Larkin was one of them for a while, still might be. Best public source is here.
 

InstaFace

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I'm mostly disappointed because I think the team either chose or was forced to have Springer on the roster over Walker, and I really, really don't think much of Springer. God this has been a boring last couple of months.
Medieval theologians : arguing about Angels that can fit on the head of a pin :: contemporary Celtics fans : arguing about the 14th and (if even used) 15th spots on the roster
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Thats fair. The NYK have a spot now that they released Shamet (injured).

Not sure about CLE roster situation now that Strus is out for 6 weeks

So a few injuries have slightly altered the equation from 6 weeks ago
CLE is in luxury tax land; have 14 roster spots already filled; and probably see Sam Merrill and Ty Jerome as sufficient shooting off the bench. I doubt they fill the 15th roster spot while Strus is recuperating. https://www.fearthesword.com/24168319/cavaliers-roster-salaries-cap-space-draft-picks

As I mentioned in Wild-KAT thread, Shams reported that NYK is waiting for time being to see whether Shamet can be back quickly. Every day the Shamet doesn't sign saves them $15K against the salary cap I understand. If Shamet looks like he'll be back relatively soon, I think he'll get signed. If not, then maybe NYK signs LW4, although it's been reported that some in the front office wanted TJ Warren.

Two other teams that have been mentioned are LAL and MIA. I'm not looking up their rosters/cap situation but does LW4 offer anything Dalton Knecht and Duncan Robinson don't do?

edit: ran into this article - https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nba/miami-heat/article294149454.html - so cross MIA off the list. They have 14 roster spots filled; have Nassir Little in the same situation as LW4; and are $1.6M under 2nd apron. There is no way they are signing LW4 to go over 2nd apron.
 
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benhogan

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CLE is in luxury tax land; have 14 roster spots already filled; and probably see Sam Merrill and Ty Jerome as sufficient shooting off the bench. I doubt they fill the 15th roster spot while Strus is recuperating. https://www.fearthesword.com/24168319/cavaliers-roster-salaries-cap-space-draft-picks

As I mentioned in Wild-KAT thread, Shams reported that NYK is waiting for time being to see whether Shamet can be back quickly. Every day the Shamet doesn't sign saves them $15K against the salary cap I understand. If Shamet looks like he'll be back relatively soon, I think he'll get signed. If not, then maybe NYK signs LW4, although it's been reported that some in the front office wanted TJ Warren.

Two other teams that have been mentioned are LAL and MIA. I'm not looking up their rosters/cap situation but does LW4 offer anything Dalton Knecht and Duncan Robinson don't do?
Yea it really comes down to #14-15 roster dynamics for teams more than "Landry/Strus being injured" or even Duncan/Knecht situations (both are rotational players). A lot of teams want young/development guys for 14 or 15. Then good teams, like Boston, want to leave #15 open to save money & can use the 3 two-way spots to patch the roster in-season.

I originally thought the Walker signing was a nothing-burger (no room on the 14-man), but then I heard he worked with White/Jrue during the sumer & liked what he said.

At the end of the day, we were originally correct; he's just a guy that hopefully ends up in Maine as roster insurance.
 

128

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Pardon my unfamiliarity with today's rules, but if LW goes down to Maine, can the C's bring him up to the varsity later in the season without incurring such stiff financial penalties?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Pardon my unfamiliarity with today's rules, but if LW goes down to Maine, can the C's bring him up to the varsity later in the season without incurring such stiff financial penalties?
LW4 is a free agent so there is no "bringing him up" if he chooses to go ME. However, as an affiliated player, it's my understanding that if the Cs sign him from Maine, they have to give him a full contract. So to answer your first question, yes the Cs can sign LW4 out of ME.

BOS can sign him at any time but one of the big issues with signing him now is that the contract would have pushed BOS into the 4.25X tax (they are currently at the 3.75X level). So to answer your second question, no the Cs cannot sign him without incurring a good bit more luxury tax.

Finally, according to this - https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/05/hoops-rumors-glossary-minimum-salary-exception-4.html - minimum salaries are pro rated if they are signed during the season so BOS has every incentive to delay the signing as long as they can. I don't know how long BOS would have to wait to not get bumped into the 4.25X level (I'm sure someone else does if you really want to know).

Still, I think the most likely path to LW4 being in BOS is that Springer doesn't play very well and gets dumped at the trade deadline (his contract no longer serving a purpose) and then the Cs signing LW4 - that would probably be an overall improvement plus a savings a money (though it might cost a 2nd round draft pick to get rid of Springer).
 

128

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LW4 is a free agent so there is no "bringing him up" if he chooses to go ME. However, as an affiliated player, it's my understanding that if the Cs sign him from Maine, they have to give him a full contract. So to answer your first question, yes the Cs can sign LW4 out of ME.

