He made a few nice plays, but overall I was unimpressed. He played traffic cone on Tatum and Brown at least once each. Tatum had 32 on 21 shots and did everything but sell coffee tonight.
Celtics/Sixers First Round Thread
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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I get why we did it but that Thybulle trade is looking pretty crummy. Not only did we pass up a solid role player in Thybulle but we also passed up Brandon Clarke. All for a bricklayer guard who isn’t long for this league and the #30 pick this year.
This was my first thought as well, though I felt kinda bad about thinking it...
Let him recover on the labor and deliver ward and hopefully he’s back for round 2.
I'm not sure Clarke would be able to find a ton of playing time on this team long-term or short: he's really undersized for a big. The Thybulle trade hurts, but Philly has some draft trades of its own with us they'd like back. Welcome to drafting...
That's what I thought re Thybulle, but then I checked and he did a great individual job on Tatum, statistically.
Losing Hayward sucks, and the Sixers won't turn it over so much, but the Celtics have a lot of room to improve in terms of just hitting open shots. The confidence they have in TL and Kanter is also useful: Theis is going out there and just exhausting himself fighting with Embiid, and it's ok for him to give that full effort.
Kemba looks good physically, so I expect to see some of those games where he just hits a lot of pullup 3s and gets Philly out of their comfort zone.
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With Romeo's wrist issue, the next player up should be Granite, right?
Also, it would never happen but it would be cool if we got a Javonte Green game where he slices up the 6ers with Embiid off the court. That seemed to work today and the Cs seemed to be attacking the basket overall in the second half.
Also, it would never happen but it would be cool if we got a Javonte Green game where he slices up the 6ers with Embiid off the court. That seemed to work today and the Cs seemed to be attacking the basket overall in the second half.
Probably a Granite/Semi mix.
Ironically, the big situation is mostly fine right now. They have 3 guys that they’re comfortable with (4 if they use Grant in the Horford at C minutes), and they did a good job making Embiid work to the point that he was gassed by the 4th.
The problem is that they have 192 wing/guard minutes and only 5 guys they really like giving those to (the starters+Smart and Wanamaker).
I imagine you’ll see Tatum and Brown for 40 each and Kemba for 36. Throw in 38 for Smart and that still leaves 38 for Brad+Semi.
I don't see how they can find much time for Langford or JaVonte, unfortunately: the spacing is already boned with Embiid sitting under the rim, and now you add another non-shooter to that and it'll be a mess.
Agreed. For all of the good things Kemba did in Game 1, he didn't look comfortable from 3-point range. That's the missing piece for him.
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Watching more of the highlights again: having Horford and Harris on the floor is just brutal for Philadelphia. Brown in particular can really target their lack of speed. Everyone focuses so much on the matchup issue Embiid poses, but the Celtics wings+Kemba are a real problem for Philly's overall personnel, particularly with Kemba having his burst back.
Smart was 0-5 from the field with 1 board, 1 assist and 2 steals in 32 minutes last night. He affected a lot of play with high intensity defense that doesn’t show up in the box score though.
With Hayward presumably out for a period of time, Smart is likely to see increased minutes and will need to up his offensive game going forward. I have no doubt that Smart is up to the task and hope he chooses his shots carefully and primarily plays the role of facilitator. I’m good with him taking open threes and driving to the bucket from time tot time but do not want to see a bunch of contested shots with lots of time on the shot clock.
With Hayward presumably out for a period of time, Smart is likely to see increased minutes and will need to up his offensive game going forward. I have no doubt that Smart is up to the task and hope he chooses his shots carefully and primarily plays the role of facilitator. I’m good with him taking open threes and driving to the bucket from time tot time but do not want to see a bunch of contested shots with lots of time on the shot clock.
Yeah the matchup problem conversation with Embiid is interesting copy. It takes a bit of work to unpack how badly losing Simmons exposes the Philly D, but it's right there.
