Celtics vs 76ers, Round 2 Discussion

Deathofthebambino

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You said the same thing in the Hawks series game 5 and I showed there wasn't much of an opportunity to run. So let's see in this game how they "slowed it down, we got a 2 point lead with 3 min to go"

You know what, I'll even go back further to the entirety of the 4th quarter:
- 11:42 Harden misses a shot, Brogdon rebound 3 seconds later, Harris fouls him 4 seconds after that.
- 10:25 (yes Philly didn't get another offensive possession until then) shot clock violation. So the defense is set either way.
- 10:03 Niang misses a 3, Tatum rebound at 9:59, he passes to White who dunks it 2 seconds later
- 9:40 Harris turns it over out of bounds. Defense is set.
- 9:03 Embiid misses 3 footer, Tatum rebound is fouled 3 seconds later shooting.
- 8:42 Maxey misses a 3, TimeLord rebounds at 8:39, Tatum misses a layup 13 seconds later (maybe this was slow, but they had a layup...)
- 7:57 Harden makes a shot. Defense is set. Smart gets a shooting foul 10 seconds later.
- 7:28 Embiid misses 10 footer, Tatum rebound, Brogdon turns it over 5 seconds later
- 7:15 Embiid hits a 2. Celtics timeout. Smart hits a 3 on the other side of this timeout.
- 6:28 Sixers shut clock violation #2 of the quarter. Defense gets set. Jaylen hits a 3 on the other side of this.
- 5:33 Tatum blocks Niang's 3, Horford rebound 5 seconds later, Tatum with a two pointer 3 seconds later.
- 5:04 Horford blocks Embiid, gets control 2 seconds later, Jaylen misses a 3 12 seconds later (I guess they could have pushed more here?)
- 4:16 Tatum blocks Maxey, gets control 3 seconds later, Brogdon misses a floating jumper 14 seconds later. Should have pushed here... but wait, they got an offensive rebound and Horford got a basket so it doesnt matter.
- 3:38 Smart fouls Harden. Defense is set. Tatum gets a shooting foul at the other end, makes 1 of 2.
- 2:59 (hey we made it to 3 minutes left!!!!) Horford blocks Embiid, rebound controlled 3 seconds later, Marcus hits a 3 four seconds after.
- 2:26 Harden makes a 3. Defense is set. Oh and Brogdon makes a 3.
- 1:50 Harden makes a 2. Defense is set. Marcus misses a 3 as time expires on the shot clock yuck.
- 1:07 Harris misses a 2... but PJ tucker gets the rebound and 1. Defense is set. Marcus gets fouled at the other end and makes two free throws.
- 0.31 Horford blocks Embiid, Maxey rebounds, Harden gets a 2 with 16 seconds left.
- Celtics hold for final shot as they should and Marcus misses.

So I guess my question -- where in all of these possessions did the Celtics not push against a non-set defense? Seems to me like they had great defense for 90% of the quarter before allowing the 76ers to score on their final 4 possessions (due to two offensive rebounds.

I don't know how you could blame a lack of pushing the ball on this loss. Do you have anything to back up those claims? OT was very much the same.
It was wrong when you said after game 5, I responded to your post after you said that with these numbers and that was the end of the conversation:

Agreed that typically, you see more runouts after a miss, but it should NEVER preclude a team from pushing the pace even if the other team is making shots. Especially when it's so clear that when the C's are pushing the pace, they are scoring. Let's look at the second quarter after made baskets by Atlanta:

11:32
Bogdan Bogdanovic makes 24-foot three point jumper (Aaron Holiday assists)

TL got a dunk 12 seconds later

10:03
Saddiq Bey makes 27-foot three pointer (Onyeka Okongwu assists)

Marcus layup 9 seconds later

9:30
Bogdan Bogdanovic makes free throw 3 of 3


Horford gets a 3 12 seconds later

8:57
Saddiq Bey makes free throw 2 of 2


Tatum missed layup 16 seconds later

6:35
John Collins makes 28-foot three point jumper (Trae Young assists)

Jaylen makes a 3, 13 seconds later

6:00
Saddiq Bey makes two point shot


Brogdon driving layup 13 seconds later

4:41
De'Andre Hunter makes 17-foot pullup jump shot (Trae Young assists)