BOS can sign him at any time but one of the big issues with signing him now is that the contract would have pushed BOS into the 4.25X tax (they are currently at the 3.75X level). So to answer your second question, no the Cs cannot sign him without incurring a good bit more luxury tax.

Finally, according to this - https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/05/hoops-rumors-glossary-minimum-salary-exception-4.html - minimum salaries are pro rated if they are signed during the season so BOS has every incentive to delay the signing as long as they can. I don't know how long BOS would have to wait to not get bumped into the 4.25X level (I'm sure someone else does if you really want to know).

Still, I think the most likely path to LW4 being in BOS is that Springer doesn't play very well and gets dumped at the trade deadline (his contract no longer serving a purpose) and then the Cs signing LW4 - that would probably be an overall improvement plus a savings a money (though it might cost a 2nd round draft pick to get rid of Springer).
Thanks. That makes sense. I guess we'll if there's demand for LW4 elsewhere in the league.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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lovegtm

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Initial Maine training camp roster is out and LW4 is not on it.

You know who could really use LW4? The Nuggets. However, DEN (unlike BOS) looks like they have the maximum 15 signed contracts (+ 3 two-ways) so they'd have to cut someone to sign him. (Checking In On Roster Situations Around The NBA | Hoops Rumors.) (They do have over $5M in salary space under the 2nd apron, where they are hard-capped.)

View: https://twitter.com/NoaDalzell/status/1850264076779192508
Walker would be great in Denver, and it's bizarre they didn't sign him in the first place. The Nuggets really, really need some offensive help.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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TomRicardo

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Walker would be great in Denver, and it's bizarre they didn't sign him in the first place. The Nuggets really, really need some offensive help.
Right or not Booth wants to force to Malone to use Watson, Strawther, and Braun.
 

Imbricus

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Seems so weird to me that he can't find a minimum deal somewhere in the NBA. He is so much better than so many 11-15 players on many teams
This is where I'm at too. Kind of puzzled he winds up overseas. He doesn't have a bad rep does he? Seems like a decent guy.
 

InstaFace

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Maybe they made him a better offer than he got locally. He would need a full NBA contract in order to be sure of having a better situation than going to Lithuania. Maybe they broke the bank for him.
 

TripleOT

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This is an example of the very punitive tax structure under the new players agreement. A young veteran who can put up a point every two minutes on relatively good efficiency should have a spot somewhere in this league. One would think that a team who salary structure is top-heavy with max guys would want someone like this on a minimum deal, but owners just doesn’t want to pay the penalty, and not just in Boston
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Seems so weird to me that he can't find a minimum deal somewhere in the NBA. He is so much better than so many 11-15 players on many teams
It is weird but I think part of it is structural. There was a lot of shooting on the market this summer - Top 15 free agent shooting guards available in 2024 NBA offseason - and I guess Walker was the odd man out. But I think a lot of teams are realizing that circulating minimum salary guys through a team isn't a great way to build and are taking DEN's approach of really trying to build through the draft.

MIL seems an example of the opposite but as Malik Beasley showed last year (and Trent may show this year) - sign a guy on a one-year minimum "prove it" deal, and if the player does well, there's almost no chance of resigning him (see here - NBA Free Agency: Malik Beasley has likely to leave Milwaukee Bucks - Brew Hoop - for the constraints on MIL resigning Beasley) or if he doesn't play well, what's the point?

PHO I'm sure will be in the same position with Tyrus Jones at the end of this season but they are in the ultimate GFIN position.
 

benhogan

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MIL seems an example of the opposite but as Malik Beasley showed last year (and Trent may show this year) - sign a guy on a one-year minimum "prove it" deal, and if the player does well, there's almost no chance of resigning him (see here - NBA Free Agency: Malik Beasley has likely to leave Milwaukee Bucks - Brew Hoop - for the constraints on MIL resigning Beasley) or if he doesn't play well, what's the point?

PHO I'm sure will be in the same position with Tyrus Jones at the end of this season but they are in the ultimate GFIN position.
Yeah this sounds correct.

Is it better for the Celtics to
A. develop Jordan by giving him 10/11th man minutes or
B. the slight uptick of giving those minutes to Walker

I guess Brad's answer is A since the Celtics have control of Walsh's cheap seasons & his ceiling may be higher.

Are most teams using #12-14 for cheap development players?
With the idea that #15 can be covered by 3 players on 2-way contracts.
 

lovegtm

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Maybe they made him a better offer than he got locally. He would need a full NBA contract in order to be sure of having a better situation than going to Lithuania. Maybe they broke the bank for him.
This is sort of the point though: it's bizarre to watch the bullshit that (eg) Denver throws out in their 2nd units and then see LWIV not able to get a full contract.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This is sort of the point though: it's bizarre to watch the bullshit that (eg) Denver throws out in their 2nd units and then see LWIV not able to get a full contract.
Booth telegraphed his plan a few years ago in this KOC article: Inside the Denver Nuggets’ Plan to Build a Dynasty - The Ringer .