He did a good job drawing fouls on Embiid. If he can play 36-39 minutes at high intensity, hit some 3s, and stay under control offensively, I think we'll be pretty happy with the results.
Thybulle is a good defender but he doesn't strike me as a great one. He's really good at fighting through or around screens and has great hands - which of course is great in the current iteration of the league - but from my limited minutes looks like he struggles in on-the-ball defense, which is also important, particularly given the lack of wing defenders.
(Note, here's a description of Tybulle's and Richardson's defense from a Philly writer: "And that underscored a point I've brought up several times over the last week: none of Philadelphia's top remaining defenders are true lockdown wing guys, or really anything close. Thybulle and Richardson are too jittery against guys who are capable of blending tempo, transitioning from a move to a counter-move, and finishing from odd angles. The gambling and reaching they do gets exposed in longer stretches against star-level players, and when they have to be the head of the snake defensively.")
As for Brandon Clarke, he's a good player but not only isn't he getting real minutes on this team (as mentioned above) but in the limited minutes I've seen he strikes more as a good 3+D guy than a wing that DA likes. Now don't get me wrong - I've said many times before that good 3+D guys are really important and valuable in this league but I think Langford is a better creator and finisher inside and thus to me has a higher upside (plus a lower floor particularly if he doesn't figure out his shot but hey that's okay). In again the limited minutes I've seen of MEM, Clarke really benefits from playing next to Morant and it's great that he can stick shots but I think it's defensible for DA to evaluate Romeo higher than Clarke. YMMV.
Not to mention that Clarke is a 6'8 "big" with an 8'7" standing reach. He's functionally smaller than Grant Williams, and only slightly bigger than Jaylen Brown. I don't think passing on him was a big deal at all, given the Celtics' needs and roster composition.
Agree. I don’t think we will see another 0 FG% performance from Smart. With Hayward in the lineup the Celtics could manage through that. With Hayward out the Celtics will need at least a handful of points from Smart. I have full confidence that Smart will step up.
Can we mention in a non-game-thread that the Sixers most crucial possession involved running a play for an Embiid 3pt attempt? That's crazy, right?
It looked like the play was for JRich, but he didn't quite free up. So the pass into Embiid was basically to beat the 5 seconds, and he was supposed to swing it to one of the shooters but hero balled it instead.
That's what I see too fwiw.
Don't get me wrong, rookie Thybulle is clearly a good defender who will get better. His length disrupts both passing lanes and dribblers. He's a thief.
But his on ball instincts just don't come close to the hype that surrounds him. He made Tatum work, but he looked like he was on skates multiple times last night. Hell, ESPN did a "here's Thybulle on skates again" montage late night. Watching the game was like layup lines at times. Thybulle was hardly the problem, as Al, Joel, Harris, and JRich looked even worse (except for that one God awful GH sequence against Al). But he wasn't a solution either.
I believe lovegtm when he says that the numbers support Thybulle as good last night. The eyeballs lie. But I doubt that any footage from game 1 is on MTs highlight reel.
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Also looked to me that the incredible defensive intensity of that first 8 mins would have strangled Philly had they not had a horseshoe up their ass. I was really worried that they were working their ass of playing really great D and still seeing philly get results. That had to be disheartening. But after a win....CBS can fire up the film and point say "They wont do that again."
Later it was Followed up by another really good defensive stretch (beginning of the 4th I think??) when they built the final lead. Maybe Brad knows that no team can keep that up for 48 mins. But give him 15 of all out intensity.
And while I love the game Theis gave us......he needs to hit the 3 when he has 15 feet! between him and his defender.
Later it was Followed up by another really good defensive stretch (beginning of the 4th I think??) when they built the final lead. Maybe Brad knows that no team can keep that up for 48 mins. But give him 15 of all out intensity.
And while I love the game Theis gave us......he needs to hit the 3 when he has 15 feet! between him and his defender.