Brogdon driving layup 9 seconds later

3:55
Saddiq Bey makes driving layup (John Collins assists)


Brogdon missed a 3, 13 seconds later

2:57
Trae Young makes 16-foot driving floating jump shot


Tatum misses a 3, 19 seconds later

1:24
John Collins makes 8-foot two point shot (Clint Capela assists)


Jaylen misses a layup 19 seconds later

32.1
Trae Young makes step back jumpshot


Jaylen gets fouled 10 seconds later, 2 free throws (1/2)


That's every bucket that Atlanta made in that quarter, and every time they pushed the pace following it, and shot in less than 13 seconds, they scored. Every time they held the ball longer than 13 seconds, they missed. The C's outscored Atlanta 39-28 in that quarter. When the C's got the ball after a miss or ATL turnover, they scored in 12, 7, 7, 2, 5, 7, 4, and 7 seconds.


I mean, this is honestly so straightforward, it's unconscionable when they slow it down. Atlanta simply cannot run with this team.
Let me bold the important sentence there:

When the C's got the ball after a miss or ATL turnover, they scored in 12, 7, 7, 2, 5, 7, 4, and 7 seconds.


On Sunday, after the C's tied it up at 96, this is what happened:

Horford blocked Embiid, it takes 15 seconds, but JB then misses a 3.

Tatum blocked Maxey, it takes 15 seconds for Brogdon to miss a floater. (Tatum got the board, and hit Al for the dunk to give the C's a 2 point lead)

Harden makes 2 free throws, and 17 seconds later, Tatum gets fouled and goes to the line.

Horford blocks Embiid, they push it and Marcus steps into a fast break 3. 4 point lead for the C's.

Harden makes a shot, and the C's use 20 seconds but get a 3 this time from Brogdon, now they're up 5 with 2:04 left.

This is where I lose my shit:

Harden makes a shot, lead is down to 3. 22 seconds into the shot clock, Smart misses a 28 foot step back 3.

Then Philly comes down, misses, but Tucker gets the board, and a 3 point play the game is tied.

15 seconds later, Marcus gets fouled going to the hoop.

Harden makes the tying jumper with 16 seconds left, and of course, Marcus misses the buzzer beater on the other end.

In overtime, the C's jumped out to a 3 point overtime lead, which Philly cut to 1.

The next possession saw Tatum miss a 3 that came 23 seconds into the shot clock. C's got the offensive board, which 9 seconds later, Marcus promptly threw away to the other team.

The next possession after a Philly timeout, Horford misses a 3 that came 24 seconds into the shot clock.

Then Tatum made his 3 18 seconds after Embiid made his foul shots

Then Harden made his 3, and we waste 19 seconds to not even get a shot off.



Once again, this isn't just about pushing the pace off misses and turnovers, which should be automatic. As I pointed out above, the C's have been noticeably better when they push the pace after made baskets too. They just stop doing it at times, and it bites them.

And of course, we have the glaring noticeable absence of an ALL NBA player in virtually all of this, because they completely eliminate him from the game when they start taking 13+ seconds off the clock.
 

the moops

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Man, watching the Harden shot again, Embiid travels brutally before he passes off. Like, both pivot feet move twice.
I'm not so sure of this. He drags his pivot foot a little bit, but nothing that ever gets called.

As much as we can complain about Jaylen coming over to help, it was an incredible pass by Embiid, and an incredible gather and shoot by Harden.
 

chilidawg

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You said the same thing in the Hawks series game 5 and I showed there wasn't much of an opportunity to run. So let's see in this game how they "slowed it down, we got a 2 point lead with 3 min to go"