One of Booth’s biggest fears is becoming a team with “no outs,” made up entirely of mercenary vets. Then the vets leave and the team has to go find replacements. “That’s another reason why we got three rookies,” Booth explained. “To get some guys that know how to play, and they’re under control.”

and
The Nuggets are making a calculated gamble of their own that hinges on the development of their young talent; they need them to help in the short term and hopefully become fixtures in the future. Booth’s philosophy is clear: It’s better to invest in the future, even if it comes at the expense of immediate glory. “I just want dudes that we try to develop, and it’s sustainable,” Booth said. “If it costs us the chance to win a championship this year, so be it. It’s worth the investment. It’s more about winning three out of six, three out of seven, four out of eight than it is about trying to go back-to-back.”
 

Imbricus

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The Nuggets are making a calculated gamble of their own that hinges on the development of their young talent; they need them to help in the short term and hopefully become fixtures in the future. Booth’s philosophy is clear: It’s better to invest in the future, even if it comes at the expense of immediate glory. “I just want dudes that we try to develop, and it’s sustainable,” Booth said. “If it costs us the chance to win a championship this year, so be it. It’s worth the investment. It’s more about winning three out of six, three out of seven, four out of eight than it is about trying to go back-to-back.”
Three out of six? Four out of eight? What's this guy smoking? I'd rather gamble on back to back. It's very, very hard to reach the NBA finals. You lose a couple of those "mercenary vets" while the rookies are slowly developing, while your existing stars get a few years older, and suddenly you're looking at one out of six or one out of eight -- the one you already won.
 

joe dokes

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Three out of six? Four out of eight? What's this guy smoking? I'd rather gamble on back to back. It's very, very hard to reach the NBA finals. You lose a couple of those "mercenary vets" while the rookies are slowly developing, while your existing stars get a few years older, and suddenly you're looking at one out of six or one out of eight -- the one you already won.
Seems to me that a lot of GMs overestimate players' primes.
I think 3 of 5, 4 of 8, may be infinitely harder for most teams than back2back.

Its a different era, but after the Lakers beat the Celtics in 87, Bob Ryan wrote that Bird's shot at back to backs was over. Bird was 31, but not yet obviously banged up, and Ryan was right.

And now, as the league gets younger and more athletic, the "long-term foundation" approach seems even less likely to succeed if older players are involved at the top of the pyramid.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Three out of six? Four out of eight? What's this guy smoking? I'd rather gamble on back to back. It's very, very hard to reach the NBA finals. You lose a couple of those "mercenary vets" while the rookies are slowly developing, while your existing stars get a few years older, and suddenly you're looking at one out of six or one out of eight -- the one you already won.
Easy to say from behind a keyboard when it isn’t your 7-figure a year job at stake. Like many GM’s, a large portion of their business plan is to protect their own self-interests (aka: their job)….especially after already winning a Title in Denver. All Booth has to do is win 50 games a year and a playoff series during Jokic’s prime for his job to remain safe. If he can develop some young players to remain competitive after Jokic leaves or have a solid rebuilding base then it’s even better for his long term job security.
 

HomeRunBaker

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My son loves those balls. I, who grew up with the leather balls hate them.
I liked them I think bc back then we didn’t have much consistency with the leather balls. Each one was different depending on how worn it was. The composites had a better grip at least that’s how I felt.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I am nearly certain that the FIBA balls are also made from leather
It’s a much different feel at least they used to be and appeared to be lighter but it really wasn’t. Hard to describe. The seams were aligned differently as well which is a big deal for a shooter too.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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HomeRunBaker

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The Molten BG5000 is leather from everything I can glean from the web.
https://www.molten.co.jp/sports/en/basketball/bg5000/
It may technically be leather but it is a different feel.
Biggest difference appears to be 12 panels versus 8 for NBA. From what I’m seeing on web, NBA players think it is lighter. The site you linked also mentions that it has a new surface so that’s probably feels pretty strange for NBA players at first touch.
Yes for sure. Adjusting to the seams are a factor as well as getting past the mental aspect that the ball fees lighter but isn’t. This stuff can really mess with a shooter if you begin even thinking about these things on the court.
 

reggiecleveland

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The CEBL. Canada's summer pro-league is a FIBA league. They were careful signing players who have never played with the ball, at least if 3pt shooting was their main skill. Their masin skill but have found just about everybody figures it out in a few weeks.
 

reggiecleveland

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The Molten BG5000 is leather from everything I can glean from the web.
https://www.molten.co.jp/sports/en/basketball/bg5000/
Yeah but there is cheaper model that is is the go to practice ball in much of Canada, and I hear europe. Big adjustment is the panels. My son who began in baseball finds the extra panels helps him get a "4 seam" feel on the fiba ball more often. When he catches the ball for handouts he unconsciously rotates the ball to find a seam like a ss making a throw.
 

benhogan

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As one can imagine, LW4 is drawing interest from several playoff-bound teams (PHI, MIN, MIA, and DEN), including the Cs: Lonnie Walker IV draws interest from Celtics, four other teams: Report – NBC Sports Boston.