I’m good with Theis taking some of those shots, but the more in-rhythm counter is to target the weaker defender out of Kemba/JT/Jaylen’s man and re-screen until you get an open pull-up 3 or walk-in midranger for Kemba. There are a lot of ways to attack a perimeter 2-on-1 when the center just camps under the rim.
Also, Smart is now 8-44 since the Bucks game, you’d have to think some correction will come soon. And it will be needed with Hayward missing some time.
I wonder if they consider starting Grant, he looked pretty good in his short stint last night.
I wonder if they consider starting Grant, he looked pretty good in his short stint last night.
People often talk about how deep the Celtics are, but I just don't really see it. Once we get past the top 6-7 players, the bottom end of the bench is pretty weak - especially when it comes to the offensive end. With Hayward out, there's a huge drop off in the offensive contribution we can get from Semi or GWilliams. Of course, there is always going to be a big drop off from an All-Star caliber starter to a bench player. But, I feel like the offensive limitations from the Celtics bench is below what you typically see in the league.
I mean, do people really say they are that deep? They are deep with top end talent, but pretty much everyone knows the lack of punch off the bench is the weak point of the team.
The bench is fine if everyone is healthy, because the starters are staggered and so all of the scoring. But if someone goes down, it gets more problematic of course.
I guess I’m more Thybullish on him than you guys...
(ducks)
I don’t see another Bruce Bowen here but I see a 10 year career as the primary wing defender off the bench. Hopefully we can get lucky with #30 because Edwards looks like a complete waste.
Do they? I'm getting push notifications for articles titled "Hayward injury makes thin Celtics rotation even thinner" and things like that.
So the Celtics have a shooting guard who can hold a multiple all star big to 8 points and a minus 18. They have a superstar bucket machine who also can be the best defender on the court, at age 22. It's unfortunate that Hayward is hurt again, but Brown and Tatum are more than capable of making up for his offense.
This team will go as far as the two Jays take them in these playoffs. If Hayward can't go, they lose some versatility, but they can stretch Brown and Tatum for a few more minutes, and play Semi for 15 minutes per game. He's obviously one dimensional, but is hitting 38% of this threes, and plays solid defense. They will have to use Brown more to generate offense, which is fine with me.
A big key to this first playoff win was the Celtics' aggressiveness in getting into the bonus early in the 4th. Playing through Brown and Tatum gets you fouls, where GH doesn't.
This team will go as far as the two Jays take them in these playoffs. If Hayward can't go, they lose some versatility, but they can stretch Brown and Tatum for a few more minutes, and play Semi for 15 minutes per game. He's obviously one dimensional, but is hitting 38% of this threes, and plays solid defense. They will have to use Brown more to generate offense, which is fine with me.
A big key to this first playoff win was the Celtics' aggressiveness in getting into the bonus early in the 4th. Playing through Brown and Tatum gets you fouls, where GH doesn't.
I think they do. Maybe it's homerism, but a number of the media talk about the Celtics being very deep and deeper than other teams.
As mentioned by others, the Celtics are very deep in terms of "number of players who could be All-Stars", and shallow in terms of "guys after the 7th man".
I think Brad Wanamaker is fairly underrated in terms of his ability to space the floor, attack closeouts, and play team/individual defense. He'd see a lot of time in place of Hayward against Toronto, I think. The issue is that Philly's size might make them have to go Grant/Semi a lot rather than just playing Wanamaker for 30 mins.
It's a little hard to evaluate as he is older than a lot of other players out of the draft, but I think he looks like a better player than Grant Williams. I know Grant seems like a really nice person, and he plays Settlers of Catan and has an interesting personality, but I think on the court Grant has been a disappointment. Does he do some little things well? Of course. But, productive players do little things and at least some bigger things. Maybe that'll look different in a year, but I have been disappointed with GW's production this season.