You know what, I'll even go back further to the entirety of the 4th quarter:
- 11:42 Harden misses a shot, Brogdon rebound 3 seconds later, Harris fouls him 4 seconds after that.
- 10:25 (yes Philly didn't get another offensive possession until then) shot clock violation. So the defense is set either way.
- 10:03 Niang misses a 3, Tatum rebound at 9:59, he passes to White who dunks it 2 seconds later
- 9:40 Harris turns it over out of bounds. Defense is set.
- 9:03 Embiid misses 3 footer, Tatum rebound is fouled 3 seconds later shooting.
- 8:42 Maxey misses a 3, TimeLord rebounds at 8:39, Tatum misses a layup 13 seconds later (maybe this was slow, but they had a layup...)
- 7:57 Harden makes a shot. Defense is set. Smart gets a shooting foul 10 seconds later.
- 7:28 Embiid misses 10 footer, Tatum rebound, Brogdon turns it over 5 seconds later
- 7:15 Embiid hits a 2. Celtics timeout. Smart hits a 3 on the other side of this timeout.
- 6:28 Sixers shut clock violation #2 of the quarter. Defense gets set. Jaylen hits a 3 on the other side of this.
- 5:33 Tatum blocks Niang's 3, Horford rebound 5 seconds later, Tatum with a two pointer 3 seconds later.
- 5:04 Horford blocks Embiid, gets control 2 seconds later, Jaylen misses a 3 12 seconds later (I guess they could have pushed more here?)
- 4:16 Tatum blocks Maxey, gets control 3 seconds later, Brogdon misses a floating jumper 14 seconds later. Should have pushed here... but wait, they got an offensive rebound and Horford got a basket so it doesnt matter.
- 3:38 Smart fouls Harden. Defense is set. Tatum gets a shooting foul at the other end, makes 1 of 2.
- 2:59 (hey we made it to 3 minutes left!!!!) Horford blocks Embiid, rebound controlled 3 seconds later, Marcus hits a 3 four seconds after.
- 2:26 Harden makes a 3. Defense is set. Oh and Brogdon makes a 3.
- 1:50 Harden makes a 2. Defense is set. Marcus misses a 3 as time expires on the shot clock yuck.
- 1:07 Harris misses a 2... but PJ tucker gets the rebound and 1. Defense is set. Marcus gets fouled at the other end and makes two free throws.
- 0.31 Horford blocks Embiid, Maxey rebounds, Harden gets a 2 with 16 seconds left.
- Celtics hold for final shot as they should and Marcus misses.

So I guess my question -- where in all of these possessions did the Celtics not push against a non-set defense? Seems to me like they had great defense for 90% of the quarter before allowing the 76ers to score on their final 4 possessions (due to two offensive rebounds.

I don't know how you could blame a lack of pushing the ball on this loss. Do you have anything to back up those claims? OT was very much the same.
Thanks for posting that. By my count that's 5/7 (including possessions with FTs as a make) when the defense is set, 6/9 when they push.

I've been agnostic on the calling the TO dogma, but we were actually pretty good when the defense is set.
 

Red Averages

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Once again, this isn't just about pushing the pace off misses and turnovers, which should be automatic. As I pointed out above, the C's have been noticeably better when they push the pace after made baskets too. They just stop doing it at times, and it bites them.

And of course, we have the glaring noticeable absence of an ALL NBA player in virtually all of this, because they completely eliminate him from the game when they start taking 13+ seconds off the clock.
Sorry. I thought you were advocating pushing the pace off of non-set defenses, which I’m in agreement with and believe they did successfully. I don’t really agree with pushing the pace on set defenses where it is going to be slower anyway (unless you want to take it into the paint and get swallowed up early). Set defenses turn more into matchup mismatches which you generally need to isolate, which require more time for P&Rs and the like. Sure if a look is there go for it, but I’m not really seeing any offenses around the league that successfully score within 6 seconds off of set defenses consistently, particularly in a game 4 fourth quarter.
 

k-factory

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This is a ‘growing pains’ team. Just have to accept that. Too tight tonight. And no one could rise to the challenge.
With any luck they play a bit looser next game.
But in all likelihood this feels like a next year scenario where coach Mazulla learns how to adjust, where Tatum figures out how to score in the first half despite adversity, where Brown hits his critical free throws and where Brogdon doesn’t brain cramp at the worst time.
 

Eddie Jurak

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This is a ‘growing pains’ team. Just have to accept that. Too tight tonight. And no one could rise to the challenge.
With any luck they play a bit looser next game.
But in all likelihood this feels like a next year scenario where coach Mazulla learns how to adjust, where Tatum figures out how to score in the first half despite adversity, where Brown hits his critical free throws and where Brogdon doesn’t brain cramp at the worst time.
This is a regressing team. Versus last year they got MORE talented and their level of play declined.
 