I think LW4 will be back in the NBA by the trade deadline. I hope it's with the Cs. They really do need another NBA-level guy so as to be able to give the core players enough rest.
Yea. We'll eventually like Jordan Walsh (like next year... maybe).

At the moment, he just isn't ready to physically handle WINGs defensively & he's adding no value offensively. I don't care about SSS efficiency #s at this point. Nobody guards him & the C's don't pass to him. He rarely gets offensive boards & when he does, he's scared. Further, he's adding zero energy when he plays.

Get LW4 back in town. Slap two 2nds + Springer for a 2nd from a team that has space (ie Detroit)
 

benhogan

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As one can imagine, LW4 is drawing interest from several playoff-bound teams (PHI, MIN, MIA, and DEN), including the Cs: Lonnie Walker IV draws interest from Celtics, four other teams: Report – NBC Sports Boston.

I think LW4 will be back in the NBA by the trade deadline. I hope it's with the Cs. They really do need another NBA-level guy so as to be able to give the core players enough rest.
Yea. We'll eventually like Jordan Walsh (like next year... maybe).

At the moment, he just isn't ready to physically handle WINGs defensively & he's adding no value offensively. I don't care about SSS efficiency #s at this point. Nobody guards him & the C's don't pass to him. He rarely gets offensive boards & when he does, he's scared. Further, he's adding zero energy when he plays.

Get LW4 back in town. Slap two 2nds + Springer for a 2nd from a team that has space (ie Detroit)
 

lovegtm

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...
Get LW4 back in town. Slap two 2nds + Springer for a 2nd from a team that has space (ie Detroit)
Boston could also do something like trade Boston's 1st this year in exchange for Detroit's 2nd it has from Toronto, along with Springer.

Detroit gets to move up a few places in the draft, and Boston ends up with two quite good 2nds (Wash and Tor). Detroit has no problem with the salary scale of 1st rounders, whereas it's material for the Celtics.
 

LA_33

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Boston could also do something like trade Boston's 1st this year in exchange for Detroit's 2nd it has from Toronto, along with Springer.

Detroit gets to move up a few places in the draft, and Boston ends up with two quite good 2nds (Wash and Tor). Detroit has no problem with the salary scale of 1st rounders, whereas it's material for the Celtics.
In terms of that specific example, I doubt Detroit will break up the $14m in cap space they were able to create to take on a $4m salary, unless it’s very last minute and the best they can do with the bulk of that space is taking on someone under $10m who leaves space for Springer.

Boston probably isn’t going to want to wait on that happening, however, paying someone else a slightly high price to have more certainty that they can get out of Springer’s money (and the multiples of tax) is likely worth it to them.
 

lovegtm

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In terms of that specific example, I doubt Detroit will break up the $14m in cap space they were able to create to take on a $4m salary, unless it’s very last minute and the best they can do with the bulk of that space is taking on someone under $10m who leaves space for Springer.

Boston probably isn’t going to want to wait on that happening, however, paying someone else a slightly high price to have more certainty that they can get out of Springer’s money (and the multiples of tax) is likely worth it to them.
Yeah, that's fair. I haven't looked around the league yet, but $4M is dumpable. I do think that Boston trading out of its 1st for 1 or more decent 2nds is a likely deal structure, since I don't think they're happy about the contract they are locked into with Scheierman now.
 

benhogan

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In terms of that specific example, I doubt Detroit will break up the $14m in cap space they were able to create to take on a $4m salary, unless it’s very last minute and the best they can do with the bulk of that space is taking on someone under $10m who leaves space for Springer.

Boston probably isn’t going to want to wait on that happening, however, paying someone else a slightly high price to have more certainty that they can get out of Springer’s money (and the multiples of tax) is likely worth it to them.
Yeah, I just threw Detroit into the mix as a proxy since they have space. I suspect they have Play-In dreams that come before taking salary/picks as they search for the final piece to mesh with Tobias Harris & Beef Stew.

I like @lovegtm 's idea of Boston using its late First for a high Second as a sweetener to unload Springer.

2nds will help with cap pruning this summer