Well, they came pretty close to having four 20 ppg scorers so that's one measure of depth. They also have six legit NBA starters so that's also depth. As for the rest of the bench - well, there's not much money left over for the bench so I'm not sure what more people want. I mean given the lack of available minutes and the lack of money, how many true NBA scorers are going to sign with the Cs?
I guess I am more (car)Zen w.r.t Edwards. He's 5'11" and given the dilution of talent in the NCAA, hasn't had to play against the length and athleticism of the NBA. He also doesn't get NBA minutes to figure things out since he's on a championship level team.
He's going to take time to develop. He does, after all, have a NBA-level skill. Hopefully next season, he'll show progress. Until then, cautiously optimistic.
We should be fine scoring wise as long as Kemba can play at high level. If his knee starts giving him issues, that’s likely a wrap.
The starter depth is good: Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Kemba, and Smart are a difficult matchup for many teams. If one of them is hurt or having an off night, the others can often step up. The Celtics don't have the best player on the floor against Philly, but they likely have the 2nd through 5th or 6th best players. I think that is what people mean when they say the C's are deeper than other teams.
The bench depth is a known problem from a scoring perspective.
The lack of depth is just frustratingly available a bit into the future. Langford +2 years is the guy we'd like today. Waters +2 years will likely be the guy we wish Wannamaker was now - (dependable with a bit more athleticism, at least in my eyes). Edwards, Semi (barring a significant uptick in what they deliver) aren't what we had hoped - though I suppose Edwards could click into the shooter his history shows he is capable of being. Green is an uber athlete - but the NBA has lots of them, and I don't think he's going to get the minutes on the court to get his game to the next place. I still don't know what to make of Fall, but I don't expect Poirer to be back, so maybe Fall develops into something useful when in pratice with the team next year.
I think the biggest hole is in the 3 & D role that Semi hasn't taken enough ownership of. Grant is still carving out a role for himself - he needs that outside shot during games. I'm not sure that Grant is going to be able to provide more than solid team based D either.
They are tantalizingly close to having enough behind the top 6-7.
I think the biggest hole is in the 3 & D role that Semi hasn't taken enough ownership of. Grant is still carving out a role for himself - he needs that outside shot during games. I'm not sure that Grant is going to be able to provide more than solid team based D either.
They are tantalizingly close to having enough behind the top 6-7.
Don't get me wrong. He'll be a good 3 and D guy for 10 years absolutely. That's valuable.
Among the (mostly national) people I read/listen to, the perception is that the Celtics 1-6 (starters plus Smart) is great, but their bench is weak after that. Toronto's the team generally cited as the best depth in the conference.
Re: Thybulle, he's absolutely exploitable in man-defense. The Celtics even stopped throwing screeners at him in the second half last night, presumably because he's great at disrupting them, but doesn't quite have the burst to keep up with the Jayson's arsenal or Jaylen's first step. He'll continue to improve- he's a rookie coming off of playing zone fat Washington or four years- but it's something to look for in this series. It was one of the reasons some were skeptical that his historic stock numbers at Washington wouldn't translate; he's great at getting in passing lanes and anticipating, so excelled at manning the top of the zone, but his straight man defense is a work in progress. I wouldn't mind seeing Tatum continue to try to punish him with his size advantage. He missed a 19 foot fadeaway after bumping Thybulle off of him with his shoulder last night, but if he gets a bit deeper position there, that's an easy 16 footer for him.
Re: Thybulle, he's absolutely exploitable in man-defense. The Celtics even stopped throwing screeners at him in the second half last night, presumably because he's great at disrupting them, but doesn't quite have the burst to keep up with the Jayson's arsenal or Jaylen's first step. He'll continue to improve- he's a rookie coming off of playing zone fat Washington or four years- but it's something to look for in this series. It was one of the reasons some were skeptical that his historic stock numbers at Washington wouldn't translate; he's great at getting in passing lanes and anticipating, so excelled at manning the top of the zone, but his straight man defense is a work in progress. I wouldn't mind seeing Tatum continue to try to punish him with his size advantage. He missed a 19 foot fadeaway after bumping Thybulle off of him with his shoulder last night, but if he gets a bit deeper position there, that's an easy 16 footer for him.