Cellar-Door

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Tonight was weird. Lot of bad stuff, but also a lot of it snowballed out of just bricking tons of good open shots.
 

128

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This is a ‘growing pains’ team. Just have to accept that. Too tight tonight. And no one could rise to the challenge.
With any luck they play a bit looser next game.
But in all likelihood this feels like a next year scenario where coach Mazulla learns how to adjust, where Tatum figures out how to score in the first half despite adversity, where Brown hits his critical free throws and where Brogdon doesn’t brain cramp at the worst time.
C's were a year away last season. No excuses this time.
 
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NomarsFool

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Make or miss league. As amazing as the Celtics' misses have been, Philly has just been really hitting their shots.

Embiid's defense has been a much bigger factor than I think we expected.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yup. This core has played a million freaking playoff games together and still seeing the same mistakes.
yeah that's the thing to me about the blame Mazzulla thing... he's not great, he's a rookie head coach. But all these problems came up last year, and the year before, and the year before that.
I kind of feel like unless they go on a real heater, you have to think about moving one of the 3 main guys.... and it's probably got to be Smart. Given the depth at guard you don't even have to move him for another PG.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think there will be a significant move in the offseason. Don't know what it will be, but this group just doesn't play up to what it should. I'm not sure how much longer they can just keep running it back.

I had hopes that the loss last year would have a positive effect on the team and the stars, but that's not in evidence.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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This is a regressing team. Versus last year they got MORE talented and their level of play declined.
Are they actually more talented with Rob looking forever like a shell of himself and Grant shitting down his leg all year? Yes they added Brogdon and White leveled up but there was major regression for two main pieces, albeit for two completely different reasons.
 

Cellar-Door

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This is a regressing team. Versus last year they got MORE talented and their level of play declined.
I'm not sure they are actually regressing... they were not that great last year either.

This point last year they were down 3-2 to a less talented team than the one they're facing now.

They pulled it out then faced a hospital version of the Heat... barely squeaked by them.

Then the finals they played drop on their way to a casual beating by Golden State as the national media screamed that Ime was way over his head.
 

jezza1918

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yeah that's the thing to me about the blame Mazzulla thing... he's not great, he's a rookie head coach. But all these problems came up last year, and the year before, and the year before that.
I kind of feel like unless they go on a real heater, you have to think about moving one of the 3 main guys.... and it's probably got to be Smart. Given the depth at guard you don't even have to move him for another PG.
I think lack of coaching consistency plays into it on some minor level…this core is now in year 3 (I count the bubble year as the last of the walker/Hayward/even kyrie era and 20/21 as the first year brown/Tatum really took over), and are on their third coach. But agree, assuming they don’t come back (large assumption by the way…doc rivers after all), they can’t just run it back either. Id ride Tatum/brown another few years, so smart it is?
 

8slim

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Why can’t they run it back next year? Isn’t there a better chance of this core finally getting it than rebuilding and winning?
 

BaseballJones

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Friendly reminder that Tatum still hasn’t reached the age that Jordan, Steph, and LeBron were when they won their first titles.

Aside from talent, it takes a certain amount of maturity and leadership to get it done. Maybe he’s just not QUITE there yet.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Why can’t they run it back next year? Isn’t there a better chance of this core finally getting it than rebuilding and winning?
I agree with this. As frustrating as this team is, the odds of building a better team through a rebuild are considerably worse.

I think you re-sign Brown and hope that somehow Tatum develops more of a killer mentality as he ages, or you trade Brown down the road for someone who has that.
 

jezza1918

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I wouldn’t view trading smart for something (not really sure what they could get and I’m about to pass out) as rebuilding. I also wonder if moving him would create room for Tatum to become a more vocal leader as he moves closer to his peak ages?
 

Auger34

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Friendly reminder that Tatum still hasn’t reached the age that Jordan, Steph, and LeBron were when they won their first titles.
This gets thrown around a lot but does it matter? Isn’t it more about their experience in the NBA? I just don’t get why 26 is some magic number or matters more than NBA years
 

McBride11

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What is with JB? He has started hot in several games then disappeared. Are the 6ers adjusting coverage? Cs changing offense?
I mean clearly his ft down the stretch were um something, but he had basically no looks in 2q and 3q.
 

BaseballJones

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This gets thrown around a lot but does it matter? Isn’t it more about their experience in the NBA? I just don’t get why 26 is some magic number or matters more than NBA years
It’s not a “magic” number. It’s just that it seems, like I said, that it takes a certain amount of maturity and leadership for even the greats to get over that last hump. Maybe Tatum is just in that same boat.
 

Auger34

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It’s not a “magic” number. It’s just that it seems, like I said, that it takes a certain amount of maturity and leadership for even the greats to get over that last hump. Maybe Tatum is just in that same boat.
Sorry, that came off more harsh towards you and I didn’t intend it that way. I just don’t think that stat matters that much when comparing it to players of previous eras. They came in later and were less experienced in the NBA by the time they got to 26.
 

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That’s not going to happen, and I apologize for the flippant response to Felix. I wish they had someone on the bench with gray hair to be Maxzulla’s consigliere and I hope they rectify it next year no matter how far they go.
And my response was a joke.
But I agreed from the start that someone like Frank Vogel would have been a great assistant to help Coach Joe.
 

Red Averages

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Good lord what is this thread? Taking about the off-season? Running it back? The hell? You guys speak of mental toughness and quit on the team when they are still in a great position to win it all.

The Celtics were down 3-2 to a better Bucks team last year and won the series. They are favored by a point on Thursday and would be meaningful favorites in a game 7 Saturday.

Backs against the wall, this team has shown they can play lock down defense and dominate when they shoot (even “fine” instead of “good” or “great”). I don’t know how this series is possibly over.
 

Bernard Gilkey baby

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We need Brad Stevens to coach the rest of the playoffs. I think you just have him call the plays from the booth or whatever.
 

Auger34

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Lately I've been regretting that I ever started this trend. Anybody else feel like asking Tatum what he's smiling about?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUzbtu-fvpA&ab_channel=NBA
I know nothing about his routine or even if this matters…but Mark Jones brought it up on the Game 4 telecast and it’s kind of stuck in my mind. Should someone tell Tatum to knock it off with the weight lifting sessions before the game?

5 games in this series and in 4 of them he’s started off dreadfully. Like can’t hit the broad side of a barn type stuff.


Who knows if it matters but I know that’s what I think of when he’s bricking jumpers in the first quarter
 

Ale Xander

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Good lord what is this thread? Taking about the off-season? Running it back? The hell? You guys speak of mental toughness and quit on the team when they are still in a great position to win it all.

The Celtics were down 3-2 to a better Bucks team last year and won the series. They are favored by a point on Thursday and would be meaningful favorites in a game 7 Saturday.

Backs against the wall, this team has shown they can play lock down defense and dominate when they shoot (even “fine” instead of “good” or “great”). I don’t know how this series is possibly over.
Agree with what you said but game 7 would be on Sunday.
 

Humphrey

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Whatever happens in this or subsequent series, have to take a look at the 5 spot in 23-24.

A year older Al and a fragile TL aren't a good combo going forward. Have to pull the plug on one of them.
 

Cellar-Door

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We need Brad Stevens to coach the rest of the playoffs. I think you just have him call the plays from the booth or whatever.
he coached this team 2 years ago... they did the exact same shit to the point where he took a new job. The did this shit last year with Ime.... the coaching is not the major problem with this team
 

luckiestman

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he coached this team 2 years ago... they did the exact same shit to the point where he took a new job. The did this shit last year with Ime.... the coaching is not the major problem with this team
Why don't you check the roster on that one? Also, Tatum and Brown are better now.
 

Ed Hillel

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Rob falling off a cliff is a big problem. It’s possible he’s still essentially rehabbing because he never really turned it on for long stretches and this is part of the healing/strengthening process, but if this is what we get moving forward the team’s ceiling has taken a major blow. He was the real third piece.
 

luckiestman

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Rob falling off a cliff is a big problem. It’s possible he’s still essentially rehabbing because he never really turned it on for long stretches and this is part of the healing/strengthening process, but if this is what we get moving forward the team’s ceiling has taken a major blow. He was the real third piece.
Rob isn’t being used like he was before he got hurt in that Wolves game. Is that because he can’t or what?
 