That’s pretty much what I was saying, they have elite top end depth, arguably the best top 6 in the league. They just don’t have scorers off the bench, which is fine IMO, as long as all the starters are healthy.
Once Hayward goes down it puts a lot more pressure on the Jays, Kemba, and even Marcus to do almost all of the scoring.
Smart's versatility enables them to lose Kemba/Brown/Hayward without missing too much, and in fact makes them stronger in some ways with Smart on the court over those three (at this point there's no replacing Tatum if he goes down). It also gives them a razor thin margin for error. In case of another injury or foul trouble, they'll be stuck putting someone on the court at crunch time that they do not entirely trust on either offense or defense. I suspect that Wanamaker is next on the list, which means if someone (other than Smart) goes down they will be pretty small.
Hayward missing time doesn't kill them (at least not this round), it's the next thing that will kill them.
Hayward missing time doesn't kill them (at least not this round), it's the next thing that will kill them.
(In response to 128's comment): Are NBA players/coaches less accessible to the press now than in prior years? That might be the explanation.
Dr. Chao's* diagnosis was the GH sprain looked like a 7-10 day type of absence.
*I know for some on this board, Dr. Chao is verboten. Whatever past issues he's had (and they're well documented), I've found that he's generally pretty spot-on when he makes an online diagnosis. YMMV.
*I know for some on this board, Dr. Chao is verboten. Whatever past issues he's had (and they're well documented), I've found that he's generally pretty spot-on when he makes an online diagnosis. YMMV.
If Grant can become PJ Tucker, that's a nice hit late in the first. There will always be a place for a strong, tough, hard-nosed guy who can body bigger players and hit threes (if he can hit threes).
I think in this next draft I would like to see a wing version of Grant, as in a semi-less heralded or overlooked multi-year college player who just flat out produces but slips because they may have a lower ceiling or some other real or perceived flaws.
I loved the idea of last year's draft—big potential with the first pick, then the early-production type, followed by the one great skill type. Maybe it didn't pan out as planned but I like the approach.
I think in this next draft I would like to see a wing version of Grant, as in a semi-less heralded or overlooked multi-year college player who just flat out produces but slips because they may have a lower ceiling or some other real or perceived flaws.
I loved the idea of last year's draft—big potential with the first pick, then the early-production type, followed by the one great skill type. Maybe it didn't pan out as planned but I like the approach.
Dont forget that while none of us would classify Theis, Kanter or RWil as top end talent, they consistently "counter" (in effort and stats) the oppenents big guys.....who often are one of the oppositions 5 best players.
So while I agree that if we were lining up our 5 best talentwise JT, JB,KW, GH, MS.....before we get into the bench....or at least a few guys in we have Theis...a guy....then Kanter.....a guy...then RWil and true bench fodder.
So while I agree that if we were lining up our 5 best talentwise JT, JB,KW, GH, MS.....before we get into the bench....or at least a few guys in we have Theis...a guy....then Kanter.....a guy...then RWil and true bench fodder.
View: https://twitter.com/SIChrisMannix/status/1295757210799177729
Mannix says Hayward's still booted and on crutches putting no pressure on it as of this afternoon. Seems like it could be serious.
Mannix says Hayward's still booted and on crutches putting no pressure on it as of this afternoon. Seems like it could be serious.
True, but usually by now Woj, or the Celtics themselves, would have posted an update.
Yeah, if this is accurate, I think the best we can hope for is for him at some point in the second round. At the absolute best.
And even if that's true, there is baby watch to contend with.
Even minor sprains they want crutches for 2 days these days. My guess is he is out for a while, but keeping off it in the acute stage is the key.