Cellar-Door

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Why don't you check the roster on that one? Also, Tatum and Brown are better now.
i mean... did it change the fundamental nature of the team?... yeah i think Stevens is a better coach than Joe, Joe is a first time head coach and they always struggle and Brad was one of the best coaches in the league... i also think that pretending that coaching is what's wrong with this team is self-delusion. This is the exact same thing this team did last year, and 2 years ago, hell 3 years ago. When a group of players the core of whom (Tatum/Brown/Smart) are the same do the same thing again and again, and do it under 3 coaches... it's not the coaches.

Could Joe do things better... sure. But he didn't brick all the open 3s, he didn't make guys commit idiotic fouls, he can't jump into their body and make them make smart decisions, he can't get in there and make their free throws for them.
I'd like to see different coverages of the Embiid/Harden two man game... it doesn't matter when the guys in the action don't communicate, it doesn't matter when your best players play like crap. It doesn't matter when your do everything defensive roamer isn't playing at the same level anymore (he looks tentative)

His worst game was game 4, he struggled early and at the end made a key error.... and yet he did some decent stuff, and they win that game if they make their FTs, they likely at worst go to OT if their All-NBA guard uses his brain....

My point isn't that Joe is good, it's that he's mostly irrelevant and people are hyper-focusing on him to avoid taking a hard look at the players, because everyone loves to think that their incredibly talented players are held back by the moron coach, rather than accepting that while coaching helps on the margins, the majority of what makes you win or lose is the execution by the players.
 

luckiestman

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Joe is not good but the players are good enough to overcome it, I hope.

Brad is much better than Joe but maybe Smart & Jays were sick of him or he was sick of them.

The year they got toasted by the 3 Amigo Nets, Pritchard and Kemba were top 6 in minutes.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Rob falling off a cliff is a big problem. It’s possible he’s still essentially rehabbing because he never really turned it on for long stretches and this is part of the healing/strengthening process, but if this is what we get moving forward the team’s ceiling has taken a major blow. He was the real third piece.
I've been saying it all year. When TL is healthy and on, this is a great team. When TL isn't 100% this is only a good team. Horford killed us tonight with this 3-point shooting.
 

Euclis20

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I've been saying it all year. When TL is healthy and on, this is a great team. When TL isn't 100% this is only a good team. Horford killed us tonight with this 3-point shooting.
The problem is, I think this is as healthy as he can ever hope to be in May. Available and playing an effective (if not game-changing) 20+ minutes. If this isn't good enough, they need to look elsewhere in the future, Rob ain't that 3rd guy.
 

Cellar-Door

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I've been saying it all year. When TL is healthy and on, this is a great team. When TL isn't 100% this is only a good team. Horford killed us tonight with this 3-point shooting.
The key to our success against PHI has generally been Horford, he's the only guy who really defends Embiid decently and that they respect from 3... problem is when he goes 0-7 we're basically screwed, we both need those points and need the threat to keep the defense honestly.

TL isn't good at covering Embiid, and Embiid straight up ignores him as an offensive threat... we got a couple lobs out of it, but they'll give us those, because it's not a volume threat and the advantge of Embiid just getting into every drive we try because TL is no threat outside 5 feet is huge for their D.

He's both not the same guy, and this is one of his worst matchups anyway.
 

NomarsFool

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What happened to the TL lob play? That seemed to be good for 8-10 points regularly in the regular season and also helped other guys get to the rim. Can they not do it against Embiid? Can TL not get up high enough right now? I feel like they have tried 1-2x each game, and I can’t tell if the passes just suck or if Rob can’t do it or his head is in a fog.

Brogdon seems to be missing a lot of shots lately, Brown can’t hit a free throw, and one of the best 3P shooters in the NBA all of a sudden can’t hit the side of the barn.

This could all turn around quickly, though. Maybe a longer shoot around before the next game?
 

lexrageorge

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18,099
Why can’t they run it back next year? Isn’t there a better chance of this core finally getting it than rebuilding and winning?
If they lose to the Sixers, then it proves that the roster needs improvement. And it's difficult to see how they could improve this roster, as the all-to-brief vintage Rob Williams is not coming back through that door and they don't have the assets to address that. Of course, they were down 3-2 to the Bucks last year, so I will hold off on any further post-mortems until necessary.